Warning: Creating default object from empty value in /homepages/11/d132647312/htdocs/Amfone/mkportal/include/SMF/smf_out.php on line 47
Gasoline Madness;When to Stop




 
The AM Forum
December 04, 2021, 03:20:11 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 
   Home   Help Calendar Links Staff List Gallery Login Register  
Pages: 1 [2] 3 ... 25   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Gasoline Madness;When to Stop  (Read 274972 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
WBear2GCR
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 4086


Brrrr- it's cold in the shack! Fire up the BIG RIG


WWW
« Reply #25 on: May 23, 2008, 11:28:15 AM »

There is only one bogeyman in the oil & gas market & it is not the "greedy" oil company or the "wasteful" American consumer. Both are simply operating in the existing marketplace just as we all do every day as we either produce or consume various products.

The one and only bogeyman is the RADICAL ENVIROMENTALIST. The leaders of thesese groups (Greenpeace, Enviromental Defense, Audubon Society, et al) are  hard core. They'd just as soon bring down Western civiliation to ensure a "natural" environment. I love clean water & fresh air. Iíve never met anyone who doesnít. In that sense we are all environmentalists but the supply of oil & gas & electricity is being kept artificially low by the radical environmentalists in & out of government while the demand keeps increasing.

Imagine any other market where as demand soared the supply was kept artificially stagnant. Take PCís. We all own one or more & no one could argue that demand has not soared over the last 30 years. But unlike the energy industry the supply of PCís has kept up to (and even surpassed) demand leading to lower market prices. Itís not that Intel stockholders are less greedy than Exxon stockholders. Itís that government has not artificially limited production of chips & software.

We need to tell the EnviroRads to go to hell by calling our senators & house reps & demand they open up production in this country.

End of story!

Sorry.

Simplistic analysis always yields results that appear correct but are only so because of limited scope!

We live in a complex system that must be viewed in a broad context as well as over time.

The existence of the "environmental wackos" comes not out of magical spontaneous creation, but as a reaction to the unbridled, uncontrolled excesses of business, yes?

You name it, PCBs in the rivers, Love Canal in Buffalo, etc. etc. etc.
Asbestos workers, anyone??
People, lots of them, got very very hurt. Dead hurt.

Cause-reaction-effect...

It's complex.
We've had plenty of time to prepare for this moment in history.
The LEADERSHIP has been well aware that this express train has been coming - yet we've been told to picnic on the tracks. Hope y'all enjoyed the picnic??

Stupid Jimmy Carter was correct about this matter.
Regan chose to ignore it - specifically and deliberately.
As have all the Presidents since.

We've had at least a quarter century to prepare - and so far next to nothing has been done. Ask yourself why?

Anyone with half a brain could see this day coming, right?
I did.

Ask yourself who benefits from this state of affairs?
Ask yourself what this leads to? (or might lead to?)
Ask yourself what the agenda really is... for a change.


          _-_-bear


PS. this "free marketplace" business is a great propaganda line - do you buy into it?

PPS. demand for PCs & chips has indeed soared... but irrelevant to this issue.
Logged

_-_- bear WB2GCR                   http://www.bearlabs.com
WD8BIL
Contributing
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4362


« Reply #26 on: May 23, 2008, 11:42:32 AM »

Quote
demand for PCs & chips has indeed soared... but irrelevant to this issue.

No it isn't,Bear. A free market in energy over the past 30 years would have headed off this scenerio.

Sometimes the simple answer is correct. This is not a complex issue. It IS simply suppy and demand. And as EJO points out, the supply side has been maliciously interrupted by outside forces.

Remove those forces and the market will correct itself.

Simple economics 101.
And in this case; simple is correct !
Logged
W8EJO
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 537



« Reply #27 on: May 23, 2008, 11:45:02 AM »

You name it, PCBs in the rivers, Love Canal in Buffalo, etc. etc. etc.
Asbestos workers, anyone??
People, lots of them, got very very hurt. Dead hurt.

