The AM Forum

An article in the 24th May issue of Radio World has an interesting take on audiophoolery. This month's installment of  Steve Lampen's Wired for sound series is titled, "A vacuum-filled brain."  He discusses a set of vacuum-filled speaker cables that sell for $10,000.  They consist of a set of big hoses with all the air pumped out.  Since vacuum is the ultimate dielectric, this makes a "big difference" in the sound you hear.

By definition, the dielectric constant of a vacuum is 1.0.  But the dielectric of plain old air is 1.0167. Much of this audiophoolery nonsense has taken a grain of truth, such as dielectric constant, resistance, capacitance, inductance, impedance and skin effect, to absurdity.  These are real things, but do they really matter at audio frequencies?  Lampen comes up with a perfect analogy: it's like worrying about the aerodynamics of a golf cart or a lawnmower.

http://www.rwonline.com/reference-room/wired-4-sound/2006.05.24-09_rwf_lampen_may_10.shtml

GEEEEZZEE, where in the hell does it end!!
                                                              the Slab Bacon

I'm in the wrong business.

Anybody want to buy a cyrogenically treated 5R4 or 5U4? I promise you it'll increase your "tessitura"!

Regards,
           Joe N3IBX

"A vacuum-filled brain."

Isn't that an oxymoron?

Yes, oxygen free brain!

This is the text of a reply I had already sent to RW mag:

Letter To The Editor:

I must take exception to the derisive tone and title of Steve Lampen’s most recent article, “A Vacuum-Filled Brain.” It is misplaced and not constructive. While I cannot stand in support of the nominal object of his derision – “vacuum filled speaker cables” – that is not the issue. It appears this is an obvious “straw man” for a shotgun aimed at all of “high end audio.” Steve’s usually well-grounded commentary has perhaps gone awry?

It is critical to understand that while there may be a percentage of “snake oil” being touted in various markets, high-end audio being one of them, that not all, and not a majority, and likely not more than a small percentage of all high-end audio products are designed to mislead or prey upon gullible consumers. Most high-end manufacturers have a genuine interest in producing a superior sounding product. Furthermore it costs a fair amount of raw $$ to enter this market – it’s not something anyone would do on a lark.

Furthermore, the requirements for commercial audio installations, broadcast sound, PA/SR sound, home theater and high-end audio are different. They do share many commonalities, but they are not the same in all regards.

It’s fairly obvious that for a vast majority of people out there, that FM stereo, cassette, 8-trk tapes, and before that AM radio and before that Edison cylinders were all “good enough.” Let’s not forget that Mr. Edison at one time did a public demonstration of his acoustical playback equipment that was adjudged at the time as being “indistinguishable” from the original! Later there was the famous demonstration by AR at Grand Central Station in NYC that proclaimed the same! Were they? Not hardly.

When CDs were first becoming popular, audiophiles complained that the “leading edge” was being lost – they were scoffed at. Turns out they were right, 14 bits were not enough… Then some people were complaining about the quality of CD “pressings”, iirc the debate raged for some years – it was impossible! Finally some really smart person determined that there was some sort of clock jitter in a transfer process at the pressing plants… fixed that problem.

The Japanese grabbed up all the low power tube gear they could from the USA, all the Western Electric 300Bs, and speakers – while we reveled in Phase Linear 400s and 700s, Crown 300Bs and the like – were they insane? No, it turns out those silly old things can sound really amazingly good!! (For good scientific and engineering reasons too!)

Today the popular modes are using forms of digital compression, pretty much a step up from the popular modes of the past. But these are clearly still compromises compared to reality or high quality SOTA recordings.

There is no need to open and pour out the can of worms that this sort of topic evolves toward, but a simple analogy might serve to illuminate the topic? Take the example of a highly refined, modern racecar – perhaps an Indy car, an IROC car, a NASCAR vehicle – it’s immediately obvious that there is an extreme, obsessive attention to minute detail, tolerances, adjustments, and very diminishing returns in performance. For example the adjustment of a suspension or the pressure in a tire is a major factor in daily racing. Is it on your daily driver? Clearly it is not. Would it make any difference at all if you paid attention to these factors? Highly unlikely, right?  What’s more, the setups for these different applications are all rather different, and are so sensitive that they vary according to the specific race day conditions.

This is the simple analog is between consumer audio and high-end audio. The goal in high-end audio is to wring out the last drop of “performance.” Consumer audio’s aimed at a somewhat different target.

The fact remains that solid engineering is the bedrock for high-end audio. But that is not the sole criterion. If it were then there would be no differences (good or bad) to be had in audio equipment of any sort, they’d all be identical, like bricks or plastic molded parts? Recent peer reviewed studies (Dr. Earl Geddes) have shown audible differences in low THD/IM amplifiers, and also the ability to not hear differences between some low THD/IM amplifiers and some high(ish) THD/IM amplifiers! In other words there is no direct correlation between typical specs and what we can perceive – the correlation is elsewhere.

That finding explains to a great extent what has been going on in high-end audio, and why there are products that to many appear incredulous and outrageously foolish. Those who have noticed the above finding or been otherwise aware of this have been attempting in various ways to determine, control and affect this elusive factor – thus the propagation of seemingly wild audio products, including cables & wire. It ends up being an art as much as an engineering or scientific endeavor.

The success of these attempts has been highly variable to say the least. Generally speaking there has been no scientific basis or engineering paramater(s) to manipulate that correlates directly to the quality or perception of what is being heard. Results are rather much situation specific and application specific… and of course we’re talking about wringing out the last drop of fidelity and performance.

So, regular “zip cord” is quite sufficient for many situations as a speaker cable, as is your standard import receiver. You can get 90% of the way without much more than that. Going beyond that point you start to find that rather miniscule and seemingly insignificant things begin to have more impact – sort of a “Princess & The Pea” effect, except that it is often quite real, and evident.

Let’s not condemn so quickly… the average person neither needs nor understands extremely high audio performance, the consumer doesn’t need it or want it. For those who desire it, seek it in a variety of ways, engineering and science are definitely included in the process. It reduces to an art that employs technology. Seemingly odd things have results that do not have ready explanations, thus this proliferation of very odd and assorted products that appear to be quite off-the-wall.

Let’s not jump to conclusions, and be gentle in our appraisals.

   _-_-WBear2GCR

It's still an oxymoron.

I don't know squat, just an innocent bystander.

I have only been in the audio industry 35 years.

Guess I have more to learn.

I would challenge anyone, in a valid scientific, double-blind test situation, to be able to tell the difference between "high end" speaker cable and zip cord, at better than 50% accuracy.

C'mon down!

But seriously, the issue of double-blnd testing is deep and not for this forum.

Suffice to say that it is trivial to hear differences in cables of different geometry, since they will measure differently as well. The greater the geometery & materials, the easier it is to hear. This is not in dispute since the differences have been clearly measured.

Where it starts to get dicey is when you put two otherwise identical cables to test that vary only by something like say the material of the conductor itself... but again that's for another forum.

Also, there is an issue of the distortion and resolution of the system which is being used to "test". It is not too difficult to find systems that have inherent distortions and masking effects that make it very difficult to hear any differences - in otherwords everything sounds pretty much the same, like the system sounds. This as opposed to hearing differences in the character of the recordings and recording "space" dictating the character of what is being heard. The latter is rare, the former common.

Making this a bit simpler still - if you don't think there is or can't find a difference between a given tube amp set up as pentode and set up strapped as triode (not clipped), then you can forget entirely about hearing most of these so-called "differences."

          _-_-WBear2GCR

Double blind testing will settle the argument, therefore, it will not be done.... too much money at stake.....   KLC ( worlds leading expert of his opinion)

Double blind testing has been done extensively, fwiw. As has ABX double-blind.

It has thus far settled very little.

The method has its merits but simplistic application of it, as it is usually applied to this problem - there are scads of uncontrolled variables at play - has yet to yield results that can be generalized.

For most people and most systems the entire issue is moot anyhow.



             _-_-WBear2GCR

Hey Bear, You are always pretty quick to defend the perveyers of this garbage, and much of the other audiofollery. Are you, by chance one of the rug merchants that sells this szht??
                                        The Slab Bacon

IMHO, the "sound" of anything....an instrument....a voice....a system....a receiver is so subjective that any technical means devised to find out if a particular thing has that "one true sound" isn't going to work.  It's what the individual hears and how they react to it that's important.

So many times I've auditioned pairs of speakers (remember Tech HiFi's great setup for that?).  In most cases I could tell that both of them were delivering "good sound", e.g. the frequencies were there, there was no distortion, imaging was good, etc., etc.,....but they sounded "different."  But it was impossible to say one was "better" than the other.  The answer to that lies with the individual listener...what they want to listen to.

When the so-called realm of "high end" is entered, it's pretty obvious that many things come into play...a lot of which have nothing to do with the sound.  And there, all bets are off.  Vacuum enclosed speaker wire probably is irrelevant in  99.9% of the applications where the guy with the $$$$$$ sprang for them (BTW...how many have the sold?)...until you come to the people for whom price is the all-important characteristic of what they buy.  (You konw, "He knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.")  Obviously, high-end manufacturers, distributors, shop owners and salespeople, being savvy businessmen will definitely prey upon this attitude.  Looks like some of 'em are making a good living doing that.

I want to remind everyone that we have another bulletin board devoted to audiophoolery. 
It is run by Tom KA1ZGC, and is suffering from inactivity:

http://audiophools.net/phpBB/

Yo Bacochips,

If you could read what I wrote, I did NOT defend any "perveyers of this garbage", now did I??

