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Author Topic: Gas prices are not encouraging hamfest attendance! How About Alternative Fuels?  (Read 137018 times)
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WA1GFZ
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« Reply #75 on: May 23, 2007, 04:30:03 PM »

corn smash is great fuel but the price shouldn't be higher for less BTUs
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WA1GFZ
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« Reply #76 on: May 23, 2007, 04:33:00 PM »

your right Bob the goal is to pay more for less.
Interesting I notice crappy gas you have to push the gas peddle down further to go the same speed. More air and gas flow through the motor so more crap must come out.
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W8EJO
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« Reply #77 on: May 23, 2007, 05:48:41 PM »

Ethanol is simply a politician's tool for getting the votes of Iowa, Illinois & other midwestern farming states: See: The Many Myths of Ethanol   http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=3204163

To lower gas prices undo the following government starngleholds on the market:

1) Build more refineries now. A new refinery has not been built in the U'S. since 1976 when there were many million fewer motorists. This will increase gasoline supplies & the price will fall.

2) Open up offshore drilling along the FL coast. This would boost U.S. oil production by 1 million barrels a day and gas production by 1.5 trillion cubic feet a year. See:
http://www.tbo.com/news/money/MGBZD2YJI0F.html. This will increase oil & gas on the market & will result in a price drop.

3) Drop the designer gas formulasfor every city & season which cause interruptions in our already maxed out refining capacity.

4) Open ANWAR to drilling now. this will bring at least 10.4 billion barrels to market thereby increasing supply. See: http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/oil/anwar.html

5) Open up the Western states to oil shale production.

6) Allow new U.S. nuclear energy plants. This will decrease the oil needed for oil fired electric palnts thus lowering the demand & the price.

 Note that every problem is a government created problem. Call/write your congressmen & senators now.

Terry
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Terry, W8EJO

Freedom and liberty - extremist ideas since 1776.
n3lrx
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« Reply #78 on: May 23, 2007, 05:54:21 PM »

corn smash is great fuel but the price shouldn't be higher for less BTUs

More work to make the ethanol and Gasoline combine properly. Gasoline and Alcohol (Ethanol is Alcohol) don't normally like to live together without alteration of the two. So thanks to your local tree hugger you pay the price for the extra refining costs. Which is one of the reasons fuel prices go up every summer not just recently.

Ethanol isn't a bad fuel really, provided you have an engine designed to run on it. A standard Gasoline engine just isn't. That's why there is an obvious performance loss. But if the engine were properly designed to run Ethanol (Not Etho-line or Gasoline.) you'd never even notice the two would run pretty much the same and of course you put Gasoline or Ethanol Etho-line in a 'true' Ethanol burning engine you'll get the same result.. A noticeable lack of performance. Its all in the air/fuel mixture, ignition temp/timing and compression. You can build an engine that works both ways, but then you're compromising the performance of one or both fuels depending on the engines configuration.

Allot of race cars use Ethanol and some use Methanol. Both are run in what is called "Top Fuel" classes. If they're using it to turn record land speeds it can't be all that bad!
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wa1knx
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« Reply #79 on: May 23, 2007, 08:26:51 PM »

I just got back from IL, where on the radio I heard they have the highest gas
prices. I saw $4.05 a gallon for premium. My cousin filled at $3.75 regular. I filled
my lil toyota tacoma 4 banger for 46 bux! I hear 6 bux coming. (again)

deano
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am forever!
WA1GFZ
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« Reply #80 on: May 23, 2007, 08:42:05 PM »

Dean,I filled my truck Sunday and XYL's GP Monday and topped off the truck Tuesday since they will raise prices in celebration of the upcoming weekend.
$120 for gas this week. We should be good for a few weeks in time for the next sticker shock.
I'm so glad the oil co.s are doing well.
Did you expect anything less from the two oil crooks.....
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Ed KB1HVS
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« Reply #81 on: May 23, 2007, 09:02:17 PM »

Well since the WX is nicer now I have taken to the use of my sons cool off road bicycle I gave him for Christmas. Smiley. I live close to my work so I just walk there anyway. XYL hasta commute 30 miles round trip in her VW Jetta with 28 mpg so in a way were lucky I guess. Still going on any sort of a long trip will prolly bite into other things we could have purchased. The economic trickle down always begins there I think.
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k4kyv
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Don
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« Reply #82 on: May 23, 2007, 09:31:48 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iyla2fKodXE
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Don, K4KYV                                       AMI#5
Licensed since 1959 and not happy to be back on AM...    Never got off AM in the first place.

