The death of the flea market

[WA1GFZ]

I drove up to Framingham Flea a total of about 150 miles. I walk in and see about 100 feet of #8 on an old buzzard spool so I ask what do you want. Guy acts at me like he is doing me a favor for $30. My  response I'll go to Home Depot for that price and he goes BS on me. I said $20 which was about fair he goes BS again. I walk.
Then I find a guy I know with tubes. He had some 807s so figured I'd buy a couple spares for the V2-CDC. $25 a pair again I offer $20 and no deal I walk.
Bought some antenna rope and head home.   
Social value ok but 1/4 tank of gas just to shoot the crap.

[W3SLK]

When I was in Greece and Moraco, I learned the fine art of haggling. I intentionally go lowball and see if the seller is going to counter offer. If he stands firm on his price then they (whatever it is he is selling), is probably going home with him. Also, I like a bargain sale, if 1 for 1$ and 4 for $3 then I will buy. Sellers need to loosen up. I won't kiss nobody's a$$!

[WA1GFZ]

This guy with the scrap wire went crazy. I figured I should walk away for fear of him having a medical issue. Maybe tonight he can strip off the insulation for a couple hours and sell it for gas money at the bone yard.

[Opcom]

Maybe stripping the wire at home would be good therapy for the guy.
100Ft is what, 2 lbs? That's $8 un-stripped for scrap.
COB alert!
(COB = crabby old b@st@rd - a term a few of my posse uses at FMs to designate certain sellers).
When I go to a FM to sell, I am going to get rid of stuff and my prices reflect it.

[k4kyv]

I make them an offer and they can take it or leave it.  If it makes them go ballistic, it's their blood pressure problem and stroke risk, not mine.  Sometimes, if I am feeling in a frisky mood, I'll lead them on just to get a kick out of watching them make a fool of themselves - kind of the way I sometimes deal with A-hole slopbucketeers on 75.

OTOH, if it's something I really want or need badly enough but the price is a little high, I have learnt to bite the bullet and pay the price if the vendor is unwilling to budge.

Numerous times in the past at hamfests I would pass up an item because I didn't want to go over maybe $35, and the seller wouldn't come down below let us say $40.  Afterwards, I had the reverse of buyer's remorse.  I passed up something I really wanted and probably will never have the opportunity to find again, over a lousy 5 bucks (the price of a couple of beers), and kicked myself ever onwards.

[KB1IAW]

When I go to a FM to sell, I am going to get rid of stuff and my prices reflect it.

Funny how the sellers with your attitude and their buyers all seem to be having the most the most fun.

I attended the Lewiston, ME hamfest last Saturday. Not too much stuff but the Maine/ New Hampshire 75 meter AM contingent was well represented. Most of the AM folks made their way over to Larry, NE1S and Elaine's QTH for the annual post fester gathering. It was a most excellent time! And contrary to popular rumor there is a Jackson Bob. There were confirmed sightings at both events.

[kb3nqd]

This is just my opinion but there are a couple of things driving the "death of the fleamarket". 

The first is of course FeeBay (Craigslist factors in there too...).  We no longer have to wait until the next hamfest to get that rare/unusual item.  If you've got the dough someone is willing to sell it to you.  There are many that see the prices on ePay and refuse to take a penny less even at a Fester, I usually don't even try to negotiate with these folks.  A recent example of this was when I was hunting for an FT101E and everyone at the Fests who had one wanted at least as much as eBay.  I usually remark to them that "if you want eBay prices you should go sell it on eBay".

Another issue seems to be the "me" factor.  It used to be that Hams truly believed in helping each other out (especially those starting out) but we (and I mean the whole amateur radio community) could do a lot better these days.  To be blunt many amateur radio operators seem to have forgotten that creed/sense of obligation.  The AM community is a very close knit group that still believes in doing things the old fashioned way but I see enough of it (profiteering/it's all about me) at fests, shows and clubs to believe that it is a problem.  I have been very fortunate in that everyone I have spent any time interacting with has been exactly the opposite.  I was "sold" about $4K worth of ham gear when I first started out for $650 by a gentlemen that simply said "make sure that you do the same for someone else who is starting out someday." 