But some people seem pretty quick to condemn things they may or may not know all that much about, across the board, I wonder why?

            _-_-WBear2GCR

So, why don't y'all rag on that guy who sells overpriced Gold Plated Microphones to the ham community? At least that is on topic for this forum.

As long as ur at it...

  Inquiring minds want to know.

         _-_-WBear2GCR



PS. two other thoughts:

- does anyone really think that the people who can afford to spend THAT MUCH MONEY are either stupid or particularly gullible? I guess a few might be, but most people who have that type of descretionary income are pretty sharp cookies.

- the company that showed that "Vacuum" cable I'd guess did it for the PR - at a show you have to do something to differentiate yrself from the rest, and get press coverage. They probably got the idea from gas filled heliax anyhow... 50/50 someone there is a ham or has a similar background, eh?

- anyone who bought it, probably bought it for the same reason - so that people who saw it would go, WOW! What's that thing??

But at least everyone KNOWS that the gold-plated microphone is a marketing gimmick.  He makes no claim whatever that the gold plating on the microphone gives any kind of (imaginary) accoustical effect.


But $10,000 for a set of speaker cables?  Sounds like anyone who buys into such bullshit has more money than brains indeed.  To paraphrase Lampen, any accoustical difference between "high end" speaker cables and plain old zip cord of adequate size, amounts to about as much as the effect aerodynamics would have on a golf cart or lawnmower.

Actually, I'll be glad to sell someone my bumblebee capacitors for whatever price the market will bear.  Leave it up to the buyer to imagine why they are worth any more than a sack full of orange drops.

I'm curious who originated all that "oxygen free" tessitura bullshit anyway, and how they were able to successfully market it.  I plan to retire soon from my regular job.

Let them spend the bux if that's what floats their boat.  A phool and his money are soon parted, and I'd just as soon share the booty as to let the next guy.  Personally, the biggest problem I have with these idiots is that they have driven up the prices of the tubes, audio transformers and other components that we need to keep our transmitters going, to the point that most people with a legitimate need for this material can't afford what little is left on the market.

There are many people that partake in many different hobbies that they are in over their technical heads. They dont have the technical wherewithall to compete for bragging rights, but they do have a wallet full of money. They want to be one of the "heavy hitters" with the big bragging rights. Since they dont have the technical know how to do it, they are willing to empty their wallets to inflate their egos. Henceforth the PTBarnum factor plays in.

I have seen this in just about every hobbie that I have been involved in in the last few years. If you cant build a faster race car, just brag about the big bux that you spent. It is such a shame thet so many people are willing to piss away their money trying to buy the bragging rights they need to bolster their egos.

If you have any knowledge of electronics and how some of this stuff works, you really get a laugh out of some of the "snake oil" that some of these rug merchants try to sell. Remember that folklore is always born out of ignorance. If you dont know any better, you may be just as likely to believe the same bullszht!!
                                                                                      The Slab Bacon

Hey no prob!

As far as the tube prices, it's a double edged sword, OM! If it wasn't for there being a market for tubes at a "modern" (read: inflated, as in gasoline) prices it's unlikely that the Chinese or Russians would still be making ANY tubes at all!! As it is they are struggling to stay afloat. Count ur blessings on that count.

And, fwiw it was the Japanese and the Guitar nutz who ran the prices up for the most part. Most of the audio people in the USA and Europe got on the tube bandwagon way way late.

No doubt the PT Barnum effect is present across the board for everything. There is no denial there.

What's the point of a hobby? To make people happy. So, who cares how you/they find that?

I don't advocate BS to sell things myself, but if I had my money back for every time I bought something from a ham at a hamfest who said, "yeah it works fine, I just want to get rid of it"... I'd have a nice pile of $$ sitting around. There are greedy, selfish and unscrupulous people everywhere.

We all know that those Gold plated mics must be better otherwise he wouldn't have gone to the trouble of Gold Plating them!![/i] Similar idea. It's implied, he doesn't need to say a word!

And, fwiw, most copper wire is "oxygen free' to begin with. The cool stuff was developed by some Japanese mfr, that was monocrystaline copper wire, drawn from a single copper crystal... that was back in the 80s. Does it make a diff? I dunno, never tried any of that.  ;)  But they spent a lot of time and money to make that happen...

Now regarding this:
That's simply not a valid generalization at all. Its fairly easy to demonstrate, and has been documented by objective and rather detailed measurements in numerous journals that zip cord and other cables can be and often are quite different.  Where the discussion diverges from that point is where is becomes a question if plain old R, L & C are the only effects that play a role in this.

The fact that if your system is analogous to a golf cart or lawnmower, then (as I also noted) it is a 100% true and certain assertion. However, IF you still can hear to 16kHz. or better, AND you have a very low distortion set of speakers, and a source chain to match then you will most definitely hear the effect of many cables (being audibly different) and the differences in things like CD players or DACs with little difficulty, double blind or not. Are they important differences? To many people, not.

         _-_-WBear2GCR

 

As far as good audio reproduction is concerned, good equipment = good reproduction
at least as long as the equipment is operating to its published specifications. You cannot expect quality sound from $2 equipment. No argument here.

However, like you said how good ares the listeners ears? Just like modifications to ham gear, eventually you hit the "point of diminishing return" and this is where the
P.T. Barnum effect starts to play in to things. When you hit this point, is it really worth it to shell out megabucks for accessories that make very minimal differences??

Now, add a lack of technical knowledge and the poor uninformed sucker is left wide open to be raped trying to get that "little extra" performance for his bragging rights.
This leaves the uninformed sucker willing to empty out his wallet to "be the man".
I have seen this in ham radio as well as many other hobbies. I hate to see anyone,
even if they are a sucker get taken advantage of.

And err furthermore, I own and have repaired for others a lot of tube gear. I have yet to use any chineese or russian tubes in anything that I myself own or repaired for others. I still have 1000s of N.O.S. and good used American tubes around here.
I like having running spares for my gear. I laugh my ba's off when I hear an amer or other "vintage gear afficianado" who has a piece of gear that is inoperable because he has to "order a XXXX tube" from AES because his crapped out. Most common tubes are still very reasonably priced if you shop carefully at hamfests. there is no excuse for not having running spares!

                                                                      The Slab Bacon   

Hey Buddly,
                 You forgot one!! Vacuum speaker cables, zip cord, and how about
 00 guage welding cable ;D
                                                          the Slab Bacon ;D ;D     

just make sure the welding cable is NEW... If its been used, all that gas used will contaminate it.....all the electrons coming out of the weld are NOT from the copper, and will Affect the sound .....   klc

Laugh and point all you want. As long as it makes you feel better??

Almost certainly someone with still good hearing (= or > 16kHz.) a low distortion speaker system (rare, btw) and appropriate signal chain and source material is likely to hear some differences between cable A and cable B no matter what the cost. IF the R,L,C is not identical or very very close you can hear it in most cases. Beyond that is where the debate sits at this point in time.

As far as welding cables? Been there, they've been tested, believe it or not. Turns out they are fairly inductive, so yes you can hear them vs. zip cord.

Zip cord has some very specific R, L & C characteristics, fwiw. Not the best really for speakers. And PVC is a fairly leaky dielectric, which has its own issues... albiet seemingly a minor issue.

Keep in mind that when you are playing *most* sound systems you are dealing with what are actually cascaded filter sections, all with various and unknown characteristics + distortions. This includes most importantly the speaker, which is obviously the "worst" of the lot. Out of this mess, which includes everything back to the mic used in the original recording (which is why 2 mic minimalist recordings usuually sound so good?) we're expecting to reproduce some semblance of the original sampling of sound! Everything you've put between the original and your ears has altered it. The trick is to minimize the alterations, and importantly NOT make some that are extremely bothersome and audible. Most home systems are simply stated too crude to have any of this make one iota of difference. In reality, although many audiophiles try very hard to achieve this "holy grail" they fail miserably, regardless of cost or price - as noted here in part because they lack the techinical background required to overcome many of the issues. Conversely, technical background alone will not permit you to achieve the "holy grail" either, since a good portion of it comes under the "art" heading - which is knowing which compromises are acceptable and which are not according to the specific situation at hand. All of these sound systems, be they DIY and cheap or "cost no object" are chuck full of compromises.

Think of it as a continuum of reproduction similar to the range of  photography & painting. None of it is reality, but any example of them is a portrayal of reality. Eg:  What matters on a 3x5 taken with a disposable camera is quite different than a wall size print that will be shown in a museum, for example. The degree of acceptable compromise & detail and where those compromises are is different depending on what you are doing!!

I know it seems stupid, silly and whatnot, but if you can still hear, and you muck about with this stuff for a while, you can't help but notice when something that you know can't possibly have any effect does. And, when you check with other people who know better they confirm your finding. It happens all the time. People are not all delusional or stupid or ignorant who do the audio hobby.

            _-_-WBear2GCR



PS. anyone who gives me notice, and is coming this way is welcome to stop by and draw their own conclusions. I've got zip cord available, or bring ur own. And three flavors of CD players to listen to as well. You can report back no matter what you decide. I don't mind either way.

Of the many parables of MURPHY'S LAW that is coming to mind here:

"never argue with a fool, because sooner or later no one will be able to tell the difference"


Always keep this mathematical equation in mind when evaluating speaker cables:

"the angle of the dangle does not always equal the arc of erection, but the mass of the ass stays constant!"
                                              The Slab Bacon

Bacobits,

Your approach here isn't very nice.
Sorry that you feel so insecure and inadequate.

