Oil Burner, gas burner, hp questions..

[WR2E]

Lest anyone thinks that's a fresh air intake... think again!

That's the FLUE PIPE !

Hello? 911 ?  I'd like to report a fire !

[W1RKW]

Unfortunately, there's more of this running around out there than you might think. With the onslaught of misguiding DIY programs on TV and the internet, all of a sudden every Joe Hack weekend warrior thinks they can handle a trade that takes a few years to learn and many years to perfect. Even at that point, a person needs a generous amount of mechanical aptitude to perform the work correctly in the first place.

It's the lack of training and experience, coupled with the inability to judge when something is over your head, that leads to installs like that Buderus job.
 

And calibrated instrumentation which the average schlub does not have.

[WR2E]

Ya know, I watched one of those stupid DIY shows the other day.  Why did I waste my time ?  I dunno... anyway, they were re-doing this kitchen.  Off to the side of the kitchen was what appeared to be an 'add-on' mudroom off the back of the house, maybe 12 x 12, three walls to the outside, two big old leaky windows, and a back door.

There was a convector below the windows, looked to be a 6" x 24" x 48" ... maybe 5K - 6K BTU ...

Guess what they did ?  They ripped it out and capped the pipes.

Did they replace it with anything at all ?    NOPE ...

So what they have now is a nice cozy little 'breakfast room' that's gonna turn out to be a walk-in freezer.  morons...

[W1ATR]

snip fr Pete> You'll love this one!  At least the firetrol is in a good spot!

Nice. I don't think the Buds' stack T is quite cool enough for that sweet zero clearance vent job. Forget the firetrol, this install needs an Ansul suppressant system. Maybe he thought it could be piped just like a dryer.

Fr Bob> And calibrated instrumentation which the average schlub does not have.

This is the truth these days. Personally, I've set a million burners in the older single pass oil suckers and they've always run great throughout the year. I have a great deal of confidence in my ability to setup a burner as long as I can see the flame. I do the cleanings on all my own accounts year after year, so if I screw things up, it just makes my job harder. But, when I work on any of the newer high efficiency jobs out there, triple passes, downshots, whatever, then the Testo comes out to double check everything. Do a little printout and hang it near the boiler for reference next year.

Fr Jeff>>So what they have now is a nice cozy little 'breakfast room' that's gonna turn out to be a walk-in freezer.  morons...

Maybe the homeowner is a refrigeration guy and likes it bit nippy.

Those shows are flat out dangerous is what they are. They do things on those shows with electricity that wouldn't be legal in even the worst 3rd world hellhole. You'll get average Joe McHack recording these onto his tivo in hopes creating his dream home, when in reality, he'll be doing nothing more than creating another horror story to be repeated for years around the dinner table at the firehouse.

There was one where they were vaulting the living room ceiling and there was an AC trunk running in the attic above. So they cut what looked like a 24x12, maybe larger, trunk and got some transitions down to 7 or 8" round and ran flex up and over the new ceiling along the roofline, and connected it to the other side. Then, ( Just to make sure the was no possibility for even the slightest airflow) they proceeded to squash it into the bay behind the sheetrock. I feel sorry for the guy that shows up on that call.

 

[Bill, KD0HG]

(not so) Simple question, Jared:

Would you or not recommend any sort of additive in a typical hot water system, or does plain water do it?

I'm wondering about the most efficient heat transfer and corrosion protection.

There are additives you can add to diesel cooling systems that greatly improve heat transfer in the radiator and engine block..

[W1ATR]

Hi Bill. I never really suggest adding anything to the water that wasn't truly necessary, like antifreeze or the like. There are de-scalers out there that will improve transfer from flame to water, but they can come with nasty little side affects like eating the seals between castings, and and corroding valves, circulater impellers, vents, flo-checks, the list goes on and on.

