Ban Incandescent Bulbs - Dateline Maine

[WA3VJB]

Actually they've done well developing the low-flush toilet in the time since the first generation of them came to market.

We just got a new one during downstairs remodeling, and they've figured out that the use of a larger flapper increases water velocity and creates a better pushout.

Still not quite a royal flush by any means, but no longer need to hit the handle twice either, like the ones we have upstairs.

When the low-flush toilets first came out, there were black market sales of "commercial" toilets that were not limited to 1.6 gal. Also, Canadian Commodes started floating across the border, and there was a Collector Commode market created from discarded but still serviceable 6 gallon jobs.

We are on a well and a septic system here, so I've got no problems with cutting the effluent.  If worse comes to worse I can follow the dog out to the woods.

[WA1GFZ]

I have two new Koholer crappers that use the new flow limits and it has no problems flushing anything I've put into it. The old American Standard we have has trouble and uses 3 times the water.
They only cost me about $300 and no weird blatter just a 4 inch trap door to power hit the 10-1000 down the sewer

[Art]

Frank,
You don't have your email listed under your personality so: I understand you are very enthusiastic in your views and appreciate them to the extent that I can. However, the information you are posting in a political vein is inappropriate and unwelcome.
Just because Marty referred to himself as a Republican does not mean a political statement has been made and all rules are suspended. This is the same as someone referring to a specific action as a dumbshit move does not refer to the bodily process of waste elimination and merit an extended discourse thereon.
Thanks for your understanding.
Art

[Ed W1XAW]

Personally I hope that CFL's be encouraged but that incandescents be available for sale to people who just don't like them.

Sir
You are espousing freedom, please.

I wasn't sure where I stood on the proposal that Bruce posted about but my first reaction was to reject it and after considering it from all sorts of angles, this hasn't changed.  While I don't think that the eventual possibility of mandates on this matter or others involving demand should be categorically ruled out, I don't support Mr. Strimlings proposal (remember the initial post?).   What I'd like to see is a period where public figures, including elected ones, use their bully pulpit to try to persuade people to select more energy efficient means of lighting, driving, etc. where they are available and new ideas can be phased in.  My goal in my original post was to state that there are am ops who are not as convinced as others that global warming is hogwash. I thought that the "global warming as hoax" side was over represented on these pages so I wanted to counter it.  I appreciate that some people don't like the idea of anybody other than themselves deciding anything and look at such as an attack on personal freedoms, but I think that is not how our republic actually works, that a lot of good laws are established for the common good, and the folks who make those laws are not necessarily directly related to Che and Fidel.  Anyway, thank you.    Over and out.  Ed     

[WA1GFZ]

Sorry I forgot only 1 political view allowed here.

[W1RKW]

The old American Standard we have has trouble and uses 3 times the water.

Wizzing on the american standard. It has a nice ring to it. 

[W8EJO]

I've seen rate increases that were passed and justified on the basis of reduced volume of sales.

That rule only applies in government & quasi government controlled markets or monopolies such as public utilities where by force of law, the consumer has their choice limited. The US Postal Service & The City of Cleveland Division of Water are examples of such recent price increases that I am aware of.

In free markets, such as  commodities markets, for a given level of aggregate supply, a decrease in aggregate demand will bring downward pressure on price.   

A day or two of watching the action of the commodities markets will convince you of this where even a hint or threat of some potential demand or supply interruption has an immediate effect on the bid & ask prices.

[W1RKW]

We had the same thing happen here in CT.   The power company promoted savings by getting everyone to convert to CFL's and other energy saving devices.  When their bottom line tanked as a result of their promotion they asked for an increase in rates.  Naturally the governing bodies relinquished and gave it to them.  We've seen this at least 3 times in the last year and half. 

I had savings on the E bill long before when I switched to CFL's and put many devices on timers. All that changed with the rate increases.  I'm seeing bills that equal what I was paying before going to timers and CFL's. I had temporary savings but no more.  I can't reduce anymore otherwise I'd be in the dark and cold.

I can understand promoting this on the idea of saving their infrastructure but come on.  This to me seems like ruse in their favor not mine/ours.  I guess I'm an idiot for not seeing it in advance. And they haven't done a damn thing to improve their infrastructure, the power still fluctuates and goes out.

I wonder if I was able to go independent, if they'd still send me a bill....

[ka3zlr]

Well, one thing's for sure all Is Well in the Land of Light Bulbs...Business as usual...

I just don't like the things..I don't like the light they give off..and i don't like concern on removal...Like my Dad used to say Turn the lights off boy we don't live in the city...