Cause-reaction-effect...

Ask yourself who benefits from this state of affairs?
Ask yourself what this leads to? (or might lead to?)
Ask yourself what the agenda really is... for a change.


          _-_-bear


PS. this "free marketplace" business is a great propaganda line - do you buy into it?

PPS. demand for PCs & chips has indeed soared... but irrelevant to this issue.

A) On Love Canal Hysteria - Here is the offical long term study (through July,2005) results froms the NY State Dept. of Health:

Mortality Study
Summary - Love Canal residents died at the same overall rate as other New Yorkers

Cancer Study
Summary - Love Canal residents were diagnosed with slightly less cancers than other New Yorkers, with some cancer sites being higher and some lower

http://www.health.state.ny.us/environmental/investigations/love_canal/fall_2006.htm


You might ask yourself: well than what all the hysteria was about
Ask yourself who benefits from this state of affairs? Answer - Enviro Rads.
Ask yourself what this leads to? (or might lead to?) Answer - Demonification of US industry. Limits on US industrial production.
Ask yourself what the agenda really is... for a change.

B) We live in the cleanest industrialized country in the world - bar none.

C) If the Enviro Rads were serious & had some gonads, they's be over in China marching & getting in the face of the President Hu Jintao. Afterall, China is the real filthy polluter & the problem is a world problem.
Logged

Terry, W8EJO

Freedom and liberty - extremist ideas since 1776.
WA1GFZ
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 11152



« Reply #28 on: May 23, 2008, 11:48:10 AM »

when the dollar value cuts in half with $10T on the credit card the price of oil doubles. Not supply and demand...the dollar isn't worth the paper it is printed on.
All Clinton's fault

 
Logged
K3ZS
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 1036



« Reply #29 on: May 23, 2008, 11:51:26 AM »

Everyone is talking about oil and gas prices.    CNBC sez that all the gurus in all the economic sectors are talking about.   I just heard someone on the local two meter repeater driving along with a stuck open mike.    He was griping to his wife about gas prices before it timed out.   We are getting into inflation psychology that the federal reserve was worried about.    People are topping off their gas tanks whenever they can before the price increases the next day.
Logged
WA1GFZ
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 11152



« Reply #30 on: May 23, 2008, 11:51:36 AM »

Bud,
Not a free market when it comes to oil. BTW these crooks are in the process of buying up water rights. Imagine the day when you can't collect rain water.
Logged
W8EJO
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 537



« Reply #31 on: May 23, 2008, 11:54:07 AM »

People are topping off their gas tanks whenever they can before the price increases the next day.


Folks are simply "speculating" on the oil price. They are betting it will go up. That's what speculators do.
Logged

Terry, W8EJO

Freedom and liberty - extremist ideas since 1776.
W8EJO
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 537



« Reply #32 on: May 23, 2008, 11:57:31 AM »

Bud,
Not a free market when it comes to oil.

That's what we've been trying to say. Let people drill, build refineries, build nuke plants. The market's not free because our gov't won't let people produce.
Logged

Terry, W8EJO

Freedom and liberty - extremist ideas since 1776.
WA1GFZ
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 11152



« Reply #33 on: May 23, 2008, 12:03:16 PM »

and you have to ask yourself who controlls the government on these issues?
Logged
Ott
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 176



« Reply #34 on: May 23, 2008, 12:05:41 PM »

Well, Maxine Waters has a plan... she had some trouble articulating it but she has a plan none the less and when people are freezing to death this winter her plan might just see the light of day...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqjFBiPMmBE
Logged
k4kyv
Contributing Member
Don
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 10062



« Reply #35 on: May 23, 2008, 12:13:09 PM »

Bud,
Not a free market when it comes to oil. BTW these crooks are in the process of buying up water rights. Imagine the day when you can't collect rain water.