        _-_-WBear2GCR

Who, me, feel insecure and inadequate ;D ;D Not a chance! Like Popeye the sailor said:
"I am what I am and thats all what I am!"  Remember that I'm the Slab Bacon "With the fat meat shakin!" all 270 lbs of it! I am not insecure, or even a little bit thin skinned!

If I  " put one across your bow" I dont expect you to walk away hurt and dejected, thats no fun. I fully expect you to fire one right back, thats the fun of it all. You definately dont know me at all!

You should use that callsign and get on the air once in a while and meet some of these people that hang out here! Many of these people here know me personally, I am an ornery S.O.B. with a rather twisted sense of humor. Remember that real men can always fire one back!! And it is statring to look like you're "On the ropes"
                                             
                                                               the Slab Bacon

Whereas your approach is full of it, but nice (at least up until that remark). I'm glad you are feeling secure and adequate in your opinions. I agree he could have phrased it more gently, but he's right. And you deflect questions with ad hominem attacks, or bloviation. "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit", eh? Perhaps you can also hear the difference with one of these  power cords (http://www.audiophilia.com/hardware/ma14.htm). You're preaching to the wrong choir here.

Meanwhile, The mass of the ass is indeed constant, proportional to the heat of the meat  8)

-Charles
(Enjoying the sound of my Phase Linear 400 and 16 ga. zip-cord speaker cables!)

Gentlemen,

are you sure electrons really exist and travel across the welding wire?
In some applications carpuscular model does not work so physics use wave model. Who knows, may be audiofool model is valid as well...

At least, I can clearly hear difference between very simple and very complex amplifiers; even when complex amplifier has much less harmonics measured it sounds worse subjectively.

My theory is, triode distortions are similar to native distortiuons of a human perceprion apparatus so we don't hear them. But we hear well distortions that are unnatural for us even if they are very small.

I don't get it.

As someone once axed, isn't the ac house wiring from the outlet back to the breaker box simple #14 Romex in most cases? And, the amplifier's power transformer uses thin magnet wire for the primary. How would a fat, specially designed power cord in series with that help?

And, aren't most speaker coils wound with thinner magnet wire? And, how about the audio transformer's secondary wire? How would a fat, specially designed speaker cable in series with that help?

Inquiring minds wanna know...

T

This is easy! :)

If I tell you that when you are thirsty, feel sweating, you feel a hot air around, and know you can open a bottle of beer you love, you know how that bottle with testy beer looks, it feels cold in hands, and when you open it you hear whispering of bubbles in the bottle... You smell a beer.... You want to start drinking it... When you are thirsty... Do you like it? :)

Does it make you to feel anything?

The same, if you suggest to your happy buyer that afrer 23 and half hours of listening of right music through a magic power cord you sold him he'll feel, taste and smell the music better he WILL!!! He will tell the same to others amplifying your suggestions.

It is called hypnosis. Nothing special... Both are happy... One has money, other has a magic cable and feels happier listening to the same music... You've just sold him a happiness he could not achieve without your help. Actually, without your positive suggestion...

It's only as good as the weakest link.

The Slab Bacon said:
Which is inversely propotional to the bounce of the ounce in turn causes better cushion to the pushin'! ;)

And don't forget the BREAKIN PERIOD.  Remember, when you first hook up the speaker cable and power cord, you are apt not to hear much difference because the cable has not been properly BROKEN IN.  But after several hours of use, the electrons flowing through the cable alter the molecular structure of the copper, and the sound just keeps getting better and better until the difference becomes ASTOUNDING.

Don't have the patience to wait till the cable is broken in naturally?  Then...

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/Magazine/equipment/0404/audioharma.htm

Price: standard version $649; pro version $779. Plus $12 insured shipping within the continental U.S.

The position of the speaker cables in relation to the earths rotation will effect the length of the conductors, thereby changing the sonic quantities of the conductors. Parallel to the rotation will not effect the length of the conductor(only the width, ie, cross sectional dia.). Conductors facing in the direction of the earths rotation are reduced in length ( A. Einstein did the work..... not only was he a brilliant scientist, but look at his contribution to fashion in the 50's and 60's. Truly an example of a multi-modal summit complex individual.).    klc

Also, if we put speakers pointing to wrong directions than musicians in the studio we'll get the wrong soundstage!  ;D

Ummm, no.

But thanks for asking?

The people who tend to be into high-end more often than not gravitate toward classical and jazz. There are numerous labels that specialize in hyper-clean minimalist mic technique and recording gear.

As far as listening to those multi-track mono panpotted compressed monstrosities, sometimes it is fun to hear the distortion in the vocals exactly the way the engineers intended it - a wonderfully sad example of that is that first album "Blue" of that young talented blonde country singer (can't recall her name...) - the vocals are horribly processed and sibilant. The performance, incredible.

But, otoh, live audience recordings (bootlegs friends) of various electric acts come back *very nice* on a clean system... the better, the better...

Pop stuff? Eh, who cares... you guys listening to that stuff anyhow??

Listen boys, friggin Sinatra on LP of the highest caliber playback system will knock ur socks off... and I'm not even a Sinatra fan.

JJ, you should KNOW that "thin magnet wire" in a transformer is seen as a lumped inductance, as opposesd to a large series resistance. The 14 ga house wiring is definitely a limiting factor in terms of amplifier performance IF you draw power on peaks that is at all significant. Look, my 180 watt/ch amplifier has ~4kva of power transformers and only 500,000 ufd of filter caps which sit on solid copper buss bar, with directly mounted 400 amp Hexfed diodes. (stupid design, eh?) With a low Z load on the end of the amp, there is significant peak current drawn from the line. I run a 240vac line to an 8kva iso/step down tranny to power it. It would be better to run direct from 240, but then it would be tough to take the amp anywhere, should I want to do so. Can you hear it? Yep. When? On creshendos of massive choral pieces, quite easy. I have recordings where mere "mortal" amps just lose their focus and soundstage on those peaks entirely... quite obvious when you hear an amp that shurgs it off... and fwiw, the primary wire on these power tranny's is heavier than 14 ga. (been a while since I looked). For the unit that uses 4 stacked toroids, the sum of the gauge is ~10ga. I use SPC 10ga for all the power & speaker wiring in the unit.

The common joke in the audio community is those 5.1 "200 watt per channel" amps with a 16 ga. line cord. Yeah right - now where's the snake oil??

Putting this roughly in ham radio terms, this is like running a BIG ASS BROADCAST TRANSMITTER & a 200ft Tower vs a DX-60 & a G5RV up 30 ft. Most home stereos are DX-60s or unmodded rice boxes, they're not even PLATE MODULATED RIGS!! You guys who are running good Plate Modulated Rigs are roughly the equivalent to the average high-end audio guy. The guys who build their own rigs are like the audio DIYers...

Fact of the matter is that those who are into ridicule don't know much of anything about what they are ridiculing, or have had negative or limited experiences, and closed minds too boot. Sad.

I'm trying to tell you guys that there is something to all this, and that an awful lot of it is valid and NOT BS.
And, it's a lot of fun besides.
Plus <shock> tubes often beat the crap out of solid state stuff.
So, what's to complain about?

          _-_-WBear2GCR

I believe in the old saying: "A fool and his money will soon part"

Regards,
           Joe N3IBX

Bear,

Just curious what the scientific basis is for the arrows on higher end speaker wire and interconnects?  If I hook them up the wrong way will all the energy be reflected back and cause my amplifier to blow up?  I really wish Belden would put those arrows on their coax cable.  I almost hooked up some LMR-600 the wrong way once.

Jim W1UK



As far as listening to those multi-track mono panpotted compressed monstrosities, sometimes it is fun to hear the
JJ, you should KNOW that "thin magnet wire" in a transformer is seen as a lumped inductance, as opposesd to a large series resistance. The 14 ga house wiring is definitely a limiting factor in terms of amplifier performance IF you draw power on peaks that is at all significant. Look, my 180 watt/ch amplifier has ~4kva of power transformers and only 500,000 ufd of filter caps which sit on solid copper buss bar, with directly mounted 400 amp Hexfed diodes. (stupid design, eh?) With a low Z load on the end of the amp, there is significant peak current drawn from the line. I run a 240vac line to an 8kva iso/step down tranny to power it. It would be better to run direct from 240, but then it would be tough to take the amp anywhere, should I want to do so. Can you hear it? Yep. When? On creshendos of massive choral pieces, quite easy. I have recordings where mere "mortal" amps just lose their focus and soundstage on those peaks entirely... quite obvious when you hear an amp that shurgs it off... and fwiw, the primary wire on these power tranny's is heavier than 14 ga. (been a while since I looked). For the unit that uses 4 stacked toroids, the sum of the gauge is ~10ga. I use SPC 10ga for all the power & speaker wiring in the unit.

          _-_-WBear2GCR

Mikey,
         You have to be very careful in thet area as you could fall prey to the inverse square law!

If the mass of the ass is insufficient to push the arc of erection, the arc of erection then becomes inversely proportional to the heat of the meat an the whole situation deteriorates rapidly!
                                               The Slab Bacon

Arrows point to the best direction for the fastest break-in. Connecting wrong side you will defenitely break-out your transmitter cable.

