The death of the flea market

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

Here's the cool thing. We don't need no stinking ham fest to socialize.

[k4kyv]

I think the demise of most hamfests is a good thing. There were far too many and they were nothing more than commercial events centered totally on money. Hamfests were originally a social event where humans actually interacted face-to-face without money as the impetus. But in the 50's, hamfests began a long decline where it became all about getting a good deal and less about socializing with other hams. The more the money driven fests fade away, the better off we'll be.

You got some of the details wrong.  In the 50's, hamfests turned from being coat-and-tie affairs in expensive hotels and convention centres, and became great places to find parts and used stuff at the fleamarket, much of which would otherwise have been thrown away.  These great outdoor tailgate parties made it possible to get on the air without spending a great deal of money with the commercial vendors, and to find needed items long gone from the magazine ads and catalogues.  I could never have built my homebrew station  without the  hamfest flea markets.

The gradual decline of hamfests is manifest at Dayton.  Once upon a time, you could decide at the  last minute to attend, load up some "junk" you no longer needed that was taking up valuable space, arrive at the  hamfest and ask for a flea market space expecting to pay about $15 extra for a vendor's ticket.  As a buyer, you could always count on some great finds, often at near give-away prices, and on leaving the hamfest with the oddball transformer or capacitor you had been looking for to finish off some homebrew project. 

But gradually, it became more and more a money-oriented event.  What is the cost of a vendors' space nowadays?  $35? $50?  And you  have to apply for it weeks in advance.  No more last minute decision to pass some of your stuff on to someone else who needs it.  As a result you see fewer and fewer individuals who come to open up the trunks of their cars to sell a few goodies while they shop for more to replace what they sell.  What you mostly see now are the professional hamfesters who do it as a business,  making the circuit in travel trailers to display the same goods at hamfest after hamfest, year after year, often selling with a bad attitude at highly inflated prices.  The tubes, sockets, large bread-slicers, audio transformers, power transformers, oil caps, panel meters, bakelite dials, transmitting micas, rack panels, homebrew rigs, antique and vintage parts, etc. are seen  less and less, while second-hand "modern gear" shows up priced as new, along with computer junk and all kinds of trinkets that you would expect to see at a general flea market but not at a  hamfest.  You may find plenty of "vintage" gear, but it is likely to be way overpriced.  Tubes and  high quality audio transformers are conspicuous by their absence because US and Asian audiophools have already scooped them up.  A  large number of these vendors are retirees for whom hamfests have become a second career to supplement their SS and pension income, and they usually have little interest in dealing with small parts or anything else they think won't turn around a great deal of bucks.

Another thing that is ruining the traditional hamfests is that so many have turned from outdoor tailgating affairs to indoor events where you  have to lug all your stuff from a parking area to your vendor's booth inside.  That discourages heavy and/or large items like kilowatt size transformers and AM transmitters.

In recent years I have had better luck at small local events.  One thing that I still like at all of them large and small is the opportunity to meet in person some of the people I talk to over the air.  But hamfests are becoming less and less a cost-effective way to acquire parts and used equipment.

BTW, does anyone remember the Cincinnati "Stag" Hamfest at the old Strickers Grove?

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

You and I are saying the same thing. In the 50's we had the rise of the flea markets and the pursuite of the almightly dollar. That was the beginning of the demise of hamfests. You were too busy getting "good deals" to realize it.

[Pete, WA2CWA]

What really made my day at Timonium was seeing the kids peck at the old Royal typewriter I had for sale.  You would not believe the big smiles they gave when the margin bell clanged! I'm glad it didn't sell.  After a few recent threads on the CW reflector, I think I'm going  to give "mill copying" another go!!

I sold my Royal portable typewriter (Mom and Dad bought it for me when I was in 8th grade) at Sellersville several years ago. Labeled the sign for it as a "manual printer". Kids loved it and it found a new home with one of them.

[n2bix]

Steve ,I do most of my socializing "on the air" not at a hamfest. To me,a hamfest is for finding the many old parts for my boat anchors that i can no longer find at radio shack or elseware easily.It isn't about being cheap ,although i like a bargain as much as the next guy does.I will generally ask what is wanted for a piece of equipment and if the owner indicates that it is negotiable I will make him an offer. If he does not,I will either give him his price or walk away if i think the price is too high.I also like to look at what i am buying up close and talk to the owner to find out if their are issues with the equipment and possibly operate it. If i see a familiar call sign at the event , i will allways walk up and have an eyeball QSO.Randy

[Pete, WA2CWA]

The gradual decline of hamfests is manifest at Dayton.  Once upon a time, you could decide at the  last minute to attend, load up some "junk" you no longer needed that was taking up valuable space, arrive at the  hamfest and ask for a flea market space expecting to pay about $15 extra for a vendor's ticket.  As a buyer, you could always count on some great finds, often at near give-away prices, and on leaving the hamfest with the oddball transformer or capacitor you had been looking for to finish off some homebrew project. 

