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Author Topic: Fuel Oil  (Read 78222 times)
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N0WVA
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« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2008, 06:59:05 PM »

Gee, it looks like people are finally starting to wake up.
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K6JEK
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RF in the shack


« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2008, 07:29:42 PM »

After a couple of years of just being PO'd about it, our government's inconsistent policies and the idea of sending money to our enemies every time I tank up, I did a few things on my own.   This has greatly improved my attitude:   
 
2) I took advantage of the California and Federal subsidies and put a 5 KW PV system on the roof. My electric bill is now zero. In fact, it would be negative if they paid for putting more into the grid than you take out as they do in Germany; 
 
Jon

Jon,

What did the PV system end up costing you after the rebates? Can you show some photos
of the installation?

Pete
Pete,

The one they recommended was a 3.3KW system that would have cost $18K after rebates.   But I went crazy and got a bigger, fancier system, 24 SunPower 205's with an RF-quiet inverter.   That system cost $28K after rebates.   

The SunPower stuff costs more than other panels but gave me the maximum power in the roof space.  I could fit no more than the 24 in the spot I had.   

I don't have pictures.   They lay flat on the roof and are in fact invisible from the ground.

http://www.sunpowercorp.com/Products-and-Services/Residential-Solar-Panels.aspx

Hey, it was a piece of change but unlike the new car we had to buy, this actually pays back.

Jon
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k4kyv
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Don
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« Reply #27 on: May 11, 2008, 12:54:15 AM »

1) When my wife's car needed replacing we bought a Prius, a surprisingly comfortable and practical car.   We consistently get 45 - 50 MPG; 

I like the boxy shape of the Scion - very efficient for hauling stuff with minimum footprint.  But I wonder how is it for carrying weight.  A friend of mine had one and I examined it.  It looked kind of flimsy to me, like a couple of good heavy transformers would have it dragging the ground.

If I thought it would haul the weight when called on to do so occasionally, I would buy one next time I need a replacement car.  I like something small, easy to park and cheap to run, and don't much GAF about the styling, but I like to be able to haul anything I can make to fit inside without worrying about overloading the engine or suspension.  I once permanently inverted the leaf springs on a Corolla after hauling a bunch of radio stuff the 1200 mile journey here from the Boston area.

As for the Prius,  I wonder how reliable the technology is over the long term.
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Don, K4KYV                                       AMI#5
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Bill, KD0HG
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« Reply #28 on: May 11, 2008, 05:31:08 PM »

Why hasn't there been more attention to geothermal?
I mean, drilling holes deep enough so that water boils.
Heck, we're sitting on top of a planet full of molten iron.

Talk about a win-win...No waste products.

I know zilch about that sort of engineering. How deep? Cost? Do we have the steel and technology to do it? Is it practical? If not, what do we need to do? Better offshore where the earth's crust is thinner? How hot is it inside those offshore oil wells?




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ka3zlr
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« Reply #29 on: May 11, 2008, 05:42:03 PM »

From what little bit of reading I've done as far as Oil...Montana and North Dakota are looking very wet for the drillers. The Bakken Formation is on the radar view it's something like a 200,000 mile Formation, a possibility of 3 to 4.3 billion barrels of oil in place...Get-r-Done I say....

73.

Oh, Another thing...as far as importing...this country imports 2/3's of it's oil. and that culminates over 40 supplying countries, not just OPEC for the record...




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WA1GFZ
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« Reply #30 on: May 11, 2008, 06:11:05 PM »

Go ahead put a couple more oil men in the White House.
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ka3zlr
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« Reply #31 on: May 11, 2008, 06:35:31 PM »

LOL....Imagine if they Canceled the elections...what a rush that would be... Grin
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Bill, KD0HG
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« Reply #32 on: May 11, 2008, 08:25:31 PM »

From what little bit of reading I've done as far as Oil...Montana and North Dakota are looking very wet for the drillers. The Bakken Formation is on the radar view it's something like a 200,000 mile Formation, a possibility of 3 to 4.3 billion barrels of oil in place...Get-r-Done I say....

73.