A less invasive way to de-scale a boiler is to remove a few gallons of water and pump in a few gallons of white vinegar. This can be done the easy way by dumping a few gallons of vin into a 5 gal bucket. Use a small pump, like a pony pump, and connect the outlet to the boiler drain and another hose to the inlet and drop it in the bucket. With a third washing machine hose connected to a bleeder on the return side, blow off the initial pressure into another bucket, then put that hose into the bucket with the vinegar. open the boiler drain, start the pump, and as soon as it starts pumping open the third hose and throttle it to keep the water/vin in the bucket at a constant level. Do this for a few minutes till everything is mixed well, then shut it all down, open the water feeder to raise the boiler pressure back to normal, (12-15psi), and restart the boiler.

Let it run like this for a day, then drain out all the water/mud, refill, drain it again, then refill and purge out the air.

If the boiler is less than 10 years old, you don't need to do this.

Just because of the nature of acid flushing boilers, even tho this is a very gentle way to do it, here's the disclaimer:

The fine print: The advice given in this internet post is to be taken for educational use ONLY. The author assumes no liability in the event of personal property loss, injury, or death. This includes, but is not limited to destruction of your property, or your neighbors properties, loss of limbs, decapitation, maiming, burning, termination of the family pet/s, or loss of services to the XYL. Use of the information provided is entirely AT YOUR OWN RISK.  

[WA1GFZ]

My opec monster is the 1960 model I just feed it keep it clean and pray. When it dies I'll deal with it. (knock on wood)

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

I had a nasty problem with my oil-fired hot water system (Burnham boiler, Beckett burner, cast iron radiators) when the house was first purchased. It circulated the hot water for the sink through a coil in the boiler, which plugged up regularly due to hard water. Temporary fix was to boil out the coil with nasty acid which lasted a year or so, at best.

Solution was an outboard hot water-maker unit with a closed loop between it and the boiler. That way the water inside the circuit didn't change, no more crud was introduced, and so on. Still have the original coil if anyone needs one, pretty decent shape too.

One thing that was mentioned to me early on though, was adding something to the boiler to neutralize the crud inside from the start. Theory was that even though it wouldn't increase so long as the boiler wasn't drained, the nasties in the water would eventually degrade the iron boiler and cause a failure. Eh? Never did it, and so far so good.

BTW Jared, I got all the numbers off that Amana A/C unit during my last trip to Florida. Right down to the HP of the motors. Of course, the paper is still sitting in the wife's car down there, but at least we're making progress!

[AB3L]

On the issue of Descaling..........I just had an instantanious heater installed to heat water for a 16 x 20 room. Viega pex and radiant plates under the floor. I posed a question to the contractor during my "class" on the operation.
After we went over the vinegar douche details I asked a question about feeding the system with the hot water side of the plumbing instead of the cold suply.
My thought came from what I had seen during remodeling of the last house(circa 1926). I removed a wall between two room to expose the feeds to the second floor bathroom. The brass pipe on the hot side looked as nice as the day it was installed. The cold side had green fuzz on it from inside to outside corrosion.

 
Doesn't the water tank "cook" out a lot of the impurities from the water? Wouldn't this cut down on the scaling within the heating chamber? I thought about this with humidifiers as well. They all get fed from the cold side and the foam wheel loads up with scale.

I gotta cut it off now since the building generator test is almost over and the transfer switch is gonna go........................

[Bill, KD0HG]

Excellent question.

I know that hot water heaters have a replaceable magnesium rod inside to act as a sacrificial anode to prevent corrosion. So what you'd be feeding the heating system boiler is corrosion-protected hot water instead of plain water.

I like that idea!

[Ed/KB1HYS]

I saw an interesting hot water\heating install over the holidays.  A new addition that has the hot water heating coils under the floor (very nice BTW). The heating water comes from a propane fired HWHeater, with a space heating coil. The tank was supplying all the hot water and the coil wasn't being used(?).  They added a bathroom to the addition, and the plumber just T'd the hot water supply for the bathroom off of the heating system...
They complained of the Rotten Egg Smell coming from the hot water, and that they get no hot water first thing in the morning (when the heating system is pulling it down).  I looked in the closet and noticed the odd arraignment of pipes.  Suggested they have the plumber come back and take the heating system off of the hot water tank and run it to the two unused nipples clearly labeled "FOR SPACE HEATING USE ONLY". Then flush the HWHeater to get rid of the bacteria causing the smell.

