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K1OIK debates Contesters




 
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Author Topic: K1OIK debates Contesters  (Read 20702 times)
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Burt
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« on: August 25, 2008, 10:44:02 AM »

At the ARRL convention in Boxboro, Ma I got into a spirited debate with three contesters causing me to miss the AM forum by Tim WA1HLR. However they were well informed, who won?
http://www.youtube.com/v/omkOGqkVDKA
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W1EUJ
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« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2008, 11:19:28 AM »

boxboro convention
only two hams in a room
only space enough for one opinion
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« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2008, 11:26:13 AM »

There is no winner, Burt. You can't win in a debate against someone who is sure they are right and you are wrong. Just look at politics. Wink As far as the argument of 'doing good for others', exactly who? Other contesters, not the vast majority of hams and their behavior is not likely to encourage others to become hams. The computer story was nice, but more of an aberration. By their own on-air example, contesting in the most self-serving aspect of amateur radio, bar none.

It was interesting to see one fellow try to excuse bad behavior by pointing to other bad behavior. In this case, 'bad' meaning the ownership issue between net control/net frequencies and contesters. Neither is right to assume they own or take over any frequency in use, so it's a moot point.

The only chance of polishing this turd would be to restrict contesting drastically, both in frequency and....frequency. It's great that NG1G recognizes the emptiness of the bands on weekdays, but he uses that to make his case for contesting on weekends. Weekends are the only time most amateurs can actually get on the air for any length of time. If weekdays are the test case, schedule your contests then.

Along with cutting back on the number and frequency of contests, restrict them to the general class portions of the bands only. Leave Extra/Advanced for rag chewing and so on. Unfair to generals who aren't contesters? Maybe, but what an incentive to upgrade. Only those who restrict themselves by license class would be heavily impacted.

A good analogy would be the Grand Prix of Montreal, Monaco, etc. They close down the streets for the big race and everyone who's not a racer deals with it. They make other arrangements and get around via different transportation. Doing this once in a while is fine. Doing it every weekend would surely upset the natives. Just look at interstate construction projects.

But contesters can't have any of that. They want all of it, whenever they want it. Not just a frequency or handful, but the entire band. Of course you're 'free to operate'. Yeah, right. I agree with you on the oxymoron issue. Wink



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Burt
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« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2008, 08:48:46 PM »

There is no winner, Burt. You can't win in a debate against someone who is sure they are right and you are wrong. Just look at politics. Wink As far as the argument of 'doing good for others', exactly who? Other contesters, not the vast majority of hams and their behavior is not likely to encourage others to become hams. The computer story was nice, but more of an aberration. By their own on-air example, contesting in the most self-serving aspect of amateur radio, bar none.

It was interesting to see one fellow try to excuse bad behavior by pointing to other bad behavior. In this case, 'bad' meaning the ownership issue between net control/net frequencies and contesters. Neither is right to assume they own or take over any frequency in use, so it's a moot point.

The only chance of polishing this turd would be to restrict contesting drastically, both in frequency and....frequency. It's great that NG1G recognizes the emptiness of the bands on weekdays, but he uses that to make his case for contesting on weekends. Weekends are the only time most amateurs can actually get on the air for any length of time. If weekdays are the test case, schedule your contests then.

Along with cutting back on the number and frequency of contests, restrict them to the general class portions of the bands only. Leave Extra/Advanced for rag chewing and so on. Unfair to generals who aren't contesters? Maybe, but what an incentive to upgrade. Only those who restrict themselves by license class would be heavily impacted.

A good analogy would be the Grand Prix of Montreal, Monaco, etc. They close down the streets for the big race and everyone who's not a racer deals with it. They make other arrangements and get around via different transportation. Doing this once in a while is fine. Doing it every weekend would surely upset the natives. Just look at interstate construction projects.

But contesters can't have any of that. They want all of it, whenever they want it. Not just a frequency or handful, but the entire band. Of course you're 'free to operate'. Yeah, right. I agree with you on the oxymoron issue. Wink





You would have done a better job than I. Well put.
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k4kyv
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« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2008, 02:51:19 AM »

Debating a QRMtester is not something I would have missed an AM forum for.
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Burt
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« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2008, 08:19:00 AM »

There is no winner, Burt. You can't win in a debate against someone who is sure they are right and you are wrong. Just look at politics. Wink As far as the argument of 'doing good for others', exactly who? Other contesters, not the vast majority of hams and their behavior is not likely to encourage others to become hams. The computer story was nice, but more of an aberration. By their own on-air example, contesting in the most self-serving aspect of amateur radio, bar none.

