The AM Forum

This may sound stupid, but I am having a real problem finding a *good* pair of headphones !  The pair I'm using now is no longer made.

Oh, Good means it will reproduce everything my transmitter can transmit (audio wise), and that my ears can hear.  And, with a flat response.  I want to be able to hear sub sonic breath pops, door closing thuds, people walking in the other part of the house, far off thunder.  The mic goes down to single cycles per second...so does the transmitter... the ear goes down to at least 15... why can't the headphones?  Ok, it's weird - maybe an obsession, but hear me out  :P

Currently, I am using an old Yamaha RH3, Note: Not the RH3-C, which is pretty bad.  Ok, back to the good old RH3s.  The RH3 has a clean, fairly flat response down to 15Hz.... yes, 15Hz.

Ok, lots of phones *claim* response down to 16, 15, 10, 6 Hz..  Well, it's bull (you know what).  The published response of the RH3 is 20-20,000Hz.  The RH3 really does it -and better.  At 15Hz it's right in there - still clean, and plenty of output.

I've tried LOTS of headphones.  My latest test was a set of Sennheiser HD485 phones.  Look good on paper.  Open phones (the sealed/closed designs really roll off), good specs, headphone.com says the freq. response is good.  Nope.  Not a chance.  Big peak at around 60Hz... rolls off pretty fast below that.  At 15Hz there was much more 30Hz energy than 15Hz energy, indicating distortion.  The impedance had a big peak at around 80Hz, then starts to fall off.  By the way, the RH3s have a flat impedance curve down to 15Hz.  I can't measure anything lower than that - my sig generator only goes to 15 :-)

I've tried Sony phones, I've tried Koss, I've tried $500 Sennheisers.  So far, everything I've tried falls apart below about 30Hz.. Some get to 20, but I can't find anything (so far), that makes it cleanly and flatly down to 15 or below (except the RH3s).

I found the RH3s by going into a high end music store, and asking the fellow there if I could try all the headphones. I told him money was no object (this was not entirely true, but I wanted to be able to try ALL of the phones available).  So, armed with my radio shack condenser mic and a portable amplifier, I started testing headphones... tried them all... stopped at the RH3.  It was the only one that would reproduce all of that low stuff.  At $49.00 (at the time, 10 years ago), it was a good buy !

Any suggestions (short of "get a life")  :o  ??   I can't find any new old stock of the RH3 phones.  If they say it's the RH3, it's really the RH3C, and that one has hardly any low end at all !  So a replacement must be found..

Talk later and Regards,

Steve

Go to the in-ear monitors with ambient noise attenuator cushioning which keeps the transducers in place.

The placement guarantees good coupling to your ear bones.

AND you can ignore calls to go do your chores, the baby crying, etc.

    Many years ago (maybe '70), I had a pair of Koss Pro4AA's with the liquid filled ear cusions. I can't hear down to 15cps but could hear to 24cps and I really enjoyed them. A college roommate lifted them from me. Some decades later I saw the same Koss Pro4AA model for sale and tried them. You guessed it...JUNK. The current version has cheapo ear cusions and the drivers are not transparent and clean like they used to be. As for the bass, very muddy mid bass and no reall deep bass. I am in the process of building a folded horn loudspeaker for my NC 2-40D. No more headphones as I live in the country and it's only me and the cat.

I've heard Japan has a tin ear ever since we nuked them and can't hear low end so that is why it all sounds like crap.

Hi Steve:

I like the AKG K240 headphones. The last pair I got was for $5.00 at the Framingham flea. Open ear.

Looks like they also make a closed ear headphones..the K271 ($299.00).

I have a pair of Stax electrostatics that have amazing clarity, but do not reproduce very loud levels. Supoer clean and you need a power amp to drive them as they need lotsa voltage.

73
Dan
W1DAN

Steve can you really hear below 30 Cy?  Down there I just feel it when the kidz in cars drive by.  Lots of pressure on the body.

Hi Jim,

Yeah, just ran the test last night on the Sennheisers.  Swept them down to 15Hz... was hearing mostly 30Hz at that point.  Plugged in the RH3 phones - could once again hear the correct tone (15Hz).  Swept the RH3 back up to 60 - nice and smooth all the way.  It really is noticable when listning on the air, also !  I ran some tests on my 15 year old and my wife.  My wife could hear well, down to about 18Hz.  My son could year down to a bit above 20.  I can hear to 15.   :)

Regards,

Steve

You've probably tried these, but the Sony MDR-V6 is pretty much the standard for sound mixers and location recorders in the motion picture industry, and are quite popular with the radio industry as well. Nice and comfy to wear (esp. with velour Beyer pads) if your job requires the wearing of a headset for hours at a time. Although they are not "research laboratory quality", I find they fit the bill for general purpose headphones quite nicely.

Grado Reference Series.

Headphone of choice at this point in time has been the Sony MDR7506 Stereo Headphones.


Standard Features

    * Cable Length: 9.8 ft
    * Driver Unit Size: 40
    * Frequency Response: 10-20,000 Hz
    * Impedance: 24 ohms
    * Magnet Type: Neodymium
    * Plug Type: Gold
    * Sensitivity: 104
    * Type: Dynamic, closed
    * Weight: 7.8


I have been using these headphones for years.  I have three in the studio right now. I find them extremely clean on the low side and have excellent high frequency reproduction.