As I understand it, that has already happened.  I read somewhere, a few years ago, that Colorado has a law that makes it illegal to "divert" natural water flow, worded in such a manner that it is illegal to collect rain water by having your house gutters feed into a barrel or reservoir.
Logged

Don, K4KYV                                       AMI#5
Licensed since 1959 and not happy to be back on AM...    Never got off AM in the first place.

- - -
This message was typed using the DVORAK keyboard layout.
http://www.mwbrooks.com/dvorak
WBear2GCR
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 4086


Brrrr- it's cold in the shack! Fire up the BIG RIG


WWW
« Reply #36 on: May 23, 2008, 12:46:13 PM »

Quote
demand for PCs & chips has indeed soared... but irrelevant to this issue.

No it isn't,Bear. A free market in energy over the past 30 years would have headed off this scenerio.

Sometimes the simple answer is correct. This is not a complex issue. It IS simply suppy and demand. And as EJO points out, the supply side has been maliciously interrupted by outside forces.

Remove those forces and the market will correct itself.

Simple economics 101.
And in this case; simple is correct !


Ooog.

A) there is no "free market"
B) there never ever has been one
C) the idea of a "free market" is as much an abstract idealism as is "communism" (but different, of course)
D) no matter what, there is less supply than there is demand for oil.
E) IF for a period of time one made the supply greater than the demand, what would the result be?
E.1) basic answer is there would be insufficient incentive for conservation or efficiency, nor the development of new energy technology
F) would the demand be as great as it is if ol' Nixon & Kissinger had NOT "opened up China"?? (ask yourself about this a while...)
G) Again, why didn't we move on efficiency and conservation from back in the 70s??
H) IF you and I live long enough, you had better pray that superconductors and something akin to fusion energy sources become practical

Hunker down folks, the seas are gonna get rough for a while...

                _-_-bear
Logged

_-_- bear WB2GCR                   http://www.bearlabs.com
Bill, KD0HG
Moderator
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 2563

304-TH - Workin' it


« Reply #37 on: May 23, 2008, 01:37:16 PM »



As I understand it, that has already happened.  I read somewhere, a few years ago, that Colorado has a law that makes it illegal to "divert" natural water flow, worded in such a manner that it is illegal to collect rain water by having your house gutters feed into a barrel or reservoir.

Actually, that is true, but no one has ever been charged for doing so. The system of water rights in CO has been driven by our semi-arid climate. You can (sort of) live without gasoline, but you can't live without water.

 A farmer down the local river basin 50 miles away might have a legal right to X amount of water because his land was first irrigated 150 years ago. He legally owns the water in Colorado. If I were to divert rainwater from my home's gutters from its natural course into that river, then I am technically stealing from that farmer.

Of course, if I watered my garden with that diverted rainwater, it would eventually flow into the river, anyway, so no harm done. But if it was a substantial amount of water and I kept it to create a private lake, then I could get nailed.

Where the legal battles really happen is where someone might drill a well to irrigate their crops, and it can be proven that the water in that well leaked out of a nearby river or reservoir- Water belonging to others. The river goes dry, the farmer with senior water rights complains, so the well gets shut down, or the person who drilled it is ordered to buy water for the affected farmer.

Water ain't cheap around here, either. $10,000-$50,000 per acre-foot. When I built my home 10 years ago, a 3/4" water tap from the local water district cost $3,000. Now the same tap is $20,000.  They have to buy wholesale water rights to compensate for every new tap.

To make a long story short, that's what happens when the demand for a commodity exceeds the availability. The system of water laws in the west is a direct consequence of the old days of "Whiskey's for drinkin', water's for fighting over.."

This might seem like a screwy way to have things- Where someone owns almost every drop of water that falls. But it works..The cost forces people to generally conserve, and municipalities and farmers have the legal right to the water that they own, guaranteeing their expected supply. Beats pulling out the Colt .45s at the fence line.