One last factor could be that people are just simply too "busy" these days to attend.  We are so connected that we are disconnected.  We have cell phones, EVDO cards, WiMax, Virtualization (Citrix, M$, or some other telecommuting solution) and many other ways to stay in touch days but do we use this technology to stay in touch with family and friends?  Generally speaking no, we use it to try and squeeze another 10 or 15 minutes of work into our day that is already too busy to begin with.  I saw someone logging into their work server on a laptop with an EVDO card while driving (ok crawling) on the D.C. beltway yesterday so it seems we can't even relax in our cars.  I used to think that I overrated the effect of this type of technology in our society until I saw my brother in law taking teleconference calls from work at dinner time when I visited him out in Ohio.  My opinion is that a lot of folks just don't have the time for their hobbies that they used to.  I think if they made more time for their hobbies they might live longer...

Just my .02

[The Slab Bacon]

As far as swapmeets and flea markets go, I have beem going to hamfests, motorcycle and old car swapmeets for many years now. Half of the fun is definately in the bartering!!

I was at a motorcycle swap meet some years ago, and this fellow had a chromed rear swingarm on his table. (it is still on my bike) We haggled over the price for 5 or 10 minutes and I bought it. Afterwards he said to me: "You would have probably paid my asking price, wouldn't you." I replied honestly: "yes, but half of the fun is the haggle." Next thing I knew this huge grizzley looking S.O.B. that looked like he ate babies for breakfast came out from behind the table shook my hand, gave me a hug, and replied "you know, you're right, it is half of the fun."

Now, having just about every rig I have ever wanted, I go to festers to look for deals on parts and hang out with friends. It is becoming more of a social thing these days. EBAY SUCKS!! It is much more fun to look the seller in the eye when you're purchasing something. Somethings their facial expressions tell much more of the story!!

                                                       The Slab Bacon

[k4kyv]

My opinion is that a lot of folks just don't have the time for their hobbies that they used to.

What happened to all that leisure time we were promised back in the 50's, that we were going to enjoy as a result of computers, robotics and the development of other space-age technology?

[KF1Z]

"American" human nature.....

We always seem to want more.

[W1AEX]

Said by K4KYV:  "What happened to all that leisure time we were promised back in the 50's..."

Yah, somewhere things went astray Don. What really ticks me off is that we were all promised personal robots to take care of all our needs! What the heck happened to those? I still have to make my own friggin coffee and put up my own antennas! What the hell?

Regarding flea markets. Pay whatever they ask, and complain loudly! Then set up right across from them and sell the same item to some fool for more than you paid. That's the spirit!

Rob W1AEX

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

What happened to all that leisure time we were promised back in the 50's, that we were going to enjoy as a result of computers, robotics and the development of other space-age technology?

Looking at some of the off-the-wall links and other things you post here regularly Don, I figured you had discovered the answer and was going to ask you! 



Flea markets, hamfest, etc are like anything else - they'll be as good or as bad as the participants make them. Instead of expecting others to do it for us, we have every chance to do it for ourselves.

The only real threat is the lack of interest following on behind us, but that shouldn't keep us from enjoying our time and maybe trying to attract others to the hobby as well. Not as easy as carping, but hey...

[Pete, WA2CWA]

Many sellers (those who attend flea markets regularly) enjoy the art of selling. They're not there for haggling, group fun, or group hugs. Turning a profit, or at least break even buy and sell, is the norm. These sellers generally have to retain a high level of tolerance  since they are subject to the whims, antagonistic behavior, and sometimes, even the stupidity of all the potential buyers that pass by their tables. Most of these "consistent sellers can relate 101 different hilarious stories about potential buyers that stop to view their wares and the resultant discussions that transpire. We laugh and bitch about you just as you laugh and bitch about us.

[k4kyv]

My major complaint about flea markets these days is the increasing dearth of items for sale that interest me.

[Pete, WA2CWA]

My major complaint about flea markets these days is the increasing dearth of items for sale that interest me.

Time marches on and so does products that are money and interest generators at the selling table.

