The AM Forum

It looks like car dealers are now required to notify car buyers that their new car will be equipped with an Event Data Recorder (EDR).

http://www.cnn.com/2006/AUTOS/08/21/event_data_recorder_rule/index.html

Sounds like a good idea to me.  I thing the data should be downloaded regularly and then analyzed by  law enforcement computers which can then flag irregularities in driving patters. Additionally, as  it is recorded the data can be analyzed in real time. If certain recognizable patterns can be matched thatmight indicate drunkor  impaired driving the car can do one of two things. Either disable itself  and/or transmit it's exact location via GPS coordinated so that Police can apprehend the vehicle BEFORE it engages in an accident.

Privacy advocates would have a field day with this one but, it  might not be such a bad idea to record conversations within the vehicle. Computer recognition could be used to pick out specific keywords that might indicate dangerous or criminal behavior. At that point the conversation could be uploaded to the cops so they can make a decision as to whether or not to intercept and apprehend the vehicle.

Even better, if voice recognition or facial recognition were employed police could match it to known criminals or terror suspects  and would actually know beforehand if a dangerous criminal is in the vehicle. Think about the advantages this can have during routine traffic stops. Police would know if the person they are stopping is a terrorist, kidnapper, escaped convict, murderer, or just Joe average with no criminal record.

Attention Criminals !! You may want to think twice before hopping behind the weheel of a car  in the near future...

Yep, they should have the same thing in houses and businesses too.

Well, SOME houses and SOME  businesses...

Make it universal. This way no criminals can sneak by.

The way technology is inter-weaving with everyday life, I can see the day coming when everyone simply accepts the fact that they are being monitored in most parts of life. 

Already there are cameras watching every corner of the major cities, cell phones are easily monitored, bank transactions are watched. Credit card habits are watched as well as certain internet activity. The airports are getting to be a symbol of the ultimate submission: "Sir, please look straight ahead while the security officer probes around in your underwear for awhile".

Is everyone familiar with the current federal AML regulations as a result of the Patriots Act? (anti money laundering)  You will not believe the hoops they make financial institutions jump through these days. The days of moving hot money through banks, brokerage firms and the like are over. Then there's the Disaster Recovery Plans every financial institution needs. They now require back up office control centers at remote locations, duplicate this and that... a lot has changed since 9-11. I've had to write up programs for compliance in both areas. It was not easy to get them approved either.

How about this one...  Last year I spotted a CT State Cop walking around my property taking pictures,  looking at the towers and opening the military shelters. I axed him what was up and he said new fed regs require them to document and register every tower in the state. Sure enuff, I had to submit all the global positioning info, tower size, use, etc. It is now in a master listing on a govt website. Even though everything was properly zoned with the town, the feds wanted pictures and all the data. I do look a little like a young Muslim spy, huh?


I think it will get to the point someday where we all say to ourselves... "If I have nothing to hide, then let them listen in".  Sad but true. It will not happen without a fight, but it appears to be moving this way simply because of the monitoring ease permitted by technology and the "reasons" given as a result of the terrorism fears.

Personally, it doesn't bother me.  So far it hasn't affected my life other than going to the airport. I mean QTF? Things are changing quickly. I wonder how this point in time with all the paranoia today will all look 20 years from now?

T

When I was cashing a check drawn on KeyBank, there was a little cup at the tellers window. I was asked to put my little finger in the cup, and then press the finger onto the check. They refused to honor the check  (a payroll check )  unless a print was taken.......  Anyone remember finger painting???  Friction ridge impressions dont take to smearing to well.  I hope the camera caught me swirling my finger on the check......   

The purpose of all this???   They have a payroll check, my signature, my photo ID and more cameras than the local CBS affiliate....  what good is the print going to do for them???   Morons .....

I remeber something a while back about breathalyzer ignition disablers. I guess some state was experimenting with the technology on repeated DUI offenders.

