Should a licensed General be asking this question?

[K3ZS]

When the FCC created, in effect,  the new license classes, they should have created new names for them.    Then those of us who got them under the old regulations would not feel so bad about having our accomplishments devalued.   

[The Slab Bacon]

This kind of issue ALWAYS becomes a good pissing match.

I have and will always go out of my way to help out a newbie. I may get a little acid tongued and sarcastic here, but that is uaually in fun. Anyone that knows me personally knows what I'm about. If the older hams dont make an effort to help out the newer ones our whole hobby will turn to shit! In my newbie days I got quite a few pointers from the others around me. This is not just true of ham radio, but other hobbies, and life as well. When someone that you think knows more than you talks, you listen. That is the way that you learn things. Short and simple.

But as a newbie you should EXPECT an occasional "poke in the ribs" from some of the elders. It is usually done in fun and is a right of passage in any hobby. We have all been on the receiving end of that a few times or so.

However............. one thing that is an annoyance to one who "has been down that road" is when a newbie comes around and starts to try to "strut his stuff" like a bantam rooster with his chest out and his head high and pretend he is someone he is not. As the old saying goes "dont talk the talk unless you can walk the walk"!!  Lets face it, in whatever circles you travel, you have to pay your dues to get to the top. I have been there many times in life.

If a newbie comes to me for help and is humble about his being a newbie, I will always go out of my way to help him and teach him.
That is what life is all about!!

However.............. If a newbie comes around me and pretends to be what he is not, I'm gonna set a trap for them. And I'm gonna have fun with them and chastise them anyway I can. Its all a matter of paying your dues. Like I said before dont "talk the talk unless you can walk the walk!!" 

As far as the code thing goes, dropping it may well be the best "shot in the arm" that our hobby has had in years. I dont have a problem with it. But it would be nice if those of us that did it did get some kind of "boyscout merit badge" for having done it. Some kind of recognition would be nice.

As far as the testing structure goes, I still feel that they SHOULD publish the questions, but NOT publish the answers so there would be a little more research and learning / retention with it instead of memorization of answers. When I took my extra written, I walked in cold and passed it. I never even looked at a study guide or answer pool. What I found was pretty interesting, most of the questions were stuff that a good home brewer / builder allready knows and uses! A lot of it was stuff that we take for granted!! Go figger.

I used to help out an amateur radio explorer post some years ago. It amazed me how many of those kids had extra calls!! Lets face it as kids they were able to easily learn to copy code and memorize answers. It came easy to them, but none of them even knew how to solder!! I have since looked most of them up recently, and most of them are no longer lisenced!! Go figger, easy come, easy go!

                                              The Slab Bacon

[W3LSN]

I opened my Kenwood TS-120 for the first time since buying it on eBay 2 weeks ago and found that it has a SSB filter installed. It's a YK-88S 2.4 kHz.
I don't know much about filters, so could someone explain what this filter does?

I second the observation that at least he had the gumption to take the cover off his radio and start asking questions.  That's how it all starts with anyone.

The key word in our hobby is "amateur" and many in our ranks who went off into technical careers forget that it is a hobby populated by all types of people. While the concept of IF filters may still be covered in the General Class exam syllabus, the ticket itself is not a degree or a professional license, nor does it assure any basic level of technical competency. A ham ticket is basically a filter to establish that the licensee has some passing acquaintance with the rules and regulations governing our hobby. On a different level, sitting for the exam helps the licensee to learn the rudiments of how radio communication takes place including nuggets of physics and radio theory.

I've been licensed for over 30-years and have always maintained that some hams take this hobby much too seriously. Their hubris too often acts as a killjoy for someone's budding interest in ham radio.

73, Jim
WA2AJM/3

[AF9J]

Thom,

I went through the same things to an extent, you went through, to get licensed.  I tried studying on my own in 7th grade, and flubbed up the exam.  I went to the local radio club, took the Novice licensing class on Xmas Eve Day, and passed, getting my license in the mail in Feb. 1978.  After that, ham radio almost died for me. 

