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N3DRB The Derb
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« on: January 17, 2008, 09:41:29 PM »

Damn. right off Digikey's site.

Quote
ELNA developed new raw material for the separate paper which uses a silk fiber. Therefore, this series can give high grade sound for any audio design. This series can be used to relieve the music’s vibration energy, to decrease the peak feeling sound at high compass, rough quality sound at middle compass and to increase massive
sound at low compass.

Is all electronics headed for this type of quackery? It seems that's where the money is.

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« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2008, 10:01:31 PM »

high compass? is that like high dudgeon?
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Radio Candelstein
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« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2008, 10:25:58 PM »

And put a fancy Blue wrapper on it and tell them they are solid copper leads, oh, and even though they are polypropylene or some other film cap(ie non polarized), mark a direction on them for signal flow with big arrows. 

Paul

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WA1GFZ
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« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2008, 08:35:41 AM »

wow, I need to change out the orange drops in my audio amps.
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k4kyv
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Don
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« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2008, 03:37:33 PM »

And put a fancy Blue wrapper on it and tell them they are solid copper leads, oh, and even though they are polypropylene or some other film cap(ie non polarized), mark a direction on them for signal flow with big arrows. 

I seem to recall some company making wires and cables for the "high end audio community" and putting arrows on the insulation to indicate the direction of signal flow.
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Rick & "Roosevelt"


« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2008, 04:50:06 PM »

Perhaps the arrow is really a signal to show which lead goes to ground from the outer foil.
Or perhaps it's the other way around.....   Which is groundier than the other?

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RICK  *W3RSW*
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« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2008, 06:44:08 PM »



http://www.thlaudio.com/elnaitme.htm

I must be relieved of my music's vibrational energy.

Rich
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N3DRB The Derb
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« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2008, 06:48:56 PM »

teh arrow is to point to where the dummy is that falls for this shit.  Roll Eyes
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WBear2GCR
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« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2008, 10:19:39 PM »

This is bound to win me friends and influence people here....

Dear kind ignoramus hams,

As it turns out, once you wring out a fair amount of the distortion from a given system, and you are using an amplifier that has precious little of the spectra of distortion that happens to not sound good (regardless of absolute level) and happens to also have ZERO loop feedback - which is what many afficionados of high quality audio reproduction do - it turns out that you can actually hear audible and clear differences in not just capacitors.

I know that this seems virtually impossible, and that it appears to be a delusion.
It is not.
I can assure you that it is not.

IF you still have decent hearing, and can hear up to about 14khz or better, and you are not inherently tone deaf, or unable to discern some things auditory (as if you have bad vision, are color blind, to use an analogy) it is trivial to demonstrate this. In fact, its so blatant that many folks who like yourselves were poo-poohing this sort of thing until they ran smack dab up against it had to completely revise their thinking on the subject.

You can likely do a simple experiment yourself on your mid-fi or better speaker system, and make up your own mind about it all. Here's how:
- most average "store bought" speakers use bipolar electrolytic caps (and ferrite or iron core inductors).
- change out the bipolar electrolytics in your speakers for mylar film caps (parallel whatever amount you need to reach the same value if you need to) or better still use polypropylene caps.
- for an even bigger effect, change out at least the tweeter's coil for one you wind yourself using say 14ga magnet wire (they're small, you can handle it) made to the same uH value. IF you want to be a stickler, measure the DCR of the original one, and put a series resistor (preferably a few in parallel, not a single one) that equals the same DCR when added to the much lower DCR of the new one.

IF you have your speakers set up for proper stereo - that's approximately an equal distance apart from the distance you are sitting from them, and they are away from the wall at least a foot or two, and preferably on the same wall, and preferably not obstructed in the direct line of sight, and not in a "live room" (hard floors, hard walls, hard ceiling), THEN you will hear a difference in the spatial presentation (where things seem to be coming from). IF you do not have your speakers set up thusly, the effect will be less clear, and you will only experience whatever tonal change may have taken place. That may still be sufficient, and is so in many cases.

TRY IT.

The difference in a speaker like the venerable Yamaha NS-10 is quite substantial, for example, when this is done.

I know it is hard to imagine that something as small and subtle as a different cap will make a difference, but it does in many situations.

And yes, there are many electrolytics in many mix boards, and albums still sound "good."

Oh, I guarantee that if you take two examples of any decent old tube amp, and swap out the resistors for modern film types, and the caps for modern film types, and improve the filtering on the supply, that the entire character and sound of the amp will also change noticeably. The more of it you do, the more noticeable it becomes. Like a Dyna, Acro, McIntosh, etc... lot's and lot's of people have gone through this very process of doubt and then hearing it for themselves... thousands, maybe tens of thousands now...

