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Author Topic: And now for some more audiophool nonsense!  (Read 27185 times)
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AF9J
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« on: October 05, 2007, 06:56:40 AM »

I just got these links from a friend of mine, who said I'd get a good laugh out of them.  The first link (which is logical, and makes sense) sets the tone for the absoulute scientific nonsense given in the second link (which had me LMAO).

Here's the first link:

http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/10/04/1354224

Here's the second link.  Notice the completely ridiculous claims made about these "special", overpriced (can you say $2750 for a 3 foot pair?) cables:

http://www.pearcable.com/sub_products_anjou_sc.htm

73,
Ellen - AF9J
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« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2007, 09:51:48 AM »

Wow!! I need a pair of them thar speaker wires...so I can enjoy the esoteric wonders of the sound of  beautiful AM radio.  They should provide for at least a 50dB gain in signal to noise ratio at 40 kHz!  Certainly needed by those with hearing into the ultrasonic range.   Besides that...they're purrty!

Oh my....don't you wish you had money to burn like that?

73,  Jack, W9GT
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AF9J
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« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2007, 12:30:25 PM »

Jack, I am just DROOLING over them!!!    Cheesy

73,
Ellen - AF9J





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Bill, KD0HG
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« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2007, 01:01:53 PM »

OK, Mack, I want a set of 4/0 copper cables with 1/8" male stereo plugs attached to both ends.
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WBear2GCR
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« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2007, 02:16:30 PM »

Ok, a couple of things here.

First of all, the Randi challenge is a non-challenge, since the proposition is impossible to "prove" - since the only thing I see that is is being asked is to "prove" that something is "better" than another WHEN the only measure is via the subjective perception of humans.

It would be equally impossible to show that one was worse than the other, unless there were extreme and gross differences - since the only tool for making the decision is perception!

For the record it is absolutely trival to measure and show a scientific and objective difference between the two cables mentioned (Pear and Monster). It is extremely difficult to correlate measurable difference to audible perceptions, nearly impossible so far.

THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT THERE ARE NO PERCEPTABLE DIFFERENCES!

It may be true that for 99.999% of the population actual, real, audible differences are unimportant or to subtle to matter. That is not the issue or point.

FYI, there is objective, scientific research that has been recently completed and published in professional Journals that shows that audible differences in things like amplifiers does not correlate at all to absolute THD or IM figures, even when they are on the order of 0.001%!!

Now, with regard to the cost of these cables, on the surface they seem to be absurdly expensive - and they are! BUT, let's just assume for the moment that you are running a company that has determined by whatever means that this design is superior and that you want to produce it, ok?

Now, I haven't read the details of the construction, but let's just assume that they are high purity silver for the benefit of discussion? They might be copper, which is much cheaper. But anyhow, it's not a stock cable/wire, that means you have to order it custom made - that means that you have to buy enough up front from a custom wire mfr, and pay for the set up charges and any special dies or other things plus the wire itself and the materials to extrude it into, ok so far?

I think this cable is 32 strand, each strand enameled.  Roll Eyes
IF it is copper, that is an available non-standard wire strand, if it is silver, not a stock wire, it has to be custom made.

We're assuming silver, so that means you need the silver drawn to diameter, and then enameled before it is stranded into the cable, and then it is jacketed (extruded).
IF you have a 10ft stereo pair, then each leg of each channel has 32 strands x 10ft = 320ft of wire, then x 4 = 1280 feet of custom wire!! I'm going to guesstimate that each strand of the 32 strand bundle costs about 0.50 - 0.95/ft. Assuming the lower value then 1280 ft x 0.50 = $640.00!!

(for the record, copper is probably 5x-10x less expensive, unless it is monocrystaline drawn copper - and don't ask if you don't know what that is about, it's not important)

That's before you run it through the extruder!

After that, you still have to strip the enameled wire, and solder it to a lug that costs more than you think, and then make it cosmetically pleasant in the process.

It also has to be tested, and packaged.

Then there is advertising, marketing, the sales people, shipping and the people who do all this, and the overheads that come with that and keeping the lights on.

The rule of thumb for a buisness is that the product should cost 5x the cost of the materials.

So, where does that leave you, who has decided to actually invest in this biz and build this cable?? What sort of retail price would you put on the product?

Point is that this stuff is not so simple, and we often forget the TRUE COST of something in this world of mass produced high-volume products!! We are spoiled by robotic manufacture and plastic molding! Fact is that low volume or hand made things are not inexpensive, unless you happen to use foreign labor and/or illegal laborers here.

(Nothing I have said should be misconstrued to be a support of Pear company's pricing, designs or products.)

               _-_-bear
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« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2007, 02:23:55 PM »

who uses 3 foot speaker wire for speakers from an amp whether at ten cents  a foot or a thousand dollars a foot.  My reciever is 3 feet off the ground in a rack.  The speakers would hang in the air.

And I wouldn't buy them even if I could afford them.   They're fruity.
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Steve - WB3HUZ
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« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2007, 02:28:02 PM »

Quote
FYI, there is objective, scientific research that has been recently completed and published in professional Journals that shows that audible differences in things like amplifiers does not correlate at all to absolute THD or IM figures, even when they are on the order of 0.001%!!

