Basement or attic shack?

[N0WEK]

When I decided to upgrade the license and get on HF and AM I started an attic remodel to give me space for a shack. It also improves my whole house's insulation and gives me more usable space.

Now that I have all the insulation, structure and such done I'm starting to rethink where the shack should be. My original thought was that the attic would be a nice space and I'd be closer to my antennas. On further thought I'm thinking that I may be better off in the basement nearer to the main breaker box and a good RF ground system. It certainly would be easier to deal with my boat anchors in the basement, although the BC-610E is already in the attic, wrapped in plastic to keep out the coming sheet rock dust. Most of my gear is boat anchors and I'm stocking parts for a real 6 ft tall classic maul.

I'd appreciate any thoughts on the pros and cons of attic vs basement shacks that any of you guy have. Am I better off closer to my RF ground or my antennas?

I'll have to go one way or the other soon.

Thanks

Greg

[KF1Z]

Greg,

Lots to consider there....

Being closer to the antennas.... not really a good thing  (could lead to rf in places you don't want it)

Closer to the breaker panel does not lead to a good rf ground.
Though, at or slightly below ground level, means less ground strap out to your rf grounding system.

In the basement, you might have moisture problems.

In the attic in the summer, maybe too hot for the operator.
And, you may need to make sure that the floor is actually strong enough to hold a lot of weight, in a small footprint.


I'm sure you'll get some other comments as well....

Good luck!

[W1EUJ]

Think about your back. Find a closet or a room corner on your main floor.

[N0WEK]

Greg,

Lots to consider there....

Being closer to the antennas.... not really a good thing  (could lead to rf in places you don't want it)

Closer to the breaker panel does not lead to a good rf ground.
Though, at or slightly below ground level, means less ground strap out to your rf grounding system.

In the basement, you might have moisture problems.

In the attic in the summer, maybe too hot for the operator.
And, you may need to make sure that the floor is actually strong enough to hold a lot of weight, in a small footprint.


I'm sure you'll get some other comments as well....

Good luck!

I should probably add that I've got really good insulation in the attic, I had it sprayed with the closed cell polyurethane and doubled it up with another R-3 over the rafters. Heat or cooling won't be a problem there, although it'll be even easier in the basement.

Good point about not being too close to the antennas, RF in the shack could be a problem.

I've got pretty good power feeds up to the attic, but I can always use more and I know that I'll need a separate RF ground system in either place. I figured I'd have stiffer AC power closer to the box and easier to run more. I figure that getting a good RF ground will be harder to do when I'm more than 20 ft off the ground in the attic. I've got all my water, gravity heat and gas pipes bonded together and I could extend that into the attic to add to the ground system, but I'm closer to all that in the basement and I don't know if trying to use all that pipe is going to cause it to radiate.

As you say, lots to consider.

Thanks for the input!

Greg

[N0WEK]

Think about your back. Find a closet or a room corner on your main floor.

There is that to consider. In my house it's a partial flight up to the main floor from the side door and a little further down to the basement, no space on the main floor though. The attic is two floors up a twisty staircase. I removed the plate transformer from the BC-610, which took it down to about 300 lbs when we took it up to the attic but we could only get 4 people on the staircase. Not fun but not too bad; that's the biggest single piece I'll have to move. On the other hand, the Super Pros and SX-28s aren't exactly light and they are already in the basement.

Luckily, I've got a nice dry basement.

Another benefit of the basement is that it's two floors away from my sleeping wife at 2 AM.

I shouldn't have waited until I'm 60 to get into large boat anchors, and black powder artillery. It would have been easier on my back if I'd done it 20 years ago; of course I didn't have the disposable income then!

Greg

[Jerry-n5ugw]

Stick it in the basement, it's cooler, and down hill. Plus in the dark the pubbs glow warmer and in the winter it keeps the space warm.

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

One other thing to consider about the basement location that I've not seen listed yet, Greg: leaking or burst plumbing. Someone posted about this 2-3 years back, and I personally had a pipe split 2 winters ago on the 1st floor while I was home, fortunately. A lot of water and damage, fast.

There are pros and cons for either, in the end it'll be whatever you're most comfortable with. Hauling heavy rigs down the basement stairs as they arrive may seem easy now with gravity on your side, but eventually, some will have to go back up.

[N0WEK]

One other thing to consider about the basement location that I've not seen listed yet, Greg: leaking or burst plumbing. Someone posted about this 2-3 years back, and I personally had a pipe split 2 winters ago on the 1st floor while I was home, fortunately. A lot of water and damage, fast.

