Gasoline Madness;When to Stop

[K6JEK]

Have you noticed it on this board? The radical environmentalists are to blame..........

Activists Repeatedly Fend Off Attempts to Open Arctic Refuge to Oil Drilling
http://wwf.worldwildlife.org/site/PageServer?pagename=can_results_arctic_refuge

I guess that's what you call taking things out of context, using just the first phrase in a paragraph and leaving out the rest.  I'd have to say you missed the point entirely or maybe you just made the case.

[Ed KB1HVS]

The Exxon/Mobile dicks testified that we need to conserve more. They are making record profits.

Those "record profits" go to their shareholders in the form of dividends.

My parents have worked hard all their lives and just recently retired. A large portion of their retirment is in the stocks they own, a large portion of those stocks being in Mobil. When people hear "shareholders", they picture the Donald Trumps of America, not the hard-working backbone of this country who depend on those dividends for their survival. They are a publicly owned company.

I don't like the idea of the House and Senate punishing my parents because the price of crude oil is going up. They collect more in taxes (average $0.44/gallon) than the oil companies collect in profits (after you deduct operational costs like refinement and shipping).

Why explore for new resources when you don't have to. They are laughing at us while we whine. Even if they would, do you think it will make much of a difference?

Which "they"? My parents aren't laughing, and they're putting food on the table with the money ExxonMobil pays out in dividends.

There's no one "they" to blame, here. We are addicted to gasoline as a culture, the House and Senate are addicted to tax revenue by tradition, and the tree huggers are addicted to keeping places they've never seen (and couldn't find on a map) looking pretty for postcards in the name of ecology.

A publicly-owned company making profits for the public who bought in to that company is not the culprit.

How much money is being forked out to pay for these hearings, I wonder? Probably coming out of that 44 cents per gallon the gubmint has their hand out for.

Forget the profits going to the (millions of) shareholders, follow where the rest of the money is going, and you'll see it's totally different from (but still worse than) you thought.

--Thom
Killer Agony One Zipper Got Caught

Thom. My parents also worked very hard for what they have. My father died 4 years ago so there gos half of his pension. When my 86 year old mother tries to stay warm this winter, and it costs $800.00 + to fill the tank, the last thing on anyones mind here is Exxon/Mobile shareholders. Sorry. p.s I have no problem with anyone making money, but there are always the consequences.

[ka3zlr]

I like that, surviving with 1970 wages in 2008 inflation.

Close Jack, but not quite.

More like trying to run a 2008 population on 1976 supply capability.
We ain't built a new refinery in 32 years. Thank you EPA and enviromental (heavy on mental) wacos.

Gasoline Co. profits are 8.7 cents a gal.
The Feds take in $1.26 in taxes per gallon. 18 cents at the pump alone !

Now.... who really gouging us

Hi Bud,

 Well I remember pretty much the pay scales in my field from then and That's why i made that comment..Company Bucket Drivers today are still being paid those wages 10.00 to 15 dollars an hour..i related it to that..it's kinda funny.."I found a 10.00 dollar an hour Job"...LOL....silly humor OM..LOL...

But ...considering the scales...imagine feeding a family of four on that. now...Then it could be done...

Something else Bud, i really don't call it Gouging...I look at it as Price Control...or Price fixing...Wall Street related...

[WBear2GCR]

Ooog.

<snip>

A) There are many free markets. An example is the snow shoveling market. Little if any government control, no labor unions, small if any capital investment (you can borrow your dad's snow shovel). No limit on number of shovelers, many potential customers
B) See A
C) See A
D) No, the demand always exactly equals the supply at the market price. 
E) A downward shift in the market price. This happens all the time.

In the snow shoveling example, assume 5 snow shovelers and 100 customers. 2 new shovelers move in to town with no increase in the customer base. In order to garner market share the 2 new shovelers shovel for less. They begin to attract customers & the other 5 shovelers lower their price to meet the new competition. The increase in the supply of shovelers from 5 to 7 has caused a decrease in the market price.