The local club, made no effort to support the newbs.  No contact was maintained with those of us who took the Novice licensing class.  My parents had the mindset that a 14 year old shouldn't spend more than the cost of a cheap CB for ham gear.  As a result, I almost let my Novice Expire in 1980,when it came up for renewal (luckily mom saw me throwing out the Form 610, and talked me into renewing my license).  I didn't get on the air until 1982 (right after High School graduation). Even then, I had to sneakily buy an HW-16 & HG-10B VFO behind my parents' backs (dad was quite irate that I was using money that I needed for college, to buy radio gear).  I still had no support, so I happily clunked away in the Novice bands, until I transferred to the Univ. of WI to finish Engineering Degree #1.  There, I was finally able to join a radio club that I had access to on a regular basis (B.A.R.S. -  W9YT), and learned about the VE exams being reality (and not just a possibility). I got my General in 1986, Advanced in 1993, Extra in 1994, and the rest is history. 

OK, Buzzard transmission off - the point I'm trying to make, is that I was lucky to even keep my license.  Thom was too.  Most of us who had no help, ended up giving up on Amateur Radio. I don't know of any others from my Novice License class, that are still licensed.  I just realized that I seemed to be heading in the same direction of a  "no support" mindset that many OTs have. That's not good.   By the same token, we also need newbs, who are willing to ask questions, and not blow off the answers.  Still, if knowledge isn't given by us, all of the questions in the world won't do a newbie any good.

73,
Ellen - AF9J
On vacation,and heading out the door soon to look at cheap guitar amps   

[KA1ZGC]

If you think about it, new hams not knowing as much as they did in the past (let's just go with that premise for discussion's sake) is far less of a problem now. Why? The friggin Web! Instead of having one local Elmer, a newbie can have dozens of Elmers, and access to volumes of good info with no more effort than effectively utilizing Google or similar.

Well... yes and no, I'd say.

We have much easier access to reams and reams of information that were previously more difficult to get our hands on. Frank Zappa said it best in Joe's Garage: "Information is not Knowledge".

Most of the newbies flock to the same places, QRZ and eHam. Not to slight those who run those sights (although Fred did royally piss me off some years ago, that's not relevant to this), but the numbers are still stacked the wrong way: 500 people who don't have the answer (or have it totally wrong) to 1 person who has the right answer.

I know, because I've tried to participate in a positive way, only to find there's no way you'd ever see my post because I'm not accosting random strangers and screeching loud enough. The noise floor is just too high to make an effective dent there. It's like trying to find a fart in a jacuzzi.

So, okay, let's go to the ARRL website, then. They may be politically bankrupt, but the first two or three chapters of their handbook were usually a decent crash-course in electronics (in spite of their attempts to revise history such that AM never happened).

Let's see, now... I can read all kinds of different press releases about how the League is patting itself on the ass for some foxhunt / dxpedition / petition / bake sale, no problem. Oh, you want information? Sorry, that's gonna cost you. Yep, we care so much about this hobby that we're going to demand money for access to the information that you as a ham really need.

Sure, the info is out there, but it's scattered in thousands of disparate pages across the dubyah-dubyah-dubyah, and sometimes kept behind locked doors.

About all you have left is this very site. Thank God we don't berate newcomers the way a lot of sites' participants do. If we could pool our collective knowledge into one bound volume, we'd blow the ARRL Handbook completely out of the water.

So your point is well-taken, Steve, but I think the fundamental premise still stands, mostly from sheer numbers alone, though perhaps in a modified form compared to 10 or more years ago.

--Thom
Kilovolts Alter One Zorched Gate Crasher

[wa2zdy]

They don't need to, they've already memorised the license manual.

But what started this thread was a guy who DID ask a question. So your point is rather diminished.

Yes in this case.  I was generalising about the subject overall.

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

You are correct, in that the info is dispersed. That is the very nature of the Web. But you severely limited your search space to Amfone QRZ, eHam, and the ARRL sites. I agree, other than this site, the rest of those are largely useless. But there are 100's if not 1000's of other sites that can easily found and accessed by spending a mere 10 seconds on Google. Many are sites where one can ask questions. More are static sites that contain the answers. To write off 99.9999% of the Web is to completely miss my point.