There is none that shows correlation too. You make absolutely no point with this statement.
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WBear2GCR
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« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2007, 03:57:13 PM »

Sorry HUZman, you fail to understand.

The point is that the standard contention has been that there is no audible difference between amplifiers of sufficiently low "distortion."

The recent research shows a correlation between factors OTHER than the absolute level of "distortion."

You can google Dr. Earl Geddes, if you want to read the material yourself.

That is the point, ok?

         _-_-bear
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« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2007, 04:04:16 PM »

who uses 3 foot speaker wire for speakers from an amp whether at ten cents  a foot or a thousand dollars a foot.  My reciever is 3 feet off the ground in a rack.  The speakers would hang in the air.

And I wouldn't buy them even if I could afford them.   They're fruity.

Of course!

Your receiver is in a rack.  Wink

However, IF you owned "monoblock" amplifiers placed directly behind the speakers, that would be a different story perhaps?

What is fruity is those wierd ham radio guys who build and run big antique AM transmitters, built into one or more racks, with heavy chassis  full of big old parts and wiring harnesses running ye olde tyme vacuum tubes, and that ladder line stuff, rather than a modern sleek solid state rig and a simple coax run out to a dipole or beam... right?   Shocked

Guess it all depends on who you are and what you want to achieve??

Fruity as it may be  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

             _-_-bear
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« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2007, 04:41:40 PM »

Heck, I'm gonna hook my speakers up with some copper PIPE!  Wink  It'll make my music sound FATTER. Thats phat, yo.
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« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2007, 05:04:51 PM »

Maybe I'm missing the tongue in cheek response.  I wasn't calling anyone fruity only the $2750 three foot cables fruity. Afterall, they were named after a pear.
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Bob
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ab3al
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« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2007, 05:07:52 PM »

Just bought a set.  Figure I could use them on my DAVEMADE 16 pill amp for power leads.  I should be puttin out about 650,000 wats to my suv mounted moonraker IV with rejection Kit.  world wide  Hey james bond how many pouds you got on me cuamon

At the turn of the century snake oild salesman prayed on the little guy.. now they go for the big fish..  gues the working man got smart
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« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2007, 05:10:55 PM »

I'm worried that this thread is tending dangerousely close to violating Prime Directive #6.

    "  No political or religious posts will be tolerated on this site, unless directly related to our hobby. "


 Credo quia absurdum.......  klc
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« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2007, 05:22:48 PM »

The thread looks OK Fine to me!!
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« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2007, 05:39:38 PM »

Ya know...if it makes ya happy go for it! The bottom line is simply that even if it could be somehow proven that there is any significant improvement in sound between using these "gold-plated" cables  and ordinary (large guage) zip cord, most people probably couldn't hear the difference anyway.  I doubt if you could establish through sound laboratory process and procedures that there is any real significantly measurable improvement that would result in more than a few tenths of a percentage point.  Again....even so...if your perception is that it is better and you have unlimited resources to spend on such frivilous accessories, by all means ENJOY!!!  I believe I will spend my meager resources on something else. 

 Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

73,  Jack, W9GT
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Steve - WB3HUZ
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« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2007, 06:15:49 PM »

Why didn't you just say that in your original post. I would have understood, at least after a cup of coffee. I'll check out the Geddes reference.


Sorry HUZman, you fail to understand.

The point is that the standard contention has been that there is no audible difference between amplifiers of sufficiently low "distortion."

The recent research shows a correlation between factors OTHER than the absolute level of "distortion."

You can google Dr. Earl Geddes, if you want to read the material yourself.

That is the point, ok?

         _-_-bear
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WBear2GCR
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« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2007, 06:25:05 PM »

Ok, ok.

I need to calm down a little. It's been a wierd day. Sorry.

The only thing here that really bugs me is that broad brush approach to anything expensive that is "audiophile" and the term being applied "audiofool/audiophool" - the implication is obviously that everyone and everything is thus in that realm.

Zip cord is not particularly good for speakers, but it isn't particularly bad either. Fyi.
And, right - for most folks it makes no diff whatsoever.

Copper pipe? Probably too self inductive... otherwise people would be selling it!  Shocked  Grin

So, yeah, the pricing is a bit looney, well quite so.
But, it just might be the bestest sounding cable - or not - and if you can still hear above about 14kHz you're probably able to hear the diff on the right set up.

Just so that you all know, you can get the opportunity to try and hear this sort of thing here for yourselves. It's really not difficult to demonstrate.

In fact for me and others that I do audio with it is a truly confounding effect and an annoyance when things that you really really do not want or expect to have any effect at all obviously do. There have been many days and times when I truly wished that I was absolutely not hearing any differences due to this sort of thing.

Folks who are studied or not in the art of audio have frequently come here (and to other places) and when some small thing was changed have said "what did you do to the sound"?? Which, is the point of my ranting.