The guy who did the work was a "friend" who no longer returns their phone calls...   

[n2bc]

Regarding the domestic hot water "rotten egg" smell.....    I've got it - actually, had it - bad.  I'm on a well and use a water softener, both make the problem worse.  Tried a zinc based anode - no help at all.  Monthly shocks of chlorene or hydrogen peroxide only helped a few days.  To get rid of it I finally yanked the anode completely.

Two questions...

I've read that a plastic lined tank will not generate hydrogen sulfide. True?

I've also seen powered anodes that apply a DC voltage to the anode in the tank & they are supposed to cure the problem, but seem to be quite expensive. Do they work?

I've got an 8877 I could stuff in there and hook up some B+. Hmmm... a legal limit hot water heater!

THX!   Bill N2BC

[AB3L]

I saw an interesting hot water\heating install over the holidays.  A new addition that has the hot water heating coils under the floor (very nice BTW). The heating water comes from a propane fired HWHeater, with a space heating coil. The tank was supplying all the hot water and the coil wasn't being used(?).  They added a bathroom to the addition, and the plumber just T'd the hot water supply for the bathroom off of the heating system...
The guy who did the work was a "friend" who no longer returns their phone calls...   

As far as I know you are not allowed to mix the domestic water with the space heating water. So if I read you right, the tank was also used for the hot water to the bathroom so instead of using the coil as an isolated heat exchanger he just tapped into the domestic water. I believe this was the cause of Legionares(spelling) disease a few years ago and why backflow preventors became a big issue. The contractor should be turned into the local health inspector.

Here at the University, all of the buildings had to have them installed. Keeps the fire prevention water out of the drinking water and are checked regularly with reports filed.

My system as a back flow on it.

[KB2WIG]

Here is a link with a little more information.


http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/naturalresources/DD5941.html

On a more personal level, this link helped me come to terms....  ..

 http://www.beanogas.com/

klc

[Bill, KD0HG]

Heed AB3L. Building codes and state statutes here also require that a backflow prevention valve be installed on the boiler and outside water spigots of a residence. Boiler or outside irrigation water in the faucets is considered a serious no-no. Makes perfect sense to me, who'd want to drink that stuff, anyway???
Mmmmm! Nice calcium and glycol dietary supplement!

[Tom WA3KLR]

I have well water here and notice the sulfur smell occasionally when the water usage has been down.  When the water usage is normal, I don’t smell anything.  Years ago when I first bought the house, and got put on a new home owner list some of the water treatment gypsies would call me on the phone to get me to buy the filtering add-ons.  No one could tell me why my water smelled sulfurous at times.

When I installed a new water heater a few years ago, the smell became much more pronounced.  That's when I realized the smell is created in the hot water tank due to the protection anode.

Don't be a wuss. The gas won't hurt you.  It actually kills germs; used in cleaning wine-making apparatus.  Put up with the smell and let the sacrificial anode do it's job.

[AB3L]

Heed AB3L. Building codes and state statutes here also require that a backflow prevention valve be installed on the boiler and outside water spigots of a residence. Boiler or outside irrigation water in the faucets is considered a serious no-no. Makes perfect sense to me, who'd want to drink that stuff, anyway???
Mmmmm! Nice calcium and glycol dietary supplement!

If this catches elsewhere the backflow preventer manufacturers stand to make a bundle. I don't know of any regulation around here to demand the installation on the outside hose bibs.........yet.

[W1ATR]

Hi Bob/3L. I must have snoozed that one somehow, thanks for the pm.