An analogous example to the energy market would be a 5 shoveler, 100 customer market.  The number of customers increases to 150, the government prevents any new shovelers from entering the market and refuses to allow the existing 5 to hire any shoveler/employees.   With the increased demand the 5 quickly realize they can charge more for the same work as everyone wants their service.

Nice simplistic analysis - but it fails since the world economy or the US economy can not be modeled by snowshovelers. Not even those who have big rigs for that purpose.

It's not simple, and it isn't the same as a local micro economy nor a local labor situation.

                 _-_-bear

[Bacon, WA3WDR]

I'm not sure how bad things will have to get before somebody finally gets a futuristic energy source going.  But every increase in the price of conventional energy is pushing us in that direction.  When it happens, history suggests that two people will independently show up at the patent office with it, quite possibly within hours of each other.

[ab3al]

damn i thought my wife was the only person that had absolutely no common sense no brains and believes everything that NBC (owned by GE largest lobbying group on the hill by 300 percent who makes wind turbines who is pushing the green bulls$%^ to sell more stuff.)  MAN MADE GLOBAL WARMING DOES NOT EXIST... IT IS A CULT RELIGION  PERPETRATED ON THE MASSES BY THOSE WHO BOW AT THE ALTER OF CARL AND LARGE CORPORATIONS INVESTED IN ALTERNATIVE ENERGY    THAT IS STILL MORE FRICKING EXPENSIVE TO PRODUCE THAN FOSSIL FUELS.  AND WHEN THEY CANT ADVANCE THEIR AGENDA AS A BETTER CHEAPER WAY THEY SPEND 30+ YEARS STOPPING ANY INCREASE IN PRODUCTION AND THEY WONT STOP UNTIL THEY ARTIFICIALLY INFLATE THE PRICE OF FOSSIL FUELS TO THE POINT THAT THEY ARE NOW NEEDED.

BUT OK YOU CAN STAY LOCKED UP IN YOUR SHACK ON RUBY RIDGE INSISTING THAT ALIENS MOLESTED YOUR HAMSTER AND THAT THEIR WAS A SECOND GUNMAN ON THE GRASSY KNOLL,  JUST PLEASE DO THE ENTIRE WORLD THAT IS NOT SELF SUFFICIENT AND DEPENDS ON CHEAP GOODS TO SURVIVE AND LET US DRILL FOR OIL.  YOU MORONS WILL BE DEAD LONG BEFORE A COAL FIRED POWER PLANT BRINGS UPON THE END OF DAYS. 

BESIDES ONLY GOD CAN DO THAT NOT MAN

WHEW

OK FLAME ME BIOTCHES

[ka3zlr]

Yeaaa, and I'm not taken my drag pipes off my harley either...

[ka3zlr]

Besides,

Now where in any Briggs and Stratton Service manual does it describe require, or other wise mention a need for any type accepted catylicktic matrix device in lue of re oxygenating the environment....Tune for Clean Burn and maintain a Horizontal positioning and mow in a crosshatch pattern....Please keep hands and feet behind the Bar...the barmaid will be here shortly

Farmall out man.....

[WU2D]

"You can keep your Max Factor"
"I'll stay on my Tractor"


Last time this happened, back in the late 80's we decided to start mandating electrics in the US and a couple of states went as far as to put laws in place. These guarantees put Detroit in action and several EV's began to emerge, the most notable was the GM Impact. By 1993 several thousand were being market tested.

In response Opec drove the cost of a barrel of oil down to 15 dollars, the laws were recinded and the EV's were crushed and we all drove Trucks and SUV's for the next 15 years. This effectively short circuited the electric vehicle development.

This is not a free market situation.

Mike WU2D,

[W8EJO]

Our representatives address the problem:

[W8EJO]

Summary of recent congressional hearings:

[ab3al]

actually Ronald Regan collapsed the price of oil in the 80's early 90s when he annnounced over 100 billing in spending for domestic drilling and turning coal into oil.  The opec new that Regan didnt fool around.  He did what he said and said what he intended. Evident by the fact that for years Carter couldnt free some pow's and just a few days in office Regan had them back on American soil.  Opec knew that if we started producing our own oil that their largest customer would soon not need them.  so they made it so cheap that we couldnt compete. this held on through Bush senior.  But then there was Willy who saw the envirowackos as his allies.  He put the breaks on any progress Regans plan made and started us down this slippery slope.

