The AM Forum

Perhaps somebody can explain this phenomenon. Why is it that when one needs a flat head screwdriver they will only find phillips head screwdrivers. And when one needs a philly screwdriver they'll only find flat head screwdrivers ? This is a phenomenon that has plagued me since I can remember. Does this phenomenon have a name ? Perhaps someone can explain it ?

 P.P.P.    piss poor planing   is the syndrone i'm familiar with .....klc

John you should subscribe to the 6 P principal.  Proper planning prevents pi** poor performance.

Should you get an more enlightned answer, let me know.

It's like asking why the buttered side of the bread is always facing down when it hits the floor; why it rains the same day your wax your car; why rush hour is longer than an hour; why we drive on the parkway and park in the driveway......

why thoes  leetle screws always fall into the carborator   ...klc

I had an insanity screw driver set in the closet for those days when the screw driver type you need are all hiding under your nose.....and the XYL wasn't around to blame.

Or down into the innards of a radio, etc., taking one forever to fish them out. :o

Murphy's law always will out!! ;D ;D (Anything that can go wrong WILL go wrong!!)

                                                        The Slab Bacon

Leave the screws out next time.

When there's a choice of screws, you'll get screwed.
It's a natural fact.

Hi, Buddly!!

With his new call,W2VW, we cant call him the apeman anymore. I guess we should start calling the bugman?? ;D ;D Isn't that what we used to call VW's? (I guess i'm showing my age)
                                                        The Slab Bacon

Ball Peen Hammer. The universal tool  (http://www.homedepot.com/cmc_upload/HDUS/EN_US/asset/images/eplus/132560_3.jpg)

Hey John,

Some years back there was an article in the paper about just what your inquiring about.  The bottom line was GREMLINS.  Why is it that when your'e looking for that ball of string in the kitchen junk drawer all you find is the roll of tape?  How come when you need the hammer, the pliers appears, but when you need the pliers, there's the hammer?  The answer is GREMLINS.  They're the ones that do all the switching around, just to piss us off.

Right now I'm trying to find that article about the gremlins, but the one on bigger petunias keeps popping up  ;D.

vH

Actually, there are 3 parts to Murphy's Law:

Nothing is as easy as it looks.

Everything will take longer than you think.

If anything can go wrong it will.

I believe I have a little black hole floating around inside the house and workshop.  Stuff just disappears.  Usually it eventually shows back up, but I regularly have a few things simply vanish off the face of the earth - the Black Hole triumphs again!

My solution is to have plenty of tools.  I never turn down a good tool if I see one at a good price at a flea market.  Over the years I  have accumulated a pretty good collection.  But there is a point of diminishing returns.  The more tools you have, the more tools you have to lose, and the longer it takes to find the one you want.

I understand why surgeons have O.R. techs whose sole job is to keep track of the instruments.  Imagine, right in the middle of heart or brain surgery with blood squirting, the doc stops his procedure: "Where is the $@%@% scapel?"
 
A problem I have with Phillips screws is that they so easily turn into pivot-bearing assemblies if you don't use exactly the correct size.  Actually, Torx screws work better.  From my experience, the driver tip will break before hole rounds out.

Allen-heads are very bad about rounding out.  Bristo (or Bristol if you prefer) heads work better, but drivers are almost impossible to find except by special order.  Never, ever try to turn a Bristo screw with an Allen driver.  This will immediately break off the little splines, and your driver/screw assembly turns into a shaft/bushing assembly. 

It took me months to finally get the kilocycle dial off a 75A-4 because the PO had done just that.  I ended up having to purchase a counter-clockwise drill just the right size to bite into the rounded out hole and remove the screw.  And the screw would turn only after I heated it to soften the green lock-tite Collins puts on their setscrews.  To heat the screw without melting the plastic dial, I homebrewed a long tip to my smallest soldering iron, and then put a drop of heatsink compound on the end of the tip, and inserted the tip in the hole to conduct heat from soldering iron tip to screw.  I used multi-layers of tinfoil as a heat shield to keep from damaging the plastic dial while heating the screw.