                   _-_-bear

               

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« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2007, 06:33:27 PM »

Why didn't you just say that in your original post. I would have understood, at least after a cup of coffee. I'll check out the Geddes reference.

Take a look here for a live example of some of the detail involved, Geddes is the subject, and he is posting:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1317764#post1317764

I didn't go it or into this sort of detail - to the extent that I can keep up with these guys - because this is OT for this forum. You can rumble around the threads on the above site, and the better threads (usually the ones with massive post numbers) have incredible detail and insightful information.

The Geddes thing iirc on his site is a "new audio metric"...

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« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2007, 07:52:09 PM »

I remember back in my studio days in the late 70s, we recorded stuff in a house, and then we built a studio in an office building, but we had no money, so I used a cheap stage board which I modified.

There was a bit of fuzz from the stock audio strips in the board... I modified them one by one as I had a spare hour to do it.  But the sessions just wouldn't stop.  So a few masters got done with less than decent strips.

Somehow, that fuzz got a lot worse when the sound went onto vinyl.  It didn't sound that bad in the studio... It made me sick.  Why did it get that much worse with successive generations?  How could that be?  I don't know.  It just did.

But some distortions didn't get worse; instead, they faded into the background.  The compressor that actually dropped out during some attacks, was known for its quality!  It was basically a Shure Unilevel that I modified for asymmetrical limiting.  It had an extra stage of gain between the variable-gain stage and the output, and they were all push-pull, but the common-mode ran out of oomph sometimes, and that caused a millisecond-range dropout.  Evidently I was the only one who could hear it.  With reverb and other noise going on, the dropouts became inaudible, and all you noticed were the natural sounding vocal dynamics.

Arrgh, the crummy ferrite-head 2-track machine... its distortion got worse with each successive generation.  Did you ever notice the clipping on the vocal in the 1960's "Sunny"?  It was like that, but somehow it didn't sound that way on playback from the master.  But make a dub and listen, and there it was.  I recorded a voiceover by one guy, and man did he sound great, but I couldn't get a decent dub of it to save my life.

And the crummy solid state electronics in the 16-track... really nasty overload characteristics.  But work it just right, and it wasn't an issue.

So if something sounds good, be happy.





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AF9J
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« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2007, 08:01:46 PM »

Be cool people.  I mainly posted this for a chuckle or two.  As for audiophools - I know the term irks some people, but being A musician, I've run into more than my fair share of musicians who fit the description (I'm sure some you other songsters can say the same thing).  Here's an example - some boutique/specialty guitar amp designers insist that cloth covered wire (instead of the more usual plastic covered stuff), is a key to a good sounding guitar amp.  C'mon!, that's silly!  I sort of blew off most of the cable reviewer's comments.  But one of them did annoy me a bit - the comment about how the cables are designed to reduce skin effect (which according to the audio reviewer, can ruin audio). IMO, that's hogwash.  Skin effect doesn't really rear its ugly head up, until frequencies are above 1 MHz.  

73,
Ellen - AF9J
Who just got home from dodging a nasty car bullet - a partial tire failure!
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ab3al
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« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2007, 08:13:44 PM »

the only way for raggae or jazz to sound good on a guitar amp is if the cloth insulation on the wire is made from hemp
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« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2007, 09:03:07 PM »

Here's an example - some boutique/specialty guitar amp designers insist that cloth covered wire (instead of the more usual plastic covered stuff), is a key to a good sounding guitar amp.  C'mon!, that's silly!  I sort of blew off most of the cable reviewer's comments.  But one of them did annoy me a bit - the comment about how the cables are designed to reduce skin effect (which according to the audio reviewer, can ruin audio). IMO, that's hogwash.  Skin effect doesn't really rear its ugly head up, until frequencies are above 1 MHz. 

What really takes the cake with me is the idea of "breaking in" cables.  Some have even claimed to be able to hear an "astounding difference" between a "broken-in" and an "unbroken-in" power cord!

It is extremely difficult to correlate measurable difference to audible perceptions, nearly impossible so far.

THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT THERE ARE NO PERCEPTIBLE DIFFERENCES!

It may be true that for 99.999% of the population actual, real, audible differences are unimportant or to subtle to matter. That is not the issue or point.

FYI, there is objective, scientific research that has been recently completed and published in professional Journals that shows that audible differences in things like amplifiers does not correlate at all to absolute THD or IM figures, even when they are on the order of 0.001%!!

Yes.  It's called the Placebo Effect.
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AF9J
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« Reply #22 on: October 05, 2007, 09:22:20 PM »

the only way for raggae or jazz to sound good on a guitar amp is if the cloth insulation on the wire is made from hemp

Mon! Dose makes de best kind of spliffs!!  De music give de ganja, soul!!  Grin

73,
Ellen - AF9J

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« Reply #23 on: October 05, 2007, 09:33:44 PM »

3 foot pair - $2750
pair of 833's -$1000

sounds about right  Grin
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« Reply #24 on: October 05, 2007, 09:53:01 PM »

The great American showman. P.T. Barnum once said: "There's a sucker born every minute!"

He failed to add: ".....and two to fleece him".

73,

MrMike, W1RC
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