You have to be very careful when installing the connectors on your coax cable,
If you dont solder up all of the holes on the connector, the SWRs will start to leak out and eventually the coax will be unuseable.
                                                           The Slab Bacon

If you use rosin core solder, will not that effect the sound of violins, and other string instrawments etc???  dont they use a different form of rosin??   My rosin is grown on the reverse side of hills so the sun will not overstress the tree. This allows for some brillance on the higher portion of the hill, but yet provides for a rich bottom end.    klc

Slab-a-Dabba-Doo,Mike(y),
                                   This only proves two things:
                                 
                                    "Tis not the size of the wand, but rather the magic it makes"

                                     "Brave is the man who'll fight with a sword
                                      or climb Mt. Everest in snow
                                      But the bravest of all owns a '34 Ford
                                      and will try for 6,000 in low"

Mod-U-Later,
                 Joe Cro N3IBX

When the compressor in my central air conditioner trips on, my momentary a.c. line voltage sags noticeably.  The lights flicker dim, and I can see the pointer of the  line voltage meter on my transmitter jerk downwards.  Even a $100,000 line cord would do nothing to correct this.  I have had the power company out here a couple of times, and all they  have said is that they put their instruments on the line and that the power line  regulation is up to their specs, and they suggested that I call an electician to check out my house wiring (as if anything could be wrong with the house wiring that would cause the voltage output of their pole transformer to sag under load).

Despite the bullshit one may read in audiophool publications, the only possible way the power cord, a.c. outlet fixtures or even the house wiring could have any effect whatever on the sound of any kind of amplifier, would be due to power supply voltage sag at load peaks.  If you are really using a half-farad of filter capacitance with a tube type amplifier, I doubt if the voltage is going to sag measurably, given the maximum current the tubes are capable of drawing at full saturation, unless maybe you are running several hundred sweep tubes in parallel, CB style.

I thought those multi-tens of thousand $$$ high-end tube type amplifiers all ran single-ended parallel tubes (usually triodes) in class-A.  By definition, a class-A amplifier draws a steady plate current regardless of the signal it is amplifying.  If you are pushing that amplifier to the point that the plate current increases on peaks, especially to the point of causing the DC supply voltage to sag, you have already generated severe distortion, and all that the $10,000 speaker cable is going to do is transfer that distorted waveform to the speakers, intact.

It is precisely the kinds of amplifiers that audiophools avoid like the plague: solid state power amplifiers and push-pull tube type amplifiers running class AB2 and class-B, that draw substantially more current from the power supply during audio peaks, compared to what they draw during idle periods.

If I were really worried that much about voltage sag on audio peaks, instead of using a half-farad of filter capacitance, I would purchase a bank of car batteries and wire them all in series and keep them charged with a trickle charger.  Let's see.  If I bought a bunch of VT4-C/211's at $100 apiece to use in the amplifier, I would need about 1250 volts on the plates.  It would take 91 fully charged "12v" car batteries (at 13.8 volts each), to deliver that voltage. Naturally, an audiophool wouldn't want to use anthing less that the very best available car battery for this purpose, so I checked on the price of the top quality maintenance-free replacement battery for a Cadillac automobile with the largest size engine, and the price at local stores for a Mega-Tron Plus - 85 Months - 800 CCA (http://www.ibsa.com/estore/search.asp?N=21+4294574453+2147384848+4294574522&Ntx=&Ntk=&Ntt=&Ns=product+Type%7c0||Rank|1&Nu=Part+Number&mscssid=LSBK6EUSCNX39K9XSCFP65HG4G353376&js=1)  is listed @ $119 each.  91 of those batteries would come to $10,829 - about the same price as the speaker cables.  You could homebrew a 1250 volt trickle charger for under $100, and the terminal connectors required for seriesing up the batteries would run a few hundred $$$ as well.  The charger wouldn't need to deliver but a few milliamps at that voltage to maintain charge, if kept on the batteries 24/7.

Of course, if the amplifier used a few puny 2A3's or 300B's, you would need only about 400 volts, or 29 batteries @ $3451.  Quite a bit cheaper!

In addition to concerns about the A.C. line cords and "hospital grade" outlet fixtures, what about the DC cable that runs from the power supply filter cap(s) to the output transformer?  I have heard a lot about "high end" speaker cable and power cords, but nothing about "high end" under-the-chassis hookup wire for building amplifiers.  Maybe welding cables would work for this purpose, but I suspect there would be a problem soldering it to the transformer terminals.  Does anyone sell "oxygen-free" copper hookup wire, with "high-end" insulation? 

Let's hear the debate over whether it's best to use stranded or solid hookup wire.  For DC wire leads with the minimum  self-inductance, I would recommend Litz wire... Ready for the next audiophool ripoff fad, genuine N.O.S. Llitzwire (you supply your own insulating sleeve) @ $100+ per foot (price will vary according to gauge)?

Don,
      I agree with everything you stated in your last post. One thing however, remains to be constant. Regardless of the market, there are those who equate cost with performance and quality. When one believes to be deficient in knowledge, he compensates by throwing more money at something. There is a certain validity to that theory - to a point where it becomes absurd.

Let me pose this rhetorical question: If someone would spend the exhorbitant sum for "oxygen free copper wire" or "cyrogenically treated" high vacuum rectumfryer tubes, he is more or less forced to claim their superiority rather than admit defeat. Nobody wants to look foolish in the eyes of their peers. I repeat the statement I made earlier: 'A fool and his money will soon part".

Unfortunately, those of us that have rigs that use 2A3's in their speech amplifier, or other audiophool type tubes pay the price for what some people believe to be superior audio. I could give a damn about whether the tube was a 2A3 or 6L6, etc etc as long as it works in a circut.

                             Burma Shave

I know of a little pill that has the same effect.

Joe said:
Don't for get those fancy dancy 'tube anti-resonance rings'. They will make sure that you amplify and pass along the proper harmonic, not the ones created by self-oscillation of the tube, quivering in the socket!

Wonder if anyone has gone into thye business of blessing the cables. I mean blessed cable sounds a whole lot better than non-blessed cable.

    then there is the "laying on of the hams"

I recall Timtron telling a story of working on the transmitter for a bible beater up in KY.  After he had finished working on the rig and ready for the smoke test, the owner said, "wait a minute.  Before you do that, we have to bless the transmitter."


Do you pronounce that "bless-ed" or "blest?"

so what did Tim do ? poor red stuff on it??

I think he replied, "You gotta be shittin' me."

Bob and John both have excellent ideas, but they don't work for some people. Some won't think they are broken so won't take pills. Others prefer to believe in scientific miracles rather than in God's miracles.

By the way, there are great explanations for selling some kind of cables, like Don suggested for example. The explanation is simple. The atom model is called planetar. But real planets are never collapsed together, so we may assume that neutrons and protons are also dancing in pairs on own orbits, and electrons dance around them! Also, all of them are rotating around own axes, so If we have wrong cable they will rotate in sporadic directions making the sound fuzzed! But if we take a good wire they all will rotate in the single direction. But if the current will rotate around the wire the path for the sound will be too long!
But if we take a litz especially made such a way nuclearn particles rotate to the same direction, but each wire is thinner, so the part is shorter, and because of many thin straids they will provide a wide path to the sound!

Do you like the idea, Don? :)

 

If the  e spin is in one direction, will not the wire twist??? or worse, fall over on the side?..

If will, but with very high frequency! :)

For example, if Don's litz twists with thousands of teraHerts the sample rate is apriori higher than the best digital processor ever made has! ;)

We can divide that frequency by the highest sample rate for Hi-End CD records and show the oversampling rate. :D

We should use some formulae, but not too much; buyer must feel he is clever and understands the theory!

Tolly does Tulie .... I like it.....  klc

Hi All:

I have not read the whole thread, so I apologise if I missed something. Here are my thoughts:

As one who works in broadcasting and loves audio, I have found over the years that any real improvement in audio recording and reproduction can be measured by modern test equipment. The sonic differences between the $10k speaker cable and zip cord cannot be measured for it's audio characteristics (other than resistance, capacitance and inductance, which when driven with any real sorta amp will not be affected by these small numbers. i/e any changes will be outta the audio passband). Julian Hirsch of Stereo Review did numbers tests and A/B/X tests between zip cord and expensive speaker cable in the 1970-s and no one could tell the difference.

I have heard the original Edison accoustical player and I am still extremely impressed by the low distortion and wide frequency response of the entirely accoustical method. Extremely good for what it is.

Many people who buy thos audio phoolery stuff are not technically savvy. I was at an audio store about 5 years ago and had to bite my toungue when the salesman sold a roll of expensive speaker cable to a doctor. In the end the salesman told the doctor to connect the outside part of the roll of cable to the amp as the electrons flow better in that direction.

Ayup....

73,
Dan
W1DAN

That is why some audiophool speaker cable has those little arrows stamped on the jacket.

If I went to that doctor as a patient, I would hope he had a better knowledge of biology than he does of physics.  I believe doctors are required to take basic and intermediate courses in all the sciences during their pre-med training.  If he just memorised enough of his physics to pass the exam and then flushed the knowledge, I wonder how much medical knowledge he flushed after taking the test.

Another important factor in audiophoolery are the types of fuses you run in your equipment. I hope you are not using standard everyday common fuses !! If you are they could be destroying your listening experience. Click below for some REAL fuses for REAL audiophool quality listening.

http://www.fatwyre.com/FATWYRE/fatwyre/featuredprods.html

Why pay 44 cents for a 5 X 20 mm. fuse when you can pay $25 ?

Nice find John.  From Fatwyre's site :


"Now you can purchase true audiophile grade fuses:

* hand made and tested in Germany

* gold over silver end caps

* pure silver wiring

* ceramic casing, rather than glass, for better resonance characteristics.

Beware of overpriced commercial fuses with nothing more than gold-plated end caps and nice packaging!

