The AM Forum

I sent a message to my ARRL district director today (yes I am a member) asking that the ARRL not issue a band plan for the new phone frequencies.  His response was in agreement, to let the band settle before trying to establish anything.

He did say his box is overflowing with messages from CW and digital people.  Humm! wonder what they are saying?

I am lucky that the district director here has some common sense about most of what we like on this board.  But, whatever response you receive, I urge you to let your director know how you feel.  I sent the same message to that robot the ARRL HQ has set up, so maybe someone will hear.

I know on the CW reflector they are pissing and moaning about all the CW spectrum the Generals lost.  But Generals gained 50 kc/s of phone spectrum, and 3500-3600 is still plenty considering the amount of CW activity these days.  I suspect mosts Generals were glad to make the trade.

I do think the FCC went a  little overboard with the Extra class only portion.

Still not perfectly clear if the Generals will lose non-voice privileges on 3600-3700.

Based on the updated band chart it would seem so:
http://www.arrl.org/announce/regulatory/wt04-140/Hambands3_color.pdf

Excellent Jim, that’s the way to do it. Let the ARRL e-mail robot and your Director know your feelings on the phone band expansion. I also did the same thing.

By the way, you might let your Director and/or Vice-Director know about the ARRL Forum here at amfone.net. This is probably one of the few places where there is a vast collection of discussions about the ARRL’s past, current, and pending actions and activities all collected under one roof. Obviously, it would be great for them to become members, but, given their Director/Vice-Director position, I would understand their reluctance to do so.

So....!

We do need to reach a consensus on an least a tenative AM calling frequency down under.

Is 3725 OK for now?

Why not continue to use 3825, or is there some conflicting use in the evening I don't know about?

Someone mentioned that there's a pretty regular Canadian group that uses 3725.?
Not that I would avoid using it for regular 'ol conversation etc.

But I wouldn't want to announce it as a new calling freq, and make it appear we're "moving in on their turf..."

It would be nice to be able to engage in conversation with them, and not make new enemies.....



Is 3825 a calling freq for AM?   wasn't aware of that....(hey, there's a lot I'm not aware of..... ;D)


In any case, a calling frequency, should definately be in the "General Portion"...IMHO

The problem that exists with "calling frequencies" is that they are very seldom used in the intended manner, and end up being the place where folks plunk down, and buzzard on...........but maybe that's beside the point........

That's exactly what I have in mind..
Visiting with the VEs and saying, "HI"
Seeing if 3725 would cooperatively work or if another
calling freq neds to be considered.

Whateve happens, everyone is still gonna congregate near 3885, so there won't ever be much US AM activity on 3725.

As you say Bill, most will still probably hang around 3885. We have late afternoon activity around 3825 and we can go down to the VE area of the band and make new AM friends.

This might be easier and less disruptive than trying to lay claim to another “AM Calling Frequency”. Actually, one would have to ask, why do you need more than one AM calling frequency per band. Calling frequency not be confused with a QSO frequency.

I think 3685 would be a great landing place...I would love to get down to the bottom with a clear freq.

Yes yes no guarentees?
But what the Hell.

Brent W1IA

Speaking of the new frequencies, is anyone else monitoring the Federal Register to see when the RO is published?

I haven't seen anything yet, but I may miss it.

I haven't seen anything there yet either.

I feel the same way, Pete.
As an active, interested member of the hobby I really wouldn't want to be seen associating with the people In Newington, so I don't subscribe.

Jim,
It's nice that you communicated with the group in Newington, but don't count on their having much influence or determination to take much of a chance on any sort of proposal to address the expanded phone bands.

They had two years to develop some sort of plan to accompany their discredited "bandwidth" propoosal, and for them to now elicit comments within a few weeks probably explains why they also said they wouldn't be answering people.

But thanks for playing.

Yea, the ARRL sucks. I hate it. They are idiots. You can't talk to them. Even if if you could, I wouldn't, cause they suck. QST sucks too. I wouldn't line the bottom of my bird's cage with it (if I had one). They're all evil. The world is soon going to end.

Have a nice day.

An organization is nothing more or less than the individuals that make up the organization.  A lot of the slipperyness/tricks and other apparent philosophies and changes by the ARRL we dislike may be coming from Dave Sumner, in my opinion.  He's been in there a long, long, long, long, long time; too long.   No one should ever be the head of an organization for a very long time.

