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Author Topic: BAMA - Heathkit Manuals  (Read 9802 times)
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K1AEE
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« on: December 15, 2008, 11:06:59 AM »

Just received the email below from the hallicrafters reflector:

Some ham has bought the rights to ALL heath manuals and Bama has now taken
any free Heath`s off their website.!



Checked it out on BAMA and the mirror site also - All Heath Manuals are gone!

73,

Fred
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John K5PRO
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« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2008, 01:27:27 PM »

How can it be? Travisty!
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Ed/KB1HYS
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« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2008, 01:33:32 PM »

WTF??  I mean does he/she really think they can make enough money to justify the expense? 

It has to be that someone thinks they can make a buck selling "Heath" manuals online somewhere. 

I hope they choke... Angry
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73 de Ed/KB1HYS
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 "I've spent three quarters of my life trying to figure out how to do a $50 job for $.50, the rest I spent trying to come up with the $0.50" - D. Gingery
Carl WA1KPD
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« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2008, 02:04:26 PM »

WTF??  I mean does he/she really think they can make enough money to justify the expense? 

It has to be that someone thinks they can make a buck selling "Heath" manuals online somewhere. 

I hope they choke... Angry

Claims to have rights to manuals
http://www.tech-systems-labs.com/pdf-files/Agreement.pdf. Note- no list of what the purchased assets are.

Shuts down the availability of old manuals so he can make money.

I put him in the same category as Radiomart. Not interested in furthering the hobbby. Interested in lining his pockets
Carl
/KPD
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W1EUJ
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« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2008, 02:17:44 PM »

It cost him $5000 dollars.
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W1AC
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« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2008, 03:00:33 PM »

It cost him $5000 dollars.

He's taking a big chance.

Consider:

  • Existing original manuals can still be sold.
  • He'll have to hit a price point low enough that it doesn't drive buyers into the gray market.
  • Although epay will probably honor DMCA prohibitions, there's no way to prohibit "Manual wanted" ads and private, offline, copying deals.
  • The manuals could be sold from a foreign country that doesn't honor U.S. copyright law.
  • Some early Heath manuals are probably public domain already. IANALB, I think the copyright runs for 54 years.

He's got ~20 years or less to recoup his costs, and I can't help but wonder how "deep" the demand pool is. At best, it's a break even proposition when you count postage, labor, advertising, etc. I don't have a financial calculator handy, so I'll ask someone else to figure the future value of 5k at <current interest rate>. He'll have to match that number just to break even.

73,

Bill W1AC
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Ed/KB1HYS
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« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2008, 03:03:10 PM »

So did the Benton Harbor folks just not enforce their copyrights?  How was it that BAMA and others were able to post them online previously.

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73 de Ed/KB1HYS
Happiness is Hot Tubes, Cold 807's, and warm room filling AM Sound.
 "I've spent three quarters of my life trying to figure out how to do a $50 job for $.50, the rest I spent trying to come up with the $0.50" - D. Gingery
Carl WA1KPD
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« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2008, 03:06:29 PM »

So did the Benton Harbor folks just not enforce their copyrights?  How was it that BAMA and others were able to post them online previously.



I think his heavy handed tactics will backfire and am willing to bet that a request for a manual will fill ones email with .pdfs.

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W1RKW
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« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2008, 03:14:45 PM »

Well, I have a few heath manuals. I have no problem copying them for those who need them.

Hope this guy chokes on his manuals.
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Bob
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Tom WA3KLR
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« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2008, 03:19:35 PM »

His original paper manuals do cost money of course, as anyone's would.

He is offering schematics only for free (what he has).  
From the schematic selection table:

"NOTE these will be all converted to free download a few at a time. ASAP and new ones will be added from  master disk"

http://www.tech-systems-labs.com/heath_schematic.htm

Even though he has copyright rights, copyrights do expire.