Oh, Another thing...as far as importing...this country imports 2/3's of it's oil. and that culminates over 40 supplying countries, not just OPEC for the record...






There's enough Colorado Oil shale alone to match the outpoot of the Saudis. Hundreds of years worth of petroleum. But the environmental consequences of extracting it would be terrible. Enormous quantities of water (in an arid region) and the need to build large power plants to cook the oil out of the rock. Pollution and cutting off water to the rest of the west.

No one wants to be in a national sacrifice zone. That's where the ranchers turn into environmentalists. Your rights as a land owner to trash your place should end at my property line, but you should have a right to develop your own resources, too.

As it is right now, drilling is ruining the water table in places in an arid west. Water wells are turning into fizzy things with unpotable water- Just like back in Ohio and Pennsylvania a hundred years ago. Oh, the water's still there all right, but..Whiskey's for drinkin', water's for fighting over.

 How do you fairly balance all of that?

We can't drill our way out of this mess. Our Alaska oil from "our" federal land is already mostly going to Asia, China, Korea and Japan. It's not being sold to run them Little Deuce Coupes in California. Can we do anything about that? Nope.

I'd be 100% for drilling anywhere in Alaska as log as the law stipulated that the oil recovered from *our* federal lands was to be exclusively shipped to, refined and used in the USA, by commercial interests and the military. Give the oil companies tax and lease relief to compensate them. . That's the only way we'd get price relief. And it's the same philosophy that almost every other country in the world would have. Is that gonna happen? Not if Exxon/Shell/Mobil has its way. It goes to the highest bidder, at the most profit, courtesy of our American lawmakers. . Screw the USA for the extra profit.
OK, fine. Then we don't drill on our federal land.
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WA1GFZ
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« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2008, 08:38:50 PM »

How about we strip mine oil in Iraq with nukes.....after we pull the fine American forces out. 
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K6JEK
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« Reply #34 on: May 11, 2008, 08:46:12 PM »


Oh, Another thing...as far as importing...this country imports 2/3's of it's oil. and that culminates over 40 supplying countries, not just OPEC for the record...

Here are the top 14 oil exporters for 2006.   I haven't yet found data for 2007.  In millions of barrels per day:

1. Saudi Arabia, 8.65
2. Russia, 6.57
3. Norway, 2.54
4. Iran, 2.52
5. United Arab Emirates, 2.52
6. Venezuela, 2.20
7. Kuwait, 2.15
8. Nigeria, 2.15
9. Algeria, 1.85
10. Mexico 1.68
11. Libya, 1.52
12, Iraq, 1.43
13. Angola, 1.36
14. Kazakhstan 1.11

All fine, stable allies of the United States.   Small potatoes after that.

We are the most addicted to this supply importing 12.22 MB, about two and half times second place China at 5.10.  I'm sure China's figures are higher for 2007.

The data come from here: http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0922041.html

I'm no fan of our second gilded age national government (of the People, by the Lobbyists, for the Profit of global corporations), but George Washington could come back from the dead and Congress could be replaced with honorable people and we'd still be faced with this reality:

1) We consume much more oil than we can produce
2) Those who have it to sell are not great pals of ours
3) The price is only going up because of China and India competing with us for the oil

Why haven't we done anything about this precarious situation? I think it's because those who profit from the trade have a lot of influence and because in the short term it's fun and comfortable for all of us to just keep doing what we're doing.
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K1JJ
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« Reply #35 on: May 11, 2008, 09:28:03 PM »

Why hasn't there been more attention to geothermal?
I mean, drilling holes deep enough so that water boils.
Heck, we're sitting on top of a planet full of molten iron.


Hi Bill,

About 1700 miles deep to the molten stuff, but not that far to make water boil.  Though, drilling into a "bulged up" area like a volcano would shorten it tremendously.

Take a look at this picture and explanation:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/11/061126121122.htm

And how about the hot springs in parts of Yellowstone Park? That is a rare and protected area, but is the right idea near the surface.


This type of thinking starts the path towards the three classifications of very advanced technological civilizations.

1) The first phase is a civilization taking energy from the center of the planet.
2) Next mining energy directly from the sun's surface.
3) Lastly, mining energy from the center of the galaxy, namely the black hole.