[k7yoo]

The most fun I have had (well almost, but thats none of ur bizness) is at flea markets. I usually bring a big pile of stuff, yank em out of the aisles and assault them with snappy patter. I price stuff to go home with someone else and have a great time. If it suits me I give it away. I usually cruise the fester early to figure out who the flippers are and double my price when they come to my table. The other dealers always marvel at the pile of stuff I move out--even when they are sitting there with the same tired crap they came in with.
Secret: Smile and act like you enjoy being there. Engage people in conversation. Don't waste everyone's time bringing a clapped out FT 101 CB  refugee to the fest and price it at $500. Like the man said, if you want E-bay prices stay at home.
Skip
           

[KC4HGH]

Someone mentioned the fun & fellowship...and that's exactly why I started sponsoring a tailgater twice a year for the last couple of years.  The local club doesn't seem to like it, since none of the officers nor other heavies show up...they must see it as competition...but the regular laid-back good ol' boy ops showup from all over & we have a good time...plus, it's FREE, and many of us agree that hamfest prices (entry fees and tables) have gone beyond what many individuals and vendors want to pay nowadays, especially with gas prices going up, up, UP!

But, we have a lot of fun, get to eyeball-QSO and buy, sell & trade...and NO FLIPPERS!  Unless, of course, someone offers the buyer MORE money & can pry it out of the original buyer's grasp!

[W1UJR]

Yes, hamfests are in decline, but that's really just the nature of the hobby.
The bigger ones hold their own, the smaller are just an excuse to meet other hams and share a beer.

I always get a kick out of looking at early hamfest photos from the 1920/30s. No one wears a suit and tie any longer to the hamfests, or takes along the good wife Mabel, but in some way the hamfests are returning to their roots as a social event. Take a look at the early events, looks like a formal wedding or black tie event, with speakers and a large banquet!

As for "extreme" sellers Frank, I know what you mean. The guy might have had a lousy day, one never knows, but you're sure not going to sell much without a smile. 
Seen and been on the receiving end many times myself, what's reasonable for me for use in a hobby project, is too cheap for someone making a living off selling at hamfests.

My favorite guys to deal with are the kindly old buzzards, with boxes of junk on the ground and under the table. Those nasty old cardboard boxes are a gold mine, you can find all sorts of goodies there, often for less than a dollar. The ones who I give the widest berth to are those who have taken the time to research and print out copies of what the last one went for on eBay. I'm convinced that, with some exceptions, the cleanest and best gear never gets publicly advertised and stays within the "family".

The older guys are often both pleasantly surprised and excited to see that someone still wants to build! Sometimes they are just happy to see the stuff go to good home, and if you take a few minutes to ask how long they have been in the hobby, or about their early station, you might just be given far more than you expect. Their reminisces are priceless, and what really makes the amateur service interesting.
A few years back at the Union, Maine hamfest , I had one elder ham giving away QSTs note my interest and ask if I'd be interested in a 75A1. Turned out to be one of the cleanest I've seen, and all for a few minutes of a listening to someone reminisce about the olden days. He was a grand old fellow, and was moving down to the warmer climate of Florida and just needed to part with the stuff.

Frank, I'll bet you'll see that roll of wire at next year's Framingham!
Thanks for the story.

[W1RC]

The great thing about the flea market is you never know what you will find.  It's the hunt for the elusive that really makes it fun.

Just about anyone can sell for the cost of the space.  I've met some of the nicest people at flea markets and some of the biggest ani on the face of this earth.

I was at Londonderry on Saturday just selling tickets and promoting NEAR-Fest.  There was just a lot of general schmeg on the other tables; nothing that interested me in the least.  Hell, it ain't what it used to be, but the pickings were really slim, like nothing.

Then a guy comes in and starts setting up on the table next to mine.  Out comes a nice computer-controlled DC-to-Daylight receiver that sells for $600.00 in the Candy Store.  Couldn't believe the asking price and the box never actually touched the table. 

So, you never know..............

See you at Deerfield!

73,

MisterMike

[WA1GFZ]

OTOH the guy could have been trolling for suckers. Heck I paid good money at Deerfield for a 300 foot hunk of bare wire to replace my phased dipoles. I check the weight and if it seems fair it is a go. I need some #8 wire so figured I'd buy this guy's stuff. I lift it and under 10 pounds insulated on a steel spool WTF. It isn't gold. I think he went off when I told him it was a Home Depot price. I didn't see him sell anything so I hope he enjoyed lugging all that junk back home. I have plenty of #6 so heck I'll go bigger.
   