I just downloaded an AT-1 schematic.
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73 de Tom WA3KLR  AMI # 77   Amplitude Modulation - a force Now and for the Future!
WA1GFZ
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« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2008, 04:49:15 PM »

WC Fields was right. I bet he never makes his money back.
I have a few also and glad to share.
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Jim, W5JO
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« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2008, 04:50:08 PM »

Go to the main site to read other interesting information.

http://www.tech-systems-labs.com/

Then click on Heath Manuals.  On the new page is where you purchase the manuals.  There is a link in green to follow to Data Pro for purchase.  I don't understand why he would buy those manual rights.  Copyright expiration is different today than in the 60's.  I don't remember the exact time the law was changed, but the rights last longer today and I don't know if it was applied retroactive.
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Pete, WA2CWA
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« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2008, 05:44:10 PM »

Go to the main site to read other interesting information.

http://www.tech-systems-labs.com/

Then click on Heath Manuals.  On the new page is where you purchase the manuals.  There is a link in green to follow to Data Pro for purchase.  I don't understand why he would buy those manual rights.  Copyright expiration is different today than in the 60's.  I don't remember the exact time the law was changed, but the rights last longer today and I don't know if it was applied retroactive.

This guy, http://www.tech-systems-labs.com/, has nothing to do with the purchase of Heathkit's Legacy Manual Duplication and Distribution. The buyer of these rights and privileges is Data Professionals of Pleasanton, CA

Let's all get the story straight. If you have original manuals to sell, this change in ownership does not affect you.
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Jim, W5JO
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« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2008, 06:02:41 PM »

Someone else I know who had manual sales says that there are two people who claimed rights to the manuals.  So which did this guy buy Pete?  And beside that, they have been treated as public property for so long it may be hard to enforce.  One time someone tried to enforce the copyright against the other person in the manual business and a copyright lawyer told him to ignore it.  He did for years and nothing happened.

Now I just wonder if this guy bought a pig in a poke?
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KA8WTK
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« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2008, 06:27:35 PM »

MODS.DK still has their entire list of Heathkit manuals on line.

Bill

www.mods.dk/
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Bill KA8WTK
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« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2008, 08:42:15 PM »

Someone else I know who had manual sales says that there are two people who claimed rights to the manuals.  So which did this guy buy Pete?  And beside that, they have been treated as public property for so long it may be hard to enforce.  One time someone tried to enforce the copyright against the other person in the manual business and a copyright lawyer told him to ignore it.  He did for years and nothing happened.

Now I just wonder if this guy bought a pig in a poke?

Carl, in one of the above posts, provided the link to the Asset Purchase Agreement between buyer and seller. That should provide answers.

Heathkit back in the summer, listed their entire manual business on ebay. The first listing had a very limited description and one picture of just a pile of manuals. I suspect most, if not all of the bidders, really had no clue how much "stuff" they were bidding on. Bids went to a hair over $6K and didn't meet the reserve. The second time it was listed, probably a birdie whispered in their ear, they posted a number of pictures, including several aisle shots (aisles of 5 drawer file cabinets); I believe approximately 27 file cabinets; and listed a reserve of either $9K or $10K. Bids didn't come close. The 3rd time they listed it, I believe the reserve was dropped to $7.5K and bidding didn't come close either.

The Asset Purchase Agreement mentioned above clearly spells out former owner and new owner.
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WA1GFZ
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« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2008, 08:51:04 PM »

I hope the file cabinets were good quality. I bet there is very little demand for heath kit manuals outside of the ham community and a few audio fools.
I bet there are almost no Heath color TV sets left.
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Carl WA1KPD
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« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2008, 10:27:27 PM »


Carl, in one of the above posts, provided the link to the Asset Purchase Agreement between buyer and seller. That should provide answers.
The Asset Purchase Agreement mentioned above clearly spells out former owner and new owner.

Hey Pete,
I am not sure if you are addressing me or Jim (who you quoted) but I will take the bait   Smiley. I agree the PSA spells out the buyer and seller pretty clearly. But it does not spell out what was purchased other then:

"Seller shall sell, and Purchaser shall buy, all of Seller's right, title and interest in and to all of the assets and the business owned by Seller, related to the Seller's product line known as Heathkit's Legacy Manual Duplication and Distribution.
The Purchaser will be the sole authorized distributor for these assets with rights to assign and resell.'
"

OK he bought some assets with a high level description. But I don't see anything that says he purchased the copyrights..