It was interesting to see one fellow try to excuse bad behavior by pointing to other bad behavior. In this case, 'bad' meaning the ownership issue between net control/net frequencies and contesters. Neither is right to assume they own or take over any frequency in use, so it's a moot point.

The only chance of polishing this turd would be to restrict contesting drastically, both in frequency and....frequency. It's great that NG1G recognizes the emptiness of the bands on weekdays, but he uses that to make his case for contesting on weekends. Weekends are the only time most amateurs can actually get on the air for any length of time. If weekdays are the test case, schedule your contests then.

Along with cutting back on the number and frequency of contests, restrict them to the general class portions of the bands only. Leave Extra/Advanced for rag chewing and so on. Unfair to generals who aren't contesters? Maybe, but what an incentive to upgrade. Only those who restrict themselves by license class would be heavily impacted.

A good analogy would be the Grand Prix of Montreal, Monaco, etc. They close down the streets for the big race and everyone who's not a racer deals with it. They make other arrangements and get around via different transportation. Doing this once in a while is fine. Doing it every weekend would surely upset the natives. Just look at interstate construction projects.

But contesters can't have any of that. They want all of it, whenever they want it. Not just a frequency or handful, but the entire band. Of course you're 'free to operate'. Yeah, right. I agree with you on the oxymoron issue. Wink





NG1G responded:
Hi Burt,

Well, unfortunately, the gentleman makes numerous errors in both logic and
reasoning. What we (meaning hams) have to deal with is that for one group -
pick any one, DX'ers, contesters, rag chewers, etc - the other groups can
never ever do enough. It is not enough for this guy that we are doing good.
For him, it's not the right kind of good. It's just explained away as an
aberration. You see, as long as people justify their hatred of other groups
this way, we will be wasting our energy on fighting and bad-mouthing each
other rather than finding a way to get along and promoting amateur radio.

By the way, he is absolutely wrong about the "ownership" issue. The fact of
the matter is that if I am operating in a contest and some net controller
comes up on my frequency and tells me to move, he is in violation. My prior
presence on that frequency, although not a "right" does give me the
privilege of remaining there. If they hold their net on top of me and cause
interference, they are operating illegally. I've heard it happen, and it's
happened to me. There is no excuse for anyone to operate that way,
regardless of who is the transgressor. If a contester moves in on someone
trying to hold a net, he is just as guilty. This person is trying to make it
seem as though we're trying to "excuse our bad behavior". Perhaps he needs
to watch the video again.

And "contesting in [sic] the most self-serving aspect of amateur radio, bar
none."? What does that mean? So we engage in an activity that he doesn't
wish to engage in, probably doesn't understand, and so it becomes
self-serving? I could give a multitude of examples as to how that statement
is factually incorrect, but again, nothing I could say would ever be enough.
He has already proven that in his first paragraph. Amateur radio is, by its
nature, self-serving, unless it is being done strictly as a public service.
Rag-chewing is not self-serving? DX'ing is not self-serving? Come on,
where's the balanced thinking here?

The fact that most of us have time only on the weekends to operate has
nothing to do with anything. And I did not use it to make a case for
contesting on weekends. It is what it is. People go camping, bike-riding,
fishing, ballooning, etc. on the weekends because that's when people have
the time. So how logical is it to say in one breath that we only have time
on weekends, and then to say schedule contests during the week? Is he
employing ANY reasoning skills here at all? No, because his only goal is to
abolish contesting, despite the fact that contesting is every bit as
legitimate an activity as any other activity you can think of. And, by the
way, it has nothing to do with whether you personally feel that contesters
do not exchange "useful" information. "Useful" is a subjective term whose
connotation is relative to the speaker. I do not find CW useful. Many people
do. Does my definition of usefulness render CW useless? I would say that if
there are many CW ops that find it useful, then it must, by definition, be
useful in some manner. The fact of the matter is, ham radio is whatever hams
do. Operating CW is ham radio. Digging a hole, filling it with concrete and
erecting a tower is ham radio. Building a shack is ham radio. Contesting is
ham radio. I could go on and on but I think you get my point. And I also
stand by my factual statement that on weekends when there is no major
contest going on, the bands are full of dead air. Turn on the radio this
weekend and tell me I'm wrong. At least contesters are using the spectrum.
By the thousands.