There are pros and cons for either, in the end it'll be whatever you're most comfortable with. Hauling heavy rigs down the basement stairs as they arrive may seem easy now with gravity on your side, but eventually, some will have to go back up.

The water meter is in the room in the basement that the shack would go into, but there isn't any other plumbing there, unlike the rest of the basement. It's in really good shape since I redid it all in the last 10 years, although nothing is fool proof. 

It's true that some gear will have to come out eventually, but the basement is lots easier than 5 turns on the stairs on the way up to the attic.

I guess I'm leaning towards the basement, in which case my wife will get the space in the attic that would have been the shack. In either case, redoing the attic space is saving me a bunch of heat, and giving me lots more heated and cooled space.

Does anybody have any experience with RF grounding in a shack 20 ft off the ground?

[w3jn]

Todd makes an outstanding point.  I have never had water in the basement from outside sources, but leaking water heaters, pinholes in copper pipes, overflows from the laundry (becuase the purge pump died) and most recently, a plugged A/C condensate drain have caused more than my fair share of basement puddles.

[W1EUJ]

Even without leaks, you have water vapor coming up and through your basement walls. How cool is your basement? The cooler, the more evaporation you have. I have a temperature and humidity logger, and left it down there for a while. It ranged from 80% to 95% (max of range). On bad days, it could get very musty - I'm sure there was mold.

I changed my ventilation and have a RH controlled dehumidifier. Unless I turn the fans and dehumidifier off for a long trip, I can keep it at 60-75% locally.

You've seen what moisture does to radios. Attic radios are always clean. Basement radios corrode.

In fact, I'd vote for the attic for that reason AND you can install sound-deadening materials and feedline feedthrus easy up there without condensation issues AND having a station in the attic up winding stairs is really cool. You belong in the aether, not in the ground.

[k4kyv]

Another factor would be the likelihood of flooding.  Your QTH may not have flooded for decades, but still, it may inside a 100-year, 500-year or 1000-year flood plain.  There is no guarantee that the 1000-year flood won't occur to-morrow.  Ask some of the folks on the Gulf coast, who lost 300 years-old houses during Katrina and Rita.

I would take ground floor as first choice, an upstairs floor as second, and basement as last choice.  If the house is in a flood plain, I would take an upstairs as first choice.  I have seen too much stuff ruined from basement moisture.

[N3DRB The Derb]

whatever you do, dont stick it in a uncooled garage that is facing the afternoon sun. My air temps in there have hit over 105 at times.

I vote basement with 2 strong dehumidifiers and a damn good sump pump just in case. Make sure everything is off the floor 4 or 5 inches. Nothing beats a cool basement shack when it's 100+ degrees outside.

keeping the fils lit will make some natural dehumid atction going, some big bags of silica gel, will help as well. When they get saturated,
cook em in he oven and put em back in th radio cabinet.

[WBear2GCR]

I like to be able to see something when I operate - a good view is a big plus for me personally.

There is always the option of <gasp> two shacks!!
                      _-_-bear

[KM1H]

There were a lot of unhappy basement hams out here in 2006 and 2007 as we got two 100 year storms a year apart.

Im on top of a hill and 500' above the rivers, streams and creeks that run all thru this and surrounding towns. RF ground isnt a concern here since there isnt one on rock and Ive yet to observe a RF related problem at 1500W on 160M to 432 MHz. Even the power company cant get a good ground for at least a mile on this street.

If you are on a 100% guaranteed safe spot then a basement can be the best spot as it allows a lot of room for expansion as well as usually being near the tools and spare parts plus a workbench or three. In my case I run two dehumidifiers when necessary. However the basement is 64' long and is two hamshacks, restoration and repair, my microwave consulting biz lab, mini machine shop and a 50 year parts accumulation . The two floors above are for living and my office so there is one station on the ground floor and another in the upstairs BR....I dont like to miss much.

The walk up attic is both radio storage on multiple racks of commercial shelving ( I can relate to the weight of much of that gear!) and remotely operated UHF thru microwave ham gear that will be feeding the new tower bracketed to the house. Feedline loss was the primary concern.

So I guess Ive got all the above suggestions well covered

As long as youve put all that effort into the attic then give it a try for awhile. The BC-610 has a very small footprint and Id be concerned about the weight. You may wish to lay down a couple of 2" thick boards long enough to cover at least 4 floor joists to spread the load. And have it over a load bearing wall.

I followed my own advice in the attic.