[WB2CAU]

There are as many different personalities behind the tables as in front of them. Not every seller has the right mentality to tolerate a low ball offer.  I've seen the guys who go ballistic when you offer a low price.  I've been on the seller's side of the table hundreds of times and I never let a low ball offer set off a temper tantrum.  Doing so just slams the door to any further negotiation.  I usually politely say that the offer is a bit low and if no one else buys it before the end of the hamfest, come back and we can make a deal.  Usually, if the potential buyer wants it bad enough, he will buy at that point, or if he's looking for a bargain, might come back later... but usually it's gone by then.  Remember, it's not the seller's goal to make you happy. He is hoping to make himself happy.

I am irked by people who think that eBay sellers are "charging" higher prices for their goods.  The seller simply allows the marketplace to determine price.  It's the buyer that determines what it is worth to them.  If you think the price is too high on an eBay item, simply don't bid on it.  I think many of us "hamfesters" have been spoiled over the years of not having much competition with a large venue.  Hamfests and eBay run on the concept of "supply and demand".  When the demand is high and supply is low, prices rise.  When the supply is high and the demand low, prices drop.    Hamfests are not exempt from this.  It's the way the value of all commodities (including ham radio stuff) have been determined throughout recorded human history.   

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

You really summed it up pretty well, Eric. Sellers, buyers, dealers, flippers - it takes all kinds! In the end, no one is forcing either to buy or sell, so we get to decide what is 'reasonable'.

Dealers to me are more along the lines of HRO, AES, someone like Pete selling manuals, or providing repro parts, a service, so on. Some sellers of old gear probably fall into this as well, since they pick the stuff up and really have no use or interest in it. They just enjoy the 'fests and the people.

Flippers to me are more along the lines of those who troll the flea market for stuff to resell on their table or on ebay in hopes of a few dollars more. Hey, if you've got the time for it, go for it. It's your time, you get to decide just how much or little it's worth.

The majority of sellers seem more interested in just lightening the load, getting rid of stuff to make room, finance a new rig, whatever.

Buyers....heh. Having been a seller many times over the decades, they can be pretty amusing. From the know-it-all/know-nothing types, to the old timers reminiscing, to the dolts stuck in 1970 who admonish you for asking more than $50 for that R-390. Just the stories and experiences themselves are priceless. Most amusing to me are the newbs who come along to educate you about that certain piece or gear you have, reciting information they saw on the internet as if it was their own gospel. Except....it's not accurate information, more likely something they read on a board or email reflector.

Then there are the ones who insist you have to sell them XYZ for the price they state, because they know its true value and you do not. 

The best conversations have come from the old sages who were there - military vets, old guys who built the stuff in the 30s-40s, former big names in the world of amateur radio and so on. The things these guys can tell you... absolutely amazing.

Haggling is indeed fun, as it gets both parties talking towards the same goal. And as stupid and insulting as some buyers are, I've seen equal nonsense from sellers. Ya can't fix stupid, as the saying goes. Many of us are aware of one seller who digs up really good stuff, mainly parts and manuals, but can be a real wing nut to deal with. Sometimes he's quite lucid, other times you just walk away. His table is always one of my stops, and I scored a nice manual from him at Timonium. Over time, you learn who is who, which ones you can joke with, which ones require special handling, and which ones to avoid. Folks also know the ebay flippers who show up looking to pay little and resell online. I've witnessed large price increases from what I was told minutes before when one of them shows up. People catch on.

As far as the ebay vs hamfest/flea thing, they are simply pieces of a bigger puzzle that defines the marketplace. Ebay tends to be the high water mark, with more bidders available with more disposable income. But hamfests, private sales, other avenues still represent the bulk of the sales IMO. For every high ticket sale you hear about on ebay, dozens of stories exist of similar or better items for less money. Ebay is really about the convenience factor more than anything. When you include the shipping, listing, email and other hassles, well....more good stuff seems to be showing up at hamfests these days.

As NEAR-Fest and I'm sure other events prove, the hamfest/flea market is thriving - not to be confused with the atrophying of the hobby itself and loss of smaller, more local events. It really comes down to having the people and interest to sustain the event going forward, apathy being the biggest threat.