I can invision the first step is to build a massive co-generation plant on top of a semi-stable volcano and tap that.


But in the meantime we'll burn fossil fuels and split atoms.

Looks like we're still a bunch of Johnny Novice cave dwellers for now ... :-)


T



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« Reply #36 on: May 11, 2008, 09:30:40 PM »

LOL, Tom.

Or is it Sagan the II?

Good hearing from you. Hope all is well.
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Bill, KD0HG
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« Reply #37 on: May 11, 2008, 09:51:05 PM »

And a nother thing:

Our internal combustion engines are only about 20% efficient. The best, the large diesels that power ships might be 50% efficient.

They can only be as efficient as the thermal cycle allows. The hotter they can run, the more efficient they become. This would require more expensive materials, ceramics and etc.

Anyone else see where this leads to?

Imagine doubling the efficiency of our national vehicle fleet.

The reason we use 4-cycle gasoline engines is because they're they cheapest, mass-produced means of propulsion out there.  There are things such as the 6-cycle engine that are so efficient that they need no cooling systems. The steam era lasted a century, it's time for the cast-iron internal combustion engine to do the same.

A trillion dollars or so in research grants ought to solve the problem..

Or exempt the auto companies from anti-trust regulations so that they can collectively work together on the next generation of efficient vehicle engine. Win-Win at no cost.
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K6JEK
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« Reply #38 on: May 11, 2008, 10:46:25 PM »

And a nother thing:
...

Imagine doubling the efficiency of our national vehicle fleet.

A trillion dollars or so in research grants ought to solve the problem..


Let's see.   The Prius gets 50 MPG, tank after tank.   The car it replaced was lucky to get 25 overall.  That's double.   I know this doesn't solve the general case but I don't want all of that trillion dollars just a small percentage of it.
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Bill, KD0HG
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« Reply #39 on: May 11, 2008, 11:10:06 PM »

And a nother thing:
...

Imagine doubling the efficiency of our national vehicle fleet.

A trillion dollars or so in research grants ought to solve the problem..


Let's see.   The Prius gets 50 MPG, tank after tank.   The car it replaced was lucky to get 25 overall.  That's double.   I know this doesn't solve the general case but I don't want all of that trillion dollars just a small percentage of it.

There's no reason why we couldn't devise 100 MPG Priuses with a quantum leap in engine technology. Imagine what Toyota, Ford and GM could come up together with if properly motivated to develop ceramic engines or whatever.

BTW, those Toyotas are selling like the proverbial hotcakes around here. I feel bad because the domestic manufacturers completely blew it on the interest in such a vehicle. Even Toyota thought it was a gamble. Not appropriate for me or what I need a vehicle to do. I drive a 7,700# 2002 F-250 diesel 4X4 usually running on 50% recycled restaurant grease. Right out of the fryers at the local drive-through. And even that is starting to get pricey. But I've seen up to 23 MPG out of it, empty, cruise locked at 60 and a tail wind. My previous '96 pickup got 10 MPG, uphill, downhill, in town and on the road.

The wife drives the 2000 Ford Focus 5-speed. Bought it new. 100K miles on it now. Fast enough not to get creamed when merging onto the freeway. Not a hybrid, but it consistently gets around 30 MPG. The Grand Cherokee stays at home now, unless the WX is nasty. Honestly, the Focus is fun to drive. Hauls arse and handles the roads very well. After so many years of driving large vehicles, I forgot how much fun one can be.

A guy I work with drives a Honda Insight hybrid,  claims to get near 77 MPG out of it if he keeps his foot out of it. Unreal. Weird looking streamlined car, fender skirts and all.
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K6JEK
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« Reply #40 on: May 12, 2008, 02:17:17 AM »

Bill,

The 50% restaurant grease you're using.   Are you gathering it, filtering it etc. yourself or does someone else do that and you get it from them?   Do the restaurants charge for it or are they still happy to have someone take it off their hands?   

With diesel at $4.00+ out here, I'd expect people with diesels to be fighting with each other over the french fry oil.