Perhaps its time to try to get a regime change.  I don't know when the next time Dave comes up for a vote or whatever his "renewal process" is, but let's consider an orchestrated plan to contact our ARRL section people , headquarters and board members for non-renewal of Dave.  Non-ARRL hams can give feedback.  ARRL members can also threaten to drop their membership.

Not everything the league does is bad.  In my opinion it ain't worthwhile killing the organization, just get a different and better leader in power.

What say?

(http://amfone.net/Amforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8776.0;id=1317)


Thanks Pete. We are going to get some newspaper, not QST, to line the bottom of the cage. That will show the mean old ARRL. I'm taking my ball and going home too. But only after the world ends.

Problem is Paul, the FCC didn't adopt the ARRL plan. How could they possibly plan for a decision they didn't expect?
While I agree with the FCC's logic more than the league's logic (voice down to 3600 KHz vs. 3725 KHz), how could they have possibly predicted what would've happened?

Don't bring facts and reason into this Mike. How can we hate on the ARRL if you do?

The phone band expansion actually happened two years ago. It's just taken the FCC two years to do the R&O.

"...the so-called "Omnibus" Amateur Radio proceeding, WT Docket 04-140. The 2004 Wireless Telecommunications Bureau (WTB) proceeding, one of two still awaiting FCC release, consolidated a dozen rule making petitions addressing various Part 97 rule changes -- including ARRL's Novice refarming proposal. In its Notice of Proposed Rule Making and Order (NPRM&O), the Commission proposed to go along with the League's refarming concept and most other recommendations. ARRL President Joel Harrison, W5ZN, says the long-overdue Report and Order seems to be stalled for no reason."

Pete can you explain this to us ?

God Forbid. Someone just might associate them with AMers.Would they ever be forgiven?  Joe

Aye.
Pete will have a tough time explaining his apology for the volunteer pack leaders at his group in Newington, who couldn't possibly show their support for other active, interested hams in the hobby.

Yea, that vintage AM station at W1AW must be killing them. We know they never do anything for AM. It's in their DNA to hate AM.

At least dress it up a little Steve -- helps you make your point  --

(http://www.we.tv/images/header/logo_home.gif)

Can you imagine what would happen if some senior ARRL member/official posted on this board using his real name???

FLAME ON!!!

I used to get email from a reflector that had Ed Hare as a member.  Ed is a great guy, who actually works hard to help out Ham Radio in general, he is/was the RFI Guru,  and he would Frequently get Flamed just because he was an ARRL guy. He eventually stopped posting, which was damed shame as that guy knows his stuff.

Rarely are there any useful discussions about the ARRL, it devovles into a bash fest... Almost as bad as the  Code Wars on QRZ...  ::)

Like my Ol' Dad used to say,  If you don't want to DO anything about it, quit yer B!tchen!!!

And just for the record, No I'm not a Member...  I don't even play one on TV....
 

Very well put ED.


Yes it is ashame that when someone voices thier opion here that someone doesn't like then it becomes ok to flame a person away from the site . And then when a person crosses the line in regard to rules and regs they cry foul if any action is taken . I have people I have known for years that said they were freinds that refuse to even say hi to me at flea markets because of this crap. Others just say they are not going to post anymore, you know like a little 6 year old that has been caught taking candy or something - - geeez.

Ed Hare was beat on for months by a select few. When those "special few" were told to stop it they left the site and decided they were going to punish ( HA ) the AM communtiy by not participating on this site. It's funny because they still check the site out almost daily. It shows you the type of people they really are. It's not hard to know whom I am talking about because these people are still badmouthing the site over their "mis-treatment".

It's funny but history shows those that are the most verbal have offered very little to offer our hobby or mode that is constructive and positive.

Because of this select group of selfish individuals we have lost a good supporter and of course any good communication here on the site with anyone from the ARRL.



G

I am not certain, but I suspect Ed Hair does not participate becasue many of the people you speak about took his comments as "official", or took offense at his comments and contacted his bosses.  This can cause consternation within any orgnization and they may not have told him to quit, but he didn't want the hassel of explaining what he said everytime.

You might be right Jim.  I don't know.

What I do know is we did have people from  the ARRL on this site and ran them off which I take personnally. I feel we failed our main goal here on AMfone. It should have never gotten that far but it did. We have corrected things since that time and it would not happen again.