Even worst is that none of this stuff will stop crime or terror. It may reduce the likihood in some cases and  thus might be a good thing if used inteligently. But just look at all the measures that were taken to curb the drug trade and yet it still flourishes. Just bring the money and you can get the strongest stuff in whatever amounts you want. Ultimately were are headed in the direction of a heaviilly sureveilled world with a "nothing to  hide, nothing to fear" attitude. And  while it may be true that most people have nothing to hide, those  that do have something to hide will learn to become that much more stealth  and/or will learn how to use this increased surveillance and technology in their favor. Or learn to avoid it. And over time those who feel that have "nothing to hide"  will probably come to the realization that they have quite a bit  more to hide than they ever realized. Our system is far from perfect and in day to day living  many people depend on the reality that someone will look the other way, something will go unnoticed, etc. even if it's something very minor  like not paying a bill on time or leaving a car parked a bit beyond when the meter runs out or, driving a slight bit over the speed limit, etc. . In a society where surveillance is paramount and absolute there is no concept of "letting something slide", or "something going unnoticed". Everything will be noticed, recorded and must be accounted for. Our lives will eventually become a big  mess of trying to account for things we have never accounted for before. Yet, there will still be those who will always be able to pay someone to look the other way or to have the surevillance systems temporarily disabled  or turned off. Ultimaterly I think surveillance society will work for a while but ultimately will fail. It's so unnatural that it will be self  defeating.

Yep, worked great for The Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, and others.
 
Personally, I'd rather accept the risk of an occasional attack than live in a police state.  I hate to think I wasted 22 years of my life in the military defending our way of life, just to have it pissed away buy a bunch of apathetic couch patatoes, how want things handed to them on a silver spoon... [\rant]

My Dad used to tell me that sometimes you take one on the chin for what you believe in.  I wish his generation was still around, (WWII Vets)  Those guys would have rolled up their sleeves and put things to rights...

 Seriously the more you give the Government the harder it will be to get it back.

The way we lose things isn't all at once, but just little bits taken slowly over time. By the time anyone gets over their apathy, it'll be too late.   Like some forms of cancer, slowly eating away at something that was beautiful and unique.

All this will last until a some people with guts remember what it means to be an American and that the price of Freedom has always been the Blood of those who would be Free.

Even better have the car lock its doors and be programmed to then drive to the nearest constabulary.
This is ok with me as I have nothing in my uderwear!

Just get it over with and implant a chip in everyone's head that allows the government to control their thoughts. Then surveillance won't be required. Much simpler and much safer.

Perhaps a 64 pill Muddywater Slapper driving a sensor input would do the trick !!

Well put a scope on the input lines to the device and record the data when your driving reasonably
Then build a little microprocessor based device that will always generate this signature and hook it into the
device. The man will think your the best driver around. You might even get a good driver award.
I did this type of things a few years back for a job. This device recorded garage door opener type signals and regenerated them on demand.
Q

All kidding aside, the thing to keep in mind here is that in Germany's case, it was the government keeping an eye on the people. This EDR thing is not the government. It's probably being pushed by car insurance companies.

Now that would do the trick. Now need to worry about surveillance or anything else...  Anyone starts worrying they can just shut it off.

I put insurance company crap right up there with hitler.
Then they will want to raise the rates even more to pay for monitoring us.
All our products at work store fault codes so we can fix things easier and understand why they failed. To serve the customer not screw them.

                             the next move is for "Duck Speak".. This is when the higher order section of  brain is not needed to communicate...   klc

Wow. Genocide, world war, and live human medical experimentation (to name a few) are equivalent to higher insurance prices. OK, if you say so.

Yup, In their strange little way. How about the way they deny coverage to a sick person needing special services. I like the way they stall you till you die method of saving money. I'm going through it with my OM and he has good insurance.
Delay and stall that is the American way of medicine.

In Germany he would have been shot or sent to a camp. And probably you too. Hardly comparable to anything in this country.

The Nazis killed the sick, mentall ill and infirm..anyone not "productive". It was done in the hospitals, by doctors. This was before the war.   

Some of the Naza programs were based on American research of the 1920's......  Check out the Tuskegee studies for starters .... klc

That's like the bill I received for my recent oral surgery.  Insurance paid for about 20% of it.  Why bother.

Hello,
     I have no problem with cameras, and monitoring devises. The martains have been monortering my brain waves for years (exept when I'm wearing my tin foil hat, of course.
     I await their comming, and bringing me on board their spaceship (flying saucer with a tracker beam. )
I think that they will use me for breeding stock, after of course they remove my kidneys, and liver with a laser.

Best Regards,

LURD

Surely, the aliens have better surgical instruments than lasers.  They can probably get organs and nobody would even know that they had them stolen.

Clearly LURD is dealing with inferior aliens. The ones I deal with merely think they want my liver and it's gone. Or it could have been the beer. Whatever.....

Heck, the aliens I deal with (on a regular basis I might add) just push the replicator button and out pops as many livers as you need.