And again, restriction of one group of hams is the answer to all of amateur
radio's ills. No other group ever does any harm. All one has to do is read
what the guy is saying, and see how he (like many people) will lump ALL
contesters (CW ops, rag-chewers, DX'ers, etc) in one group, as if we are a
homogeneous entity. If one contester is bad, they must all be bad. We all
want the same thing, we all have the same philosophy, and we're out to
destroy amateur radio. Can you really take that attitude seriously?

The sad part is that this guy doesn't know me, doesn't know the people I
know, doesn't know the good things we do, and doesn't know the first thing
about contesting, amateur radio, debate, or even life. And he doesn't care.
Sadly, he gets the press because he stirs the pot and people love to hate
other people.

I don't know what AM forum this was posted to, but if you would send me a
link to it, I would be happy to post my thoughts there. Despite the fact
that I have better things to do with my time, he probably needs to be set
straight by an intelligent, cogent, civil, and factual response.

I look forward to more discussion on these worthwhile topics. Perhaps you
may find more to like about contesting and contesters than you thought.

73,
Pat, NG1G
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Burt
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« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2008, 08:20:07 AM »

Debating a QRMtester is not something I would have missed an AM forum for.

Tim sang at the forum, I am glad I missed that.
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k4kyv
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« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2008, 10:46:44 AM »

Debating a QRMtester is not something I would have missed an AM forum for.

Tim sang at the forum, I am glad I missed that.

That was hilarious.  Wish I could have been there, but 1200 miles is too far to travel for a hamfest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sl-DY8IsUB0
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« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2008, 04:24:27 PM »

Pat, NG1G, stated:
Quote
If a contester moves in on someone
trying to hold a net, he is just as guilty. This person is trying to make it
seem as though we're trying to "excuse our bad behavior".

Unfortunately this is more the rule rather than the exception. I still have not heard from one corntester as to why they should hold a complete band hostage while the rest of us have to stand on the sidelines until it is over with. I'm willing to share the band but obviously, to the corntesters, its all or none.
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« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2008, 05:11:53 PM »

Seems like the "all or nothing" mindset apparent on both sides of this "debate" prevents any sort of reasonable resolution.  I also believe that all of the name-calling serves no purpose other than to reflect poorly on those doing it.  

I think it might be a reasonable consideration to establish no contest zones in the CW and Fone portions of the bands. Contest sponsors could make it known that violations of this restriction would lead to disqualification.  Then the contests could proceed and the rag chews could proceed and we would have some 'semblance of harmony.  The violators would stand out clearly.

I think that contests are fine, but not to the extent that they render the (entire) bands useless for everyone other than the contest participants.  I have participated in many contests and I have enjoyed them, however, the existence of a contest does not excuse rude operation.  Contests do not justify bad operators who crash in on top of existing QSOs, however, just because a "net" operates on a specific frequency does not entitle that group to pile in on top of an operator already using that frequency.  As far as I know there are no specific frequencies assigned by the FCC to specific stations or groups!

It goes both ways guys!  We need to try to cooperate and recognize that there are many different aspects of amateur radio that people enjoy pursuing.  Not everyone enjoys the same modes or operating habits.  However, AMers, SSBers, CW enthusiasts, contesters, DXers, experimenters, VHF/UHF fans, packeteers/digital mode operators, etc, etc, etc.  We are all Hams and we all have access to the same frequencies, limited only by our operating privileges granted by our class of license.  Let's find ways to work together to make the hobby more enjoyable for all of us.

73,  Jack, W9GT
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« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2008, 05:46:23 PM »

This P & M is probably as old as ham radio. No fly band zones probably wouldn't since many contests have international participation. Sometimes they can't go where  U. S. contesters operate; sometimes they have to operate split, etc. For HF contest non-participation, QSY to 60 Meters, the WARC bands, or VHF/UHF, or go hug your cat, or go build or break something. Many of us also enjoy the contesting, DXing, and even those digital modes and most of us own at least one VFO. Contesting is good for blood circulation and testing the reflexes. It's also a form of mind control.