I think you can get them  for around $100.00. 

They are very comfortable to wear as I always use headphones here while transmitting.

Wow, I just tried a pair of those - JUST - within the past hour.  They are very good, but the low end is nothing like the RH3 (sorry  :-[. )

What I did was to bring the RH3, and my audio oscillator equipped with a plug and asked if I could "try out" headphones in the store.  I got the floor manager - he was very interested !! So, we tried headphones...   I have a pair of Bose phones here on trial.  They were VERY good - MAYBE better than the RH3.  Next stop is Radio Shack - they have Koss phones there.

The quest is ON !!!  I will report back.

The Sonys were good, but the low end rolled off fairly steeply below about 35Hz.  I think this is very typical for closed headphones.  The Bose phones I got have a "port" - I guess they are called "semi-closed".  Very interesting - kind of like the old Koss PRO4-A, but better.  I owned some PRO4-A phones and they strapped in the bass below 30Hz.

Talk later !!!

Regards,

Steve

keep me posted Steve as to your next recommended head set so I can use them with your mod monitor .
Thanks,
Billr 

Yes, and you STILL won't believe how good you sound in it, eh Bill?  ;D

watch what you get at Radio Shack that's made by Koss. it's a different line made just for the Shack, as i found out from Koss. i fell for this a couple years ago when i bought Koss Pro4AA's there. they sounded good enough, but the wiring between between the cans failed in a week. rewired them, and they have been Ok for two years. that is until recently the low frequency response just died below 100 HZ. they sound strangely distorted now too. never again! found a 25$ pair of Sony cans at the local Border's that are quite good. it's the Sony MDR-XD100. good sound on the cheap. by the way does anybody know why all these phones are ALL wierd impedences that don't match any know equipment? it's a huge pain iin the rear for me. 

Oh Steve!

Ok - more on my tests !!

I have tried a number of headphones recently.  Probably 10 different types of all sizes, shapes and prices.  So far, nothing is working out...

The absolute best headphone I've used so far is the Bose Tri-Port OE (On Ear).  These little headphones are wonderous !! The best low end of any of them, so far. ... Incredible - flat down to lower than I can hear (15Hz).  Powerful and clean... nice smooth high end, too.

Unfortunately, the Tri-Port (or any sealed headphone) doesn't work very well in an application where one is speaking and listening.

When using any type of sealed headphone, I have noticed that there is an effect similar to putting your hands over your ears.  You can
hear yourself very well in the midrange when speaking.  It is very distracting (at least to me).  The effect causes a big mid-bass peak when listening to one's self in the phones while talking..  The open air phones don't do this...

So, I've modified my quest to open air phones only.  I tried another pair of Sennheisers today.  They were almost acceptable, but still not nearly as good as the RH3 Yamahas (no longer made - beware of the RH3C - it's not the same product!!).  So, I'm still looking (and listening).

I feel like the man with the lantern  ;)

Regards,

Steve

"I have noticed that there is an effect similar to putting your hands over your ears.  You can
hear yourself very well in the midrange when speaking"

Have you tried mixing some of your transmitter audio  ( or an off-the-air sample) back into your cans?  maybee this'll help....   klc

So... Steve. What have you found? What is the best open ear headphone set so far? Did you replace the old Yamahas. I need a set as well so your input is important

Mike

Mine are Yamaha YH-2.  I bought them about 25 years ago for about $50.  They are comfortable enough that I can wear them for hours almost without being aware that I have them on.  Some of the plastic is deteriorating, but they still work well.

The bass is not bad, but still nothing to write home about.  Otherwise they sound clean and transparent.  They are the only headphones I have ever owned that didn't feel like a clamp screwed down on my head over my ears.

Steve

http://www.gradolabs.com

Might be worth discussing your requirements with their engineering department - at least you may glean some worthwhile information. Think you hit the nail on the head in your original post - flat impedance extending down low.

Would like to hear your results.

Jay W1VD

Hi Jay, good suggestion !

Here is my letter to Grado - I'll let you know !
Hi !

I, and a number of my colleagues are in need of headphones with an extended low frequency response (at least to 15hZ) and that we can wear while speaking into a microphone - so they MUST be of an open design to prevent the "hands over your ears" echo/resonance effect one gets while taking.

What I am about to say may sound strange, but I have a perfectly good pair of headphones that meets the requirements, however they are no longer available.  These are $49.00 headphones from Yamaha, the RH3 (****NOT THE RH3-C, which is a different product ****).  I need a replacement for these relatively inexpensive headphones, and I have found NOTHING that works.  A number of my colleagues are in the same boat.

The problem is a lack of DEEP low end response, and also a mid-bass peak which seems to be present is all the (open back) phones I've tried.

The application is in-studio, listening to one's self while talking.  The equipment in use has exceptional frequency response - flat from 10 to 20kHz, and we need to be able to hear all of it.  The purpose is not to remove the extreme low end, but to be able to hear it.  The microphones have response to the single digits.  Things like people waking across a floor, far away helicopters, trucks going past the building (very low frequency) and breath / speaking artifacts need to be able to be heard correctly.