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This message was typed using the DVORAK keyboard layout.
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Carl WA1KPD
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« Reply #83 on: May 23, 2007, 09:32:24 PM »

.
So glad everyone was nice and friendly after spending all that cash to hang out.
Hey Frank

I think I said "Hi Gary" to you when we spoke Friday morning at Deerfield. I was in a real fog that day so forgive me if I did so.

The Radio Tart is still angry about that error

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Carl

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Ed KB1HVS
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« Reply #84 on: May 24, 2007, 12:22:43 AM »


 more slopbucket net Grin
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The Slab Bacon
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« Reply #85 on: May 24, 2007, 08:07:19 AM »

Allot of race cars use Ethanol and some use Methanol. Both are run in what is called "Top Fuel" classes. If they're using it to turn record land speeds it can't be all that bad!

Alcohol fuels can make much more horsepower than gasoline fuels,
But.......................................

Yuou need to get a lot more of it through the engine to do it. the optimum fuel / air ratio for gasoline is around 13.5 to 1 by weight. that is 13.5 lbs of air to 1 lb of gas. For alcohol fuels it is approximately 8.5 to 1. Henceforth you need a lot more fuel (due to the lower btu/lb output) So alcohol fuels offer no savings in money unless the fuel can be had cheaply.

Like Randy said, you need much higher compression ratios, better ignition, and very accurate fuel metering systems to make it work properly. It is also very difficult to start a cold alcohol burning engine
on alcohol without priming it with something more volatile (like gasoline)

I have had my hands in alcohol burners in the past. I used to set up Hilborn fuel injectors for sprint cars, and was a crewchief for a privateer alcohol funny car years ago. We were constantly recalibrating the fuel injection to keep the engines making full power. Not to mention mixing other chemicals with the fuel as well. It was a real pain in the a$$!!
Ant there is also the humidity factor, that stuff is also hydroscopic, it will absorb moisture from the air.

Alcohol fuels (at least for now) are definately not the answer!!

                                             The Slab Bacon 
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W8EJO
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« Reply #86 on: May 24, 2007, 10:18:24 AM »

Bio-Butanol is a much better fuel than ethanol.

1) Higher energy content (110,000 Btu’s per gallon for butanol vs. 84,000 Btu per gallon for ethanol). Gasoline contains about 115,000 Btu’s per gallon.

2) Butanol can be shipped through existing fuel pipelines where ethanol must be transported via rail, barge or truck .

3)Butanol can be used as a replacement for gasoline gallon for gallon (e.g. 100%, or any other percentage). Ethanol can only be used as an additive to gasoline up to about 85% and then only after significant modifications to the engine.

Terry
W8EJO
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Terry, W8EJO

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Jim KF2SY
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« Reply #87 on: May 24, 2007, 11:07:13 AM »

Nice article that explains in plain english economic terms what the he11 is
happening with gas prices.

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Commentary/Experts/Markman/Jon_Markman.aspx?msn=1

Good 'ol Eco 101, one of my favorite courses in college.
who da' thunk that as the US and China were coming out of economic funk (or sleep) about 5 ears ago that we would no longer have $1.40 ish gas at the pumps and oil at $27/bbl in 2002.  zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
wake me up when the economic cycle shifts from boom to bust.



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WA1GFZ
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« Reply #88 on: May 24, 2007, 11:39:08 AM »

guns and butter .....  supply and demand
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n3lrx
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« Reply #89 on: May 24, 2007, 12:26:50 PM »


You need to get a lot more of it through the engine to do it. the optimum fuel / air ratio for gasoline is around 13.5 to 1 by weight. that is 13.5 lbs of air to 1 lb of gas.


Oh Yeah.. I forgot to mention that...

For example, My friends Monster Truck runs on Methanol it has a 12 Gal. fuel cell, Full that gives him enough fuel to make a few laps around the areana then it's starting to starve.

BUT.. If an engine is properly tuned and you don't expect balls to the wall power like that it could be practical. You will loose performance to gain reliability, but with performance you loose reliability.. It's just the way things go! Problem is the American consumer still wants a 70's Muscle car that gets 40MPG.. Sorry Folks, its not going to happen even with super computer controlled fuel injection.
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The Slab Bacon
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« Reply #90 on: May 24, 2007, 01:13:26 PM »

Here is one for y'all to ponder. How many of you remember the folklore tales from years ago about the magical mystery carburetor??

You know, the story goes something like: "This guy has invented a special carburetor that you can put on any car and get 50mpg but the oil companies bought him out so it will never be produced." or something to that basic effect. That story made its way through the gearhead community many times years ago.