All common fuse values are available in fast and slow blow types.
See Available types on the Fuse Order Form.

Description
Retail 

"Large" 6.3 x 32mm (1.25")  $29.95

"Small" 5 x 20mm (.75")  $24.95" 

I dont believe someone would really say something as stupid as this.........but Im sure there are folks out there that gobble this sh%$ up.......... ???

My oxygen free brain hurts!!!!...  :o :o

So exactly howdo you 'test' a fuse.

Anyhow if you're really serious about eliminating the effects of a fuse, just don't use one.  Any fuse will have some resistance and thus effect (or is that affect) the signal in some way.  Assuming your not in a 'live' - and therefore  not audiophile,  suituation with pepole wiring speakers up live or pulling out cables or rolling over them with 1/2 ton racks, what excatly is the fuse going to protect against ?
                                                 Ian

you know, its a shame. With audio grade wall receptacles, oxygen free speaker wire, audio grade fuses and cryogenically treated toobz, it makes you kinda wonder what kind of "snake oil" some unscrupulous rug merchant is going to come up with next.
Where in the hell does it end??

Is it all greed? If some of the consumers of this junk were better informed, maybe things would be different. If people knew some of the science and theory of their hobbies, I feel there would be a lot less of the "P.T.Barnum factor" involved.

I have seen this phenomenon in many other hobbies that I have been involved in over the years. Pepole should look for the performance of these items to be substantiated by fact and not heresay (like "double blind tests") this basically becomes something not unkike folklore. It is a shame that many people fall prey to this kind of crap.

There used to be some kind of "truth in advertising" laws, but I guess that they re not enforced anymore. Come on, $29.95 for a friggin fuse! Lets face it, that is snake oil!!

Many times little things can help, but eventually you get to the point of "diminishing return". At that point you are basically starting to piss your money away anyway. Anything that is left to speculation usually cant be substantiated in fact. also the power of suggestion definately plays heavily into anything left to speculation.

The bottom line is that people involved in a hobby should learn the "nuts and bolts" theory that makes it work so they CANNOT be taken advantage of by others!

NOW, WHAT CAN WE INVENT NEXT THAT WE CAN SELL TO THE AUDIOFOOLS!!

                                                      The Slab Bacon

electron coherers......the electrons do not take a straight path down the wire. What they do is bounce side to side, like a pinball. This introduces sub audible harmonics which effect the low frequency response of the speaker cores. Feromagnetic assemblies strategerlyl placed allong the length of the speaker wire will reduce this degredation of sound.The material also helps form "speed up lanes" which help heaver electons arive at the same time.   As this is a work in progress, firm prices are not yet available. However, different levels of protection are....The General level of protection is $7.50 per linyear foot, (min 15 feet), advanced $16.00 (min 20 feet)and the Superior Extra $20.07  (min 25 feet). Please send your orders, allong with the initial down payment. Pay Pill accepted, allong with personal cheques.      klc   ps see our add for bas vio strings, made from genuine aircraft steel.....

Oh dear...

Fools calling fools fools? Funny actually.

Ok, Fuses ARE non-linear devices. You can measure them. It's published in serious engineering journals. Ergo, audible in this case.

In case you don't think so, put one in an open fuse holder, run an audio signal that peaks near the rated value of the fuse and watch it. Report back.

Now, I am NOT defending $25 German fuses.
Fwiw, I don't use any fuses in my speaker lines or my amplifier rails.
Think of it like a Funny Car, if you blow the engine, you blow the engine, but look at the horsepower!! ;D

(fuses are intended mostly to prevent FIRE, not protect equipment from failure...)

Next.

Julian Hirsch never found *anything*. Those early 70's articles are a joke. Back then TIM wasn't even well understood. The State-Of-The-Art has come a long way since then. There is no doubt that R, L & C are the dominating factors in cables, and there is no doubt that variations in RLC absolutely can and do cause clearly audible and measureable variations in amplifier output. Degree plays a role, but surprisingly small variations are measureable and in a really clean low distortion system without masking effects can and are audible. Important to you or the average joe? Probably not. Doesn't mean it is BS.

There is no doubt that there are products that are questionable, and people who put out BS products, but you're scratching around the periphery and condemning the entirety. That's where the train is off the tracks here.

So called "directional cables" often have screens or shields that are either connected at one end or otherwise terminated in a non standard way. Again, you can most likely hear some differences when the direction is reversed. There is also the scheme where the shield is DC biased up some voltage. Think about what effect it has on the dielectric with respect to the AC signal that is impressed on it. OR maybe that's not why it can be heard at all... maybe it is some other scientific reason. But, you can hear the stupid thing.
Anyone can, pretty much.

And more:

Audio salesmen.
For the most part I have no regard for that breed.
I have NEVER found a competent audio store, salon, or salesman in this field.
Usually ignoramuses of the highest order.
You have to be in order to sell that stuff.
And, I'm talking about the "normal" stuff too, not just the high-end stuff.

Don't use them as representative of the "high-end" audio industry.

Also:

Broadcast, TV, Radio, PA/SR, Recording Studios, and even Home Theater are not the same as high-end, since the aims, goals and targets are different in important ways. There is an overlap and similarity, but nothing more. You can't use those same criteria for high-end. There is cross pollination of course.



Here is what some DIYers who are into tubes do:

http://www.americanwired.com/news/oswaldsmill/oswaldsmill.html
http://www.oswaldsmill.com/tasting.shtml

Take a look at some of the more finished diy amps shown... what sort of $$ value would you place on them?? Just curious.

This is fairly typical of the toobe diyer community.

There is also a solid state diyer community that tends to build very complex, high-performance, high-power things, and super slick low level stuff...

For a really big overview of high-end try   http://www.enjoythemusic.com

You'll see some rather exotic things... and some mundane things.

Open ur minds, take a look around.
Othewise you might be an old stuck-in-the-mud  fuddy duddy on an antique radio and nothing more...

        _-_-WBear2GCR

A good shot with the right round smack dab into the center of that pole pig would get them out there to replace ur pole piggie pretty quick... a little good talkin to the engineer in charge, and maybe some other motivating "schmeer" might get you a new, bigger pole piggie?? Dunno.

Obviously, the line cord will have nil effect on what happens off your pole. Duh.
As I said, I run a 240 volt AC line to an 8kv LOCAL iso/step down tranny to run my amp.
(Did you bother to check my website to see what it is?)


Good try Sherlock, but there is another issue as well. That is transmitted and reflected current pulses to and from the equipment to other equipment as well as RFI pick up and transmission. These too might be playing a role. So, not the "only" way... eh?



Shooting from the hip again?
Not a tube type amp.
Nor would you need or want that sort of capacitance with a tube amp. The equivalent Joule value would be a function of the B+, would it not?


This is the sort of stuff that torques me off.
You have a computer, LOOK!! It doesn't take that long to find out what is what on almost any topic these days. It's absurd.
Figure out what is going on, before stepping waist deep into it with pronouncements of authority.
Ok?
Is that asking too much?





Another statement that misses the intended target?
While it is true about the current drawn, FAR more audiophiles use solid state amps than tubes, that's first. And, second, as I explained, current draw is very likely not the reason why "power cables" sound different in the first place. They tend to be rather noticeable on low level CD players, transports and DACs. Which tends to bolster the noise/RFI idea.



Been done.
The danger of having batteries of the type you suggest in the home is significant.
So, while it is a potential DIY project, not a commercial product.
Sealed, Gel Cells might fly.
And there is at least one company that came forward with battery powered preamps and at least one amp.
It has some merits to be sure.


You have to pay attention, and read what is written.
(repeating) I use 10ga SPC (silver plated copper) with Teflon (PTFE) insulation. Known as Type E or EE wire for my power and speaker connections in my solid state amps. I use lesser gauges elsewhere of the same wire, or in some cases pure silver wire with a FEP jacket (mostly low level stuff, like phono or mic).

Are you still melting & breathing old style PVC insulated hook up wire??
I'm not. :)
 


Not much of a debate here.
Litz is highly regarded. (difficult to strip, solder and work with, in general)
There is at least one company that builds inductors with Litz. They measure better.
Another few build inductors with ribbon conductors.

There are interconnects and speaker cables made with Litz and with ribbon.

Any other questions?

Really suggest taking some time to see what is going on first before jumping all over this topic.

            _-_-WBear2GCR



PS. Fwiw, I said before that the primary purpose of things like those silly vacuum "speaker cables" is to generate HYPE & PR... get noticed. It probably is just a piece of dressed up Heliax or similar gas filled coax... and it is atypical of most of the high-end[/b].

OH Dear...................................... is right! Come on Bear, it looks like you are on the ropes and trying to come back swinging.

Some of the stuff might actually have some effect, but it is way past the point of diminishing return.Why do you think we refer to you guys as "audiofools"??  because you guys get so wrapped up in the bragging rights that you forget that you are only a human.

Unfortunately some really take advantage of those who are prone to "folklore".

A fuse, come on, as long as it offers no resistance or voltage drop at the operating current level of the circuit will be transparent. A fuse is for all intents and pourposes a friggin piece of wire. As ling as its current load is not enough to make it heat up, how can it not be linear??

As far as a line cord is concerned, again as long as it is up to the voltage and current load that it is asked to carry it should be a non issue. If the piece of equipment that it is powering has a properly designed power supply, and that power supply is properly isolated and filtered, and up to the load requirements, the line cord should be another non issue.

By the looks of your writings, i can see that you are very passionate about this audiofool stuff. thats ok-fine, but this is a ham radio site and most of us think that people like you are nuts, as you may well feel the same way about us.