Regarding the radiant floor job: The system is a closed loop and is only charged with water once. As long as there are no leaks, and no water is needed by the system on a daily basis, then it’s OK to charge with the cold water side. The only time heavy scaling becomes an issue is in a situation where there is daily makeup water, like a steam system that takes a little water on every cycle. After the first time the water is heated, the suspended calcium and magnesium in the water will drop out and the oxygen will be depleted and dumped thru the system vents leaving the water with a fishy smell and almost black in color. This is considered a normal water condition for a closed circuit heating system and nothing to worry about.

As far as the humidifiers go, I used to hook to the hot side all the time and it would lead to some heated debates over which is right and which is wrong. Manufacturers say to hook to the cold side as the hot side will deteriorate the piercing valve and solenoid valve shortening they’re life spans and leading to water leaks. Hooking to the hot side will extend the life of the humidifier pad, but in reality, for the 3 bucks, it should be changed once a year during the annual servicing of the system, which is something I do as part of the tuneup anyway.

The reason the hot side piping is always cleaner is because the calcium and magnesium are being left in the water tank. These nasties always separate at the hottest point in the system, whether it’s a water heating tank, a domestic coil inside a boiler, or an instant on water heater. Because copper is porous, they leach out to the surface on the cold side and discolor and deteriorate the tubing, but are removed and left at the tank on the hot side. Those are the areas in the domestic water system that should get some periodic maintenance with the vinegar solution, but it’s not needed in a closed heating loop application.

SK

[W1ATR]

Snip from Tom/KLR:

Don't be a wuss. The gas won't hurt you.  It actually kills germs; used in cleaning wine-making apparatus.  Put up with the smell and let the sacrificial anode do it's job.

In some cases, the stinking water is caused by germs. There could possibly be a bacterial infestation down at the water table that builds up when your not using much water, hence the stronger odor during these times. They moved into the water heater, and found out it's a new one with a fresh, tasty, magnesium anode rod. They set up section 8 housing, and started making babies in the nice warm water. Make sure the tank temp goes no lower than 120 degrees for starters. Sometimes there will be slime inside the toilet tanks if the concentration is strong enough. And yes, they are indeed harmless, and so is the H2S gas, just disgusting little buggers 

[AB3L]

Thanks for the reply Jared.

I don't know what chamber is made of in the instantaneous heater. Being that the system is Pex plastic tubing, the only place for buildup is in the two headers or in the chamber. If you really wanted to take precaution I guess the hot water fill would be the ticket but as you said there should be really no reason for much new water to be introduced.

I am having trouble keeping the temp up the last few days as it has been in the single digits overnight. This is an underfloor install and I am getting the idea that the sub-floor is not passing the heat like an above floor system would. Due to the original house contractor (1964) not installing (skimping) a course of block in the house foundation, I was unable to gain the space I needed between the basement door and the addition door right above it. I would have liked to maybe put a concrete slab down with the Pex in it. Then the ceramic on that.
The permit lists the room as a Three Season Room. Unless I tweek this a bit it will be just that.

Bob

[Bill, KD0HG]

Thanks for the reply Jared.

I don't know what chamber is made of in the instantaneous heater. Being that the system is Pex plastic tubing, the only place for buildup is in the two headers or in the chamber. If you really wanted to take precaution I guess the hot water fill would be the ticket but as you said there should be really no reason for much new water to be introduced.

I am having trouble keeping the temp up the last few days as it has been in the single digits overnight. This is an underfloor install and I am getting the idea that the sub-floor is not passing the heat like an above floor system would. Due to the original house contractor (1964) not installing (skimping) a course of block in the house foundation, I was unable to gain the space I needed between the basement door and the addition door right above it. I would have liked to maybe put a concrete slab down with the Pex in it. Then the ceramic on that.
The permit lists the room as a Three Season Room. Unless I tweek this a bit it will be just that.

Bob

Bob:

If you can get at the underside of that heated floor, staple insulation over the studs so the heat can only go up where you want it. I've got hot water PEX under the upstairs bath floor, with that aluminum-sided bubble-pack insulation stapled  underneath it. That is the best part about this house. A heated Mexican tile floor in the john.