He may have purchased those manuals and even the right to sell copies exclusively using the Heathkit logo and name. But does his purchase allow him to shut down other services? I don't know. I would expect the PSA to spell out that specific issue since it is important to his business model

All that being said there may be a market for new manuals. But why shut down old copies that were available for free?

Carl

A Capitalist in heart and at work!

/KPD


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« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2008, 12:20:21 AM »



Unless the copyrights were valid and current, he bought a bunch of file cabinets full of manuals and the right to duplicate and distribute them - presumably using the Heathkit name - although this is NOT spelled out in specific, it is implied in the phrase "heathkit's legacy...etc.". I am not a lawyer and I do not play one on TV.

Bama probably did not have to pull them, but probably are checking with an attorney, and pulled them just to avoid a money sucking frivolous lawsuit?

Seems like a rather weak assignment of rights given that the manuals are essentially in the public domain now for at least a decade...

But, what do I know?

            _-_-bear

PS. someone ought to buy the Heathkit name itself and build some moderne kitz??
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Jim, W5JO
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« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2008, 06:15:55 AM »

[
Carl, in one of the above posts, provided the link to the Asset Purchase Agreement between buyer and seller. That should provide answers.

Heathkit back in the summer, listed their entire manual business on ebay. The first listing had a very limited description and one picture of just a pile of manuals. I suspect most, if not all of the bidders, really had no clue how much "stuff" they were bidding on. Bids went to a hair over $6K and didn't meet the reserve. The second time it was listed, probably a birdie whispered in their ear, they posted a number of pictures, including several aisle shots (aisles of 5 drawer file cabinets); I believe approximately 27 file cabinets; and listed a reserve of either $9K or $10K. Bids didn't come close. The 3rd time they listed it, I believe the reserve was dropped to $7.5K and bidding didn't come close either.

The Asset Purchase Agreement mentioned above clearly spells out former owner and new owner.

I read that Pete.  You do know what is missing don't you?  There is no mention of the word Daystrom on the agreement.  Given Daystrom purchased the name and all assetts of Heath, one would think the agreement would have that name on it. 

There were two ex-employees who got manuals from the factory when Daystrom took everything except the manuals.  They just left them there and drove away.    So no one can provide a paper trail. So it appears that someone purchased a bunch of manuals and is scaring people into taking them off the web.  It also appears that that person doesn't have the right to do that, and if he/she crosses the wrong person, can spend a bit more money after the lawsuit.

There is also a web site that claims to own the rights to the Hero robot manual.  Wonder if the party of the first part bought them as well?
http://www.hero-1.com/broadband/
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K7NCR
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« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2008, 11:07:38 AM »

There is quite a "discussion" going on about this on the Heathkit Yahoo group. The buyer, a non-ham, even linked to the gubmint copyright website. I found no mention there of any copyright holder except 3 variations of the Heath name. This guy, (Don), has quite a few people more than PO-ed!
Norm K7NCR
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Carl WA1KPD
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« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2008, 11:30:24 AM »

There is quite a "discussion" going on about this on the Heathkit Yahoo group. The buyer, a non-ham, even linked to the gubmint copyright website. I found no mention there of any copyright holder except 3 variations of the Heath name. This guy, (Don), has quite a few people more than PO-ed!
Norm K7NCR

Sounds like he is off to a great start, winning over potential customers right and left
Carl
/KPD
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Ed/KB1HYS
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« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2008, 06:11:52 PM »

Well, here's hoping that after sitting on them with little or no business for a while, he at least allows them to be posted to the net again.
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73 de Ed/KB1HYS
Happiness is Hot Tubes, Cold 807's, and warm room filling AM Sound.
 "I've spent three quarters of my life trying to figure out how to do a $50 job for $.50, the rest I spent trying to come up with the $0.50" - D. Gingery
k4kyv
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« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2008, 06:25:28 PM »

Somebody should pull a Dr. Brinkley and post all the manuals onto a website outside of US soil and beyond US copyright laws, just to make damn sure he doesn't sell a one.
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