Being different is part of the fun of being alive. Remember that opinions are like an a$$hole, everybody has one. You seem to be wound up like the barking dog next door, and it is fun poking you with the proverbial stick.

You seem to be wound up and "on the ropes"........................................
Give it up around here as most are not audiofools, at least not to the point that you are. We all enjoy good sounding audio, but have enough common sense not to empty out our wallets looking for those "subtle nuances".

poke...........poke................poke ;D
                                                         The Slab Bacon

 ;D ;D ;D ;D

"You'll never go broke under-estimating the intelligence of the American public."


 :D

But, seriously, there's one factor that you're all overlooking, the ever present and dangerous SKIN EFFECT.  Hmmmmm....how much would that add to $10,000 speaker wires?  Or would that be a $20,000 "upgrade" soon after you get the cheaper wires?

And, no matter how good  or expensive your wires are, always mount your amp above your speakers so that the sound flows down, not up.  Makes a big difference in the sound.

And by all means don't have any metal knobs on any controls.  Use only non-resonant WOODEN knobs.

The skin effect can have an effect on the wood, though. ;)

Hmmm.............. I wuz wonderin when someone wuz gonna come up with audio grade knobs!!  There Ya go!!

Buy it now, for the descriminating audiophile only: NEW AUDIO GRADE KNOBS PRODUCE THE FINEST TESSITURA...........just $399.67 ea

only while supplies last.......................

Quality audio knobs will only set you back 485 clams.

http://www.referenceaudiomods.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=NOB_C37_C

You might want to give these a shot on that Ranger for my neighbor in Jersey.    ;D



Sam  /  KS2AM

Oh C'mon! Be serious!    :o   ::)


Now, gee I thought you'd started to make a sensible and calm statement. Ya let me down.
Yes, we are talking about the realm of "diminishing returns."
The same spot that race cars, race boats, photo gear, fishing gear, heck you name it gets into...


yes, so?
That just doesn't mean it is ALL that... which is what the jist of most of those squawking so loudly about this topic here appear to be saying.


I think you can look it up... an article on it is in The Loudspeaker & Headphone Handbook by Borthwick, iirc. Nice graphs of non-linear fuse behavior. Quite so.  It offers both resistance and Vdrop that is proportional to voltage and current. Like a filament. The harder you hit it the worse it gets.

So, shall we use say a 30 amp fuse on a 3 amp line? Now THAT would be linear, I suspect. But, wait! Oh no!!  :o That won't PROTECT US!! Help help help!


Indeed. SHOULD is the operative word.
Whaddya think, you think anyone wanted any of this stuff to have any effect?
It just didn't happen like that.

People did things that everyone knows shouldn't and couldn't possibly have any effect at all. (usually inadvertently or by accident) But, something did happen, and the effect was people being incredulous and scratching their heads over it. This happened as two things occured in audio: 1) very excellent source got readily available to more people and 2) distortion in amps & speakers was reduced, and these became more commonly available. Both happened (generally speaking) after say 1985 - 1990...

Some of it got figured out and reduced to engineering and/or science.
Some has not yet yielded.
Some of it is as you have noted, utter and complete nonsense.

But in an awful large number of places, with gear that is designed into the ground, and has no obvious flaws of any sort, a stupid line cord can and does change something that you can hear.

Quite frankly, it pisses me off quite a bit when it happens when you don't want it to... but it certainly does happen fairly often.

Come by, I can demo it all day long. You can be a blind monkey and you'd be hard pressed to miss it.



Us?  Who is US white man?
I've been a ham for probably as long as you have...
Never ever been a CBer either. Pleh.


Ur easily amused, dear Pigmeat.
Suggest spending some time doing something else that is more productive?


Well the nice part, is that Ham Radio and DIY audio have a whole lot of commonality, not the least of which is building things and using tubes. Obviously modulators and amps are pretty darn similar.

Rather than turning up your noses at the WHOLE thing, and taking a few rather silly things (like vacuum speaker cables), the only thing that I'm objecting to is the BROAD BRUSH that is being used. If ur wrong and off base, I'm going to say so.  And, also, trying to turn y'all onto something that is pretty cool and neat. So, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. 

           _-_-WBear2GCR

I unserstand that there are such things as conniseurs of fine quality audio reproduction equipment and that is fine. There are big differences in the quality of various audio components that can make a definate difference when listening. That's fine and I can fully understand and appreciate sensible hi fi audio fanaticism.  BUT..... it can reach a point of stupidity when dealing with non-scientific gobbledegook or, measurable quantities that at best so miniscule that no haman ear will discern even the slightest difference.

Please, $29.00 fuses are not going to make a difference. Ceramically encased fuses are not going to improve "resonace" in any such a way that you or I are going to notice. If making such infinitesimal changes to the incoming power system is going to mnake a notable difference in audio quality then the audiophools are going to have to start replacing their entire house wuiring infrastructure and then start convincing the power company to change their entire infrastructure to enhance the audiophools experience.

There is such a thing about sensiblity in acheiving quality audio. And then there is the art of selling snake of to people who have a  lot of money to spend so that they can acheive a certain level of bragging rights.  Most people on this board have the knowledge and technical experience to recognize audio quackery when they see it. They know that $29.00 ceramic fuses are not going to do squat to improve audio quality. The people selling this garbage are merely con artists. Dependant upon the ignorance of some in order to get them to part with their money.   I and most knowledgeable people on this board are not going to spend $29.00 on a fuse or $600.00 for a "cable cooker".  Unfortunately there are many out there who lack the knowledge and understanding and will gladly plop down $29.00 for a fuse or $600.00 for a "cable cooker". Sad but true.

Yes but you are forgetting these $29.oo/each fuses are  encased in CERAMIC and they sound better because the "ceramic resonates better than glass".

Now, I am confused. If I replace  the fuses in a piece of audiophool gear do I also need to replace the fuses in my house too ? Also, which one resonates better, an automatic circuit breaker or a ceramic fuse ??

All this audiophool stuff about fuses has con-fused me.

Hi Bear and all:

Thanks for all the input. To counter what you stated below:

"Julian Hirsch never found *anything*. Those early 70's articles are a joke. Back then TIM wasn't even well understood. The State-Of-The-Art has come a long way since then. There is no doubt that R, L & C are the dominating factors in cables, and there is no doubt that variations in RLC absolutely can and do cause clearly audible and measureable variations in amplifier output. Degree plays a role, but surprisingly small variations are measureable and in a really clean low distortion system without masking effects can and are audible. Important to you or the average joe? Probably not. Doesn't mean it is BS."

In my oipinion Julian Hirsch was one of the last true audio engineering consumer equipment testers that exist. Him and Len Feldman. They're both gone now. I find that today's "reviews" have no numbers and tout the audio sound of a piece of gear with adverbs instead of true numbers. Junian used a Sound technology test set, which is nothing to sneeze at. He knew his numbers and they are solid to this day. In this article (late 70's early 80's) he also used A/B/X blind testing. In both the numbers he took and the blind tests there was no difference between the cheap zip cord and the expensive speaker wire. TIM was known then to be from many things like amplifier bandwidth limiting with negative feedback around it. I agree today the numbers achieved are alot better than then, but Julian measured them accurately.

I agree that RLC can affect things in the audio range...like runing 2000 feet if Belden 8451 with a 600 ohm source will cause HF loss due to capacity. However I feel that with an audio amp designed to run an 8 ohm speaker, 10 feet of zip cord will have maybe a few hundred PF of capacity. At 8 ohms the 3db point is above the audio range. I run a Hafler 200w power amp with the really thin radio shack zip cord into a set of Ohm B speakers. Passive preamp with an SACD player.

As far as recording is concerned, their goal is to faithfully record a performance. Same as yours. They spend $$ for better recording gear all the time. I am truly amazed at the sound quality that was obtained even in the early 1940's. That tells me that basic engineering laws and numbers worked then.

As far as the audio salesman I witnessed, he owned the store for about 25 years. He knew alot about audio and electronics. It was BS and I almost called him on it. Pure BS.

Now I agree that some things can improve sound (better supplies, stable designs, not using cheap electrolytic caps in the path). Many things like those fuses and speaker cone feet do not.

So in my opinion, I will rely on the numbers and listen for myself. Other opinions are fine too for them.

I in no way wish to degrade anyone personally and enjoy this discussion. There are many good people with opinions. So I hope to keep this conversation in an honorly and respectful way. I hope I have not offended anyone personally.

73
Dan
W1DAN

Audiophoolery or non-audiophoolery is pointless for nearly any level of audiosystem one has if surrounding environmental acoustics suck. 

I have been following this thread with some interest and waiting to see where it would go. I think both sides of the argument have very valid points, but Dan hit on perfectly. You just cannot change or argue imperical data gathered in a scientific manner. Alot of audiophools out there just see these ad's and go nuts buying anything that might improve their listening experience, and convince thenselves that it made a difference.yet there are audiophiles that recognize what will make a difference, and apply it correctly. I think alot of them get overshadowed, but also I feel they are in a very small minority.
A good example would be this:
Say you have a $5 POS violin bought in a second hand store Vs. a Stradivarious. To me, niether would make a difference because I cannot play the violin. Both would sound awful in my hands. Now take someone like Izaac Perlman ( I may have misspelled him name), he could make either one sound incredible. However, he uses a Strad. because he can distinguish the sound between the 2. Same goes in high end HI-FI, and same goes in HI-FI amatuer band AM. I can recall numerous times I have heard guys on the air installing some wiz bang gadget, and convincing themselves it was improving thier station somehow, until someone chimed in "what happened to your audio, OM....". It can be a 2 way street.
Point is: educate yourself and make informed desicions, listen to both sides of an argument, and go from there. 8)

Pigmeat, Hmmmm......................... what happened to bacobits??  Looks like soomeone iis getting upset............

