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Author Topic: Gas prices are not encouraging hamfest attendance! How About Alternative Fuels?  (Read 137019 times)
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WA1GFZ
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« Reply #50 on: May 19, 2007, 09:16:07 AM »

Huz,
The simple answer we are presented every year is just raise taxes. Here in Ct.
the trend seems to be shooting for about a 25%. My new place is closer to 100%.
So where is the logic in that.
We need a friggen tea party in Boston....down with king george, taxation without representation

looks like we have had our 200 years and now we slide. 

Heck the new conservative thinking is reduce taxes and spend more just put it on the plastic.......and all they need to say is God bless America. 
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W8EJO
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« Reply #51 on: May 19, 2007, 12:04:26 PM »

Here's what I was saying about "The less you produce, the more profit you make". From a story in today's Bloomberg:

"...The profit margin, or ``crack,'' for turning crude oil into fuels has more than tripled this year. Turning three barrels of crude into two barrels of gasoline and one of heating oil provided a record high crack of $29.841 on May 11 in New York..."

This is bass-ackwards!

OK, if it's so profitable you'd think the market would be flooded with new producers all wanting to get their share of the glory just like any other market. That's how capitalism works (Read this. It explains it all:  http://www.econlib.org/library/Smith/smWN.html)

However, gov't has erected tremendous barriers to new producers. We cannot drill off the FL coast where we know there are huge known reserves(see:http://www.grainnet.com/articles/NCGA_Disappointed_With_House_Vote_to_Continue_Moratorium_on_OCS_Natural_Gas_Drilling-33986.html).

We cannot drill in ANWAR where we know there are huge known reserves.

This is Masochism (http://www.psychnet-uk.com/clinical_psychology/criteria_personality_masochistic.htm)

If all of these anti-drilling folks were around in the early 20th century there would not be one oil well in TX, OK or anywhere else in the U.S. and the entire economic boom of the 20th century would have never occurred. We'd all be walking or riding horses & scratching the ground for a living.

Terry
W8EJO
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Terry, W8EJO

Freedom and liberty - extremist ideas since 1776.
n3lrx
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« Reply #52 on: May 19, 2007, 01:02:02 PM »

Huz,
The simple answer we are presented every year is just raise taxes. Here in Ct.
the trend seems to be shooting for about a 25%. My new place is closer to 100%.
So where is the logic in that.
We need a friggen tea party in Boston....down with king george, taxation without representation

looks like we have had our 200 years and now we slide.

Heck the new conservative thinking is reduce taxes and spend more just put it on the plastic.......and all they need to say is God bless America. 

That's better than the money coming out of my pocket to feed some worthless welfare generation or to support Ted Kennedy's alcohol addiction!

Truth is the federal deficit does not exist! It's all on paper! The government does more wheelin' and dealin' then they do spending. Barters are made nearly everyday and the biased media only reports an inflated street value of the deal and not the fact that the deal was made the old fashioned way.. The Baker pays the Blacksmith with a loaf of bread for putting shoes on his horse!

The bottom line is oil prices are so high and gasoline is in such limited supply because of liberal lobbyists and a growing Socialized Govt not because "Big Oil" doesn't want to build new refineries and tap into other resources! I guarantee they would if the tree huggers and the liberal govt that supports them would stop putting barricades in front of them! We have all the oil reserves right here in the country to completely resolve all foreign oil demands and plenty of resources for alternative energy but we're not allowed to tap into it! Let's not forget that the majority of the price in todays gasoline is TAXES! Big Oil does NOT set tax rates and makes zero profit from them in fact they never see a penny! It's those fat slobs in Congress that make $500,000 a year salaries not including the under the table pay offs and campaign donations that get the most out of it! But then again, there are some people who still believe there is a 200mpg carburetor sitting on the shelf somewhere that some farmer made 60 years ago that Big Oil bought so they could prevent it from ever seeing the market.