But now that we have run them off the site we criticise that they are not here commenting. We can't have it both ways.

Any post in this ARRL forum ends up the same way. The ARRL haters trash the threads with their opions instead of addressing the issues. Many will not post in here because of that. That is not in our best interest. Just like how this thread started as a BAndplan issues and turned into a I hate the ARRL thread - - Pathetic.

 It is harder to correct the situation than to sit on ones ass and complain about it. That is all I ever see in these threads - words no action.

I firmly beleive that if the ARRL sent 1 million dollars to each and every ham in the US the same critics would complain that the money was distributed in 10 dollar bills.

It is sad.

What is that saying, "you can have an opinion as long as it agrees with mine" ;)

We have a term in NY for that - - BS

Anyway I see no end to this thread that would actually benefit anyone or our hobby so I am moving on . I apologise for my contribution to derailing this thread.

Thanks

G

Suprisingly enough...
They are even now trying to help all those CW nets (NTS mostly) move down into the 3500-3600kc portion.

Yep, I'm sure there will be some moaning......

I recieved an email today with the proposed freq changes....
That's a lot of nets to squeeze in 100kc!....
But considering the CW filtering, and the bandwidth, I bet they'll manage......

It will all be very interesting indeed...............

Mr. Sumner’s brief bio:
“Active from the first as an ARRL volunteer, he joined the Headquarters staff in 1968 for the summer, became a part of the permanent staff in 1972, and was named Assistant General Manager four years later. He was named Secretary and General Manager in 1982, with a change in title to Executive Vice President in 1985 and the additional title of Chief Executive Officer in 2001”

If you would like to read his entire bio, it’s here:
http://www.remote.arrl.org/pio/bios/officials/k1zz.html

Considering 1982 as his start as General Manager, he’s been in the position 24 years.

Note:
ARRL Articles of Association:
Article 8:
The officers of the Corporation shall be a President, a First Vice President, an Executive Vice President, a Chief Financial Officer, an International Affairs Vice President, not more than one additional Vice President, a Secretary and a Treasurer, who shall be elected by a majority of the Directors at the Annual Meeting on even numbered years. The Executive Vice President and Chief Financial Officer shall be compensated at rates agreeable to them and the Board of Directors.

Mr. Sumner was re-elected in January 2006.

Also note, from the By-Laws:
15. The President, the Vice Presidents, and the Treasurer shall possess all of the rights and duties of directors save the right to vote and the right to participate in the call of a special meeting of the Board, as referred to in Article 4 of the Articles of Association, provided, however, that the President shall be required to cast a vote on any matter as to which a tie is found to exist.

Notation: “all of the rights and duties of directors save the right to vote”

The Directors have all the voting privileges with the President casting a deciding vote in event of a tie. The Directors decide through their discussion and voting processes whether proposals, changes to strategies, nominations, other actions relevant to amateur radio, etc. move forward, get tabled, require further investigation, etc. I guess in a simple phrase, the Chief Executive Officer “runs the business” of the ARRL with a number of sub-ordinates below him to make that all happen.

So, I guess I’m somewhat curious as to your phrase “lot of the slipperyness/tricks and other apparent philosophies and changes” and what can you provide to us to justify your statement that Mr. Sumner is somehow responsible for all this. As you said, it’s your opinion, but it might be interesting to share your thoughts. Although there have been a number of actions taken and passed by the board over the last 24 years (using the same time Mr. Sumner has been in the CEO position), that even I was not pleased with, it’s not clear to me that you can point the finger to the CEO and say it’s all his fault. Even with their bandwidth proposal as an example, only 12 of the Directors approved, with 3 disapproving, to move forward and submit it to the FCC. Seems like a democratic process to me.

Also, in order oust Mr. Sumner from position of CEO; you would need to convince at least 8 members of the BoD not to vote in favor of his re-election if he’s nominated in the next even-numbered year. Or, some other candidate would have to be identified, that would have to be nominated to run for the position in opposition to the current candidate by at least one Director. At least 8 Directors would have to vote in favor for the opposing candidate.

We should make it a point to generate some AM presence down in the 3600-3700 kc Extra class phone portion.  We should have a nice clear channel down there.  I suspect it's going to be pretty sparce,  with loads of vacant frequencies.  Just like it is now.  But it will make transatlantic AM QSO's much easier.