Look, they're not all crazy, they're not all wackos, they're not all ignoramuses. Many are highly trained professionals, and many are EE types...

              _-_-bear

PS. "compass" is likely a mistranslation from Japanese or Chinese - likely it really means "frequency". They are saying it provides "smooth sound." That's all.
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Steve - WB3HUZ
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« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2008, 10:33:43 PM »

Quote
Look, they're not all crazy, they're not all wackos, they're not all ignoramuses.

Yes, not all, which means some are.


Quote
Many are highly trained professionals, and many are EE types...


And many aren't.


The bug said that!
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WBear2GCR
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« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2008, 10:52:56 PM »

Quote
Look, they're not all crazy, they're not all wackos, they're not all ignoramuses.

Yes, not all, which means some are.


Quote
Many are highly trained professionals, and many are EE types...


And many aren't.


The bug said that!

Yeah!
Now I'm talkin to a bug!!

              _-_-
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Steve - WB3HUZ
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« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2008, 11:56:40 PM »

It's a software bug. How's that for geek humor?   Shocked
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N3DRB The Derb
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« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2008, 01:27:06 AM »

Quote
Oh, I guarantee that if you take two examples of any decent old tube amp, and swap out the resistors for modern film types, and the caps for modern film types, and improve the filtering on the supply, that the entire character and sound of the amp will also change noticeably. The more of it you do, the more noticeable it becomes. Like a Dyna, Acro, McIntosh, etc... lot's and lot's of people have gone through this very process of doubt and then hearing it for themselves... thousands, maybe tens of thousands now...

no doubt. but thats because you are changing the bloated wax dripping cat turd looking caps and +300% out of spec resistors that screw up everything in the first place!!!!!!!!  Shocked Shocked


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WBear2GCR
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« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2008, 09:38:56 AM »

Sorry, nice theory Derb.

While there may be some out of spec parts in old gear, this has been done over and over again on gear that is not only not out of spec, it is new.

Assuming you really care at all, try the speaker mod I suggested and report back. I won't be insulted or concerned if you don't hear anything. Chances are you will.

To neatly characterize these continuing criticisms of things "audiophool" here - while some things out there in the audio world are indeed questionable or bogus, most is not - most of the criticism here is roughly equivalent to some "new no-code general running a ricebox" commenting on what's right or wrong with AM.  Shocked Shocked

            _-_-WBear2GCR
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WA1GFZ
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« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2008, 09:51:14 AM »

Motion inside a cap dielectric can give some interesting effects. That is why you don't use XR7 in a class e shunt cap. Some dielectrics are actually piezoelectric.
I found this nailing caps with lightning pulses and called a smart guy to confirm I wasn't crazy.( yea right)
I have to laugh at some of the terms..kind a like the disease a week pill comericals.
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VE7 Kilohertz
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« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2008, 10:46:50 AM »

As Bear correctly states above, once you have removed the bulk of the grunge and distortion from your system, you will be able to hear more subtle changes that you make to wire, caps etc.  Just like a clicky, chirpy CW TX sounds like crap, you can still tell it's CW, but when you take the distortion out of the signal, and get clean start and stop to the RF wave, you can discern the subtle differences in key performance.  Like an outsider to ham might say, what does it matter which key or paddle you use, it still produces a break/make in current to turn on the TX. They should all sound the same.  Mmmmm.

Anyway, I spent years playing with high end hifi and like many here, started out skeptical, but as the equipment, amps speakers etc improved in my system, so became the ease of which small subtle changes could be heard.

I do love poking fun at certain topics in this forum, but once I a while, I will step up to the truth plate.

Now, where are those gold plated fuses?

Cheers

Paul
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Tom WA3KLR
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« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2008, 11:45:00 AM »

I like the silky sound of the ELNA capacitors.
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73 de Tom WA3KLR  AMI # 77   Amplitude Modulation - a force Now and for the Future!
N3DRB The Derb
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« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2008, 12:22:51 PM »

Bear,

sorry, but the vast majority of this "audio compass" & "tessitura"stuff is 100% grade homogenized bullshit. The reason the "old amp" sounds better is because after you put in the new stuff,
the circuit is working correctly for the first time in many years. It has nothing to do with the [insert ass kicking new special revolutionary whatever] they claim. It has to do with the fact that coupling cap you just changed is no longer acting like a resistor
and passing obscene amounts of garbage onto the grid of the next tube in the chain. Or that cathode bias resistor/cap pair you just changed restored a given tubes proper bias for the first time in 40 years.