[W1ATR]

Bob:

The HE in most instant on's is usually made of either inconel, titanium alloy tubing, or most common, stainless.

I did a few staple up systems to date and always had mediocre results such as what your having. The extremely poor transfer rate of a staple up will make most people shy away from radiant floors forever. As Bill said, if you can get to the underside, make sure that the piping is touching the subfloor as much as possible and then get some foil backed insulation and pack the bays with the foil vapor barrier facing up towards the pipe but don't jam it right up against the pipe. Try to leave a 2-3 inch air space between the subfloor and the foil. This is the way staple ups are supposed to be installed per manufacturers specs, and it tends to help direct more of the heat radiating from the pipe towards the subfloor.

Watts makes a system of panels the lay down on the floor using about an inch of space the allow the pipe to be snapped into place and the finish flooring, whether poured gypsum and tile, or nailed down hardwood, is then run over the top of that. I did a second floor like that on a remodeling job and the results were premium. The floors (this one was hardwood) worked perfectly, but tended to creak as the floor came up to temp. (Only a problem on first startup)

SK

[AB3L]

I did a few staple up systems to date and always had mediocre results such as what your having. The extremely poor transfer rate of a staple up will make most people shy away from radiant floors forever. As Bill said, if you can get to the underside, make sure that the piping is touching the subfloor as much as possible and then get some foil backed insulation and pack the bays with the foil vapor barrier facing up towards the pipe but don't jam it right up against the pipe. Try to leave a 2-3 inch air space between the subfloor and the foil. This is the way staple ups are supposed to be installed per manufacturers specs, and it tends to help direct more of the heat radiating from the pipe towards the subfloor.

Watts makes a system of panels the lay down on the floor using about an inch of space the allow the pipe to be snapped into place and the finish flooring, whether poured gypsum and tile, or nailed down hardwood, is then run over the top of that. I did a second floor like that on a remodeling job and the results were premium. The floors (this one was hardwood) worked perfectly, but tended to creak as the floor came up to temp. (Only a problem on first startup)

SK

I used the Veiga extruded plates under the floor with the snap in channel. Two runs in each bay. I did put the foil sandwich bubble sheets right below the tubing and then R30 glass below that. The 16 x 20 room has 14 double hung windows and two triangular transom windows above that. 10 feet at the highest point down to 7-1/2 or so at the side walls. Probably would have helped to have more solid insulated wall space but it will be airyfrom spring to fall.
I have pipe in to the end wall with the transoms and the six windows. Future fin tube installation.
The underside is a story off the ground and has 3/8" plywood to the weather. Might help someday to put a slab down and then wall in the space to provide a tempered off area under the room.

The floor provides a real nice feel to the feet and legs. If I was to build I would go hot water and an A/C system for the summer.

*******

Bill, that warm floor must make you want to stay and read more of the morning paper!

[W1RKW]

The rotten egg odor you maybe smelling is a result of iron in the water, iron bacteria specifically.  I have the same problem here as this area here has an extremely high iron content in the water.  When I first moved here and did whites (underwear) in the wash using chlorine bleach as I used to do, I ruined everything. Everything that was white turned orange. Using chlorine bleach causes the iron to precipitate. I also had problems with the white fixtures staining all the time. It was a real chore to keep things clean and white.  I got ticked off enough to spend $1500.00 into an iron filtration system (birm filter).  All my problems went away and I don't have to maintain it like a water softener either.  I've had it for 6 years now and no smell on the hot or cold water sides and everything remains clean even the clothes. And I have never had to touch the filtration system as it maintains itself.  Water coming out of my tap is like spring water. 

Calculating the cost of using a water softener vs. the birm filter after 5 years I would have spent the same amount of money in the equipment and chemicals. At this point it's paying for itself.

[Bill, KD0HG]

Is it possible to use some sort of solar collector to work with the boiler in a hot water system? Like used for domestic hot water, but for heating.