Should a licensed General be asking this question?

[KA1ZGC]

Hmmm.... Thom, who exactly are you referring to?  I don't know of a single AM operator who hasn't, is or would help anyone who asked.

Did I say anything about AM?

I'm not singling anyone out, that's why I said "us". It's not about mode, it's about mentality. It's a lot easier to blame someone's lack of knowledge on a thousand other factors than it is to fill in the gaps.

BTW, I've heard plenty of people with a carrier and two sidebands essentially wash their hands of newcoming hams. Again, it's not mode-specific. I can name names if you prefer, but then I too fall into the blame game.

It's not an AM thing, it's something I hear in every walk of ham radio, and it's the reason so many licensees have learned/are learning little-to-nothing about radio.

It's too simple to blame it on the VE program, or the no-code license, or what-have-you; and then write these people off as not worth the effort and excuse ourselves from trying to get some of them up to speed. We owe it to those who taught us to pass those teachings on.

Plenty of us do, but more of us need to.

That's all I'm saying.

--Thom
Killer Aircraft One Zeppelin Goes Crash

[W1RKW]

Holy crap.  Jack is back.  Hi Jack!  Note: Not to be confused with hijacking an airplane.

Good Evening All,

 The Thing is, this is actually to be Expected. I don't have a problem when a prospect asks a question, it's when they don't and get into some type of mess, for a better word i guess.

 One of the greatest aspects of this forum is that very situation..why i always consider my roots from here..but Hey standardize the tests standardize the outcome...it wasn't my ideal.

[K1MVP]

Nobody was born with this knowledge. We all had to learn it from somewhere. There was a time in all our lives when none of us have known the answer to that question, thankfully there were others around who were willing to explain it to us.

Those days are over, and that's what's to blame for the "dumbing down" of the hobby. Not the VE program, not the code-free licenses, not QRZ, not eHam, but every single licensed ham who holds back on passing on what others once passed on to them.

I'll say it again: shame on us for ever letting it get this bad.

--Thom
Kilowatt Amplifier One Zero Grid Current

OK Tom,
I should know better than to jump into the "hornets nest" by now,--this / these issues have been
discussed "ad infinatum" as to the reasons HR is in this "mess".
You have a "right" to your opinion, and I have a right to mine.(again IMO)

I think its "simplistic" to blame hams in general cause they don`t "mentor" .
The point I have tried to make,(about the ARRL and VEC) and the powers that be , is that the existing
exam IS watered down,--(forget the cw)-- just about anyone now can go from "zip" to "extra"
with a couple of days of "craming amd jamming" and get a ticket.

You mentioned "mentors",--ok that goes back a long ways, BUT a prospective ham, (years ago)
was in most cases mentored BEFORE he applied for a ticket, and that ticket usually was the novice class.

One did not start as a General or Extra years ago,with the "zip" for experience or knowledge and
THEN expect to be "spoon fed" by other hams with more experience.

Again,--its the "cart before the horse" synderome that the powers that be have promoted over
the past years, that many OT`s have a problem with.
 
                                                    73, K1MVP

P.S., there is one thing worse than an OT who thinks he "knows it all" and that is a "newbie" who
       thinks he knows it all.--again IMO.

[W7SOE]

Looks like he may be on the right track, even if he did use "memory tricks" to pass his test.  Maybe someone who lives near his QTH should invite him over and introduce him to AM.  He might be a  good prospect.

Unless he reads this thread, in which case he will leave the hobby I am sure.

[Jim, W5JO]

One of the things I have noticed about this board versus others is the way members respond to questions by individuals.  Here the answers are given without ridicule straight forward.  

On other forums, I have seen several consecutive posts following the question that state the guy is an idiot or he should know better and quick quips of "look it up" with no reference as to where to look.

That type of response has the effect of making someone new drop the hobby or neglect it.  We have some mentoring to do that is for sure, and if you do it in a kind and helpful way, you will see a new ham emerge willing to help others down the road.  I should hope that anyone, no matter their knowledge level, feels as if they can post here or on AMRadio without fear of being ridiculed for their questions.

[wa2zdy]

Those who blame the exams being dumbed down are on the right track.   The problem is that the SYSTEM has been dumbed down.

It used to be that one needed to be elmered to know enough to pass the test and succeed at getting on the air.   To know the needed stuff one had to be motivated enough to learn it.   Now the test can be memorised from a book, thus newbies don't need to seek out elmers.   Just one day a new, knows just enough to get in trouble, ham, shows up on your block or on the air.  And this is what we end up with.