It worked.  And I had a  stroke of anti-Murphy's Law.  In my box of tiny screws, I found ONE screw in the entire box that was the correct size and had the correct thread pitch to fit the hole and serve as a  setscrew!

It is called The Law Of Bread And Butter.

What's the stripping experience among head types?
I haven't had any experience with torx stuff, but I tell ya, it's at least 10:1 with Phillips heads stripping versus flatheads.

I think it's a plot by the fastener industry.

...HAVE YOU GUYS EVER SEEN A ROBERTSON SCREW,AND SCREW DRIVER?...AMAZING...SQUARE RECESS IN THE HEAD OF THE SCREW,AND THE BITS ARE SQUARE AS WELL...YOU WILL HAVE A HELL OF A TIME STRIPPING THESE BABIES...THE SCREW WILL ACTUALLY SIT IN THE 'DRIVER,AS YOU POSITION YOURSELF...VERY COMMON IN CANADA,THE GUY WHO INVENTED THEM,(ROBERTSON) FER SOME REASON NEVER GOT WHIRL-WIDE ATTENTION TO THESE,BUT YOU WILL FIND THEM IN EVERY HARDWARE STORE IN CANADA...FAR MORE PRACTICAL THAN SLOTTED..TAKE ALOT OF TORQUE,AND AVAILABLE IN ALL KINDS OF SHANK LENGTH,AS WELL AS HEAD SIZE...UNIVERSAL(ROUNDED) HEAD,OR COUNTER SUNK....TIM....SK...

Is that what they are called? Robertsons.
Yes, I have seen them as fasteners in the men's room to keep visitors from dismantling the stalls.
Maybe Robertson was inspired as he sat there one time?

The best fasteners by far are the Zeus fasteners TMC used on covers.  Quarter turn and it unsnaps and the screw is captive so you can't lose it.

For the same reason a fly will fly in the open half of the window and spend the rest of its life bouncing off the closed half try to get back out.

--Thom
Kilowatt Amplifier One Zero Grid Current

There was actually a program on TV the other night about P.L. Robertson and his quest to tie up the world wide market in screw fasteners.His timing was bad as WW 1 was just starting.About the time WW2 started the Phillip's screw was making inroads and although far inferior to the Robertson head it got widely accepted in the US at the time because it was an American that invented it and it was considered good business not to rely on another company/country for a necessary product.Robertson was a Canadian.

Zeus are cool, John, you're right.
Kinda like the BNC of sheet metal fasteners.
Used extensively in race cars and aircraft so they must work.

Their shortcoming is length. They can't go but so far before the shaft and spring get unwieldy and perhaps not seat where they are supposed to.

Over the years I've been very impressed by the mechanical ability and designs from Canada. I've seen a number of heavy duty projects of various kinds and found they build things strapping up there. They build stuff like Harley quality compared to many nations who settle for throw away riceburners.

Speaking of work ethics - For example, I just received a 1000' spool of coax from a Canadian surplus outfit. They took the time to add twelve, 12" wooden studs as spokes on the reel to beef it up. They added steel straps and also wrapped it in plasdick.   W.J. Ford is the name of the company. Total integrity.  I'm glad Canada is our neighbor - couldn't axe for a better one.  Just think of the many countries of the whirl who are always fighting with theirs.


T

...PAUL...THAT WOULD TELL ME THE STALLS ARE MADE IN CANADA...YOU FIND THEM IN APPROX.70 PERCENT OF "STUFF" HERE,FOLLOWED BY PHILLIPS AND SLOTTED....YA GOTTA TRY THEM..!....SK..