Stay young - be a contester.
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« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2008, 06:13:55 PM »

Pete said:
Quote
This P & M is probably as old as ham radio. No fly band zones probably wouldn't since many contests have international participation. Sometimes they can't go where  U. S. contesters operate; sometimes they have to operate split, etc. For HF contest non-participation, QSY to 60 Meters, the WARC bands, or VHF/UHF, or go hug your cat, or go build or break something.

No Pete!!! I shouldn't have to QSY because some idiot decided to pee on my parade. Neither should you. I don't have a problem sharing the band. If I'm there first, its squatters rights, (for lack of a better definition), I shouldn't be run off by an obnoxious bunch of QRMtesters, (and that is EXACTLY what it is). If the QRMtests would be given a portion of the freq. to work within, yeah, I could do that but not whole portions of the phone band. Some people don't have 60 metres or WARC band capabilities, (usually found on rice boxes I might add). What are they to do, stick the hand up their butt and direct traffic? No group of people, including AMer's own a portion of the band. Like I said prior, LIDtesting is the rule, not the exception.
Mark, I see exactly where  you are coming from. We bitched about last year and we will this year. I personally thought that Riley was way out in left field when he said that we should take a proverbial chill pill. End of rant!
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ka3zlr
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« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2008, 07:03:51 PM »

Well Burt,

 All I have to say on this is, Consider the Source....and that is just an observation.


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« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2008, 07:21:35 PM »

No Pete!!! I shouldn't have to QSY because some idiot decided to pee on my parade. Neither should you. I don't have a problem sharing the band. If I'm there first, its squatters rights, (for lack of a better definition), I shouldn't be run off by an obnoxious bunch of QRMtesters, (and that is EXACTLY what it is). I personally thought that Riley was way out in left field when he said that we should take a proverbial chill pill. End of rant!

Well, you make the choice and live with it. Although I enjoy contests, and operate in a number of them, when I'm not in the contest mood, I move on to do something else. I can always find something interesting to do in the ham shack. Getting on the air isn't always a high priority but all my rigs have a VFO and a bandswitch. Riley hit the nail on the head with his comment. In my opinion, contesting has to be one of the more popular on the air ham radio activities and probably will continue to remain so.
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Steve - WB3HUZ
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« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2008, 08:57:53 PM »

Then you and K3MSB are at odds. He claims it's only a small fraction of operation and you claim it's the most popular of activities. Even if it is the most popular, that gives it no greater legal claim to the airwaves than any other activity. Do you really think people would be P&Ming as much as they do about contesting if they had never been QRMed by contesters?

Everyone wants to go off on tangents. It's not contesting in and of itself, it's the obnoxious, rude and often illegal operation of contesters that is the problem. No amount of spewing numbers can justify such. And since contesters will not police themselves, then there will be calls for the FCC to police them (limiting frequencies, times, etc). I'd prefer the former but contesters seem to want the latter based on their behavior.



No Pete!!! I shouldn't have to QSY because some idiot decided to pee on my parade. Neither should you. I don't have a problem sharing the band. If I'm there first, its squatters rights, (for lack of a better definition), I shouldn't be run off by an obnoxious bunch of QRMtesters, (and that is EXACTLY what it is). I personally thought that Riley was way out in left field when he said that we should take a proverbial chill pill. End of rant!

Well, you make the choice and live with it. Although I enjoy contests, and operate in a number of them, when I'm not in the contest mood, I move on to do something else. I can always find something interesting to do in the ham shack. Getting on the air isn't always a high priority but all my rigs have a VFO and a bandswitch. Riley hit the nail on the head with his comment. In my opinion, contesting has to be one of the more popular on the air ham radio activities and probably will continue to remain so.
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« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2008, 09:31:35 PM »

Wow! I really enjoy hollering down a well.  Just love hearing no response except my own echo.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2008, 09:41:39 PM »

Steve said:
Quote
Everyone wants to go off on tangents. It's not contesting in and of itself, it's the obnoxious, rude and often illegal operation of contesters that is the problem. No amount of spewing numbers can justify such. And since contesters will not police themselves, then there will be calls for the FCC to police them (limiting frequencies, times, etc). I'd prefer the former but contesters seem to want the latter based on their behavior.

