The AM Forum

     I was listening to the local oldies AM station on my 12 year old original equipment car
       radio.  Ricky Nelson and others just sounded much better than the announcer, ads,
       anything else. Why is that? Is it my personal preference?  To my limited knowledge
       of audio, it sounds like a very small amount of reverb or over dub.

     If I could make my Valiant II sound like that, I would be a happy guy.

                                                       Ed Purvis
                                                       Bradenton, Fl

I'll venture a guess....better talent, a good singing voice, good production values. When you have to lay it down, and not bet on the en gin err covering up your mis takes, youll probably try harder... Listen to Rudolf the red raindeer around Christmass on FM ( just 'caus of the wider BW available) - its put together well....  klc



<<<or the air was cleaner, and did not effect the Cu wires as much>>>

By the way, I remember he wanted to be called "Rick" in his later years, trying to get away from the tennybopper era image of his career.

Tom said:
Maybe it was that 'Garden Party' gig he performed at.

The NPR gurus had a weird segment on why we are wired genetically to respond to some human voices more than others. The example given was Mick Jagger!

I respond negatively to him.  Don't know why, guess I can see that mouth flapping and his attempt at rhythm on stage.

   Speaking of responding negatively   ---  "Pat Boon Sings Elvis"     I want to stick knitting needles in my ears when I hear him... Almost as bad as Capt Kirk and Mr. Tamboreen Man....   klc

            So far, it seems there is no technical reason why some voices sound better
      on my cheap and old system.
                                                    Ed

Ha! I have the mp3 of Shatner singing 'Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds' which was voted the worst cover of all times a few years ago. Also have 'Spock'/Nimoy singing 'If I had a Hammer' and 'Put a Little Love in your Heart'. It's a hoot! And you still see it today, someone gets famous in acting and decides they can be a rock star too.  ::)

As far as the better sound, i wonder if it has to do with the way things in the audio chain are set up at the station? Limiter/compressor times and whatever else, and whether all of the channels are set up the same or run through the same path? I've listened to stations where the music sounded FAR better than it does from the average recording, but the DJ and spots sounded thin. It always bothered me that my music never sounded as good, regardless of what I played it on: Harmon Kardon tube amp or Pioneer solid state.

Pat Boone singing Elvis is disgusting!! Shatner doing "tamborine man" or "lucy in the sky" is beyond horrible. BUT PLEASE................ NIMOY DOING "PUT A LITTLE LOVE IN YOUR HEART"!!! IN THAT MONOTONE VOICE, PLEASE..................... that is disgusting beyond anything that words can describe!!

I think I'm gonna.......................................PUKE!! :o :o :o


 

back in 1984ish WGY had a afternoon musick show... the dj played all the favorites one day.. The Pat Boon one was "Hound Dog" about 1/4 tempo of the original with simple piano and string accompanyment. The best way to describe it is syrupie sweet, honey sticking  steeming bowl of shyite.... klc

Have you tested the high midrange of your system? - try Willie Nelson instead of Ricky Nelson.

WU2D

I think a very, very, light application of reverb can make the voice sound better to the ear as long as the audiio is not too complex. It can be easily overdone, though. I remember, back in the early '70's, Sansui and Pioneer sold Reverb Boxes for home stereo.

My favorite Ricky Nelson is "Hello, MaryLou", by the way!

It might be the oxygen that was never removed from the copper wire. Ooopps, I don't want to start with that can of worms again ;D

Well when you think of 1962"s "Telstar" by the Tornados, there is a tremendous amount of  both tape echo and spring reverb, both of which add nicely to this space-age song. It's an instrumental besides, with a lot going on.

On vocals alone, the spring reverb adds some sustain to the volume, making it sound fuller. A lot of Ricky Nelson's recordings are of the vintage where that was a popular production trick.

The one that fascinated me was "flanging." It's done electronicallly now, but in The Olde Days two tape machines with the same material were summed in phase, causing a swoopy sort of cancellation by audio frequency as the two signals came into, and then fell out of alignment.

The amount and the rate of this cancellation were varied by placing a thumb on the flange of the supply reel, and adjusting the volume of one source to establish the depth of the null.

Any number of songs come to mind where this was a hallmark. The earliest is probably 1967's "Pictures of Matchstick Men" by the Status Quo, and the most popular probably the Doobie Brothers "Listen to the Music."

And don't forget  "Itchikoo Park" , by the Small Faces (also 1967).

Gosh, don't you guys remember "The Big Hurt" by Toni Fisher?  It was number 56 of the top 100 in 1960.

Did that really have flanging?
Methinks your record was / is warped.
That's an entirely different effect.

"Now it begins..."