That's like saying there is a transmitter that uses a single 12AX7 that can produce as much power as a pair of 833's but they don't want you to have it! Yeah right.. With a mentality like that it's worthless to even try to educate people these days because people will continue to believe what they want to believe and throw all forms of logic out the window!

It's just as bad on both sides of the fence these days you really can't trust either one of them no matter if they wear a D or an R badge! Both are equally greedy and equally stupid! And that doesn't say much for the voters who continue to vote them back into office year after year!

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WA1GFZ
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« Reply #53 on: May 20, 2007, 09:34:52 PM »

Truth is the federal deficit does not exist! It's all on paper!

Hey OM send me your credit card number and I will show how it works on paper.
The welfare generation has nothing on the 5T spent for nothing over the past 6 years. Where did that go? Quite conservative...now try and blame Kennedy for that.
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Bill, KD0HG
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« Reply #54 on: May 21, 2007, 02:57:26 PM »

Here's what I was saying about "The less you produce, the more profit you make". From a story in today's Bloomberg:

"...The profit margin, or ``crack,'' for turning crude oil into fuels has more than tripled this year. Turning three barrels of crude into two barrels of gasoline and one of heating oil provided a record high crack of $29.841 on May 11 in New York..."

This is bass-ackwards!

OK, if it's so profitable you'd think the market would be flooded with new producers all wanting to get their share of the glory just like any other market. That's how capitalism works Read this. It explains it all: 
Terry
W8EJO

Terry, here's an article on CNN I caught two days ago that expands on what I've been saying- It's NOT solely environmental concerns, the problem is multi-faceted.
Government energy policy isn't coordinated, more than anything, investors feel refineries are too risky of an investment.

Bill

--------------

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- It's the same story every year.

Each spring, just before the summer driving season, gasoline prices skyrocket. And every year, these four words appear in news reports nationwide as a big reason for the runup: "lack of refining capacity."

Then experts call for more refineries, politicians pledge to make the dirty behemoths easier to build, but guess what? Nothing really happens. Next year, repeat story.

So why hasn't a new refinery been built in the U.S. since 1976?

"There have been calls every year this decade for new refining capacity, yet no new projects initiated," said Geoff Sundstrom, a spokesman for AAA, the motorist organization. "Refining capacity has not kept pace with demand for gasoline."

First off, experts note, gasoline, like any commodity, is subject to big price swings. After all, in the late 1990s it was selling for less than $1 a gallon, hardly an encouraging number if you're a refinery exec looking at making a decades-long, multi-billion dollar investment.

While retail gasoline prices are currently near record highs at just below $3 a gallon, where they might be five years from now is a matter of debate.

Secondly, stringent environmental laws and effective community organizing have made it very difficult to build a new refinery in the U.S.

"Everyone is quick to say "look at these refiners, they're driving up the price,'" said Phil Flynn Flynn, senior market analyst at Alaron Trading in Chicago. "But if I wanted to build a refinery tomorrow, I couldn't do it."

And then there's the public's newfound concern over global warming and its supposed commitment to do something about it. President Bush himself has called for a 20 percent reduction in gasoline use over the next 10 years.

"What refining executive in their right fiscal mind would say, gee, we need to add refining capacity right now," said Drevna at the refiners' association.


For example, Drevna noted that expansion projects at the nation's existing refineries have had the effect of adding the equivalent of a brand new refinery every year. That increase came despite mandates for cleaner gasoline and diesel fuel, which take longer to make.

And the future looks even brighter.

"There is a tremendous amount of expansion," said Tom Kloza, chief oil analyst at the Oil Price Information Service, speaking of projects at existing facilities. "We will have a solid increase in North American refining capacity, but not for another two years."

Overseas expansion is moving even more quickly, with $300 billion slated for refining projects over the next 20 years in places like India, the Caribbean, Mexico, the Middle East, Africa, and the Asia-Pacific region.