T

Hello Everyone,
     Yes, I know that there are much more advanced beings out there, BUT please understand that I am dealing with the Martians.
     You know, the little green ones, that leak their yellow pus all over the place.

Best Regards,

LURD

I got mine! You rubes really didnt believe all this cancer stuff, did you?

wait a minute.....recieving  command from master control....... KILL KILL KILL KILL KILL eat brains KILL KILL KILL yummy brains snorf bite

ROTFLMAO!!! ;D

Bob,
Too bad you couldn't make it over a couple weeks ago. Bob and i would have filled you with beer to kill the pain.
BTW. good insurance just means more people get to test you running the bill even higher before you get what you need.
I remember when I blew out my back and went directly to the man. I called my insurance and told them I wasn't going to waste their money playing games.
I bet it would be a problem doing that today.

Another Article on the OP

Copley News Service

August 24, 2006 Thursday  12:17 PM EST

Auto black boxes infringe on driver privacy

BYLINE: The Detroit News

SECTION: DAILY EDITORIALS

LENGTH: 395 words

Cars and trucks are safer today than ever before and that's been achieved without the use of black box technology that tracks speed, seat belt use and braking habits, among other things.
It should stay that way.
Black boxes, also known as event data recorders, serve a legitimate purpose when installed on vehicles that ferry the public around, such as airplanes, buses or trains. In crashes they can help determine causes, and if defects in manufacturing are at fault, they can be corrected.
But their universal use in vehicles owned and operated by private citizens presents too many privacy concerns to justify mass installation. The boxes are monitoring - not safety - devices.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has wisely stopped short of mandating that black boxes be installed in cars and trucks, but has been pushing automakers to include them on all models for the last few years. Toyota Motor Corp. installs them on all new models and General Motors Corp. and Ford Motor Co. install them on almost all. DaimlerChrysler AG puts the boxes in about half of its cars and trucks.
On Monday, NHTSA ruled that by 2010 the devices must be made more durable and that all automakers must collect the same data. Auto manufacturers also must include notification in the owners' manual that their vehicles have black boxes. Black boxes on cars and trucks record and store information from just before an accident, during the accident and shortly after it. More than 40 items are tracked and reported.
Automakers like them for the safety related issues. Absolving them of fault in crashes certainly plays a part as well. If it's determined that driver error was involved, it would be hard for a jury to levy heavy fines on a company. The court issue is another murky matter. Clear guidance as to who can access that information has yet to be established. The use of such data must only be allowed when ordered by the court, not at the request of every trial lawyer looking to exploit the technology and information.
An opt-in system that requires consumers to actively agree to the use of such devices on their cars is a better system and it would still provide real-time crash information, but not at the expense of privacy.
Advanced safety features on cars and trucks are always good things, but surveillance devices are unnecessary.
Reprinted from The Detroit News.

"An opt-in system that requires consumers to actively agree to the use of such devices on their cars is a better system and it would still provide real-time crash information, but not at the expense of privacy."

Hmmm... I can imagine the insurance companies giving their customers an offer they can't refuse. Either opt in or your rates will be much higher. Something like the higher rates paid by new drivers who haven't had driver's ed training. I'll bet the insurance actuaries (bookies) will find people drive more conservatively when they know they are on record in case of accident. Most people have no idea of what these devices can do, so they will assume the worst and slow down.

Considering that many of the big gun car manufacturers are already installing these black boxes, it sounds like it will definately be a way of life in the future. The part about protecting the manufacturer from frivolous crash liability lawsuits is a great motivator for them.

Someday, the only cars w/o them will be older models - integrating a black box into a non-interfaced car system is impractical.  Almost like the pre-emisson reg cars driving today. Let's say that pre-2006 will be the rough line in the dirt, depending on model.

T

                          "The use of such data must only be allowed when ordered by the court, not at the request of every trial lawyer looking to exploit the technology and information."

The word is "discovery". This is a major component of most civil lawsuits. I doubt the 'black box' information would be supressed by a court. The discovery process tends to settle lawsuits out of court, as both sides know the strength of their opponents arguments. The judicial system likes this as it keeps their calander less crouded.  For the interested the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure can be found at                                http://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcp/#chapter_v                                          klc

                          "The use of such data must only be allowed when ordered by the court, not at the request of every trial lawyer looking to exploit the technology and information."