As far as being a ham, you prolly have been lisenced longer than me, seeing that you have a WB call and Mine is a KB call. So what, at least I am active and on the air!!
I have looked back through my last 5 years of logs and scratch pads, Your call doesnt appear anywhere in them. Hmm....................

Most of you audiofools just live to carry your obsession to extremes!

As far as white man goes I do not consider myself "white" by the W.A.S.P. definition,
I am full blooded Sicillian, and proud of all 270lbs of it!!

As far as double blind tests and subtle differences go here is one to sink your teeth into:
         How about a double blind taste test, I can tell the difference between fresh garlic and dry powdered garlic in my spaghetti sauce. How about a double blind taste test. And if that doesnt work, I have 2 good recipes for pickled eggplant.

Dear Mr Beargrease You cannot upset me, Give it up now. I will be the one poking the stick ;D ;D
                                                             The Slab Bacon
                                                        (with the fat meat shakin)

What would be really interesting in all of this controversy would be for someone to produce some meaningful empirical data to support the case.  If any of this “high end”
witchdoctor-certified stuff could produce any truly measurable improvement in actual audio quality and/or response range, it might be worthy of respect.  I have never seen any real data to support the premise that any of this stuff really makes a meaningful difference.  It is all subjective.   By meaningful difference, I mean enough of a change that the human ear could actually discern a difference or improvement.  Not just an imagined difference, but something that could be heard by most people with average hearing.  I believe that it has been repeatedly proven by the telecommunications industry in extensive laboratory testing performed repeatedly since the 1930’s that it takes a minimum of a 3 or 4 dB difference for most people to detect any change. 

Oh well, why worry about ethics or scruples when there is an easy buck in it?

73,  Jack, W9GT :)

Now you're talkin my langauge. Nothing like the taste of that fresh garlic when preparing a good sauce. And that pickled eggplant sounds very appetizing. If ever you wish to share one of those recipies I am all ears.  :) :) :)

Ok, well 2ZE and 1DAN come closest to a rational position, imho.

The BROAD BRUSH comes when someone writes like this: ...product XYZ is idiotic, you people who think abc are stupid audiophools. How would that play if you were a ham on an audio forum and someone said that "product XYZ for hams is idiotic, and these hams are hamidiots"?? How can anyone tell where one is drawing that line? Sounds to me like it is being drawn across the board.

The full understanding of TIM really didn't happen until way later than Matty Otala's articles... and probably until later than '85 for the most part...

Julian Hirsch and Len Feldman never published a review that said anything much. Stereo Review.
The contemporary mags in the US don't say much, but Stereophile does publish some reasonable FFT response curves. There are some foreign mags that fill in some of the blanks, fwiw.

Now, Porkmaster, ya wanna talk about extremes?? Check out some ham shacks and basements! That's extreme!! And, whatever, I think that there's nothing wrong with "going for it" with a creative and constructive hobby like ham radio or audio.

Check out the audio DIY hobby, it's fun and run parallel to DIY ham radio in many ways...

          _-_-WBear2GCR

Bear,
I found the web site u posted http://www.americanwired.com/news/oswaldsmill/oswaldsmill.html to be great. This is not to say I agree with all that is stated there....but just to see what these guys are doing and the pics they posted is great. Looking at those toobs amps in full operation was a site to behold!!!! To bad the class E  ham stuff cant be that perdy..... ::)

Ummm.. .this is not quite correct.

3-4db is quite easy to detect.

Of course the type of source plays a role.

The actual figures are that a 1.5dB difference is a jnd, or Just Noticeable Difference. Two jnds = 3dB (iirc).
Now, you can hear far less than 1.5dB, depending on how the difference is presented - the context and type of sound.

Furthermore, it has been scientifically shown that people can hear information that is below the noise floor.

So, the issue of hearing, and what can or can't be heard is neither simple nor straightforward.

And there is a whole lot of testing and studies on this general subject. That is part of the way that the various compression schemes for digital audio were arrived at. They found ways to eliminate data that the brain tends not to notice or find objectionable. That alone should be sufficient to give a strong clue that hearing is neither simple nor straightforward.

          _-_-WBear2GCR

I agree. I think the website is cool.  But... We now know where good transmitting tubes are going.

Bear, if the gimmick being advertized has real scientific backing and can produce measurable data that corresponds to something that can be heard then maybe the item being advertized is worth it. Otherwise it;'s notrhing more than a bunch of crooks ripping off people who have no idea what they are doing.It's like CB'ers who have no concept of the decibal system and how it corresponds to incresed S units.

Most of the advertised audipfool devices lack credible evidence. They are nothing more than ripoff scams taking advantage of peoples ignorance.

Sam, Ya know I was having fun with it, I didnt really belive that some idiot would actually buy them!! Geeezzeee If someone would pay $485 for a wooden knob, what would they pay for a gold plated toilet seat with the promise of better sound?? I am flabergasted that anyone would actually buy them!! (come on Bear give us the reasons why it works).
Oh well Old P.T. was surely a profet, long ahead of his time!!
                                                                                         The Slab Bacon

Bear,
       as far as all of your blind tests and other shake oil salesmanship tests, here is one thing to always remember. The "victim" is always open to the power of suggestiion!
If you seriously bellieve it is so, ot will be so no matter what. You can talk the victim into thinking that the "dingleberry deluxe" speaker wire sounds better.

I have told this story before, and I'm gonna tell it again, because it sure fits the audiofool mentality.

Years ago I was in the automotive repair trade. Next door to the shop that I was working at was a hair salon. Robert, the owner of the salon had worked a deal with the owner of the shop that I worked at. It was that we would fix his cars for free
(he paid for the parts) and he would cut our hair for free. It had gotten to the point that I would never live long enough to collect all of the haircuts that he owed me, and he was getting to be a real pain in the ass.
       He came over one day complaining that his car "just wasnt running right" I was in a bad mood that and didnt feel like dealing with him. I told him to park the car at the top of the lot and I would look at it later on. I later walked over to the car and raised the hood. I let the car sit all day with the hood open, but never touched it otherwise. He came by around 6:00 and asked me if it was done. I told him that I had finished, but never got around to closing the hood. He drove the car away that evening.  The next morning he came over to me and said "I dont know what you did to it but it has NEVER run this good"

This goes to say one hell of a lot about the power of suggestion!! If you really believe it is so it will be so!! I am no psychologist, but isnt this how hypnotism works?

Now enter the audiofools, rug merchants, snake oil salesmen, and maybe Mr Bear!

The P.T.Barnum effect is still alive and well!! Long Live P.T. ;D ;D

I could go on and on with this, but you know what Murphy said: Never argue with a fool because sooner or later no one will be able to tell the difference"!!
                                                            The Slab Bacon   

John,
        If youu come down for my "Post timmonium party" You can expeirence it firat hand!!

                                                                            The Slab Bacon

I'd love to see this scientific documentation. Where can I read it?

Good question.

I do not have a ready answer.

The topic was discussed in some depth on either rec.audio.high-end (inhabited by rabid "objectivists") or another forum, probably rahe.

I am fairly sure that the idea was that one could hear single tones belowa noise floor. But I don't think this is in dispute amongst the Phd crowd that deal in hearing/perception. I think you'd have to try for a google on it, or search rahe and maybe hit it - alternately ping a Phd in perception - they'd likely know the reference well. I am sorry, I do not.

The resident specialist on that topic is no longer participating, as he was at Bell Labs, running a department that did nothing but this perception and codec work, but left when it was dismantled a few years ago when AT&T was more or less scuttled. He would have known off the top of his head. Dunno where he is now, but he's not on that USENET group now.

You could post there or on other forums and see if someone pops up with a citation.

As far as 0.22dBW being audibly detectable, it might well be. Not in everyday music or voice, certainly. But scary small changes are audible with pink noise (from a tweeter for example) and very very small changes of capacitance or inductance in an xover... try it some time for yourself, you'll be very surprised at what you can hear that way and not with music or voice as the source. Quite revealing, actually!  :D

In practice, when I am setting up or "voicing" a xover for a given speaker, using the measurements available (FFT boxes) with listening via pink noise certainly helps to "get it right." The FFT + computer simulations for the rough values always looks very good on paper. When you listen to it, it is usually pretty good. But once you work on the thing with the pink noise, per driver, and per pairs, then for the whole system, one usually finds that the result is "more right." And it's not bias or self delusion at work. I suppose it could be, but I tend to be a skeptic in these things and am not prone to thinking changes are better because they are changes, and have heard and seen far too much to be swayed by those usual biasing factors. But again that is only my opinion here.

The apocraphyl (sp?) auto mechanic story is no where as good as the story published by Dick Pierce regarding the Marantz 10B tuner alignment... similar, of course. No denying that people can and are swayed by appearances.

As I said, you all can come here and decide for yourself, being a skeptic you won't want to hear any differences, so you won't unless they are there. I know it will only be single blind, but in truth that is enough, and I can certainly randomize it sufficiently. You can decide for yourself. Who knows, you might not hear anything at all. I don't mind one bit.

       _-_-WBear2GCR

I'll dig around AES and the likes. Any written stuff should have wound up there.