"I think there'll be a concern that the world added too much capacity and refining will go in the dumpster again," said Kloza.
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kf6pqt
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« Reply #55 on: May 21, 2007, 03:41:20 PM »

I've been riding a motorcycle to work the past week, and I haven't yet burned through two gallons of last year's old stale gas.
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W6IEE, formerly KF6PQT
Steve - WB3HUZ
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« Reply #56 on: May 21, 2007, 03:48:48 PM »

What does any of this have to do with gas prices? The point is there is no simple answer. You guys are flailing around like a bunch of fish out of water looking for an answer that doesn't exist.

Huz,
The simple answer we are presented every year is just raise taxes. Here in Ct.
the trend seems to be shooting for about a 25%. My new place is closer to 100%.
So where is the logic in that.
We need a friggen tea party in Boston....down with king george, taxation without representation

looks like we have had our 200 years and now we slide. 

Heck the new conservative thinking is reduce taxes and spend more just put it on the plastic.......and all they need to say is God bless America. 
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KA1ZGC
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« Reply #57 on: May 21, 2007, 04:12:34 PM »

The point is there is no simple answer. You guys are flailing around like a bunch of fish out of water looking for an answer that doesn't exist.

Whoops, did I wander into the Inquirer by accident?

(Sorry, I just couldn't hold out any longer).

--Thom
Kilovolts Alter One Zorched Gate Crasher
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Bill, KD0HG
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« Reply #58 on: May 21, 2007, 04:15:25 PM »

What does any of this have to do with gas prices? The point is there is no simple answer. You guys are flailing around like a bunch of fish out of water looking for an answer that doesn't exist.


Hmmm...Refined Cod liver oil.

Yo, huzMan, if there was a simple answer, this wouldn't be a very fun discussion, would it?

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WA1GFZ
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« Reply #59 on: May 21, 2007, 08:02:05 PM »

Why are we so dead set to send our cash to the saudi royal crooks when we have plenty of our own oil. Got a thing about my daughter walking around in a tent.
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WA1GFZ
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« Reply #60 on: May 22, 2007, 10:22:46 AM »

Well, to celebrate Memorial Day the local gas station is raising the price of gas about 2 cents a day. How American
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Ed KB1HVS
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« Reply #61 on: May 22, 2007, 02:04:31 PM »

Why are we so dead set to send our cash to the saudi royal crooks when we have plenty of our own oil. Got a thing about my daughter walking around in a tent.
Because the Saudi Royal Crooks are our friends and we love them Angry
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KB1HVS. Your Hi Value Station
W1UJR
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« Reply #62 on: May 22, 2007, 02:12:36 PM »

Just buy the 60mpg Mercedes Smart Car.  Grin

http://www.smartusa.com/




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WA1GFZ
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« Reply #63 on: May 22, 2007, 03:43:10 PM »

Bruce,
I bet I could run my '78 firebird 400 plus .03 on av gas for ten years and come out cheaper.
My buddy in L.A. says prices down to 3.29 from 3.35 this week.
Refinery just down the road in long beach
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W1UJR
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« Reply #64 on: May 22, 2007, 04:43:55 PM »

Bruce,
I bet I could run my '78 firebird 400 plus .03 on av gas for ten years and come out cheaper.
My buddy in L.A. says prices down to 3.29 from 3.35 this week.
Refinery just down the road in long beach


You might be right Frank.
The orignal smartCar concept was supposed to be very affordable, and a reasonable means of urban transport.
I'm starting to think that they might try to cash in on the "Eco-Green" mania and ask big bucks like Toyota does with the Primus.
Or take the Mini Copper approach and cash in on the "cute" factor.

Back in 2005, the pricing was noted as:
"Pricing should run between $12,000 for the cheapest model, and just over $20,000 for a convertible with all the available extras, Heidemann says. That's a markup of a few thousand dollars over the price in Europe, where Heidemann has been buying them from dealers."

Either way the car is at least 1, if not 2 years behind its promised introduction.
I have to think the Damlier (Mercedes) Chrysler split is not going to do this project any favors.