The screws we use in the Virginia class submarine ship control system are for the most part slotted head screws. We also use some philips screws as well but the steel that's used in both types is harder than the steel used on screwdrivers.  The tech in my department replaces or retips his drivers and regular basis because the ends wear down and end up camming out.

Bob,
I think it is called an apex head. I remember building up sidewinders and mavricks using those secews to hold section joints.

Have you been over to Niantic River. The state fixed it up real nice. My brother and I took my Dad fishing there yesterday. We used to go as kids and sit on the rocks.
It was great until the two legged pigs showed up with la bomba at 100dB. It was so nice having my son step over a freshly used rubber to get in the truck tossed from the van next to us.

Hey Frank,
I haven't been down to Niantic to walk around since they put the boardwalk in.  I do go by there each weekend but have never stopped to look at what they did down there.  I've heard that it's pretty nice.  A guy that I work with (the tech I mentioned in my previous post) lives near there and walks down there a lot.  He likes it alot.

Too bad the two legged pigs and latex litter put a damper on your afternoon.  I never ceases to amaze me the human trash we have around here.  The unfortunate thing is if we did the same thing right in their front yard (if they're lucky to have one) or flung one on their porch it wouldn't make a damn bit a difference to them.  These people are worse than than the disgusting insects I have around here as far as I'm concerned.

Did you guys catch anything?  I haven't been fishing in about 5 years.  Just bought my fishing license to do a little fly fishing this year on the Salmon River here in town. I've been itching to get a line wet for some time.  Also need to do a little saltwater fishing too. I miss being out on the ocean.  Have been contemplating on buying a boat to get out on the sound and do some striped bass and bluefish fishing.

OK on the apex screws.  I know one thing they go in easy but are a bitch coming out.  They're used once then tossed and a new one goes in to replace it.  They never reuse them.  I'm not sure why that is but that's what they do. It may have something with the sealant they put on the threads and the difficulty they have removing them or the screw probably gets stressed upon removal and they don't want to risk having it break prematurely in a combat situation. That's my guess.

I don't know if anyone has done this in the event of a stripped screw head or not but I've stripped my share of screw heads in the past.  One thing I do if the room permits is to grab the head of the screw with a nice sharp pair of diagonal cutters to crack the screw.  The other option I take is to use a Dremel tool with a cutting wheel and carefully grind a slot into it and use a slotted screwdriver to crack it.  You don't want to go to deep otherwise you'll break off a piece of the screwhead then you'll be in deeper doo-doo.  Again, that all depends on the room you have.  Of course, Murphy will cause a screw to get stripped in the tightest places then either option doesn't work.

I didn't know you guys use to go to Niantic. As a JN my family would spend Sunday afternoons on the "beach" and my dad and I would fish off the dock for blackfish.  The train would go over that old black monster moving bridge and we'd stand under it scared.  The Mijoy was the big log fishing boat at the time.

I've been there a few times since and saw the rotted-out boardwalk and also saw the beginnings of the new. I must pay a visit again.

The last time I fished in a boat in the area there was absolutely no fish. They say the nuclear plant's hot water killed off the young fish and cleaned the area out. I dunno. Is there still flounder, blacks and stripers there?  If so, I might go down during high tide and try my luck off the boardwalk. 

T

Tom,
I couldn't avoid Niantic.  I grew up and lived in Waterford and the shore was my life line.  When I had my boat years ago occasionally I'd go to the discharge area of Millstone and catch bluefish without much trouble. Millstones discharge was on the Waterford side.  The inlets to the cooling side of the plant are on the Niantic side so the water temp on that side never changed. I'm sure there was some ecological changes when the warmer waters hit the shore on the Waterford side but I never had any trouble catching something there. There was a kill in the Niantic side several years back that affected flounder, scallops and an bunch of other species and it was determined that the plant wasn't the cause but chemicals, sewage and other run off from the Niantic river and it's tributaries had apparently attributed to it. The Niantic bay is slowly recovering.  A friend of mine and his father who run the Sunbeam Express Fishing Charter service in Waterford have started a scallop breeding business to not only sell native scallops to the public but also to reseed the bay for those who want to scallop. So far things are working out and bay is recovering. As long as inland pollution is kept at bay that area should recover nicely.