Anyone with a little savvy knows that it was B/S as it defies one of the basic rules of physics. It takes Xamount of energy to move Xamount of mass Xamount of distance at Xamount of speed. It is as simple as that. So the thought of 5000lb road locomotives getting 50mpg is definately nothing more than a pipe dream (at least with the propulsion technology available today).

Well...... that magical carb is somewhat available as standard equipment on most of todays vehicles. Enter computer controlled multi port fuel injection!! By far more accurate fuel control than any carburetor could even hope to have. Even the very best carburetors of yesteryear were only a compromise at their best.

Its a shame, but we have the EPA and their crappy emission standards to thank for giving us back cars that run good again and give reasonable fuel mileage. Lets face it they are making some serious horsepower from today's small engines. Not to mention the hot rod potential!!  Now if High test gas was only $.35 a gallon again.........................................

                                            The Slab Bacon 
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WA1GFZ
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« Reply #91 on: May 24, 2007, 01:35:20 PM »

Frank,
A friend's Dad had a cool carb patent that he sold to the car co.s years ago. it used a wick rather than dump tubes and it got better mileage than a standard carb but as soon as fuel injection came out it was not a valid thing.
I was amazed with the injectors on the XYL's car they were brand new clean with 93K miles on them.
I do think they could get a little more dynamic range out of the fuel controls of today. I work in the same area as the guys who do jet engine fuel controls and we do EMI testing for them. You should see the color of the flame coming out of a F119 (F22 motor) or F135 (F35 motor) afterburner.
Nice light blue very hot flame. No more yellow with black soot.

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Bill, KD0HG
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« Reply #92 on: May 24, 2007, 01:41:55 PM »

WHAT?

You mean half the stuff in the JC Whitney catalog is bogus?Huh??

Seriously, we need to keep looking at diesel technology. WV turbodiesels commonly get 40-50 MPG and they haul @ss, even more with some aftermarket reprogramming. My 8800# diesel pickup regularly gets 20 MPG or better and I drive it like an animal. A 40,000# diesel semi truck will get around 5 MPG, do the math at 1/10 the weight, that's 50 MPG to haul around a 4000# car. You don't need rechargeable batteries or insane technology. Are you an eco-nut and want to run a diesel on Mazola? Pretty much just pour it in the tank and go.

Too bad the GM diesels of the 80s were junk, they were slugs and gave the technology a bad name from which it still hasn't recovered. You just don't take a GM 350 gas engine, bump the compression up to 18:1 and expect it to last...
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Todd, KA1KAQ
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« Reply #93 on: May 24, 2007, 02:02:17 PM »

Years ago I had a Mercedes 240D that I got cheap because it was a dog on hills and such. Started hard in cold weather due to wear, but it still averaged 35+ mpg and it was a heavy 4 door sedan.

Just tanked up my Ranger 4 banger during lunch for $3/gal. It was 5˘ discount day, so all the other places were $3.02-$3.05. We're usually more expensive up here, being the only land-locked N.E. state and having to truck everything in. I think the people need to stop listening to the media creating the news. They are, in my opinion, the biggest culprit in all of this. Tell people there's an emergency and it's going to get worse, and sure enough - they'll panic buy. Go fill up the tanks because CNN said it's going to be $4 next week. Prices are heading down here for the last week or two after cresting around $3.08.

Doesn't solve any real problems as Steve points out, but we don't have to add to it either. 
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The Slab Bacon
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« Reply #94 on: May 24, 2007, 02:14:00 PM »

GM's current line of small automotive diesels leave a good bit to be desired. As far as I'm concerned there is only 1 GM diesel, that is the good old 2 cycle Detroit Diesel. I just love those things. They always start, and they always run. You aint heard nothin so pretty as an old 12V71 wound up tight against the governor!! It is a sound all of its own. Being they were 2 cycle engines, they really sounded like they were screaming!! What a chunk of iron!!

                                                      The Slab Bacon
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Bill, KD0HG
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« Reply #95 on: May 24, 2007, 02:31:19 PM »

GM's current line of small automotive diesels leave a good bit to be desired. As far as I'm concerned there is only 1 GM diesel, that is the good old 2 cycle Detroit Diesel. I just love those things. They always start, and they always run. You aint heard nothin so pretty as an old 12V71 wound up tight against the governor!! It is a sound all of its own. Being they were 2 cycle engines, they really sounded like they were screaming!! What a chunk of iron!!

                                                      The Slab Bacon

Yes, and they were able to run backwards. Put a heavy trailer on the back, be in a forward gear, kill the engine on an upward grade, let the rig roll backwards and pop the clutch. The smoke out of the intake is yer first clue...