[W9GT]

A lot of good comments here!  The bottom line is....whatever the venue, you don't have to buy it if you don't like the price.  I think it is wrong to indulge in name calling and classifying people as "profiteers" and "flippers", etc.  just because they are trying to make a buck...buying and selling gear.  They are many times really doing a service by locating gear and parts and making them available.  On the other hand...if they are cheating  and/ or taking advantage of people like some of the infamous "MART/dealers" on eBay and elsewhere, that is another story.  I also think it is wrong to turn around and resell something for a big profit that was given to you by someone to help you out when you were in need.

Let's face it, hams are notoriously cheap and always looking for bargains and the best price possible...nothing wrong with that, but it seems to me that there are two sides to the transaction, and the name-calling isn't really justified, at least in a large percentage of the situations.  Many of us, as Todd points out, have been in the position of wanting to sell excess gear and parts to purchase new items.  Putting our "trading stock" to good use.  Many of us have perhaps benefited by the increase in market value of items that we purchased some time ago and now choose to part with to finance new acquisitions.  That doesn't make a person bad or somehow underhanded in their dealings!!
It is great to help out fellow amateurs by giving them parts from our stock piles and junk boxes to help each other out with projects.  If you can spare it...it is also commendable to donate excess gear to the cause and helping out a newbie.  I have done this many times and hopefully helped out new guys as well as old friends.  Not everyone has unlimited resources, however, and they can't always be expected to give stuff away or sell it for very low prices in the name of giving back to the hobby.

Just my two cents worth.  Heck, I always thought that half the fun of it was searching and haggling and making those great deals for goodies. 

73,  Jack, W9GT

[kb3nqd]

A lot of good comments here!  The bottom line is....whatever the venue, you don't have to buy it if you don't like the price.  I think it is wrong to indulge in name calling and classifying people as "profiteers" and "flippers", etc.  just because they are trying to make a buck...buying and selling gear. 

<snip>
Not everyone has unlimited resources, however, and they can't always be expected to give stuff away or sell it for very low prices in the name of giving back to the hobby.
<snip>


73,  Jack, W9GT

I have yet to meet an AMer that would fall in to those categories, but then again I am still new here.  I do expect sellers to make a fair profit but not an obscene one on a regular basis.  We all get lucky from time to time and score a sweet piece of gear or two that we can flip for a few hundred more and I wholeheartedly support that.  If you take a radio and fix it up or just clean it up and tote it to the next fester you should turn a profit (we have to get funding for our ham kitties somehow).  What I am less supportive of is taking advantage of people by misrepresentating what things are worth to prospective sellers who are grieving.  I also don't support the rise of the "Ebay" prices at fests and markets.  If you want those prices and refuse to come down than by all means sell it online and deal with the possible whining, refunds, negative feedback, shipping headaches, etc...  There are some items that will score you enough dough they are worth the risk to sell on Ebay. 

It's wonderful to hear that you have helped out some newcomers.  I haven't had the opportunity to do that yet but I am sure it will come.  Everyone has different financial situatons and buyers do understand that for some every penny counts.  You are correct in that everyone can not be expected to take a loss but perhaps every once in a while when someone who just passed their exam comes up to our tables we could sell them an item or two for what we paid for it.

[Pete, WA2CWA]

I do expect sellers to make a fair profit but not an obscene one on a regular basis.

"fair" and "obscene" terms are too nebulous here. Seller can choose any price he/she wishes; buyer has the option to ponder or walk.  This isn't rocket science. Making profits, even substantial profits, are not illegal or immoral in any free market.

What I am less supportive of is taking advantage of people by misrepresentating what things are worth to prospective sellers who are grieving.

The simple answer is that grieving people shouldn't sell anything. Estate planning, including your ham radio stuff, should be done before you kick the bucket, not after.

I also don't support the rise of the "Ebay" prices at fests and markets.  If you want those prices and refuse to come down than by all means sell it online and deal with the possible whining, refunds, negative feedback, shipping headaches, etc...  There are some items that will score you enough dough they are worth the risk to sell on Ebay. 

The seller has a vision of an asking price from whatever source. The immediate selling market that the seller is in will determine if the seller will get the asking price. Again, the buyer has the option to ponder or walk.