If some kind of savings is realized...I don't know...if your the type that leave the lights on all the time i guess there is a savings...beats me..Myself I'm for going Solar and change all my lights to DC...heck with em..

[Art]

I have heard of utility increases and surcharges because of reductions in utilization (maybe on this board). Even if it costs the same, reducing consumption is good by me. If, and only if, I don't have to reduce my standard of living to accomplish the savings. There's far too many examples of people preaching about the benefits of conservation while not changing their habits a whit. Personally, I like CFLs. I like LED arrays more and use them where I can replace CFLs. Geez, I shouldn't have mentioned that. Next they will be banning CFLs.
Now, if you want the government to provide (guaranteed not direct) SBA loans to LED lamp research and small businesses getting ramped up to produce them. . . .I'm up for it. To try to legislate away individual choice in the name of the greater good implies knowledge beyond the scope of our politicians as far as I have observed. CFLs exist and they can be a better choice for energy conservation than incandescents. Hybrid cars exist and can be a better choice for conservation than conventional gas vehicles. Shall we ban conventional gas vehicles? Where does it stop once we go down this path?
Just because some laws are on the books, have been rationalized as being for the common good, and have done good things (the Hudson won't burn any more, or LA air is less visible from Riverside, for instance), does not mean we should have our individual choice diminished in any area the government wants. That applies to candles, oil lamps, gas lamps, incandescent, CFL, or LEDs. What next, special home 'taps' to determine if you are using the wrong lamp, have an old radio, or are running legal limit on 80? . . . wouldn't that be for the greater good. . . .  to those who would choose to eliminate your choices? Should real toob transmitters be banned because there are class E and D TX available?

-ap

[Opcom]

with my old electric provider, I got a price break for using over 5 megawatt hours per month. so i thought. I switched, and get the same price now no matter what.

I have put CFLs in all household sockets. In some cases, the 'pretty' fixture glass cannot be used with them. OK by me. (future fixtures should accommodate the new CFLs) If I don't have enough light, I use Y adapters to install as many as 4 CFLs, so OK I am using 150 watts, but I am getting 400 watts worth of light. Either way, I tend to like them in the house. In the lab (shack), regular inductive ballasts and filament-type lamps are used because CFLs will interfere with measurements by adding noise in some cases.

Many people argue that LEDs are more efficient than CFLs, but I think not, they seem to be more like halogen lamps for efficiency.

My AM gear? it uses alot of electricity, but that is not a material issue due to the low duty cycle.

as for fuel-burning, and I won't bring up my M35 military truck.. I need a pickup truck, and the company car allowance says a 'car' has to be a 4-door. So I have a big 15MPG guzzler, but it is only a 1/2 ton silverado. I sure have no idea how to build an affordable 30MPG 1/2 ton 4-door pickup truck, and I can afford only one car for commuting (the insurance companies, instead of insuring us as drivers, cheat us by separately insuring the vehicles -but I can only drive one at a time.). Recently, new small high-tech 2-seat cars are being invented that have a <20HP engine-generator and hybrid power. Ok, so I am in Texas, doing 70MPH, and I turn on the air conditioning in one of those, and if the a/c has any beans at all, there goes half the power.. and I get rearended and killed by a ford focus.

These things won't be solved overnight.

[W8EJO]

Supply & demand rule prices on the open bulk wholesale commodities market, true enough. But on the retail & distribution side of the game, all the costs, infrastructures, employees, etc. are still there when sales volume decline, either prices go up or there's no profit.

In a free & competitive market, raising your prices would be a suicidal strategy. It would just be another nail in your coffin. Your competitors would throw a party.

[Bill, KD0HG]

as for fuel-burning, and I won't bring up my M35 military truck.. I need a pickup truck, and the company car allowance says a 'car' has to be a 4-door. So I have a big 15MPG guzzler, but it is only a 1/2 ton silverado. I sure have no idea how to build an affordable 30MPG 1/2 ton 4-door pickup truck, and I can afford only one car for commuting

Ford is saying they will be introducing a diesel F-150 in the 2010 model year. Reports are it will use either a 3.6L or 4.4L engine. It ought to get upper 20s in the MPG department.

Do a web search for details, look for the Ford press release of a few weeks ago.

[W1UJR]

In a free & competitive market, raising your prices would be a suicidal strategy. It would just be another nail in your coffin. Your competitors would throw a party.

Depends on if you are selling on price or value.
There is an old Volvo commercial I recall, "There are those who know the price of everything, and the value of nothing."

Most Americas buy on price, hence the success of Wal-Mart.
But for margins, here Neiman-Marcus has the edge.