Carl
KM1H

[w8khk]

Attic and basement both have their advantages.  While moisture and water could be a problem in the basement, it can be controlled.  Here in Georgia, most houses are built on hilly land, and usually have main entry to the home in the higher elevation, and a garage door to the basement at the lower side of the lot.  This makes it easy to get the BC rigs and boat-anchors in and out of the basement shack. 

When I brought the BTA-1MX into the basement, it came in through the boat door horizontally on two furniture dollys, then I used a come-along to pull it upright.  There is not enough ceiling height to stand it up where the ceiling is finished, I had to move it to an unfinished area (between floor joists) to stand it upright, as the diagonal measure is taller than the ceiling.  Keep this in mind when you finish your basement if you plan a tall BC rig.

I built a separate shack in the second story of a storage building behind my house.  Sheetrocked walls and ceiling with stipple finish, carpet, air conditioning, and underground utilities (240VAC, 100 amps from main panel in the house).  I also buried three runs of hardline (scrapped by the local cable service) between the house and remote shack, as well as phone, network, fibre, and control cables.   I plan to remote control the boat anchors from the remote shack. 

Perhaps you should think about the possibility of running the heavy metal in the basement, but put a remote operating position up in the attic with some of the smaller, lighter equipment.  VHF and UHF upstairs, as it is usually smaller and lighter, and makes for shorter feed to the antenna.  HF BAs could be in the basement shack.  Keep the options open, and do what make the most pleasant operating experience.   Keep some of the equipment operational from the basement shack, so you can listen and jump in while you are in the workshop.

[KB2WIG]

My shack is in the basement; I'm at 1200 ASL so i'm not worried. The house has a sump without a pump. I run a dehumidifier as insurance, and i'm in the process of sealing the basement walls as insurance against moisture Influx. Yes, its the temperature differential that causes condensation, but you can get ground moisture through the wall.

 MY problem is Mr. Toad. He scares me. He stands up and looks throught the window at me.


klc

[WD8BIL]

I've had'em both and I prefer the dungeon. It floods now once in a while so I'm 2nd floor now off the rec room.

When the last kid goes I'm settling her bedroom on the first floor. Close enuf for a good ground...... closer to the kitchen..... closer to the bathroom and closer to my honey!

[WQ9E]

I have a split shack arrangement, the "contesting" shack with modern gear and the big amp is in the ground floor of the barn (which is built into the side of a hill) and the room is finished and air conditioned.  This room is close to the tower with a 4 element triband quad and the Hy Gain Hy Tower and lets me operate contests without disturbing the rest of the household.  Between the air conditioner and a dehumidifier, humidity has never been an issue and since it is partially "underground" it is fairly easy to keep at a comfortable temperature.  However, since my 4 year old was born I have had very little time (or inclination) to contest; probably this will change in the future.

I have one room on the first floor of the main house (originally the "parlor") that contains the Ranger/Desk KW/SX-88, a Drake 7 line, and some Collins gear that tends to get the most usage.  It is conveniently located so I can run into the kitchen for food and drink which is nice!  This is an area I keep neat since it gets a lot of exposure.

But the majority of the vintage gear is in the basement shack  (36X24) and it is my favorite environment since it is cool and quiet.  This shack was built as part of our master suite addition a couple of years ago and the poured concrete walls were sealed from the outside.  Current code required a sump pit to be built in and at the contractors suggestion I dropped in a sump pump so I could give all of the concrete a good wash down before building shelves for the equipment.  But the house is on a hill so water is not an issue.  I also have some gear in the older basement that is part of the original construction (1901) and a pair of dehumidifiers keep the humidity in that area at 60% which seems dry enough to avoid problems; most of the gear in this section is Navy gear anyway so it better be pretty humidity resistant!

I much prefer the basement and if you can avoid flooding concerns (good sump pump plus battery backed unit if you really depend upon a sump pump) and use dehumidifiers to keep the moisture in check a basement shack is hard to beat.  I have a couple of windows at ground level so I can be aware of the weather (and so Siam Sam the shack cat can have a place to sit).  My local contractor was very interested in the vintage gear and he and his brother helped me move my Gates BC-250 into the new basement during construction; I don't plan to ever take it back out but I do have a 48" walkout which provides good access for bringing home new hamfest finds.  Good luck with your decision and do be careful of floor loading if you go with the attic choice.

Attached are some views of "basement world"

Rodger

[ka3zlr]

Well whatever you do, and How are you by the way....