That's not to blame the newbies.  They did what was required of them and having passed a "federal radio exam," they have been led to believe they know what's needed.   The cruel joke is on them, unless they don't care about anything more than "them thar extree channels them hamz have."   And sadly there are enough of them to sour the bunch too.

If a newbie comes to me I'll help the best I can.   But nobody has done so in many years.  They don't need to, they've already memorised the license manual.

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

They don't need to, they've already memorised the license manual.

But what started this thread was a guy who DID ask a question. So your point is rather diminished.

[ka3zlr]

Holy crap.  Jack is back.  Hi Jack!  Note: Not to be confused with hijacking an airplane.

Good Evening All,

 The Thing is, this is actually to be Expected. I don't have a problem when a prospect asks a question, it's when they don't and get into some type of mess, for a better word i guess.

 One of the greatest aspects of this forum is that very situation..why i always consider my roots from here..but Hey standardize the tests standardize the outcome...it wasn't my ideal.

LOL...Hi Bobby...How ya doen bud...

[KA1ZGC]

You have a "right" to your opinion, and I have a right to mine.

Interesting how you have a right to your opinion, but I only have a "right" to mine. Do you have any idea how that makes you sound?

I think its "simplistic" to blame hams in general cause they don`t "mentor" .

I think it's simplistic to blame the VE program.

You mentioned "mentors",--ok that goes back a long ways, BUT a prospective ham, (years ago) was in most cases mentored BEFORE he applied for a ticket, and that ticket usually was the novice class.

I got my Novice, through the VE program. Wierd, huh?

I hope you're not suggesting that all elmering halted once someone got licensed. It's not like everyone who got licensed had nothing more to learn once they got their tickets. Elmers were usually there to help with operating practices, another trend that died a quick death.

One did not start as a General or Extra years ago,with the "zip" for experience or knowledge and
THEN expect to be "spoon fed" by other hams with more experience.

Interesting how you were taught, and everyone else is "spoon fed".

I guess nobody ever gave you any guidance once you were on the air. Imagine how much you'd have learned if your elmer(s) thought of teaching you as "spoon feeding".

Again,--its the "cart before the horse" synderome that the powers that be have promoted over the past years, that many OT`s have a problem with.

Fine, but don't use that as an excuse to withold knowledge so you can turn and blame the lack of knowledge on the VE program. Cursing the darkness doesn't turn on any lights.

P.S., there is one thing worse than an OT who thinks he "knows it all" and that is a "newbie" who thinks he knows it all.

That could only be meant as a personal attack against me. I won't stoop that low, but I will point out that when those superioristic tactics are employed it's frequently because one is afraid he may be mistaken. Better to ridicule that discuss.

BTW, there's something far worse than either: an OT who knows the answer but refuses to share it because of the way somebody got licensed.

I'm sure you were trying to counter my point of view, but you're actually making my point for me. Next time you engage me in conversation, see if you can do it without looking at me past the end of your nose.

Thanks for reinforcing my point, though I really didn't need your help.

Have a great day!

--Thom
Killer Appetizer One Zesty German Chocolate

[W7SOE]

I have been licensed for less than two years, took the General 2 weeks after getting my tech.  Used some study guide book.

In the mean time I have accumulated ~ 1500 lbs of BA including a twin 813 600 HB transmitter, R-390A, r-388, SX-42, JVII etc etc.  I am heavy on the gear and light on the experience.

This thread makes me VERY nervous about posting questions here....

My 2c.

Rich

[KA1ZGC]

This thread makes me VERY nervous about posting questions here....

Don't be. Most people here are very forthcoming with real answers to questions.

All you're seeing here is a cultural divide. We'll all be friends when it's all said and done.

--Thom
Kilowatt Amplifier One Zero Grid Current

[W7SOE]

I HAVE received a great deal of help here. 

Rich

[ka3zlr]

I HAVE received a great deal of help here. 