I'll keep my 18.3 mpg Volvo until things clear up, it hauls a good number more boatanchors than does the smartCar.  Grin

Talk to you tonight on the GHN.



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WA3VJB
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« Reply #65 on: May 22, 2007, 07:54:22 PM »

Quote
Got a thing about my daughter walking around in a tent.
Frank maybe she should shop in a more upscale store?


* notents.jpg (181.33 KB, 335x754 - viewed 648 times.)
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Ed KB1HVS
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« Reply #66 on: May 23, 2007, 12:28:37 AM »

Just buy the 60mpg Mercedes Smart Car.  Grin





 Smart for  Mercedes. Pay the same price for half the car  Wink
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KB1HVS. Your Hi Value Station
K6JEK
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RF in the shack


« Reply #67 on: May 23, 2007, 12:56:04 PM »

I drive my wife's Prius as often as she'll let me.   It gets 48 in stop and go and 52 on the highway.    That's about 2X the highway mileage and maybe 3X the around town mileage of my twin-turbo fire breather which now remains parked most of the time.    It really gets those numbers too.   Put in a tank of gas, do all kinds of driving, check the mileage after 400 miles -- 48.   Not 48 EPA or saw-the-number-once 48.   It carries more stuff than the fire breather too.

In addition to keeping more money in our pockets it puts less money in the pockets of the sheiks. What's not to like?

Jon

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WA1GFZ
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« Reply #68 on: May 23, 2007, 01:00:00 PM »

Jon,
what was the cost though?
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The Slab Bacon
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« Reply #69 on: May 23, 2007, 02:19:34 PM »

Bruce,
I bet I could run my '78 firebird 400 plus .03 on av gas for ten years and come out cheaper.
My buddy in L.A. says prices down to 3.29 from 3.35 this week.
Refinery just down the road in long beach

Cost per mile is the whole thing!! If it cost you $100k for a car that gets 60MPG and doesnt have enuff ass to pull an ant off of an apple core, what have you accomplished??

I would be better off driving my 1970 440+6 super bee for daily transportation again. (and it even gets better than 18MPG on the highway if I keep my foot out of it!!)

Reasonable mileage, and a vehicle that suits your needs is the real deal. High mileage with no power or comfort sucks. Tiresmoking power and luxury comfort (although desireable) is not practical either. The real deal is a working compromise between the 2 THAT FILLS YOUR NEEDS.

I dont want to give any more of my hard earned money to the oil companies that I have to, but I also refuse to drive an uncomfortable
pregnant roller skate either. But I really do miss the days of the "tail finned road locomotives".

Just think about what vehicle you buy, and buy one that fits your needs (not someone elses ego) and you cant go wrong!!

                                                     The Slab bacon
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WA1GFZ
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« Reply #70 on: May 23, 2007, 02:44:43 PM »

I have to haul ass so drive a truck. I get close to 20 MPG if I keep my foot out of it  5.3 chevy V8. I used to do 1 mpg better before they added corn smash.
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The Slab Bacon
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« Reply #71 on: May 23, 2007, 03:02:07 PM »

I have to haul ass so drive a truck. I get close to 20 MPG if I keep my foot out of it  5.3 chevy V8. I used to do 1 mpg better before they added corn smash.

Ohhh!!! You mean the "summer blend!! The special summer reformulation that is "Oxygenated" to reduce hot day emissions (and the size of your wallet!!) I hate that crappy summer stuff. I see a noticable drop in mileage (and performance) in my little ranger pickup. I average 25 mpg with about 1/2 highway 1/2 stop and go and a goodly helping traffic gridlock. I usually see around 27 mpg in the colder months. Yea I also see a noticable difference here as well.