Add: 1 Small refrigerator.
       1 Sturdy Wastebasket.
       1 Pencil Sharpener.
       1 Good Sized Flashlight.
       1 Flyswatter.
       1 Decent Sized hanger for the test probes an jumper cables.
       1 Chair that is Form fitting and Sturdy.(preferably with Wheels)


the rest is relative.

73 jack.

  

[flintstone mop]

Looks like the responses have hit on all of the pitfalls and benefits of attic vs basment. I like the basement to distance the equipment from the aerials and be closer to the magical ground system. And to have easier access to 220vac.
If there are situations with sump pumps and water coming in during long periods of rain or melting snow, then I would head for higher ground. I witnessed a neat attic station at HUZ radio, when Steve was living in Baltimore. No RFI and the structure handled the heavy metal very well. Those were the great Gangsta days with DERB and the other radio folks.

Fred

[Carl WA1KPD]

I went with a room in the 2nd floor of our house. Not a big, but makes my collection look like I have  more.

We have daughters who are 11 and 13. Being in the main part of the house allows me to be a part of the family and still enjoy my hobby.

Carl
/KPD

[W3RSW]

For many years as WA3YPI, I had a 2nd story shack, previously a small bedroom in an old farmhouse.  I had lots of RF on 20 meters and then ran a separate, different length ground wire.  Never did get rid of all RF problems.   

Since '95 after moving to WVa I now have a basement shack, the main breaker panel is about 5 ft. from the op. desk and very easy to get to.  Made a 240 drop from it very easily by tying onto the 'downstream' side of a 240/60 amp. breaker supplying the barn thru buried cable.  So that part's easy and very little RF biting from 'lifted' grounds in ordinary hamming.  RF feedback on the other hand, what with computers, digital mode boxes, etc. is as hard to handle as ever.  Regardless of location sometimes elimination of RF feedback, etc. seems to be as much art as practice. 

But you know what I miss the most of all from the 2nd floor shack?. 
The View.
Yeah, I now have a small basement window 'up high' in the wall and it's only useful for telling if it's day, night, bright or dim outside. Even storms are unnoticable unless raining very hard and rain is dropping from the veg. outside close to the window. 

Yeah, gotta go with the first floor of the house if'n I had to do it all over again.
Might still.  Best of all worlds.

See who's coming and going.
See the weather, the landscape, the sky.
We seem to operate better with natural daylight shining down upon us.

Snow scenes in the winter.
Sturm and Drang, coming from over the hills in the summer.
oh, lost my train of thought.

Once in a while a glance at the freq. readout or dial, remember I'm in QSO and not looking at deer, squirrils and once in a long whlile turkey.
Even the op. location at the upstairs computer (mostly wife's stuff) has a real good view of backyard, back '40' and woods. 

So if you have dormer windows in the attic, something you can see out of and not just skylights, I'd go for the attic.  Run counterpoises on bands that give you trouble, etc.  RFI will still be an issue regardless of where you are.  If you can't see much out of the attic, then down to the dungeon with you...
A lot of other things will be easier. 

[k4kyv]

The problem with using a sump pump to keep a basement from flooding, is that when you need it the most during an extended downpour, that is the most likely time for a power outage to occur, caused by a nearby lightning strike or high wind.

I don't have a basement and even though the house is on a small hill, water used to stand under the house in the crawl space.  I JS'ed with a sump pump for years, and the thing always seemed to flake out when its service was needed, and water and high humidity were damaging to the foundation and rotting the framing.

So I built a "French drain" along the front and back sides of the house,  basically a septic field line working in reverse, which collects the water in a gravel-filled ditch before it can run under the house, and takes it down the hill, using a 6"  diameter PVC drain pipe.  Now it is dry as a bone under the house year round, and during a heavy rainfall I  can go down to the end of the drain pipes and watch the huge column of water rushing out.  Before I installed the drain system, all that water would have gone under the house and stayed there to stagnate.

The hardest part of the project was digging the ditches.  I did it mostly by hand, but the one crossing the front lawn had to be laid 4' deep at one point to keep the drain pipe sloping downhill, so I rented a small backhoe to dig that section.  The entire project cost me close to $1800 (not counting my physical work), but if I had got it done professionally, the cost would have run between $5k and $10k and it probably would not have been done right.

[flintstone mop]

CARL
your pubes are really glowing OM. Must be some heavy music going through while hooked up to the dummy load for testing.

Fred

[Carl WA1KPD]

Not really
That pic was taken in QRP Mode

Carl /KPD