There's no magic in it. Modern manufacturing methods are very exact and a given component is close enough to another make's in a tube circuit, most of which are highly uncritical of actual component values to not make a whit of difference because of some claim written by a guy in the sales dept. Have you ever worked in the electronics industry for a living? All that shit is written by sales guys, not anyone in the engineering dept. I know that because I made my living making stuff, inspecting stuff, helping engineering teams (never got the degree required to be one myself, but I was the top level aide of 3 guys and chief lab rat for 5 years for a very good team at a heart pacemaker company in Columbia, MD for 5 years) and I know how the game is played. I did time in production, QC, purchasing, customer service, and technical support over 3 different electronic related companies in hmm....21 years. All with only a 2 year degree and a mil spec board soldering/desoldering certificate. Never could handle the math skillz required to actually get a degree. But I did ok for a dumbass.  Tongue

For almost 2 years, I got paid (not much, but paid nevertheless) to repair antique radios at a little bitty shop in Baltimore that restored Zeniths, Philcos, and all manner of audio tube amps. So I not only have been employed in the modern electronics area, I got to get paid working in what amounted to a radio repair shop straight out of the 1940's.

I'm recounting all this because after all this time, it's occurred to me that I might have had a pretty good working life after all and I'm just trying to find a excuse for some boorish behavior on my part in the past. When I actually recount it all, it's been pretty good and might have a bearing on if something I claim to be true might in fact be true.

One other thing: there are MANY on here that run rings around me as a tech and a troubleshooter - KB3AHE is a good example - he just kicks my ass as a troubleshooter. He's quick and accurate. I wish I had his skillz . But I got one claim to fame I'll claim in my name: my electronic workmanship from soldering SMD's and multi level board repair to tube junk is the best. Thats why I dont fix stuff fast. Good work takes time and planning. the stuff I build or repair to work stays that way 99% of the time.

I dont know why I wrote all this - guess I'm just signifying that I have a reason to believe the way I do on so called 'audiophools', and it's based on employed experience. I don believe they have the techicanal knowledge required to know the differences about anything that goes on inside their gear. They mostly buy pre made stuffed boards with detailed instructions heathkit style if they actually build anything themselves at all. But they dont know the underlying reasons why these sales pitches are baloney.

I am not lumping you in that category. You obviously know something of what you speak. What I cant figure out is why you feel compelled to defend that which is 100% grade A sales dept BS as  "
Quote
ELNA developed new raw material for the separate paper which uses a silk fiber. Therefore, this series can give high grade sound for any audio design. This series can be used to relieve the music’s vibration energy, to decrease the peak feeling sound at high compass, rough quality sound at middle compass and to increase massive sound at low compass.

Why do you? You know better, and I know you do becuase of your posts. Is it just a knee jerk reaction or what?  Huh Huh

 
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Tom WA3KLR
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« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2008, 12:44:06 PM »

I have an article from March 1996 Speaker Builder magazine, page 42, in which the author tested a large number of 2.2 microfarad capacitors for ESR and D at 3 audio frequencies, and % THD.  The article was translated by John D. Fourdraine from a Netherlands article titled “Kondensatoren” in HiFi Luidsprekers, 1994.

All of the film capacitors tested (with 3V bias ) – polypropylene, polycarbonate, Wondercap, polyethylene, and polyester were all less than 0.001 % THD. 

Many electrolytics were tested, but most do not have a % THD test result listed however.
Philips ordinary electrolytic 63 Volts -  0.025 % THD
Roe ordinary electrolytic 63 Volts -  0.015 % THD
Visaton bipolar smooth foil 35 VAC – 0.012 % THD
Visaton bipolar rough foil 100 V – 0.003 % THD
Wego bipolar, smooth foil, 35 VAC – 0.011 % THD
- - - -

Tantalum electrolytics are supposedly much worse for % THD and were not even considered for the testing. 

I thought that I had some other % THD results for capacitor families here but so far have found nothing else yet.  I will continue looking for real data.
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k4kyv
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Don
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« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2008, 02:08:48 PM »

Quote
ELNA developed new raw material for the separate paper which uses a silk fiber. Therefore, this series can give high grade sound for any audio design. This series can be used to relieve the music’s vibration energy, to decrease the peak feeling sound at high compass, rough quality sound at middle compass and to increase massive sound at low compass.

I will defer comment until someone translates that to comprehensible English or French.
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N3DRB The Derb
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« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2008, 02:47:44 PM »

Don,

What is "shit" in French?
 