HIppes have to gripes in the world.  Republicans are evil war mongers and they don't care about the environment.  Oh and don't forget we are Racists (explain that one to Lincoln)  They reject all religeon and theological views and replace them with science.  Ok fine you are free to do that but isnt it one of the cardianal rules of science that every action has an equal and opposite reaction.  Hell Al Gore got on the ethanol bandwagon and now after a couple of years of burning the worlds food supply the UN is calling it a crime against humanity.  Gore is nowhere to be found.  lets see burn our food supply and people starve around the world.  This type of knee jerk reaction to anything is what the green people are famous for.  Each and every time it has happened it has created a situation even worse than the original one.

Katrina flooded out new orlean.  Now some people believe that bush took orders from the mother ship to turn on the hurricane machine to kill all of the people.  Or that the federal goberment wouldnt pay to shore up the levys.  Actually back in the 60's New orleans was hit by a Cat 5 storm that did the same damage. (back then people were smart enough and not to lazy to get the hell out of dodge on their own)  In the years following the storm the army corp of engineers devised a plan to put Hydrolic storm doors across the inlets that led to lake Ponchartrain and shore up the levys to withstand a catagory 5 storm.  The money was allocated and construction was about to begin. Until a small group of shroom eating frog lickers took them to federal court and won because when the doors close Thousands of (fricking shrimp) could get caught in the doors and crushed.  The money was then divereted to welfare programs for new orleans.

the list could go on long enough to fill a legal library.  Thousands of lives destroyed many species of animals now extinct and countless billions in property damage all because a few morons that in times past would have been institutionalized thought they new what was best for us and the planet.

[Bill, KD0HG]

Let's stick to the topic of how we're personally dealing with high fuel prices and tone down the partisan politics.

Thanks.

[ab3al]

ok damn hippies 

oops did i say that out loud
lol

[ka3zlr]

Speaking for the Follically lessoned...I refuse to take hydrocarbons personal...

Therefore,..I'm placing No Blame or Inciting any Scapegoat finger pointing...

I'm just Broke...

[Bill, KD0HG]

I'm prolly in the -$ category. To be merely broke would be a blessing.

I'm outside fencing this weekend..As with livestock, not with a rapier.

Taking a Mexican Coke break while charging the DeWalt. Stronger Mexican beverages later.

[W8EJO]

Let's stick to the topic of how we're personally dealing with high fuel prices and tone down the partisan politics.
Thanks.

I'll second that.

Here's what I'm personally doing & I urge everyone who is serious about this problem to do the same or simlar:

1) I am writing, and encouraging all freinds & family to do the same, weekly both my senators and my congressman & begging them to end the moratoriums on offshore drilling, ANWAR dilling, oil shale & tar sand development, nuclear power, liquified coal production, refinery construction and asking them to end the multi-summer fuel mandate.

2) I am writing letters to the editor to as many major newspapers who will accept them encouraging the citizenry to do the same. That is to also write,call & otherwise demand that their reps  remove barriers to energy production.

3) I'll drive my GEO Metro & get 45mpg. I'll go to mass & pray to God that if I get in a wreck I don't get squashed like a bug in the thing.

4) I'll drive my F250 Power Stroke only when necessary & look into running it on used french fry oil.

5) I'll only use my little Elecraft K-2 when operating & then only off it's battery & my solar panel.

[K6JEK]

I need something I can charge. A funny thing happened with GM's EV2 electric car. Some locations built free charging stations. I don't really understand this. Why did Fry's Electronics offer free charging to EV's?  Why are there free charging stations at the local train station? But there they are still and unusued long after the EV2's were wrested from the clinging grips of the people who had them and wanted to keep them.

I haven't taken a close look.  Does anyone know what the connection was?  Was it an inductive coupling or something?  Do you suppose it would draw attention if I showed up with a truck load of lead acid batteries and plugged in?