Jon   
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ka3zlr
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« Reply #41 on: May 12, 2008, 03:13:41 AM »

I have been experimenting with my own little cooker over here in ZED.L.R. land it's fairly efficient i use this fellers method here:

http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor5.html

It works, and the garden tractor preforms as it should.

Now as far as a personal vehicle, i wouldn't own a diesel pickup anything I listen to the guys at work moaning their complaints about them it was enough for me not to buy one, my little Ranger does a pretty good job for what i need. I do like the stacks that some owners are putting in their beds though, looks kinda neat and sounds good...Pickup trucks with Smoke Stacks... Cool..


At this point as I have said before in different threads, the problems with the infrastructure are a given and Not changing anytime soon, and No One Person is going to save grace and change the way business is done today...No Way...Buisness never had it So Good...

The problem is the value of our currency and the little buying power we have. Change the Value, Change the Buying Power...It's that simple...

Who cares about the demand and the mechanics..The Suppliers don't care... Grin

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Jerry-n5ugw
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« Reply #42 on: May 12, 2008, 07:24:44 AM »

The future electricity which will run my Am gear will be from the new Nuclear Safe Plants like the Westinghouse AP100 or the GE ESBWR plants which are currently either approved or in approval by the NRC. Plans are for 32 new plants in the US. If the Gov'ment does'nt screw around to long. Their last comment was" we don't have enough qualified reviewers". If they would tell the industry, " you can build either an approved AP1000 or ESBWR only the we could get the show on the road. As for OIL. Drill this country and build refineries on closed bases. Forget the corn based ethonal, use sugar cane and beets. They make more and better quality. Turn every swamp into a cane or beet field. Let get out of the import fule business and quit giving food stuffs away.
We need to be protectionist.
That way I can use my AM radio to hear the whining of the rest of the world about the food shortage...
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WA1GFZ
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« Reply #43 on: May 12, 2008, 09:08:36 AM »

Right on Jerry!
The traitors need to stop sending our money and jobs away.
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K3ZS
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« Reply #44 on: May 12, 2008, 09:28:56 AM »

Geothermal heat-pumps don't need a hot underground spring to operate.    Many are in use around PA.    They operate at the same efficiency as a regular heat-pump as if the air was at a constant temperature of 55 degrees (or whatever your year round ground temperature is).   The further the air conditioning/heating temperature is from 55 the better the efficiency is compared to an air heat-pump.   If you are heating with oil anywhere, it is cheaper to use a heatpump combined with electric.   The geothermal uses electric for quick heating if you turn up the thermostat more that 1 degree.    IF you just keep the heat at a constant temperature, you never need the backup heat.
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Bill, KD0HG
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« Reply #45 on: May 12, 2008, 10:45:04 AM »

Bill,

The 50% restaurant grease you're using.   Are you gathering it, filtering it etc. yourself or does someone else do that and you get it from them?   Do the restaurants charge for it or are they still happy to have someone take it off their hands?   

With diesel at $4.00+ out here, I'd expect people with diesels to be fighting with each other over the french fry oil.

Jon   

I've been getting it for the last several years from a local rural diner. Pay them $1/gallon, I just pick it up in those 5-gallon 'totes' that they get the oil in, they only have to open the fryer drains and re-fill the containers.

I filter it through a couple sheets of paper towel in a metal funnel. Winter is a problem when it gels.

I expect this to end someday soon, you're right, collecting and recycling fry oil into biodiesel is becoming big business. The amount of fry oil that the McDonald's in California alone go through is staggering.

Even though Rudy Diesel used peanut oil for fuel (no Exxon back then), some modern diesels are more adaptable to burning straight vegetable oil than others. The Ford/International Powerstrokes since the 80s have the heads drilled with internal passages to feed the injectors, so the fuel is always hot. They also have an electric heater in the fuel filter bowl. Other diesels that use the traditional external high-pressure steel fuel lines leading to each injector are not so successful when it's cold outside.

Another issue is that the latest diesels use some outrageous injection pressures to improve efficiency. Now they're switching to piezoelectric powered injectors instead of the old mechanical ones to get some 50,000 PSI of fuel atomization. There's reports that vegetable oil polymerizes under those extreme pressures, ie, plugging up injectors. So you don't want to use more than 20%-30% of veggie oil. Especially important in the winter, but since late 2002, I have never, ever had a problem running up to 50%, even near zero F temperatures. Many truck diesels have electric block heaters, too.