Not recommended for too long since the oil pump ran backwards.
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W3RSW
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Rick & "Roosevelt"


« Reply #96 on: May 24, 2007, 02:37:01 PM »

Wow !
A Very Hot topic indeed.
We ought to can this whole thread, refine it and sell it for the BTU's alone.  We could make a mint and solve the energy crisis, carbon exchange and global warming all in one fell swoop.

But running throughout all the discussions is probably the root cause.
Simple inflation.
The Hidden tax.  yer gov'mn't simple prints more money than it can back. Bizzness loves it that way. You'll snap up those credit cards.

Yeah, inflation; 3.5 to 14%/year. "Remember the Carter'moe."

Also Remember the old saw.
7% doubles yer money in 10 years; (-7 erodes it by Half in 10.)
10% doubles it in 7.   Minus 10 erodes it by Half in 7.

Ask yourself what your salary was in 1960.  Read all the old QST ads, Collins 75A's at $300, notwithstanding.
How many cars in the garage in 1940? 1960? now?   How many cars/household?  How big was the average house? How many miles of interstate...   and on and on.  

Even with all that, I'm glad I live now.
3's,
Rick
 
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RICK  *W3RSW*
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« Reply #97 on: May 24, 2007, 03:08:53 PM »

Of course the new EPA standards are starting to cut into Diesel fuel economy.  I bought my new crew cab pickup last year to avoid the new standards which require the addition of a DPF (diesel particulate filter) in addition to other changes.  The DPF is designed to catch all but the very smallest soot particles and it periodically "self cleans" by operating at a very high temperature to incinerate the soot particles.  Of course it reduces fuel economy due to increasing exhaust back pressure and the cleaning cycle involves either overfueling the engine or injecting fuel post combustion to increase the heat in the DPF.  Typically, the regen will occur once or more per full tank burned and the extra fuel used is a direct hit on fuel economy.

For something as aerodynamic as a brick, my pickup does OK; typically 18.6 in my mixed city/highway usage and usually around 20 mpg for straight highway runs at around 75 MPH.  My record so far is 23.7 hand calculated economy for a hamfest run upstate where I was limited to around 62 MPH on 2 lane rural roads.  I am sure a 2 wheel drive would do even better but living in a rural area with snow that was not a realistic choice.  However, the complexity of even this 2006 engine is much greater compared to the 2001 that I had; the new one has a closed PCV system, variable vane turbo, EGR, and an exhaust catalyst and a lot more plumbing under the hood to reduce emissions.  I don't mind working on my John Deere utility tractor but the pickup will definitely go to the dealer if it needs more than filter changes.

It will be interesting to see what Volkswagen comes up with on their new diesels for the U.S. market.  I will be looking for a new car shortly and I wouldn't mind picking up some MPG even if the overall cost of ownership is a wash.

Rodger WQ9E
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Bill, KD0HG
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« Reply #98 on: May 24, 2007, 03:48:20 PM »

Rodger:

You can still buy brand-new VW diesels. VW worked full speed to make as many as possible before midnight, 12/31/06 to beat the new emission requirements. Only last week I saw a new 06-1/2 4-door Jetta TDI at a sales promotion. Very nice, well appointed and much more room that I had expected.
Buying a new car is impossible right now, but it was fun kicking the tires.

My pickup is an '02 Ford 7.3, the end of the line for that engine. No catalytic, EGR or other junk hung on it. Just getting broke in now at 100K miles. Did some mild performance enhancements to it, 4" turbo-back exhaust, aftermarket intake and reprogramming.
The best highway mileage I've ever seen on it was ~23.0 driving across Wyoming with the cruise locked down at 65 MPH. At my more normal 75-80 MPH, mileage suffers, but the thing has all the aerodynamics of a brick. Overdrive would be a big help. The older 12V Dodges do even better than that, gear one up tall and they're seeing mid to upper-20s MPG.



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K3ZS
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« Reply #99 on: May 24, 2007, 04:15:12 PM »

I think as soon as practical, inexpensive, high power lithium-ion batteries are available, an electric car with an onboard generator (for long trips) would be the ultimate freedom from oil.    I think the GM Volt is something like it.    Charge the car up at night at home and have enough for most peoples commutes without using any gas, ethanol or diesel.    You see all the traffic jams, no one is moving but the engines are still burning up the fuel.  I wonder how much fuel is used in the U.S. while not moving.  The Tesla Motors car can go 200 miles on a charge.   It has no backup fuel burning engine.    If these types of cars become affordable, we can use our coal, uranium or whatever we use for electric generation to run our cars.    It's not free and there are other concerns, but it doesn't have to be based on oil.
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