Re: "The Big Hurt"
That was a selective fading effect.  Sounded like phase distortion.  I always thought that it sounded like it was coming over a short wave broadcast station.  I liked it!  It really was a neat effect.  I think there might have been a few other recordings that had a similar effect, but I'm not a music archivist and can't remember which ones they were. (cue) ;)

73,  Jack, W9GT

Yes, the "Big Hurt" was an early classic using flanging. It was fun hearing it coming from a long distance on an AM radio late at night. The flanging and fading together was magic.

I once worked at a recording studio in the early 70's. A guy once came in with a pile of duplicate records and wanted every one recorded onto tape using the double record flanging technique. He musta had a lot of fun listening to it afterwards


A Google search shows:

"The classic flanging effect is believed to have been first perfected during 1966 by George Chkiantz, an engineer employed at Olympic Studios in Barnes, London, although it can be heard in The Big Hurt by Toni Fisher which rose to #3 in the Billboard chart in 1959. One of the first instances of the sound being used on a commercial pop recording was the Small Faces' 1967 single Itchycoo Park, recorded at Olympic and engineered by Chkiantz's colleague Glyn Johns."




T

now that you've gone
Needles and pins, twilight till dawn
Watching that clock till you return
Lighting that torch and watching it burn

Now it begins, day after day
This is my night, ticking away
Waiting to hear footsteps that say
"Love will appear and this time to stay"

Oh, each time you go
I try to pretend
It's over at last
This time the big hurt will end

Now it begins, now that you've gone
Needles and pins, twilight till dawn
But if you go, come back again
I wonder when, oh when will it end
The big hurt

The big hurt
The big hurt



 Really cool sounding tune.  :) HVS

Well I will dig up The Big Hurt on MP3 somewhere and refresh me because it's not clicking in.

Record flanging was fun too, you're right, but I wonder how you determined for that guy who wanted them duplicated  the rate of the cancellation. There's a certain art to picking where the null hits, you know. Otherwise it can be a mess.

When I worked in local radio, this time of year we had extended hours until signoff. Our showcase studio was at a shopping mall with a window studio we called the Fishbowl.  I was the newsguy, and stayed at the transmitter site and main studio to pull the switch at the end of the day.

This lent some opportunity to do some creative flanging on the air for what the DJ would hype as  "The Wierd Version ! " of various songs heard only on this station and only after management had left for the day.

One that turned out really well was Blondie's DREAMING, with a buncha 16th note drum hits and treble.  The trick at my end was to get the record up and synchronized in "cue," off the air, and then slowly pot it up to mix with the other record, while picking the approaching cancellation to hit the crescendo or bridge of the song. It built the musical tension right up to the null.

The pisser for the DJ was that he wasn't able to join in the fun. The turntables at the mall were the "new" Technics servo sync jobs. You'd put your finger on the flange and the damn thing would compensate speed.  So the old Russcos at the main site were the flangeable ones.

Then there was the QSB effect, most notably on "Don't Fear the Reaper" by Blue Oyster Cult. This was a standard test song on 75 meters in the 1970s. You'd get two stations, and you'd hear the song on one, and then the other, alternating. Audience would be the judge as to which transmitter was the cleanest, loudest, and best frequency response.

But in all that were the inevitable fades here and there, that indeed added that ethereal quality we've noted here.

If you wish to generate a million spam emails, you can download The Big Hurt for free here.  http://www.rhapsodylive.com/rhapsody/lp-015-af032/kw/the big hurt

When I was but a child listening to KOMA in OKC, I always wanted to hear it for the effect.  Unitl I was in OKC and heard it, I thought it was fading, which was common at night.  I lived about 180 miles from the station and there were many songs that had that effect, so I thought it was common and a recording thing.

I iived in a rural setting so at night I didn't have the noise of town around me so I alternated between KOMA, WNOE, WLS, KSTP and XERF when Woof Man Jack was there.  Those were the days. 

  If anyone has a copy of Eric Burdon and the Anamals The Twain Shall Meet,  The song Closer To The Truth has some really good SW type QSB effects.

Eric Burdon and the Animals have some flange in "Sky Pilot," too.
And the bagpipe battlefield scene in the extended version dramatically pans from left to right.

And, does anyone know how they did the revolving drum kit solo in the song Inna Gadda da Vita, by Iron Butterfly ?

I really envisioned a platform spinning slowly with the drummer riding it, set of stereo mics.  But it actually might have been a flange-based trick of some kind, having thought about it.

Best solo I've heard. Usually those drum bridges are tedious, self-aggrandizing exercises that end up sounding more like someone throwing their kitchen pots and pans down a flight of stairs.