No Pete, Riley didn't hit it on the head, Steve did. Still not one QRMtester or other operator for that matter, answered my question. What and why do they have to spoil the band for everyone? My appealing I guess should be made to the sponsors of the QRMtests. "Operate between X & Y frequencies or be disqualified. Very simple. Or have a way to submit complaints to the sponsors. They get 2 complaints about a station causing interference, then they forfeit the QRMtest. Forces QRMtesters to be on their best behavior. You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar.
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« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2008, 09:47:57 PM »

Stop hollering.....

I think the lack of replies indicates agreement, for sure in my case.


Wow! I really enjoy hollering down a well.  Just love hearing no response except my own echo.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2008, 10:21:17 PM »

Then you and K3MSB are at odds. He claims it's only a small fraction of operation and you claim it's the most popular of activities. Even if it is the most popular, that gives it no greater legal claim to the airwaves than any other activity. Do you really think people would be P&Ming as much as they do about contesting if they had never been QRMed by contesters?

Mark said: "...and shown the percentage of weekends each year the major phone contests occur,  and it's a pretty small percentage of the weekends (I think 20% and I was being liberal as to what I considered a major phone contest)."

Whereas, I was referring to all contest activity in general. ARRL contest sponsored activity is probably about 20%, as shown here, http://www.remote.arrl.org/contests/calendar.html , but when you view the "Contest Corral" Listings by month, http://www.remote.arrl.org/contests/#corral (Top of page) you see that there are quite a few contests, both domestically and internationally, that are scheduled each month. Participation can be focused to a specific group or area, while others are open to the world.

Whether I'm in a contest or not, if QRM from wherever creeps up near my frequency of operation, most of the time I can just narrow up the receiver bandwidth and it all goes away. Maybe the recipient of the alleged QRM has a receiver that lacks the necessary refinements to reduce adjacent channel interference.



Quote
Everyone wants to go off on tangents. It's not contesting in and of itself, it's the obnoxious, rude and often illegal operation of contesters that is the problem. No amount of spewing numbers can justify such. And since contesters will not police themselves, then there will be calls for the FCC to police them (limiting frequencies, times, etc). I'd prefer the former but contesters seem to want the latter based on their behavior.

Obviously, if this was such a major issue, with all the noncontesters reporting to the FCC all this "illegal" operation over the years, one would think that the FCC would have clamped down by now. I'm not sure "obnoxious and rude" would fall under any particular FCC rule, in our hobby radio other then maybe not performing perceived "good operating procedures". Maybe a form of "bad hygiene radio" operating.




Well, you make the choice and live with it. Although I enjoy contests, and operate in a number of them, when I'm not in the contest mood, I move on to do something else. I can always find something interesting to do in the ham shack. Getting on the air isn't always a high priority but all my rigs have a VFO and a bandswitch. Riley hit the nail on the head with his comment. In my opinion, contesting has to be one of the more popular on the air ham radio activities and probably will continue to remain so.
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« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2008, 10:30:26 PM »

Then you and K3MSB are at odds. He claims it's only a small fraction of operation and you claim it's the most popular of activities.

No we are not at odds. There's always multiple contests going on each weekend.  Check some of the on-line contest calanders.   The big SSB ones are few and far between.   You don't notice the small ones, but you do notice the big ones.

Maybe you don't notice them but that doesn't mean others don't. You two are at major odds and I find it hilarious. The fact that contesters cannot come up with a coherent argument does not help their cause.


Quote
Even if it is the most popular, that gives it no greater legal claim to the airwaves than any other activity.

That's right.


Of course it's right. But you conveniently left out the point of that comment which was that by QRMing frequencies already in use, contesters obviously don't think that's right.


Quote
Do you really think people would be P&Ming as much as they do about contesting if they had never been QRMed by contesters?

How many people are P&Ming Steve?  What numbers do you have to justify that statement?   I've never seen any numbers that would substantiate such a claim.  In my opinion, it's a vocal minority.