But gradually, it became more and more a money-oriented event.  What is the cost of a vendors' space nowadays?  $35? $50?  And you  have to apply for it weeks in advance.  No more last minute decision to pass some of your stuff on to someone else who needs it.  As a result you see fewer and fewer individuals who come to open up the trunks of their cars to sell a few goodies while they shop for more to replace what they sell.  What you mostly see now are the professional hamfesters who do it as a business,  making the circuit in travel trailers to display the same goods at hamfest after hamfest, year after year, often selling with a bad attitude at highly inflated prices.  The tubes, sockets, large bread-slicers, audio transformers, power transformers, oil caps, panel meters, bakelite dials, transmitting micas, rack panels, homebrew rigs, antique and vintage parts, etc. are seen  less and less, while second-hand "modern gear" shows up priced as new, along with computer junk and all kinds of trinkets that you would expect to see at a general flea market but not at a  hamfest.  You may find plenty of "vintage" gear, but it is likely to be way overpriced.  Tubes and  high quality audio transformers are conspicuous by their absence because US and Asian audiophools have already scooped them up.  A  large number of these vendors are retirees for whom hamfests have become a second career to supplement their SS and pension income, and they usually have little interest in dealing with small parts or anything else they think won't turn around a great deal of bucks.

I suspect, based on the previous several years vendor attendance, you could probably drive up to the gate at Dayton Friday morning and buy a space or two these days. Vendor space there is $60 for a non-corner space and $100 for a corner space. If you buy one corner space, any additional spaces (non-corner) are also $100 each.
Many hamfests are revenue driven, because clubs that sponsor them use it as a source of club revenue.

I'll have material from at least one estate at Dayton this year with lots of boxes of parts and stuff, many of which, I haven't even had the opportunity to go through yet. Maybe I'll just wait till opening day and open them at that time. I'm taking all the seats out of the mini-van except for the passenger and driver's seats.

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

Steve, I actually have some old programs from the Burlington Amateur Radio Club's hamfest in the mid/late 50s. 2-day events which included a number of things from guest speakers, banquets, dinner/dancing, cook outs, and a flea market. The flea market was merely a piece of the event, not the entire event.

I agree - when things focused on nothing beyond the buying and selling, it got stale. With fewer new people getting into Ham radio and even fewer still interested in old/used gear, combined with every little club having an event to 'raise money', well...it seems inevitable that some correction will take place. IMO, the good events going forward will be the ones offering something more than just buying/selling.

When the 'stuff' means more than the friends and on-air contacts, it's time to find a new hobby. That's why I like the AM community so much: they are very social and know how to have a good time.

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

Everyone has there reasons for attending fests and I'm not saying the flea market portions are bad. They serve a purpose. But when the fleamarket and making money become the sole or over-riding reason or motivation for the fest, that fest is doomed. Simple demographics indicate that as the ham radio population ages, there will be less of us that need to acquire stuff - we have enough or we're getting rid of stuff.

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

When the 'stuff' means more than the friends and on-air contacts, it's time to find a new hobby. That's why I like the AM community so much: they are very social and know how to have a good time.

It's not like it's very difficult - some beer and chips and most AMers are happy.

[k4kyv]

Part of the issue with selling at festers is that buyers want everything for nothing.

That's partly true.  Hams are notorious their niggardliness when it comes to buying equipment. 

From the late 40's until sometime in the 80's, we were spoilt by the near give-away prices of equipment and parts due to (1) the super-abundance of WW2 surplus items, and (2) the advent of SSB when hams were indoctrinated into thinking that old homebrew stuff was worthless, so they almost gave it away at flea markets in order to at least get a little something for it.

Recently, hamfests have become a place to look for scarce or unusual items, not "bargains".

I usually make a round or two at the flea market to grab any good buys before they are gone, then take a rest and socialise over a beer if any is served.  Then I  make another  round or two, then repeat the entire process several times over the whole day.  At Dayton I hear people say how they are not able to make it through the entire flea market in one day.  I usually make it through the whole thing 5 or 6 times, scanning into greater detail each time, but still miss stuff.  I also seem to get in plenty of visiting with people I know in the process.  One place where I don't spend much time at larger hamfests (unless it starts raining) is the indoor commercial display areas.