Aha, Inna Gadda da Vita by Iron Butterfly.  Here are the lyrics and the original artist name
Garden of Eden
Joe Valino

When you walk in the garden
In the Garden of Eden
With a beautiful woman
And you know how you care
And the voice in the garden
In the Garden of Eden
Tells you she is forbidden
Can you leave her there

When you're yearnin' for lovin'
And she touches your hand
And your heart starts to poundin'
And you're feeling so grand
Can you lead her to heaven
And obey the command
Can you walk from the garden
Does your heart understand

When you walk in the garden
In the Garden of Eden
With a beautiful woman
And you know how you care
And a voice in the garden
In the Garden of Eden
Tells you she is forbidden
Can you leave her there

When you're yearnin' for lovin'
And she touches your hand
And your heart starts to poundin'
And you're feeling so grand
Can you lead her to heaven
And obey the command
Can you walk from the garden
Does your heart understand

When you walk in the garden
In the Garden of Eden
With a beautiful woman
And you know how you care
And the voice in the garden
In the Garden of Eden
Can't you see it's forbidden
Can you leave her there
Can you leave her there
Can you leave her there

Can you leave her there
================================================

Paul,

I didn't do the actual recording job - the owner of the studio did. I was just a technician who built custom mixer boards for clients at the time.

What I remember is the guy came in with a pile of records and wanted them flanged onto 8-track cassettes for his car! I could see he was smiling when he came in later to pick them up, so everything must have gone well. The owner later told me he simply monitored the mix and speeded up or slowed down the second turntable to generate the maximum flanging on the fly. Rather unscientific, but that's what he did for the custmer... ;D

I can imagine a good, successful mix would sound something like the random, trippy 160M Lorain sound.

T

YEAH, remember LORAN ? Sounded like a multi-engine propeller plane.

Lacking any really good drugs, I remember a kid down the street took speaker leads and scotch-taped them to a couple of coins, and then taped the coins to his temples to "feel" the sound of LORAN.


That's impressive.

 And Sky Pilot yep!  Inna Gadda da Vita dums? Maybe Roto Toms?

Hi Paul,
The old 3M machines really worked well for that flanging effect. With 2 machines outputs mixed equally just pushing your thumb on one or the other of those big fat capstans would give you quite a deep and very controllable effect.
Dave

Hey Dave !
I'm thinking you mean the AMPEX open reel machines, the 300s with the tape lift gate?
3M made cart machines (I have a PD II on loan to Nick KG2IR), but I don't think you could easily get to the capstans on them while underway.

Open reel lent itself very well to flanging, especially as vari-speed came in on some of the pro-decks with DC motors (MCI, Otari, Studer).

There's a song by Boston called Smokin' that has a Hammond B3 in it. Normally that organ has no pitch control, but in the song, it zooms UP in speed, apparently recorded such that when it came "time," they put their thumb on the reel to slow the tape down.

On playback at standard speed it of course sped up.

Cool effect, took us forever to figure out how they did it.

I looked on the WEB...........and THEY say that Flanging does have that Phasing sound...........I thought that flanging was more of a metallic distortion.  Oh Well
Another .02 cents worth

Fred

I watched part of his performance at the superbowl halftime this year.

Seems to me that he has developed a speech impediment.  When he sang the song "Satisfaction" he pronounced the words "I cain't get no satisfaction... and I've twied, and I've twied...

I don't remember it sounding that way in the original recording.

3M M56 & M79 series reel to reel recorders. M79 went up to 24 trk

AH ! 
I forgot about those machines, Dave, of course.
(http://www.coralsound.com/images/3mfloor.jpg)

I did a search -- M56 and M79 -- to remind me. I didn't do much multitrack work, that's what.

But what also came up -- the WOLLENSAK !!!

For that matter, didn't 3M buy the Wollensak line that we used to have in public school?
Wollensak was a white lid, then when 3M came in they changed it to green, added AVC, and kept it rolling another few years before analog hissettes came in and no one had to "learn" how to thread a tape.

Wallensak was a staple of the smaller radio stations.  Good audio and relatively easy with which to work.  You would tape Paul Harvey at 11:05 for playback at 12 noon and other fine chores.

Les Paul did all that stuff before most of these guys your are talking about were born.

When I worked at Bell Sound Recording Studios back in the late 60's we would drive one of the tape decks with a 100watt audio amp using the 100 volt output. We then drove the input of the amp with an audio generator.To achive the desired phasing effect we would then vary the frequency of the audio generator back and forth around 60 cycles. This would vary the speed of the capstan motor and achived the desired phasing effect. This was much better than "riding the rim" of the tape reels.
BTW...the audio amp only powered the capstan motor....not the whole deck.

Flanging tangents notwithstanding, the reason Rick sounds so good on your car speakers is that Phil Spector "secret" of mixing to small speakers...the kind found in cars and tabletop radios.  Take the big studio JBLs and Altec Lansings out of the line and patch in the little fellows.  Rick sounds great.  Today's production values are way too hip for that old school stuff.  That's the Big Hurt. 

Very true Ed....after the final mix, we used to listen to the material on a pair of small 6 inch speakers. In those days most of the pop music WAS listened to on small speakers.