Cool

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Tom WA3KLR
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« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2008, 03:28:16 PM »

From an article found onthe web:

"Here're some actual R-C filter measurements, taken at 1kHz with
a Krohn-Hite 6200B distortion analyzer, on some random parts.

 R      C    dielectric   dist     comments
 --- ----- ---------- ----- ---------------
 22k 8.2nF polypro  0.002% Panasonic 2% ECQ-P1H822GZ
 22k 8.2nF film        0.003% Phipps & Bird subst. box
 22k 8.2nF ceramic  0.071% CK05 100V MIL jellybean
 160 1uF tantalum   0.046% 50V gum-drop ECS-F1HE105K
 160 0.1uF tantalum 0.040% 50V radial molded Kemet
 160 1uF electrolytic 0.017% 1uF 25V radial
 160 1uF electrolytic 0.053% at 3 kHz, -15dB"
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Ed/KB1HYS
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« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2008, 05:54:44 PM »

Don,

What is "shit" in French?
 
Cool



mierde (spelling?)   Grin
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73 de Ed/KB1HYS
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Just another member member.


« Reply #23 on: January 19, 2008, 07:05:58 PM »

Tim said:
Quote
What is "shit" in French?

I always thought it was "Zug, Zug!"

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« Reply #24 on: January 19, 2008, 07:44:01 PM »

Bear,

sorry, but the vast majority of this "audio compass" & "tessitura"stuff is 100% grade homogenized bullshit. The reason the "old amp" sounds better is because after you put in the new stuff,
the circuit is working correctly for the first time in many years. It has nothing to do with the [insert ass kicking new special revolutionary whatever] they claim. It has to do with the fact that coupling cap you just changed is no longer acting like a resistor
and passing obscene amounts of garbage onto the grid of the next tube in the chain. Or that cathode bias resistor/cap pair you just changed restored a given tubes proper bias for the first time in 40 years.

Derb, you've got an idea, and you've got hold of it like a Pit Bull on a kid's arm.  Shocked
Oops, bad analogy.
I addressed your presumption before. While this might happen, and if it did that would make a correct conclusion, the fact is that you can make these changes to a perfectly good, correctly working and biased amp and hear them. Period.


Quote
There's no magic in it. Modern manufacturing methods are very exact and a given component is close enough to another make's in a tube circuit, most of which are highly uncritical of actual component values to not make a whit of difference because of some claim written by a guy in the sales dept. Have you ever worked in the electronics industry for a living?

Yes.

Quote
All that shit is written by sales guys, not anyone in the engineering dept. I know that because I made my living making stuff, inspecting stuff, helping engineering teams (never got the degree required to be one myself, but I was the top level aide of 3 guys and chief lab rat for 5 years for a very good team at a heart pacemaker company in Columbia, MD for 5 years) and I know how the game is played. I did time in production, QC, purchasing, customer service, and technical support over 3 different electronic related companies in hmm....21 years. All with only a 2 year degree and a mil spec board soldering/desoldering certificate. Never could handle the math skillz required to actually get a degree. But I did ok for a dumbass.  Tongue

You're misunderstanding what's going on here.

<snip>
Quote
I dont know why I wrote all this - guess I'm just signifying that I have a reason to believe the way I do on so called 'audiophools', and it's based on employed experience. I don believe they have the techicanal knowledge required to know the differences about anything that goes on inside their gear. They mostly buy pre made stuffed boards with detailed instructions heathkit style if they actually build anything themselves at all. But they dont know the underlying reasons why these sales pitches are baloney.

Derb, you're misinformed.
Go to http://www.diyaudio.com and read through some of the longer threads in there.
Especially in the solid state section - some of the design chops possessed by these fellows is astounding, same thing in the other sections.

The fellows who buy kits and semi-kits are following in the footsteps of those who have explored the matter rather fully, in most cases. Yes there is the occasional rip-off artist and there are some downright stupid "high-end" products - those are funny, and the exception.

Quote
I am not lumping you in that category. You obviously know something of what you speak. What I cant figure out is why you feel compelled to defend that which is 100% grade A sales dept BS as  "
Quote
ELNA developed new raw material for the separate paper which uses a silk fiber. Therefore, this series can give high grade sound for any audio design. This series can be used to relieve the music’s vibration energy, to decrease the peak feeling sound at high compass, rough quality sound at middle compass and to increase massive sound at low compass.


Why do you? You know better, and I know you do becuase of your posts. Is it just a knee jerk reaction or what?  Huh Huh

Derb, ELNA is a serious cap company. They know what they are doing.
You can hear caps.
If you do, then you'll know why there is a market for different sounding caps.
Like tires on a car, eh? All the same, or not??

           _-_-bear
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