I have tried at least 10 different headphones, in all price ranges and styles from all the top manufacturers.  I have only tried one Grado, and the response of that particular set was not remarkable below 30hZ.  Unfortunately, I do not remember the model number.  It was at a music store in Nashua, NH.

My in-store testing consists of an audio oscillator / amplifier.  I sweep down to 10hZ - listening for peaks in the response or roll off.  Of course, I bring the  "reference" headphones (the RH3s) with me to show what I'm looking for.

Oh, I *HAVE* found some **closed** headphones that would work just fine.  The Bose TriPort OE is very good to 10hZ, and the highs are superb.  Unfortunately, this is a closed design and therefore unusable.

Someone recommended I write to you folks, as you are experts and may have a solution / suggestion.  I would think I could replace $49.00 headphones with something as good or better :-)

Let me know what you think or any of your products would be suitable.

Talk later and Regards,

Steve


 

Steve,


I guess you truly must be a baby "boomer"...

I heard that a 30 cycle note can make you lose control of your bowels and vaaavooom (true or false?)
Fred
Down hill we go on this thread. I'm like the SSBer who sets up a QSO 3 kc from an AM QSO.......hi

What exactly is the difference between open and closed headphones?

I am aware of 3 types.

(1) The old fashioned "head clamps", where the hard bakelite earpieces press down on both ears.  Wearing those things for more than a few minutes is pure torture.

(2)  The type with ear pads that surround the ear, so that the pressure is on the skull bones, but not the ears.  They are usually padded with foam or other soft material.  The pads form an air seal around the ears to cut out outside noise.  My Yamaha phones are of this variety.

(3)  The type like what comes with a Walkman or other partable audio device.  The ear pieces clamp directly on the ear, but the phones are very lightweight and the pressure not great enough to cause discomfort.  The ear pieces are made of something like foam rubber that is porous enough to allow air to flow freely.  The phones make no seal with the ear, so it is like listening with a small speaker near, but not pressed against the ear, and outside noises are clearly audible.

Don, the open ear/air type cans have holes through the ear cups to allow sound and air from the room in. In some cases the manufactures call it ventilation for long periods of use. Others call them sound ports for studio awareness.

Right !!

Any headphone that keeps out background noise (unless it is noise cancelling) is closed.  The closed headphones cause the old "hands over the ears" problem - with the echo in the head effect.

The open phones do not do this.  The RH3s are actually "semi-open", but open enough to not cause the echo in the head effect.

Haven't heard anything from Grado yet ....

Regards,

Steve

A TV show on Discovery channel named "MYTHBUSTERS" disspelled the "brown note" theory that a loud sub audible tone will do that. One of the hosts sat in front of very large woofers that produced a SPL of 140 Db at varying tones all the way to 2Hz. No loss of control.

Just a side note about closed headphones and voice 'sidetone'.

I used to work on digital comm radios that had about 10 to 15 milliseconds of audio throughput delay.  You could really hear an echo as you put on the headphones - but with good closed headphones, you did not notice the echo once the cups were sealed around your ears.  You pretty much couldn't tell that there was even a delay.

This may become an issue if people start using DSP speech processing.

  Bacon, WA3WDR

Steve
I'm very happy with my KOSS Pro 4AA. I do not need extended range for Ham use but these are great for my recording studio where the Flintstone thing happens. Shadio Rack was selling this brand. They are nice to wear for a couple of hours and shut out external noise very well. They can be driven very loud using my Mackie board.
Fred

steve,
   are those the ones I remember listening to while at your shack years ago?
if so I remember them having great audio & low end. I just did a search for
rh3 headphone, and got a bunch of hits for yamaha. you may be able to find
a new pair yet

deano

Yes,  you get a lot of hits on Google....
BUT, most, if not close to ALL of the adverts for "RH3" are actually for the "RH3C".

It isn't until you read the fine print, or in some cases, read the label on the package if there is a picture, that you realize it's the "c" model......

There may still be some RH3 out there, but it looks like the NOS is drying up.

Yeah, I found thousands of hits for the RH3, but it turns out that they are ALL the RH3C.  Many sites have pictures of the OLDER RH3, but when you get them in the mail, it's the RH3C  :(

Oh well !  Still have not found anything.  Grado could only recommend one pair of headphones, and that pair cost about $1000.00, so obviously, that pair is OUT !

Talk later and Regards,

Steve

Have you checked the Shady O Rack Optimus headphones?  33-1122 stock number.  They've got butt-kicking bass, but then your ears may judge them differently.  They run about $35, IIRC.

Scott Todd

I am very happy with my Sony MDR777LP Headphones.  I have had them for about a month now.  I used them to dial in my audio gear for the Valiant.

Richard

Stev,

These look classic - I think this is what they used to test my hearing in 3rd grade.


This second setup is for listening even more carefully for Steve's actual voice, bypassing the radio circuit completely. Now if I can just get it aimed at Groton... 

Mike WU2D