Logged
W3RSW
Contributing
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 3306


Rick & "Roosevelt"


« Reply #38 on: May 23, 2008, 02:34:37 PM »

Yep, supply and demand has always been the real driver. - Catches up to us sooner or later. Entire civilizations have come and gone fighting natural law.

And I've read a lot of these posts about as long as I could without responding.. yeah, I know I'm repeating a lot.

They're crying for help in the oil patch.  $50 /hr. and up.  Riggers, derrickmen, drivers, equipment operators, you name it, and these are the unskilled and semi-skilled starters.

The next labor rung up, drillers and tool pushers (overseers of 4 or 5 rigs run by drillers) are unobtanium.  Big signing bonuses, the works.

Professionals, - production, drilling, reservoir, processing plant, logging and well treatment engineers are making well over $100k.  Good ones there are unobtanium too.  And we're not even talking management compensation yet.

Energy co's simply can't find good workers. The oil boom /bust cycle used to be approx. 20 yrs.,( solar cycle there? Grin) but the last quiet boom's been going on since '82.  The Boom/bust cycle has historically washed out the experienced labor.  Believe it or not, every time oil crashes to $10 when it was $40.... or $30 when it bubbled to $60, good labor and entire phalanxes of professionals bail.  So here we are at $130.  I guarantee you, no oil co. is planning future infrastructure at much over a $45/bbl. revenue stream right now.

Opec knows this.  A good five year plan for Opec forcasting (or setting price in their case) in $/bb. would be $100, $100, $10, $30, $150.   Keep us guessing; keep us on the free flowin' teat.

So, keeps oil co's. really guessing... just about every time production of oil shales, or gassification of coal, building a state of the art refinery seems economical, the price/bbl. plunges.  No new plants built much beyond the small pilot stage.  Fluid bed gassification of coal, nuc. energy, you name it could make us energy independent.  Just start building several and see what happens.
      Yep, very cheaply produced oil is politically priced and the world's held hostage because uninterrupted flow calls for a very low threshold of implied threat, be it from terrorists or a super state's military threat of oil patch takeover.  That's one of the beauties of a free market, believe it or not.

I'm not even going to object to the environmental aspects of building new plants because much of modern new construction can/would and does go to countries with less stringent requirements.  I'll reserve vitriol for environmentalism running amok for another board.

So where are the profits going?  Paying down debt. And, yes, paying dividends.  Even your typical electric utility has 60/40 debt ratios.  .. let alone a much more speculative company such as an oil or nat. gas producer.
 
Sure the major oil co. CEO's are filthy rich.  So there are, what, 200 of them?  How many multimillionaire ball players are there? Movie stars? Lesser stars? Golf pros?   How many plain ol' Fortune 500 and lesser rank CEO's? CFO's, Prez's, VP's, Directors, etc.   Right, several hundred thousand to millions.  Managers making over $250k?... A bunch.

So the US based oil co's have made $46 billion in 'excess profit.' Your friendly, rapidly converging on communism, US govt's annual take is $ three trillion!   That's your money, free and clear?  No, -taxed and confiscated.

Any star is simply what a free market thinks they're worth.  Russian atheletes couldn't wait to defect....  Now they've joined the R. mafia.  Ah the beauty of private enterprise.

About those oil patch labor shortages... Well, you'll probably have to move to a "dirty" oil producing state or country, learn new skills, get your hands dirty and work very hard to realize commensurate income.  The free market generates income; governments re-distrubute it (after an ever increasing administrative and overhead fee, of course.)

So yes, the stock market is where the forward thinking average joe can realize a little of the wealth.

To "top it all off," you think $4.00 is expensive fuel? We run on a very cheap energy world right now.  When a society can afford to ship megatons of raw materials overseas, manufacture stuff for pennies per pound and ship it right back, complete with expensive packaging, distribution, sales and retail channels, the energy must be cheap!  When society can justify building 16 lane highways, rivers of constantly flowing traffic, millions of bb's/day consumed for personal transportation, 250 million dwt high seas freighters, Lear jets... heating or cooling swimming pool water, and on and on then we simply, by definition, live in a cheap energy world.