Rich

Hello There Rich and Everyone,

 As I have too OM, there is a world of information to be found within the membership of this forum, and alot of Fun...


jack KA3ZLR

[Mac]

I am kind of the new kid on the block here. Have learned a lot from some of the posts here. I finally broke down on 11/19/07 took and passed my Tech test. I have been in and around radios since the 70's. Been on AM and will always be on AM. Started "free banding" in the 80's,,,,, yea ,,,yea  I know,,, "Bad Mac",,, "Bad Mac",,,I have a AA Degree and worked in the Electonics industry for about 10 yrs.
Most of the knowledge I got was from reading,,,actual hands on and my design work. Two reasons why I didnt try for my ticket befor now was "the dreaded code",,, ,, and the sarcastic and pompous attitudes of some ham folks!!! Seems that every time I asked a question,,, I got  some of the same things that have been said in this thread,, with a "better than tho" demeanor. I agree that some folks are not doing any work or getting their hands dirty and learning. But with the degrading, and taunting remarks that have been posted is it any wonder why fewer and fewer are even interested in the world of amature radio. It would have been nice to have somebody help, (mentor) me along the way. It just didn't happen.  And it still isn't in other areas. I was received here with warmth and acceptance. Got a lot of questions answered and have learned a great deal since I joined. I am hopeing that I can still get good info and direction from you guys that are more knowledgable than I. I plan to continue learning and will achieve "Extra".
Have a great day
Mac

[Rick K5IAR]

I am hopeing that I can still get good info and direction from you guys that are more knowledgable than I. I plan to continue learning and will achieve "Extra".
Have a great day

Good for you, Mac.  We all learn from each other or should.  It doesn't matter how long we have been a ham radio operator we still have plenty to learn.  As in all walks of life there are some who feel they are a cut above everyone else.  I have found that in the AM community that number is very, very small.  One of the most rewarding things you can do in Amateur Radio is to see "newbies" advance.  Some folks are better at teaching or "Elmering" than are others, but I feel all amateurs have a desire to help their fellow operator or at least I hope it's that way.  Some of us, like me, may not have much technical knowledge to share, but a kind word of encouragement goes just as far.  Thanks for being here, Mac, and all the others who are just starting out.  It's a wonderful hobby and there is plenty of room for everyone.

73,
Rick/K5IAR

[Mac]

Hello Rick,,,
Thanks much for the kind words.  I feel kind of good that I studied, had some practical experience and just a "little" bit of knowledge to help me over the first hurdel. I have no intentions of stopping here. As long as I can learn and get a little bit better then my plans are to obtain the Extra ticket. I may not know all the proper words or correct jargan "yet" but this old man is gonna get there. And I have worked AM for all these years,,, dont see any reason to stop!! I think we have talked before via e-mail,,, Again thank your words of incouragement.

73's Mac,,,

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

And you will continue to receive help. Just ignore those who would rather P&M than help.

I HAVE received a great deal of help here. 

Rich

[AF9J]

I enjoy elmering.  I also used to teach licensing classes in the 90s, at the local radio club.   In retrospect, I stand guilty as charged of being an arrogant jerk in my first post on this thread.  Comments like mine, don't make for a receptive learning environment.  We all have to start somewhere.  As others have said - if questions aren't asked by people, things won't be learned.  I've found this group to be one of the most helpful & giving internet ham groups I've ever encountered, learning much in the process.

73,
Ellen - AF9J

[Mac]

Now there is something I got right off the bat P&M,,,LOL,, I know what that means I think that the people I  "bumped" into along the way were not AM'ers. But if I spoke out of turn, I ment no disrespect to anyone here at this forum.  It just that those other folks were just plain smart azzes. But as I said,, the people here have been great,, informative and very helpful in questions I have already asked. So my plans are to be around here for a long time, with lots a questions and to give whatever I can to contribute to this forum. Nothing beats AM!!!!!!!
Thanks to all.....
73
Mac

[K1MVP]

ZGC,--Tom,
I know we have talked before on 75,--and we both DID agree on many issues(problems)
with the ARRL, and I found you an interesting guy to talk to on the air.

As I mentioned before,--I thought I might be getting back into a "rats nest" by attempting
to discuss, or "air" my opinions on this issue.(for the umpteenth time)

It was NOT my intent to "tweak" or get you or anyone else upset.

AS far as "sharing" and "helping",--ask most anyone who knows me personally,--I have
always been willing to help a newcomer, and have also been willing to ask for help if
and when I need it.

I do not blame the newcomer for the "system", but the "system" is what it is, IMO.
Again, -- it was NOT my intent to "tick you off", and if I did so, I apoligize.

                                             73, K1MVP
                                                  

[KA1ZGC]

Rene,

No, you didn't tick me off, and I never take anything like this discussion personally.

A long, old-buzzard editorial transmission follows, which should explain my point of view a little better.

We've got our whole lives to come to a consensus on this, and I'm sure we will someday.