I remember one day a couple of friends and I were at restaurant across from the Mijoy and just before the Mijoy got underway some guy decided to throw a line over the side of the boat and hauled up one of the biggest strippers I've ever seen.

Most of the time I'd go out far or fish in Fishers Island Sound especially in the Mumford Cove area in and around Groton. I've done shore fishing off the rocks off of Ocean beach with much success too, blues and strippers using artificial baits.  When I would go out deep into the sound I'd use mackeral with a weight and go low.  I'd usually hit some pretty big blues that would put up a big fight.  I had one blue one time that took me nearly 10 minutes to bring in.  My arms were so tired afterwords but it was one of the biggest blues I pulled in.  Alot of the shore fishing in that area is dependant on tides, air temp, wind and time of day.

With that said, a bad day of fishing is better than a good day at work.

Tom,
They replaced the old board walk. My dad used to take us fishing there every summer. Yup that was a lot of fun to watch the bridges open and close.
Some years we were lucky and some not but still it was something to do. My brother and I would dig sand worms at low tide so we could go more often. My Dad loves to fish and he never cared much if he caught anything.
It is beautiful there now. My son was sitting on a floating dock with his feet in the water holding his fishing pole.
The tide was just starting to come in so we were a bit early. Then it got kind of hot so we headed back to my place for a big bowl of ice cream.
Just as we were leaving a guy pulled in a small striper. We were told the best place to fish was in the channel under the new bridge...the spot the fish was caught.
just like the old bridge. Nothing like sitting in the shade of that old bridge.
There is a cool old picture in the town hall that shows stairs up to the tracks so you could walk across them. My Dad said it was that way when he was a kid before the first board walk. We lost a lot of hooks in the rocks out by the nuke plant we never caught much out there.
Heading west out of Niantic My street is one east of Rocky Neck and we have no public parking. We usually have a bit of a problem on fourth of July but this year
they are posting State Police at the end of the street. The park fills up fast so people are looking for places to park and drive around the neighborhood looking for spots.
my hunter neighbor tells a funny story about the time he told a couple of guys to get lost and they pulled a gun on him. Harry reached in and grabbed a rifle and asked what's next. He is a very good neighbor and set me up with the 3 contractors I used. Stop by if you guys are ever around.

Square heads are standard on "Pre-Fabricated Homes" - Mobile Homes.

As far as stripping a Phillips, you won't normally strip one if you use the proper sized driver - which is usually the largest one that will fit into the slots. Not that little skinny one!  ;)

I carry around a nifty little driver I got at a "bargain store" a few years back, it has two flippable 1/4" driver sides with a double sided phillips bit on one side and a double sided flat on the other - been really handy to have in my bag so many times I can't count. The other thing I carry is this submini "Leatherman" tool. It's only 2.5" long folded, but it works.

What really bugs me is the Bristol spline set screws on this darn Collins built R-388!!  ;D ??? ::) :o ;D

                      _-_-WBear2GCR

They are superior to Allen screws, but it is hard to find Bristo drivers.

I've fixed all the Bristos on all my R390 and R390A.

One good smack on the end of an Allen/hex key, and it seats nicely from then on.

What, exactly, are phillips head screws good for, anyway?  And why do they keep using them, given all the problems?

Speaking of stalls...most stalls I've done my reading in lately have had those "can't unscrew 'em" type of screws.  Do vandals really like to take stalls apart?

And another mystery for the ages.  Ever notice how many stall coathooks are broken?  I can almost understand that in a public place...but a lot of coathooks at work have been busted.  Is there something sinister or threatening about a coat hook that makes people go crazy?

... See the movie "Midnight Run"...... klc