You are the one who said it's debated over and over here. Pete said people are just P&Ming. The numbers are irrelevant to the point. I said people are complaining because of the QRM. Trying to claim this is not true because the numbers complaining are small (or at least in your opinion) doesn't speak to the point.

I think you and I agree intentional QRM is wrong. All the rest is just chain yanking. Wink




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« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2008, 10:34:15 PM »

Quote
Obviously, if this was such a major issue, with all the noncontesters reporting to the FCC all this "illegal" operation over the years, one would think that the FCC would have clamped down by now.

You mean like the swift action the FCC took because of the complaints received regarding K1MAN?  Tongue


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« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2008, 10:55:10 PM »

Quote
Obviously, if this was such a major issue, with all the noncontesters reporting to the FCC all this "illegal" operation over the years, one would think that the FCC would have clamped down by now.

You mean like the swift action the FCC took because of the complaints received regarding K1MAN?  Tongue

The system isn't perfect, but it does work. Time is on their side.
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« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2008, 11:07:51 PM »

Maybe you don't notice them but that doesn't mean others don't. You two are at major odds and I find it hilarious. The fact that contesters cannot come up with a coherent argument does not help their cause.

I find it sad that you can't (or won't) justify your assertions.  List for me the number of SSB contests that (in the words of Mike) "spoil" the band, or take the band "hostage".  If it's that bad Steve, you should be able to easily list them.   If someone get's annoyed because they hear any contest activity at all, that's too bad.


I've justified my assertions. I've never used the term hostage. I used intentional QRM. I'm sure your are not trying to justify intentional QRM because it only happens on certain contest weekends, are you?

Quote
But you conveniently left out the point of that comment which was that by QRMing frequencies already in use, contesters obviously don't think that's right.

I've addressed that in prior posts; please read them.


I did. It seemed to me you were using numbers to justify intentional QRM. I ask again, are you?

Quote
The numbers are irrelevant to the point.

You said "Do you really think people would be P&Ming as much as they do"

The numbers are only irrelevant to you becuase you can NOT produce them.

C'mon Steve let's see your data.  Of course, you can just wave your hand and claim an argument is invalid if you can't produce the data.  Oh, you just did that....



I don't recall a requirement for data. I never asked for one from you. My point, again, was intentional QRM. I don't see how numbers can be used to justify illegal operation.

As a thought experiment, put the shoe on the other foot. If you could not participate in contests because someone QRMed you, would you complain or just say, "It's OK, it's only a few weekends a year."
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W3SLK
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Just another member member.


« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2008, 08:16:38 AM »

Steve said:
Quote
You mean like the swift action the FCC took because of the complaints received regarding K1MAN?

Touche' Steve.

Mark responded:
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I find it sad that you can't (or won't) justify your assertions.  List for me the number of SSB contests that (in the words of Mike) "spoil" the band, or take the band "hostage". 

Well Mark, being that I very seldom venture out of the 160 Metre band, (I like the English spelling of meter), I would say any phone QRMtest that occurs there. The CW contests, (note the difference), sometimes drift into the so called 'phone' portion of 160, but it is pretty sparse and is non-existent from ~1900-2000 Kc. I've gone up to 75 a time or two expecting some relief but found a cacophony of noise & QRM.
To add fuel to the fire, I have consistently found QRMtest stations say, "Say again....say again....say again..... you're 5-9, 5-9,5-9, QSL? 5-9 QSL? Good luck in the contest..." Not just one, two, three, but more stations than I care to count. Suffice to say Mark, QRMtests hold the band hostage. There is no safe haven for a non-participant on the band to hold a decent QSO. Yes I'm P&Ming but it is my prerogative and I will do it again with unbridled enthusiasm this year Wink
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Mike(y)/W3SLK
Invisble airwaves crackle with life, bright antenna bristle with the energy. Emotional feedback, on timeless wavelength, bearing a gift beyond lights, almost free.... Spirit of Radio/Rush
ka3zlr
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« Reply #24 on: August 27, 2008, 09:22:17 AM »

What data, imagine an all AM contest all weekend on all bands at all operating efficient times of the day...on any available Phone frequency.... for a whole weekend....then you'd hear from the other side of the fence...what the hell they think they're doing...

Get back up or down in yer window....this is Moot...

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