--Thom
Keep Away One Zorched Ground Conductor

[KA1ZGC]

I just want to make sure I'm not leaving the wrong impression as a result of my passion for this particular topic.

I have seen with my own eyes/heard with my own ears this wall grow between generations of ham radio licensees. It's not at any one point in history, but different people seem to have given up on The Future Of Ham Radio(tm) at different stages of change in the status quo.

There are some who say It All Went To Hell In A Handbasket(tm) when incentive licensing came about. Others beg to differ, insisting that moment was when the VE program was put in place. Yet others would insist that moment happened with novice expansion. Another crowd would assert that the no-code tech was The Straw That Broke The Camel's Back(tm). Then, there's the bunch over in this corner who say code elimination was ham-radiocide.

No matter where these lines are drawn, altogether too many of the people who hold these views have fallen into the trap of using these views as an excuse not to help those that clearly give a damn and want to learn, all because someone's lack of knowledge at a given moment somehow disqualifies them from ever being provided that knowledge.

This thinking is Just Plain Broken(tm).

I earned my Novice in 1991 (check your calendars, that was a while ago now) through the VE program. I studied my ass off since the mid '80s (only half-assed the code for years, which is why it took so long). Never had an elmer, but never had to crack a single book between getting my Novice and getting my Advanced a few years later.

I could have easily walked out of that session with my Tech license, but opted to stop at Novice. Why? Because nearly everbody I heard on the air up to that point had already made up their minds that anyone coming on the air with an "N1" 1x3 callsign wasn't going to be worth talking to.

Well, many of those people never learned a damn thing from having their licenses, only because the people who would talk to me (I had a "KA1" call, so I was obviously a good boy, right?) wouldn't even acknowledge the existance of any "N1" call they weren't already familiar with, let alone answer any of their questions.

So I've watched/listened, over the last 16 or so years, as all these new licensees have struggled in the dark, having only each other to ask questions of, either to be met with "I don't know, either" or worse: someone who gives a completely bogus answer in a way that makes them sound like they know what they're talking about.

Now, after all these years, I get to listen to those who refused to rake the lawn complain about all the damn leaves. Worse, I'm expected to take this as some kind of valid complaint.

Pardon me while I gut-laugh.

Having said all that, let me point out that the primary reason I get on this board (or for that matter, operate AM) is because somehow that all gets checked at the door. This is one of the few places in ham radio where someone can ask a simple question and actually get an answer. Not a "you should know that already, you idiot", but an actual answer that's actually correct.

No, I'm not aiming this rant at the AM crowd. This is for ham radio in general. Fortunately, the AM crowd are some of the last willing to give an answer to a question, so I'm hoping I am addressing a crowd that already recognizes how much better off many of these new hams would be with the right kind of encouragement.

No, we can't save them all. Just like the rest of humanity, there are a whole lot of people holding licenses who simply aren't going anywhere. There always were, at every point in Ham Radio History(tm). That doesn't automatically mean everyone whose license may have come about a different way than ours doesn't deserve the effort that someone else once put into us.

We may not be able to help them all, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to help as many as we possibly can.

If nothing else, it would make our own on-air experiences that much more tolerable.

Again, none of this is aimed at anyone here, but I'm coming up on two decades of want to get this The Hell Off My Chest(tm), and well hey, look... here's an opportunity now!

I hope I cleared this up for anyone who may have thought I was saying any of this to spite anyone in particular or draw anyone into some kind of debate. Nope, just the goatcheese editorializing, P&Ming, and getting a few things out of his system while The Getting's Good(tm).

If you read this far, I salute you. I do tend to old-buzzard. Thanks for listening, I'm done now.

'nite!

--Thom
Kerosene Apparatus One Zooming Golf Cart

p.s. Those items marked "(tm)" might just be someone's trademarks, or I might just be goofing off. You be the judge.

[Steve - WB3HUZ]

Nicely stated Thom. If you think about it, new hams not knowing as much as they did in the past (let's just go with that premise for discussion's sake) is far less of a problem now. Why? The friggin Web! Instead of having one local Elmer, a newbie can have dozens of Elmers, and access to volumes of good info with no more effort than effectively utilizing Google or similar. Use the force Luke.

[kb3nqd]

At the risk of stirring things up....It seems to me that everyone kind of forgets that in the early days of Ham radio all you had to do was pay a license fee to get your ticket.  That is if I am remembering my history correctly.

[N3DRB The Derb]

I dont think so, no even in teh days of the FRC.