Yeah, a lil' pirate activity for me at 3625.  I'll have to turn in my extra lite ticket and get a no-code upgrade.

I still say Bring back Huntoon.  Get some order in this class.  Yeah, 250kc CW every band forever.

That's a good question Mike. Short answer is, of course, they could not.
But it begs another question. Why did they not expect it ?  Had they had their collective fingers on what was really happening on the bands they might have considered a larger expansion then they requested. ie.... 25 khz here, 25 there.

It was obvious to most mildly attentive hams that the phone bands needed MAJOR expansions.

But I'm just a dumb ass buddly... what do I know?

    My ticket says I can use Fone from 3600-4000 kc. That is exactly what I intend to do. If the freq has been clear for 10 minutes or so, it's mine. The worst thing to do, I feel, is to hang around a certain freq. This will put us back in the same pigeon-hole we were in on 3885! Best thing to do is keep moving around and use all the kc's your ticket allows. That way our AM presence will be noted.
    The ARRL sent me a letter offering me The Antenna Book if I would re-join. I bought one about 10 years ago and it fell apart several years later because it was so cheaply bound. Remember these were the guys that proposed to make AM illegal. Know thy enemy.
       

Gee,--the "new bandplan" say`s that cw IS LEGAL from 3500 to 4000,
which would also mean that I could/can use cw anywhere in that
window,--I wonder how many cw ops might just use that attitude
with all these "new privs" for fone?

                                         73, K1MVP 

CW has always been legal from 3500-4000 kHz. Nothing new here.

Judging from the endemic CW jamming I've experienced since becoming an AMer, quite a few.

The biggest issue we face in this is getting people down there to populate the frequencies regularly. The Canadian AM group on 3725 seems to vanish around dinner time never to return, so SSB stations have been staking their claims below 3750. Initially we had good activity down there, but as of late it's been sparse at best, non-existent many nights. I've called CQ dozens of times and eventually most get answered. Yet the 75m cesspool portion of the band still seems active despite carriers and jamming galore. I guess more folks are crystal controlled than we thought?  ;)

But "data" modes are prohibited wherever phone is allowed, for whatever reason.  CW can operate anywhere in the band.

I have noticed a little CW here and there popping up lately in the 3600-3750 range.  Also, some of the CW traffic nets are operating just below 3600.  Digital stuff seems to fall between between 3580 and 3600.

Fewer of the more recent licensees seem to have the vehement anti-AM attitude, and seem to merely think of AM as one other mode.  I suspect this is because they never lived through the era of "SSB indoctrination" that took place in amateur radio in the late 50's and throughout the 60's.  Many of the rabid anti-AM'ers were of the WW2 generation, who first got into amateur radio during the early postwar days , a generation that's now increasingly residing in nursing homes and rapidly joining the SK ranks.

For the very few newer hams who come in with an anti-AM attitude, this seems to be baggage left over from their 11m days.  Many of the "freebanders" equate AM with CB as it appears on the legal channels, something to be derided and ridiculed.

Probably the one thing that kept me from ever running SSB at my station was the intense sales pitch and all the other pressures back in the early 1960's, exerted by the amateur radio "establishment" on everyone to convert, and the guilt trip that was laid on anyone who baulked at the notion by continuing to run AM or even having anything good to say about it.

Some aspects of the AM/SSB "war mode" of the 60's were a challenge and some of it was downright fun, but it was too easy to get carried away, even causing a few individuals who weren't clever enough to figure out just exactly where to draw the line, to lose their licence.

I think I have a cooler head on the issue now that AM is now widely accepted as just one more facet of amateur radio to be enjoyed along with all the rest.  That is how it should have been all along.

SSB dates back as early as the 1920's as a voice communications mode, particularly for transoceanic commercial radiotelephone circuits that pre-dated the development of voice-capable undersea cable and satellite communication.

In amateur radio, AM has now been "coming back" for over 35 years, many more years than it was ever "dead" to begin with.

(http://www.amwindow.org/pix/jpg/w4ebg.jpg)

http://www.amwindow.org/pix/htm/w4ebg.htm

PS: It was Con and myself who used the "wobblers."  I don't think Walt ever had one.

SSB/AM wars in the 60's. Must of been away from the rig!

(http://iml.jou.ufl.edu/projects/Students/Vijoy/woodstock.jpg)

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