Just one example. I wanted to build a K9AY loop antenna system. I knew little or nothing of the details of the systems and had no details on how to build one. With just one Google search, I turned up dozens of good links with incredible amounts of detail on the system, its performance, construction details and tips, improvements, modifications and numerous variations. Not only that, the search also yielded sources for parts, details on winding the transformers, grounding concerns and comparisons to other antennas. With that one simple search and a few hours of reading, I had a complete understanding of the theory, design, construction and use of the K9AY antenna system. I was easily able to build one without ever leaving my house; I ordered some of the parts on line too! And the cool thing is that I could have done the same thing if I lived in my current location or Timbuktu.

I would estimate to do something similar in pre-Web days would have required at least one trip to the library and/or book store, or mail ordering a book, a trip or two to various parts suppliers (or mail ordering), and/or rooting through old QSTs or similar, and/or trying to track down someone on the air who had the needed knowledge and getting them to spill their guts. I'm sure this effort would have been not less than a week, if not weeks. And depending on where I lived, the length of this effort could have been months.

So really, even if every existing ham out there was a big jerk and didn't help the newbies, the newbies could still tap way more info than they ever could in the past. That said, I do recognize that having someone actually talk you through something or being physically present is a great thing and something the Web really can't replicate - at least not yet. ;-)

If you think about it, new hams not knowing as much as they did in the past (let's just go with that premise for discussion's sake) is far less of a problem now. Why? The friggin Web! Instead of having one local Elmer, a newbie can have dozens of Elmers, and access to volumes of good info with no more effort than effectively utilizing Google or similar.

Well... yes and no, I'd say.

We have much easier access to reams and reams of information that were previously more difficult to get our hands on. Frank Zappa said it best in Joe's Garage: "Information is not Knowledge".

Most of the newbies flock to the same places, QRZ and eHam. Not to slight those who run those sights (although Fred did royally piss me off some years ago, that's not relevant to this), but the numbers are still stacked the wrong way: 500 people who don't have the answer (or have it totally wrong) to 1 person who has the right answer.

I know, because I've tried to participate in a positive way, only to find there's no way you'd ever see my post because I'm not accosting random strangers and screeching loud enough. The noise floor is just too high to make an effective dent there. It's like trying to find a fart in a jacuzzi.

So, okay, let's go to the ARRL website, then. They may be politically bankrupt, but the first two or three chapters of their handbook were usually a decent crash-course in electronics (in spite of their attempts to revise history such that AM never happened).

Let's see, now... I can read all kinds of different press releases about how the League is patting itself on the ass for some foxhunt / dxpedition / petition / bake sale, no problem. Oh, you want information? Sorry, that's gonna cost you. Yep, we care so much about this hobby that we're going to demand money for access to the information that you as a ham really need.

Sure, the info is out there, but it's scattered in thousands of disparate pages across the dubyah-dubyah-dubyah, and sometimes kept behind locked doors.

About all you have left is this very site. Thank God we don't berate newcomers the way a lot of sites' participants do. If we could pool our collective knowledge into one bound volume, we'd blow the ARRL Handbook completely out of the water.

So your point is well-taken, Steve, but I think the fundamental premise still stands, mostly from sheer numbers alone, though perhaps in a modified form compared to 10 or more years ago.

--Thom
Kilovolts Alter One Zorched Gate Crasher

[Vortex Joe - N3IBX]

I have been licensed for less than two years, took the General 2 weeks after getting my tech.  Used some study guide book.

In the mean time I have accumulated ~ 1500 lbs of BA including a twin 813 600 HB transmitter, R-390A, r-388, SX-42, JVII etc etc.  I am heavy on the gear and light on the experience.

This thread makes me VERY nervous about posting questions here....

My 2c.

Rich

Rich,
      There's no need to feel nervous by posting your questions here, or asking for help whilst you're on the radio. It's one of the ways you'll learn things. I think all of us learn things in different ways. First is by tral and error on our own part, the other is by learning vicariously, by asking the help of others. The other is to read, read, read. Regardless of how much you read on a topic, you'll ultimately find it necessary to learn by doing, and hook things up yourself. If you run into a roadblock (as most of us frequently do), the answers aren't always in a book. You'll need to ask the help of others.