Dell sells more computers, but Apple holds much higher margins.
Have you compared the share price between the two?

A certain demographic of Americans can and will pay more for something if they realize value attached to it, hence the sale of diesel cars despite the premium attached to such. Other folks, because of previous life decisions, have to buy what they can afford.

Price is not always the deciding factor.

Which is the problem with many of these government mandates, they raise the cost for those who can afford it the least.
Then the bureaucrats engage in the redistribution of wealth to subsidize said policies.
Hence the TV box convertor "voucher" or so called "economic stimulus refund"; that's not free money folks, that came from you and me.

In business, one almost always runs a cost v. benefit analysis before engaging in a behavior or process.
Unfortunately government is not held to that standard, they only need to raise taxes, and damn with the results.
Given that goverment seems to be increasingly engaged in social engineering, I'd like to see a little accountability.
To that end, I'd be all for applying the SOx (Sarbanes-Oxley Act) to government at the local, state and federal levels.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarbanes-Oxley_Act
What's good for the goose.....

[W8EJO]

In a free & competitive market, raising your prices would be a suicidal strategy. It would just be another nail in your coffin. Your competitors would throw a party.

Depends on if you are selling on price or value.

Most Americas buy on price, hence the success of Wal-Mart.
But for margins, here Neiman-Marcus has the edge.

Dell sells more computers, but Apple holds much higher margins.
Have you compared the share price between the two?

Value is the ratio of price to perceived quality. Price by definition is a factor in the equation.
 
The wealthiest among us still love to get a deal.

[Bill, KD0HG]

The wealthiest among us still love to get a deal.

Or, as my grandma used to say, "The more (wealth) they have, the cheaper they are.."

LOL

[W1UJR]

Wal-Mart is not the point of my posting, though that would be a good thing to discuss...once we solve all the other ills of the world. 
Here is the point about the "do good" legislation referenced in the initial posting:

---
Which is the problem with many of these government mandates, they raise the cost for those who can afford it the least.
Then the bureaucrats engage in the redistribution of wealth to subsidize said policies.
Hence the TV box convertor "voucher" or so called "economic stimulus refund"; that's not free money folks, that came from you and me.

In business, one almost always runs a cost v. benefit analysis before engaging in a behavior or process.
Unfortunately government is not held to that standard, they only need to raise taxes, and damn with the results.

Given that government seems to be increasingly engaged in social engineering, I'd like to see a little accountability.
To that end, I'd be all for applying the SOx (Sarbanes-Oxley Act) to government at the local, state and federal levels.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarbanes-Oxley_Act
What's good for the goose.....

----
Basically my observation is that the National Public Radio set, the most vocal proponents of "do good, feel good" legislation, can easily afford the cost. What they fail to realize is that those on the bottom of the food-chain are often the ones who must bear the brunt of the costs...factories closing, jobs being sent overseas, increased taxes and prices, etc.

Sure it sounds good, but all too often that which sounds good, is not, in fact that which does good.
Government sees a problem, throws money at it, hopes it goes away, and never checks to see what the Return on Investment really is.
Accountability is a language that most governments don't speak.
Your rising tax bill tells the tale.

[Tom WA3KLR]

Flourescent lamps don't work in cold temperatures that incandescents do.  The flourescents start to have trouble in the low 60's.

Also in hallways and stairways where the light is only on for 10 seconds is impractical for florescents.

Only when LED array bulbs are available do I see the higher efficiency niche fulfilled for hallway, basement, garage, outdoor porches and the classic refrigerator light - 2 whammies; 37 F. AND only 5 seconds.

The oven bulb - not even LEDs would cut it, incandescent only. 

What are my congressmen thinking?

[KF1Z]

I guess people have had mixed results with CFLs and radio.

Every bulb in my house is a CFL.... except the refridge.

I have one on the desk here, not 3 feet from my open link-coupled tuner, and 2 more within 10 feet.

I have yet for them to be a source of hf noise.


In the fixture in the kitchen, ( a 3 holer ) a set of incandescents would last no more than 3 months....
The CFLs have now been in the same fixture for over a year and a half......


Go figure.........

[W8EJO]

I'm not automatically opposed to government regulation.

There has to be the right amount of regulation.


The sub-prime meltdown is a good example of what results from regulatory failure. The massive government bailout of individuals & their 'lending institution'(s) coming from the Feds & the states will rock your socks off when the cost is counted in tax increases.
Doug
KA3TGV

So true and the very same Gov't that is "bailing out" these borrowers & lenders helped create the problem with their insistence on loosening certain lending practices.