Way back when I was in college there were enormous batteries outside the physics department.  I was told these were Navy surplus submarine batteries that the physics department used when they wanted just a whole lot of juice in a hurry.  If I could get some of those and whatever connection GM had for the EV's ...

[K3ZS]

Turning off the Ranger, Hq-140, AF-67, NC-183, Globe Chief, listening on the IC-718.
Saving them to heat with in the winter.   Traveling in the 13 year old Honda if I have to go anywhere.
Retired, its cheaper than working and driving to work and paying taxes.  PA and local government doesn't tax pensions and IRA's, exempts other income below $13K.    Spend retirement time growing the garden and the XYL cans it for winter eating.   Still need gas to cut the grass and run the tiller and money for insurance and property taxes so the chillun can get a good education.

[K3ZS]

Check this out for info on the EV1:
http://www.evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=1052

I was a consultant for AeroVironment, I met with Paul MacCready a few times, although nothing to do with the car.

[K6JEK]

RAV4 Electric prices sky rocket.  I went to eBay and typed in electric vehicle. There's a 2001 RAV4 electric selling for $55,600 , 46 bids and the bidding isn't over.  Yikes.  I'm sure that doesn't pencil out economically even with gas prices at $10/gallon.  If I could get one of those for a tenth the price or maybe two tenths I'd do it in a heartbeat.  But at $55K it's just crazy.

The write up has lots of interesting information.

[W1AEX]

Hey, I need to mow my lawn today, so I have to start up the lawnmower. My problem is that I'm sure I used up all my allotted carbon credits. Does anyone have any for sale? Just tell me where to send the cash and I will start stuffing envelopes. Thanks a lot!

Rob W1AEX

[k4kyv]

Why worry about it.  The dollarette keeps losing value and soon won't be worth the paper it's printed on anyway.

My state retirement pension from my teaching job gives an annual Cost Of Living Adjustment.  They base it on the actual calculated increase in the cost of living, up to a maximum 3% increase per year!

Everything keeps going up except wages, salaries and pensions.

[W8EJO]

Zenn gearing up for EEStor-powered car
March 31, 2008 - Exclusive
By David Ehrlich, Cleantech Group
http://media.cleantech.com/2644/zenn-gearing-up-for-eestor-powered-car

http://www.zenncars.com/

[ka3zlr]

I'm prolly in the -$ category. To be merely broke would be a blessing.

I'm outside fencing this weekend..As with livestock, not with a rapier.

Taking a Mexican Coke break while charging the DeWalt. Stronger Mexican beverages later.

Hi Bill how's the family over there OM,

 My thing is the little extra pin moneys i used to have in the wallet for the little things around the house is in jeopardy now with this Increase.... The Brat daughters are a little miffed when i put down the hammer on unnecessary running around.. women love to shop and run that's that...and it goes...I'm gona have two in college now and it's Tough...two young women in two different automobiles and two complete sets of costs..and naturally being young they're not worried about what dad takes care of cause dad takes care of it..as it shud be...I spoil my girls and I shudn't..but that's my thing and i'll deal with it..

 The concern on my end is that it doesn't blow up in the face of the Nation. I understand business i understand profit and i understand credit margin, I'm all for making a dollar brother...meaning no disrespect here...business is business...but daily change is cutting edge territory, we're getting an education in a deregulated market system here, Ok, my responsibility is to keep in tune with that change, I'm responsible for me and mine..Alright not a problem...

 But on the other end of the Balance sheet I'm running out of resources brother to keep up with this change, I can create things to aid my little Farm system here i can create bio-diesel for the tractor I can plant and I can and store food stuffs i can butcher i can do anything i want as far as sustaining life..

 But I'm running out of balance sheet resources and so is everyone else, that tells me more change is on the way...and that's the tough part Bill preparing for the next step not knowing what's in store...

 An Bill I don't think at this time extending Credit purchasing investment generating more write offs is on order, because of the unstability in our money..

They need to show us some Stability generating power..Before I can Make a Better Move...it's a conservative call now...
 
73 OM..