Within reason, there are some topics that we all should know as holders of a General or higher class of license. Since AM is specialized; it falls outside of the realm of "mainstream" or appliance operator type of radio operation. Even those of our ranks who have say a Icom 706, a small antenna tuner, and a G5RV, will have questions about it's operation, band conditions, etc etc. The more specialized you go, the more questions you'll have.

I think I speak for everyone here by saying PLEASE post your questions. You'll almost always get a helpful response. If you exhibit that you've tried to do something yourself and run into trouble, at least you've showed initiative on your own, and didn't expect something to be handed to you on a silver platter.

If you have interest on "Boatanchor" type rigs, as some, if mot most of us do, you'll inevitively run into trouble, and will need to enlist the help of others.

Bear in mind, that just about all of us came into our knowledge by a combination of being "Elmered" and trial and error 

[KA1ZGC]

You are correct, in that the info is dispersed. That is the very nature of the Web. But you severely limited your search space to Amfone QRZ, eHam, and the ARRL sites.

I gave those examples because QRZ, eHam, and the ARRL are the first places new hams or prospective new hams go to find information on ham radio (so they're screwed before they even start). I never said the net didn't exist outside of those sites. I'm not talking about you and me, I'm talking about sites that purport to be a place where hams can get the information they need.

That's not "severely limiting", that's called "relevant examples".

BTW, The Web was never meant to be 10,000 disparate, disconnected sources of information. That was never supposed to be "the very nature of the Web". We already had that with usenet, gopher and other DARPA-era information services. The Web was meant to tie all these sources together. The fact that search engines are a necessity is proof that the plan didn't come off as intended.

Trust me, I've been on the net since the early 80s (10+ years before the general public was allowed in), I remember all the hype behind NCSA Mosaic, HTML, HTTP, and how every single source of information would just naturally point to every other single source of information. It was a great idea, it just never happened that way.

I know, because I was there.

I agree, other than this site, the rest of those are largely useless. But there are 100's if not 1000's of other sites that can easily found and accessed by spending a mere 10 seconds on Google. Many are sites where one can ask questions. More are static sites that contain the answers. To write off 99.9999% of the Web is to completely miss my point.

I got your point, Steve. Just because you haven't changed someone's mind doesn't mean they missed your point, okay? It drives me nuts when people say things like that!

Sorry, but I don't have time to scour the entire net to come up with a few more examples just for the sake of this discussion, or to satisfy some arbitrary statistical minimum sampling volume. I didn't "write off" anything, because I'm not offering a complete soup-to-nuts analysis of What's Out There(tm). Why you would expect me to is beyond me. That would take years, and my posts are long enough already.

Just one example. I wanted to build a K9AY loop antenna system. I knew little or nothing of the details of the systems and had no details on how to build one. With just one Google search, I turned up dozens of good links with incredible amounts of detail on the system, its performance, construction details and tips, improvements, modifications and numerous variations.

That's great, if you already know what you're looking for, which you obviously did. Bad example.

Can you go to Google, tell it what you want in an antenna, what your physical restrictions are, what bands you want to work, what kind of performance you're looking for, and have it suggest some antenna designs?

No, you can't, and you didn't. You heard about the K9AY antenna somewhere, and looked it up. Apples and oranges. When you can do that, I might accept the premise that Google has replaced the need for elmering. In the meantime, not a chance.

I would estimate to do something similar in pre-Web days would have required at least one trip to the library and/or book store, or mail ordering a book, a trip or two to various parts suppliers (or mail ordering), and/or rooting through old QSTs or similar, and/or trying to track down someone on the air who had the needed knowledge and getting them to spill their guts. I'm sure this effort would have been not less than a week, if not weeks. And depending on where I lived, the length of this effort could have been months.

All of which are things you still have to do, the only difference is the lack of a trip to the library (unless you don't actually own a computer, then guess where you'd be going for net access).

So really, even if every existing ham out there was a big jerk and didn't help the newbies, the newbies could still tap way more info than they ever could in the past.