Higher prices / less mileage, whats not to like?? At least for the oil tycoons!!
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K6JEK
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RF in the shack


« Reply #72 on: May 23, 2007, 03:04:37 PM »

Jon,
what was the cost though?
She bought it when you had to get in line -- no discounts.   I think the basic car was around $22K.   She added some extras that brought to about $25.    Then there was a $3000 tax credit that brought it back to $22.  Then there was tax and license that brought it back to $25.   Something like that.

Jon

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AF9J
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« Reply #73 on: May 23, 2007, 03:52:05 PM »

Yeah, you've gotta love the reformulated gas/garbage.  I'm stuck with it here in the Milwaukee metro area.  And the worst part about it, is that the 4 surrounding counties have to use it too!  Ugh!  That's why so many of us around here have no use for the "ethanol is our fuel solution" agenda being pushed.  The mileage is about 80% of what I used to get with real gas in my hometown about 80 miles to the north.  Oh, but it will cut down on air  pollution.  Yeah, right!  You burn more fuel, and as a result any pollution savings is wasted.  As it is, much of the Ozone pollution that this area has, is due to the fact that Milwaukee's proximity to Lake Michigan gives it thermal inversions, ala Los Angeles.  So, much of our air pollution, is junk that blows up with the wind, from Chicago, and Gary, Indiana.

Here's another good one - oftentimes if people who live here have to make a trip outside of Milwaukee, and its surrounding counties, they fill up on real gas (for the better gas mileage), before they get back into the reformulated gas area.  Our esteemed governor, made a push to mandate reformulated gas, on the rest of the state (after all the ethanol lobby wanted to help increase business for the corn growers and ethanol porducers).  Luckily, that got nixed.  But the EPA has been threatening to mandate reformulated gas on all of the counties that are along the shore of Lake Michigan (including my home county of Manitowoc, which has a population of maybe 60-70,000 people), due to their ozone pollution levels not meeting federal standards.  Some of these counties (like Door County), don't even have 30,000 people in them.  What a crock, make them pay for the same Gary, and Chicago pollution problem, Milwaukee County, and its surrounding  counties, have to pay for.

Nope, I have no use (from personal experience) for the "benefits" of ethanol.  Here's some more food for thought.  Burning ethanol, creates different pollution problems.  One of the combusion products, is aldehydes (formaldehyde belongs to this class of chemical compunds).   Please forgive my rant.  I'm just tired of the ethanol hype.

73,
Ellen - AF9J
I have to haul ass so drive a truck. I get close to 20 MPG if I keep my foot out of it  5.3 chevy V8. I used to do 1 mpg better before they added corn smash.

Ohhh!!! You mean the "summer blend!! The special summer reformulation that is "Oxygenated" to reduce hot day emissions (and the size of your wallet!!) I hate that crappy summer stuff. I see a noticable drop in mileage (and performance) in my little ranger pickup. I average 25 mpg with about 1/2 highway 1/2 stop and go and a goodly helping traffic gridlock. I usually see around 27 mpg in the colder months. Yea I also see a noticable difference here as well.

Higher prices / less mileage, whats not to like?? At least for the oil tycoons!!
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W1RKW
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« Reply #74 on: May 23, 2007, 04:29:55 PM »

I pulled my little sports car out from winter storage a week ago.  It had a full tank of gas from the winter.  I've been driving it for a couple of days now.  Typically when the temp is around 75 degrees it runs like crap because of its high compression ratio.  What I noticed since I've been driving it that it doesn't run crappy in the nice warm weather we've been having.  I'm sure once I start running the new formulation because I'm just about out of the winter mix it will run like garbage again.

The other thing that concerns me is this push to conserve. I don't believe it will make the price of gasoline go down, maybe only temporarily.  With governments taxing fuel the way they do and when they see their proceeds go down they'll raise the taxes on a gallon fuel to compensate for their losses.  You're damned if you conserve and you're damned if you don't.
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Bob
W1RKW
Home of GORT. A buddy of mine named the 813 rig GORT.
His fear was when I turned it on for the first time life on earth would come to a stand still.
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