The word is "discovery". This is a major component of most civil lawsuits. I doubt the 'black box' information would be supressed by a court. The discovery process tends to settle lawsuits out of court, as both sides know the strength of their opponents arguments. The judicial system likes this as it keeps their calander less crouded.  For the interested the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure can be found at                                http://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcp/#chapter_v                                          klc

To all of those that claim they think it's OK because they
have nothing to hide:  How will you feel when video
recorders are installed in the bedrooms of every new
home?

If you then claim that you have nothing to hide, it
only confirms my suspicions about the size of your BA's.

Depends, Will I be able to order copies of the videos for various people I know?

I'm not worried  about myself as NO ONE is going to want to see me in the bedroom
(http://www.geocities.com/multielvi/mojo/fat.jpg)

That happened here in CT.  Don't know if it was the same case but they guy sued and I think he won.  I could be wrong though. It was a while ago.

OK, So I have a car that has one of these litte black boxes in it and it records speed.  I get pulled over for speeding and I know I was within the speed limit.  How do I use the info to prove the cops wrong. Probably wouldn't be admissable if I pulled the data out.

What happens when the diameter of the wheels are changed to bigger or smaller wheels?  The speed registered will certainly be different from the actual speed.

Just a matter of time before the "short" time interval is turned into a "long" interval to record overall driver habits.

    You've heard what happens to a frog in a pan of water on a small flame. It doesn't recognize the slow increase in temperature and eventually gets boiled.
     Some of you remind me of that frog.

Here in NewYorkState we have an electronic toll collector called EazyPass.. You drive through the toll boot and don't have to stop... there is a record; from this they can determin speed... dont need no stinkin gps, and you provide the tracking device......     klc

I have EZPass and drive faster than the limit allows through NY and NJ and it's never been an issue.  I've heard this to be an issue but have never experienced it myself.  Can't find it on Snopes.

Bob,
   Thats hiting it on the head....   Before the ezpzss (and still) , one got a toll ticket with the time and exit stamped on it... all anyone had to do was look at the tag at the exit and figure out your speed........  the state police never did that, and they've had 53+ years to figure it out....  but the ability is there...  As far as your speeding, well, .....   klc

I got a letter form E Z Pass threatening to drop my account because I went too fast thorugh the toll.
I don't speed through them so it must have been just over the limet

Many newer cell phones have GPS or other locating capability, most often turned on by default. Read up on E911.  Even before E911, you could be tracked within a few miles (maybe less) if your cell phone was powered on.

Its RF...

The ezpass "speed" ticket is the speed limit going through the toll both.. usally 5 Mph...excess speed trips the camera and there you are ....You'll notice tractor trailers (almost) always go through slow... The next generation ezpass toll will allow more than 5 Mph... they are hoping of a throughput of 25 Mph or greater...

the instantaneous speed cant be taken, only the average,   So why go 80 Mph and then hang around the toll booth untill your time is O.K.??    Maybee sleep in a rest area and then hammer down ....   The classic line was asked to a guy doing 95  Mph in a rain storm 'wheres the fire??  was answered  with " Fire?  You see any f....k ladders on this car??"

So if you really want to confuse them swap phones with someone. They'll think you're them and they're you.

NEC launches image processing chips that automatically slam on brakes, with the first going into a Toyota Motor Corp. Lexus model to be launched this fall.

Image recognition technology is more widely known for enabling high-end surveillance cameras to pick out an individual in a crowd, but the market for them in cars is still small.

Honda Motor Co. Ltd. has also developed cars that give warning or swerve before hitting an object.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/14511933/

That could be a minor problem is one is riding the Amtrak Acela or flying their own aircraft.

Don said:
Swerve to miss an object or animal and get into a wreck here in these parts, and your're busted for 'reckless driving'.

You can count on this.

E911 "GPS" can be disabled unless you dial 911 on every phone I have ever seen.

And I believe the tracking you by cell is because the cell companies work with law enforcement and allow them to watch a numb er as it logs in to new cells as you move (an important part of how the technology works).

You are correct. The location function can be selected so that is activates only when you dial 911, or at least as far as you know ;)

That said, any cell phone can be tracked if it's on and talking to the cell towers. This capability is a least a decade old. The cell companies developed it back in the AMPS days to try to deal with phone cloning and illicit use of the system.

They can't make your spouse testify against you but now your car - YOUR OWN property - automatically testifies against you, even without your consent.

Amazing.

Wack it with a taser before the cops arrive.