So why does each new ham know less about radio than the last new ham? Actually, you're about to answer that for me:

That said, I do recognize that having someone actually talk you through something or being physically present is a great thing and something the Web really can't replicate - at least not yet. ;-)

BINGO!!

I knew you'd see it my way! 

--Thom
Kraft Advertisement One Zesty Grated Cheese

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

Can you go to Google, tell it what you want in an antenna, what your physical restrictions are, what bands you want to work, what kind of performance you're looking for, and have it suggest some antenna design

No, you can't, and you didn't. You heard about the K9AY antenna somewhere, and looked it up. Apples and oranges. When you can do that, I might accept the premise that Google has replaced the need for elmering. In the meantime, not a chance.

Depending on how well you define the search parameters, I'd say you very well may be able to get that using Google. Conversely, you aren't necessarily going to get that from an Elmer either. And I must point out, I never said Google was a replacement for an Elmer.

Trust me, I've been on the net since the early 80s (10+ years before the general public was allowed in), I remember all the hype behind NCSA Mosaic, HTML, HTTP, and how every single source of information would just naturally point to every other single source of information. It was a great idea, it just never happened that way.

I know, because I was there.

I was there too and I never heard those claims, at least not by anyone who actually knew what they were talking about. Search and info retrieval work has always been a part of the Internet scene (actually predates it). Google is but one present day incarnation.

So why does each new ham know less about radio than the last new ham?

Strawman. Provide legitimate proof this statement is true. Even if it were true, it's irrelevant. It's not about what you know when you get your license, but what you learn after. There are many ways to learn. Elmering is but one. It is not the only one or always even the best one. That's all I'm saying.

I completely agree with you. All of us should do more to Elmer or whatever you want to call the process of recruiting and mentoring new hams. If every ham Elmered but one person, we immediately double our ranks!

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

Actual Google search

directional, 160 meters small OR size "receiving antenna"


First link returned:

Receiving antennas : Antennas: Receiving
A Small Wire Loop Antennas for 160 meters - Low noise, receive only coax loop .... The K9AY Terminated Loop - A compact directional receiving antenna ...
www.dxzone.com/catalog/Antennas/Receiving/ - 48k - Cached - Similar pages

[WBear2GCR]

What's up with this Elmer thing?
Last time I looked Elmer was associated with white glue! 
Now I'm not being racist here, it's just that Elsie apparently is Elmer's beau, and they both be black & white bovines whose names and faces are closely linked to the world of white glue. So now, what does that have to do with helping people in Ham Radio? I mean, really, if it's HAM radio, wouldn't "Porky" be a better fit? Besides, the guy who helped me most when I was a novice and newbie was named Bob.

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

Porky's! Now there was a great movie.

[KA1ZGC]

Strawman. Provide legitimate proof this statement is true. Even if it were true, it's irrelevant.

A direct response to something you said is, by definition, neither a strawman nor irrelevant, Steve.

You know full well there can be no "legitamate proof" of any subjective statement, so you set yourself up for an automatic "win". That's an ancient usenet deflection tactic that I stopped falling for eons ago.

We agree that there is a paucity of elmers in the hobby. Let's just leave it at that and abandon the semantics argument. I think we've beaten this thread pretty well to death by now.

--Thom
Killer Agony One Zipper Got Caught

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

It's not about a win or usenet tactics. Maybe it is for you, but don't project that onto me. That's also another usenet tactic.  ;-)

Ref:

http://amfone.net/Amforum/index.php?topic=12742.msg94637#msg94637

Strawman. Provide legitimate proof this statement is true. Even if it were true, it's irrelevant.

A direct response to something you said is, by definition, neither a strawman nor irrelevant, Steve.

You know full well there can be no "legitamate proof" of any subjective statement, so you set yourself up for an automatic "win". That's an ancient usenet deflection tactic that I stopped falling for eons ago.

We agree that there is a paucity of elmers in the hobby. Let's just leave it at that and abandon the semantics argument. I think we've beaten this thread pretty well to death by now.

--Thom
Killer Agony One Zipper Got Caught

[KB2WIG]

My elmer............