[W3RSW]

where you been man, you forgot the Rock!!

[N0WVA]

Part of the issue with selling at festers is that buyers want everything for nothing.

That's partly true.  Hams are notorious their niggardliness when it comes to buying equipment. 

From the late 40's until sometime in the 80's, we were spoilt by the near give-away prices of equipment and parts due to (1) the super-abundance of WW2 surplus items, and (2) the advent of SSB when hams were indoctrinated into thinking that old homebrew stuff was worthless, so they almost gave it away at flea markets in order to at least get a little something for it.

Recently, hamfests have become a place to look for scarce or unusual items, not "bargains".

I usually make a round or two at the flea market to grab any good buys before they are gone, then take a rest and socialise over a beer if any is served.  Then I  make another  round or two, then repeat the entire process several times over the whole day.  At Dayton I hear people say how they are not able to make it through the entire flea market in one day.  I usually make it through the whole thing 5 or 6 times, scanning into greater detail each time, but still miss stuff.  I also seem to get in plenty of visiting with people I know in the process.  One place where I don't spend much time at larger hamfests (unless it starts raining) is the indoor commercial display areas.

I hardly ever am looking for boat anchors anymore, unless one jumps up and slaps me in the face with a "take me home" price. Example:recently I found a Hmmarlund SP600 for $75. I had always wanted one because to me it had the appearance of what a boat anchor receiver should look like. I never realized how heavy those beasts were until I tried lifting it up off the table.

Sadly, its not that great of a performer. I found I can homebrew a rig that works better than anything out there, so now I mainly just go for parts and leave the heavyweights at the fest.

[k4kyv]

I hardly ever am looking for boat anchors anymore, unless one jumps up and slaps me in the face with a "take me home" price. Example:recently I found a Hmmarlund SP600 for $75. I had always wanted one because to me it had the appearance of what a boat anchor receiver should look like. I never realized how heavy those beasts were until I tried lifting it up off the table.

Sadly, its not that great of a performer. I found I can homebrew a rig that works better than anything out there, so now I mainly just go for parts and leave the heavyweights at the fest.

Precisely...  Those things are notorious for their drift, just like all the earlier Super-Pro's.  About the only "boat anchors" I ever carry home are basket cases sold as junk.  Sometimes I try to fix them up, but I usually take them as parts rigs.  The same goes for second-hand homebrew items.  Often there is a wealth of high quality parts crammed inside one of Hammy Hambone's JS homebrew projects that you can pick up at a flea market at scrap metal price.  Even well-built homebrew stuff rarely commands much of a price, because most of to-days new breed of hams consider someone else's building project to be little more than pure junk.

One of my favourite spots for treasure hunting at hamfests is the cardboard boxes often seen under the vendors' tables, filled with random junk.

[af6im]

When my boy was 5 he loved to come with me to electronics/ham swaps. He would lag, playing with stuff in sellers junkboxes which fascinated him. I gave him a walkie talkie and we went at our own paces. At the next swap he told me on the way there that this time he wanted to buy something and asked for a quarter. At the end of the day he had a bag FULL of cool stuff, from many different sellers, and he still had his quarter. The kindness of all those sellers was something wonderful. They saw a little kid fascinated with electronics and wouldn't let him spend his money. He not only got stuff, he was given knowledge. As he unloaded his bag,  he told me what the gear drive variable cap did, how the universal joint worked, how his relay worked, how a stepper motor differed from a regular motor, etc etc. He is 18 now and just got his ham license last week. I like to think that the kindness and thoughtfulness of those sellers had a lot to do with it.

[Rick K5IAR]

Congratulations to your son and bravo to you for taking him along and exposing him to our wonderful hobby.  There are still a lot of good guys out there at ham fests we just don't seem to hear these stories very often.  Thanks for sharing!

Rick/K5IAR

[W1AEX]

...I like to think that the kindness and thoughtfulness of those sellers had a lot to do with it.

Great story Mark and congratulations on your son's license achievement. I have no doubt that including him in your flea market travels had much to do with his interest in electronics. You are absolutely right, there are some great people behind many of the tables there.

Rob W1AEX

[Opcom]

One of my favourite spots for treasure hunting at hamfests is the cardboard boxes often seen under the vendors' tables, filled with random junk.

hahaha! I am the guy with a truck load of those boxes under my table! I make a boodle and everyone is happy with their prizes. That's because I know good junk when I see it. It's all in the presentation, right?