Ask your grandparents who had no loose cash, barterered or grew much of their own food and with kids who had real chores what it's like to live in an expensive energy world.

Somewhat simplistically, but anyone using this board that isn't sitting in a library or other free internet provider somewhere has no real grasp of what it's like to be poor.   I used to complain that 'day old' bread was stale... my mother simpy gave me a withering stare and said, "you have no idea what stale bread really is."

Saving fuel money on your $10-Grand bike, er oops, your $3k scooter? Well, go to Darfur, look around and count your blessings.  You live in undoubtly the largest class of very wealthy world citizens that ever historically existed.  You've been made to feel poor by egalitarianism run amok, by self-superior parties, aided by media committed to making you feel poor.
Logged

RICK  *W3RSW*
W8EJO
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 537



« Reply #39 on: May 23, 2008, 02:54:04 PM »

Ooog.

A) there is no "free market"
B) there never ever has been one
C) the idea of a "free market" is as much an abstract idealism as is "communism" (but different, of course)
D) no matter what, there is less supply than there is demand for oil.
E) IF for a period of time one made the supply greater than the demand, what would the result be?

A) There are many free markets. An example is the snow shoveling market. Little if any government control, no labor unions, small if any capital investment (you can borrow your dad's snow shovel). No limit on number of shovelers, many potential customers
B) See A
C) See A
D) No, the demand always exactly equals the supply at the market price.  
E) A downward shift in the market price. This happens all the time.

In the snow shoveling example, assume 5 snow shovelers and 100 customers. 2 new shovelers move in to town with no increase in the customer base. In order to garner market share the 2 new shovelers shovel for less. They begin to attract customers & the other 5 shovelers lower their price to meet the new competition. The increase in the supply of shovelers from 5 to 7 has caused a decrease in the market price.

An analogous example to the energy market would be a 5 shoveler, 100 customer market.  The number of customers increases to 150, the government prevents any new shovelers from entering the market and refuses to allow the existing 5 to hire any shoveler/employees.   With the increased demand the 5 quickly realize they can charge more for the same work as everyone wants their service.

Logged

Terry, W8EJO

Freedom and liberty - extremist ideas since 1776.
K6JEK
Contributing
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1173


RF in the shack


« Reply #40 on: May 23, 2008, 04:00:01 PM »

Now more than ever <whatever I've been saying>

That is the natural response to any shock. We saw it big time after 9/11. Everyone from every side of every issue shouted "See what I've been saying? Now will you believe me?" The trouble is we were all saying different things. We couldn't all be right, could we? We're seeing it now with the price of fuel going up. Whatever the pet peeve was before, it's a bigger pet now. 

Have you noticed it on this board? The radical environmentalists are to blame. The current administration.   The greedy oil companies. Taxes. The Saudis. I wonder if any of us listen to anyone else or if we just get more adamant in our existing views.

What has given me the most solace is taking matters into my own hands.  We were lucky to be in the market for a car a couple of years ago and bought a Prius -- 45 to 50 MPG.  If I needed a big truck, I'd get an old Ford diesel and fill up at the local diner like Bill does. We put solar panels on the roof, increased insulation, and are replacing the old, tired furnace with a heat pump.  As much as I can, I'm edging out of the energy economy.  It sure feels great.
Logged
WA1GFZ
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 11152



« Reply #41 on: May 23, 2008, 04:14:08 PM »

Well, I've been doing that since the 70s OM. I put R60 in the attic in 1983.
1984 I added an inner second wall. 1985 passive solar. Not ready for an overpriced hybrid yet.....
Logged
WA5VGO
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 150


« Reply #42 on: May 23, 2008, 04:16:47 PM »

Quote
More like trying to run a 2008 population on 1976 supply capability.
We ain't built a new refinery in 32 years. Thank you EPA and enviromental (heavy on mental) wacos.