[Vortex Joe - N3IBX]

Porky's! Now there was a great movie.

That is truly quite a message!

[Vortex Joe - N3IBX]

What's up with this Elmer thing?
Last time I looked Elmer was associated with white glue! 
Now I'm not being racist here, it's just that Elsie apparently is Elmer's beau, and they both be black & white bovines whose names and faces are closely linked to the world of white glue. So now, what does that have to do with helping people in Ham Radio? I mean, really, if it's HAM radio, wouldn't "Porky" be a better fit? Besides, the guy who helped me most when I was a novice and newbie was named Bob.

Bear,
      You never "Elmered" or have been "Elmered"?

      I've been "Porked" a few times myself - hi!

[W4RON]

I've been "Porked" a few times myself - hi!
[/quote]

I guess your definition of "porked" isn't that same as mine,
or you wouldn't have told that...Hi Hi

Reminds me of the time 20+ years ago, I was at the Charlotte
Hamfest talking to a old friend who was in his 80s
when another old friend, also in his 80s walked up and one looked
at the other and said "you're looking mighty gay today..."
I thought to myself that if someone said that to me I'd punch him in the nose.

Words mean different things to different generations I guess.

Ron

[The Slab Bacon]

      I've been "Porked" a few times myself - hi!

NOW, THAT'S QUITE A MESSAGE!!

[Vortex Joe - N3IBX]

I've been "Porked" a few times myself - hi!

I guess your definition of "porked" isn't that same as mine,
or you wouldn't have told that...Hi Hi

Reminds me of the time 20+ years ago, I was at the Charlotte
Hamfest talking to a old friend who was in his 80s
when another old friend, also in his 80s walked up and one looked
at the other and said "you're looking mighty gay today..."
I thought to myself that if someone said that to me I'd punch him in the nose.

Words mean different things to different generations I guess.

Ron
[/quote]


Ron,
     Vernacular is a funny thing. In late 19th Century New York City, "Gay" meant being a prostitute!

BTW, Did you ever find that elusive knob you were looking for to restore a receiver you were working on? I looked through my knob stash and unfortunately didn't have one. If I did, you would have owned it.

Hope to hear you on the air sometime, AM, of course!

Best Regards,
                 Joe Cro N3IBX

[Vortex Joe - N3IBX]

      I've been "Porked" a few times myself - hi!

NOW, THAT'S QUITE A MESSAGE!!

Have you gone bezerk???

Listening for that little Voice in the Wilderness.........

Happy Thanksgiving homecoming week

[W4RON]

[quote author=Vortex Joe - N3IBX
BTW, Did you ever find that elusive knob you were looking for to restore a receiver you were working on? I looked through my knob stash and unfortunately didn't have one. If I did, you would have owned it.
[/quote]

Hi Joe, yes I hope to catch you on 75 AM sometime too.
And No I have not found the EIS/GR knob, I'm beginning to think
that there are no more of them out there.
A good friend gave me one he had so I only need one to complete
the Leutz C-7 Special.
I know they didn't make many of those radios, but there's just
got to be one more knob laying out there in somebodies junk box.

For those that don't know what we're talking about, here's
a link to a page with photos of the elusive knob in question.

That's a nice Leutz I saw in the pics of your stash,
I'd love to see a shot of the inside sometime.


73 all, happy AMing

W4Ron

.

[KA1ZGC]

It's not about a win or usenet tactics. Maybe it is for you, but don't project that onto me. That's also another usenet tactic.  ;-)

HAH! Touche'! 

I guess this is another thread we'll have to revisit on the air someday. I'm getting real good at quick-tuning the Junkyard Dawg to the 3725 neighborhood. I hear you on, but you're always gone by the time I get there.

Besides, we still have that major league baseball discussion we haven't finished yet. 

Okay, guys... I really am done now. It's safe to get back in the water.

Thanks for listening, and be sure to tip your waitress.

--Thom
Killer Album One Zappa's Greatest Compositions

[W4RON]

http://radioheaven.homestead.com/GRknob.html

I must have been a sleepy, I forgot to include the link,
thanks to Joe for reminding me.

73 all,

Ron