The best bet right now is to use a late 90s or earlier diesel which just don't care what you dump into the fuel tank. Just filter the lumps out and let the high pressure fuel filter do the rest.

Sometimes Sam's or Costco have sales on bulk generic vegetable oil, usually it's soy or canola. There's no sales tax in Colorado on food. I'll grab 10 gallons if I happen to be there for something else and funnel it into my truck right in the parking lot. I get some funny looks...
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WA1QHQ
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« Reply #46 on: May 12, 2008, 12:00:09 PM »

My oil company sent a letter recently with an interesting proposal to lower oil prices. They suggest that oil can only be purchased by those that can actually take delivery of the oil, in other words remove oil from the commodities market. I doubt this will ever happen since it is so openly traded internationally but it does get you to thinking why the price is actually as high as it is, supply and demand do not change prices this rapidly but panick speculation does.

As far as the value of the dollar goes, true our deficit is not helping things but alot of the dollar devaluation has to do with the subprime loan disaster and it is now becoming apparent that this is not just a US problem it is just that other countries banks have been covering up their bad loans. I just heard that Credit Suise has come forth with their own data last week and they have risen to the top of the banks with bad loans. As pressure comes to bare on other countries to come clean you will see the value of the dollar rise against the Euro and other currencies and hopefully we will get a little relief in oil prices.

There was one lesson learned during the oil crises of the 80s and that was how effective raising CAFE standards were in reduceing gasoline demand. To facilitate this Detrioit rapidly adopted fuel injection and sophisticated engine management systems. This really made a difference and the right technology (powerful microprocessors) was becoming available at the right time. Today to get a similar improvement in fuel mileage technology to reduce vehicle weight while still maintaining safety such as advanced composites will have to be used. Other technologies such as Kinetic Energy storage devices are almost ready for mass production. I am not a fan of hybrid electric vehicles since they are manufactured at a monetary loss and the batteries are considered to be hazardous waste as well as requiring considerable energy to manufacture. We burn dirty coal to generate the electricity to fuel them so how good can they be for the environment.

Finally I think that if you can personally get along without driving a large truck or SUV for your daily transport, Cadillac Escalades and Lincoln Navigators drive me nuts, then you should do it. I do like the idea of changing the insurance laws so that you are not double billed if you own two vehicles, this would encourage those that need a work truck to drive it when necessary and then to drive a more economical vehicle when possible.
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WA1GFZ
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« Reply #47 on: May 12, 2008, 12:14:29 PM »

Mark,
My Rep. Joe Courtney is part of a bill to eliminate the skimmer trade in oil where you have to actually buy it if you trade in it. I have had a number of emails with him and appears to be on the ball. I wonder how bad it will need to get before the bill is actually considered. I think it was introduced 3 or 4 months ago. Many stations went past $4 in Ct. the past few days.
Might have for trash day at the White House to get anything done.


He does disagree with me on CFL lights but I am happy with his views on other subjects. I need to mail him on last night 60 minutes and the wet backs wanting to sue this country for free health care while they are in jail waiting for deportation. At Ellis Island they didn't keep you around for years they sent you away. 
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k4kyv
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Don
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« Reply #48 on: May 12, 2008, 01:01:04 PM »

90% of this immigration nonsense is just a wedge issue to distract the public from the real issues like the increasing costs of fuel, heating oil and food, and the devaluation of the dollar(ette).

I'm perfectly happy to see "wetbacks" out there cleaning toilets, harvesting tobacco and hauling the garbage from McBarfald's to the landfill.

Oh, I better run.  Time for the news.  Gotta catch the latest episode of the Brittney Spears meltdown, and see if Hillary is still enjoying her newly acquired taste for beer.
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Don, K4KYV                                       AMI#5
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« Reply #49 on: May 12, 2008, 01:07:22 PM »

Check this out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zu-Hg6ntgqI
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Terry, W8EJO

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