This is nothing but political rhetoric. True, a grass roots refinery has not been built in the U.S. in 32 years, but the existing refineries have made major expansions. In 1970 the U.S. refining capacity was about 12MBD and refineries operated at about 92% rates. In 2008 the capacity is 17.4MBD and refineries are operating at about 85% capacity.

Darrell


Logged
WA1GFZ
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 11152



« Reply #43 on: May 23, 2008, 04:19:53 PM »

How many small ones were purchased by the big oil giants so they could shut them down to control the supply.
Logged
K6JEK
Contributing
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1173


RF in the shack


« Reply #44 on: May 23, 2008, 04:26:27 PM »

Well, I've been doing that since the 70s OM. I put R60 in the attic in 1983.
1984 I added an inner second wall. 1985 passive solar. Not ready for an overpriced hybrid yet.....
Very cool. I live in Silicon Valley (I was here before the silicon).   The designers of the houses out here must have bought the "too cheap to meter" hype -- designed to use juice.  I've been retrofitting just to get to reasonable. I'm jealous of the passive solar but if I did that, I'd be living in a closet. 

Jon

PS:  At the time, the Prius wasn't expensive, as car prices go.
Logged
Bill, KD0HG
Moderator
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 2563

304-TH - Workin' it


« Reply #45 on: May 23, 2008, 04:30:25 PM »

The hottest cars on Ebay right now are the 10 to 15 year old Geo Metros and Prizms. Prius mileage.

My mom's Geo got over 40 MPG, bought new at a Chevy dealer for about $9K and they're now asking $7K for them, more than twice last year. LOL

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GEO_Metro
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Sprint

Why they can't start manufacturing the things again is beyond me. They'd sell like hotcakes in today's market.
Logged
Opcom
Patrick J. / KD5OEI
Contributing
Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 7923



WWW
« Reply #46 on: May 23, 2008, 04:35:22 PM »

the enviro-fascists would like us all to live like the wretched liberal crack-pot idiots they are. Then they could feel good about themselves because no one would be better than they are. And that's what it is really all about, isn't it, self-esteem?


* liberal_idiot.jpg (90.59 KB, 389x508 - viewed 721 times.)

* beyondcrack.gif (57.6 KB, 639x770 - viewed 718 times.)
Logged

Radio Candelstein - Flagship Station of the NRK Radio Network.
Bill, KD0HG
Moderator
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 2563

304-TH - Workin' it


« Reply #47 on: May 23, 2008, 04:39:03 PM »

I think we are attributing WAY too much power to the few crackpots on the fringes of society here.
Logged
WA5VGO
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 150


« Reply #48 on: May 23, 2008, 04:40:25 PM »

How many small ones were purchased by the big oil giants so they could shut them down to control the supply.

Actually, just the opposite is true. The major oil companies have been spinning off refineries that have been picked up by independents. The largest refiner in North America isn't BP or Exxon or Shell, etc. It's Valero, and independent refiner with no production.

Darrell
Logged
W8EJO
Member

Offline Offline

Posts: 537



« Reply #49 on: May 23, 2008, 04:41:54 PM »

Have you noticed it on this board? The radical environmentalists are to blame..........


Activists Repeatedly Fend Off Attempts to Open Arctic Refuge to Oil Drilling
http://wwf.worldwildlife.org/site/PageServer?pagename=can_results_arctic_refuge
Logged

Terry, W8EJO

Freedom and liberty - extremist ideas since 1776.
Pages: 1 [2] 3 ... 25   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

AMfone - Dedicated to Amplitude Modulation on the Amateur Radio Bands
 AMfone © 2001-2015
Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
Page created in 0.072 seconds with 18 queries.