It reminds me of the health care mess that gov't created & now wants to "fix". Through the tax code, they created a special type of business deduction known as the  "qualified health & welfare plan". Under the tax rules the employer's cost for providing these plans (mainly health insurance plans) can be deducted as a business expense but the employee need not claim the value of the insurance as income on their own tax returns. Pretty slick eh'.   

This scheme encouraged employers to offer (and employees demand) health insurance as an employment benefit. This arrangement has increased demand for health care like a rocket as there is now no price barrier to treatment.   It also put a 3rd party (the insurance company) between the doctor & the patient. The doctor no longer had to give his neighbor the bill & expect him to pay it & the patient didn't have to worry about paying the doctor. Surprise, surprise prices went up & up & up, far outpacing inflation.

Instead of fixing the problem by simply doing away with the tax law that started it all, they want to "fix" it in other ways. Lord help us.

[K3ZS]

When I built my garage many years ago, I put  CFL lights in it.    On final building inspection, the inspector insisted that I remove them because they wouldn't work in the cold weather.    I have dimmers for all the main room lights in my house.    Do they make dimmable CFL's that work with present day dimmers?    I would expect line powered LED's would be dimmable. 
According to the spell checker here dimmable is not a word, but you know what I mean.

[Bill, KD0HG]

I guess people have had mixed results with CFLs and radio.

Every bulb in my house is a CFL.... except the refridge.

I have one on the desk here, not 3 feet from my open link-coupled tuner, and 2 more within 10 feet.

I have yet for them to be a source of hf noise.


In the fixture in the kitchen, ( a 3 holer ) a set of incandescents would last no more than 3 months....
The CFLs have now been in the same fixture for over a year and a half......


Go figure.........

I'll attest to the same thing...I replaced six 75-watt candelabra base bulbs in our overhead kitchen light fixtures with six 15-watt GE CFL bulbs (with base adapters).

I was constantly changing those bulbs, too.

450 watts for maybe 8 hours/day vs. 90 watts.
3.6 KWH/day to .72 KWH/day.

180 KWH/month @ .08/KWH= $14.40 a month just for the kitchen lights using incandescents, vs. 21.6 KWH/month @ .08 = $1.73 a month using the CFLs. I'll do the math, annual savings of $152. For ONE room's lighting.

That's a complete no-brainer, and I haven't had to replace one yet. No RFI at all from 160 through VHF. Using three warm whites and 3 cool white CFLs and the combined color quality is indistinguishable from incandescents.

[Bill, KD0HG]

  Do they make dimmable CFL's that work with present day dimmers?    I would expect line powered LED's would be dimmable. 
According to the spell checker here dimmable is not a word, but you know what I mean.

Yes, there are dimmable CFLs at Home Despot and Lowe's.

When they're outside and in the cold, it takes up to a minute for them to come up to full brightness. You need to decide if you need instant, full brightness, or if you leave your garage lights on a lot. Otherwise, stick with incandescents.

[k4kyv]

This scheme encouraged employers to offer (and employees demand) health insurance as an employment benefit. This arrangement has increased demand for health care like a rocket as there is now no price barrier to treatment.   It also put a 3rd party (the insurance company) between the doctor & the patient. The doctor no longer had to give his neighbor the bill & expect him to pay it & the patient didn't have to worry about paying the doctor. Surprise, surprise prices went up & up & up, far outpacing inflation.

Medical insurance through the employer originated in the US during WW2.  Price and wage controls had been imposed by the federal government due to the war emergency, so companies found a loophole by offering their employees medical insurance at no extra cost, or at a fraction of the real cost of premiums.  This "benefit" was not considered wages or taxable income and thus not subject to the wartime limits on wage increases.

Back in 1959, as a reaction to the panic over Sputnik, congress passed the National Defence Education Act to improve technical and scientific education in the US. One of the things I recall that our local high school got out of the deal was a brand new, state of the art foreign-language lab that really worked.

A new teacher started his job as a high school physics instructor, and noticed that the lab equipment was outdated and inadequate, so he asked his department head if there was any way they could get some better lab equipment.  The department head was thrilled to announce that yes, the new NDEA would fund just what he was asking for, and urged him to order anything he even thought he could use, and handed him a couple of recent catalogues for school  lab equipment.

After the teacher had looked through the catalogues and prepared his list, he stumbled across a couple of older catalogues for the previous year (before NDEA was passed).  The exact same lab equipment was listed in the catalogues from the same exact companies, down to identical catalogue numbers, at about a third the current price, now  that Uncle Sam was footing the bill.

[NE4AM]

We just got five more inches of white stuff last night here in Collins Country.  We are about 2' ahead of normal for snow accumulation for the year.  What Global Warming?