I've made a lot of acoustic measurements in the controlled environment of an anechoic chamber. Getting repeatable measurements with less than a dB of variation was very difficult. Doing something at 0.22 seems to me to be unlikely, let alone audible. Not saying it's not, just in my experience, it would be very tough to do.

TNx for the leads.

No, people  here are saying that if you buy junk that does nothing and has no rational basis for what the seller claims then the person is an audiofool. Persons who make sensible purchases of real devices that can really improve quality based on real measurement are audiophiles.

Had an experience with high-end audio stuff that's illuminating to me....

I needed a phono pre-amp...the receiver I had with a phono input blew up & that's what I had been using.  I tried two different cheap devices and neither really did the job.

Then, to replace the receiver that blew up I got one of those Tivoli (Kloss...e.g. KLH) Model Twos, and I wanted to get a preamp to give it a phono input.

The high end shop where I got the Model Two convinced me that the Creek preamp ($250) was a good fit.  This is after I really pressed them about is it overkill for my turntable (Fisher MT-640) and the model two.  And yes, they were unwavering in their belief that that was the preamp that's appropriate.

OK, so I bouht it and asked about hook-up cables.  The sold me a Monster Cable Two RCA plugs to 1/8" phone plug for about $30.

I bit and bought it, even though I thought that, WTF? that cable should be about $5.  I might be getting ripped off here, but then again, everything about the shop said they know what they're doing.

So I took the preamp and cable home, hooked it up, and was rewarded with sound that SCREAMED that the preamp I got perfomed AWESOMELY!  Wow...the way it sounds says that every stereo receiver or preampI've ever owend had crap for the phono input, and that includes a Dynaco PAS-3.  So, they did, indeed, sell me the preamp that was totally appropriate.

Now...that $30.00 cable.

It is probable that if I would've gotten a $5 cable from Radio Jack, it would've sounded just as good.

But it is also truie that the Monster Cable cable I paid dearly for is very obviously much better constructed.  The defining thing there is that when I plug the 1/8" phone plug into the Model Two, it's hard to get it aligned right...that means to me that the tolerance on the mechanical dimensions are much tighter than on cheap cables.  Does it make it sound better?  Probably not.  Will it last forever, and  is it well made?  Absolutely.  Is this worth and extra $25?  You be the judge.

OK...that shop really knows what they're doing, and, probably, would never sell $10,0000 speaker cable.  And if they did, the reason they'd do it is because some of their customers expect them to sell stuff like that.  After all, they ARE an ultra high-end place.

And if that's how they pay the rent so that I can buy the really good stuff that doesn't require a second mortgage, hey, thanks, guys who buy the really expensive stuff for helping them pay the bills.

Hmmm.  I use a pair of 845's to drive the 805 modulator on one of my homebrew rigs.  Run full voltage on them, as recommended by RCA (1250 volts).  I don't use any pressure swictches or have any glass panels or metal cages around them.  They merely sit in their EF Johnson sockets, mounted on the chassis in a vertical position, as RCA has recommended for over six decades, and they get plenty of ventilation in my open back relay rack.  They have worked fine just like that ever since I built that modulator in the early 90's.

Actually any electronic reproduction of music or speech sounds terrible to my ears. So far inferior to the sound of a live voice or music played live. Then there is the added psychoacoustic depreciation in which simply knowing it is electronically reproduced and not live makes it sound even worst to my extremely critican and discerning ears. That's why I own no audio reproduction equipment. If I cannot listen to my music live I don't want to hear it.

Hi All:

I am amazed at the number of messages since I left yesterday afternoon. Hot topic!

My opinion on phono preamps (yawn!)....

I used a number of the lesser expensive ones until I built a couple of circuits in the Walter Jung Op Amp Applications book in the early 1980's. They used the normal NE5534 op amp and sounded great for my cash. I learned then that splitting the EQ up a bit (and also using some passive EQ between the op amp stages) can help the sound. Since then I use an old Radio Systems broadcast preamp that I bought at Hosstraders for $15.00. It has one of the best sounds I have found for it's price.

As far as the things that Bear likes:

I am interested in the science behind them. If you can provide AES papers or other documentation, I would enjoy reading them. One frustration I have is the fact that today's reviews no longer have much test data or theory of circuit design, which is what I enjoy. There is some good stuff out there, but also alot of snake oil.

So...can you provide test data as wo why you like a certain type of speaker cable over zip cord? Have you blind A/B's this with a friend or even had a friend blind A/B's this for you using your setup? Give us documentation that supports your opinion. BTW, in an A/B test I can hear about 1db difference using tones. I cannot hear in the noise floor. In a non-A/B test my difference detection is much worse.

In the end an actual concert is much better than reproduction. I have never been able to get close to an actual performance, even while listening to very expensive systems. Try the Boston Symphony in Symphony hall or a large big band concert. The concerts blow me away, and when I go home and listen to my halfway decent stereo, I am let down, but then I accept it. Also When I recall a tune, I do not remember how good the stereo wounded, I just hear the tune without remembering if it came through a transistor radio or a high end stereo.

Thanks and happy Memorial Day weekend!

73,
Dan
W1DAN

My understanding is that for a single tone, the masking due to noise is for a small band around that tone, eg at 1K hz , most masking is due to the bands 950 hz to 1050 Hz.  If the signal is 'X' dB above the noise in this band it can be heard.
If the noise is white noise , the sum of the noise across the whole audio band may be greater than the tone.
In fact in my 'lets try this now'  test using the noise from a rx as the noise source, mixed with a 1Khz tone, and the resultant measurd with an audio level meter, I can easily pick a tone 10dB below the noise and I'm ptretty sure I can pick 15dB below.
 (Noise BW = RX BW ~= 4.5Khz ,  transducer = HD 457 'phones)
Of course the noise floor on even a substanderd 'hifi' setup is considrably belowthe noise floor on a HF reciver with a weak signal.
                                     Ian VK3KRI 

Exactly the point!!

John, if you drive up north some time I'll try to show you some "reproduced" music that will not make you want to get up and leave the room. That's the aim of high-end. When high-end audio, be it inexpensive DIY or used gear or multi k$ gear, works properly you do not have the sensation that it is being reproduced mechanically or even that there are speakers in the room (yeah you see them, but the sound does not "come from them".)

 ;D

Oh, if you want to visit, please don't bring that iron shown in ur avatar...  ;)

       _-_-WBear2GCR

Ok, now we're getting somewhere!

I note how you say that splitting the EQ made some sort of improvement?  ;)
You're starting to catch on.
Now, take that same 5534 preamp and sub in some OPA2604 opamps and tell me what you hear.

Or try that with any circuit that uses 5532/5534... on paper there should be no audible differences.
 ;D


Go to http://www.diyaudio.com
You will find a ton of in depth circuit discussion and analysis.


I have no discrete test data as to why I like one speaker cable over another.
I don't know that it is possible to generate any, since we have no direct correlation between the measureable parameters of a speaker cable (or an amplifier) and what we prefer when listening.
The only thing there is is empirical preference reports - be they A/B, A/B/X or not.

We have done single blind A/Bs many times.
They are not "valid" as far as statistical testing, afaik.

The bottom line is that there are so many confounding and masking factors that are uncontrolled in the published tests that even those can not be reliably and safely generalized and applied outside of the exact test conditions. There is significant cost and time involved with even trying to document something seemingly as basic as the measureable electronic/acoustical parameters of a given system used in a blind A/B test. It has not been done thus far. Which, imho, is a serious flaw or "fly in the ointment' as far as the published tests of this sort are concerned.

It comes simply down to something like this:
- you listen using zip cord
- you listing using speaker cable X

...you either hear some difference or you don't. Be it a blind test or not. Blind is fine by me.

In the case of the cables I prefer, in a vast majority of the cases one notices that the entire presentation of the sound is noticeably "more natural" and less "mechanical" sounding. If there is no difference, or not enough difference, you continue to use zip cord. Simple as that.



This is quite correct.

Most people get most of the needed "information" from a table top or "transistor" radio (remember the "7 transistor radio"??). Interestingly, many world class musicians and composers do not have expensive hi-fi systems at all. They don't need or want them, the music is inside their heads!! (...this is an important clue - see below)

But two things are happening, no three in a live NON-AMPLIFIED concert that do not happen in a home:
1- distributed sound source
2- lower distortion than a speaker
3- much LARGER space

In the home you can usually overcome 2 & 3, if you have a large space. You can not overcome 1, which plays into item 3. If you have never heard a very high quality system in a very LARGE room, you should - the effect is quite different than speakers in a normal or even larger size home environment, and much closer to a "live" performance than you might imagine! The home stereo can mimic item 1 IF the system is set up properly, the acoustical environment is well "managed". But it also needs to push the envelope of item 2 as far as possible, which a vast majority of speakers or any sort fail somewhere across the spectrum in doing. But as you approach these three things the presentation and quality of the reproduced sound becomes more and more plausible compared to the live performance.

Keep in mind that the sole purpose of playing back sound is to convince your brain that it is hearing something!That's all. Think of the system as merely providing "cues" that your brain interprets. The closer to "natural" or "real world" the cues appear the more the brain decides it is "real." Similarly, the clearer the cues are, the less you brain has to work to decipher the cues, the more "natural" and "live" the sound appears!

Think of the problem this way - music or sound is information over time; for any given segment of time the brain has to decipher the information & cues and reassemble that into a thing that is compreheniible; cues are sonic events that you have learned or know how to catagorize and recognize;  so segments are assembled into what we hear as music or speech.

It's like watching the scenery out the side window as you speed down the highway!!  :o

Now, the more time and effort the brain has to spend on getting the basic information from any given time/segment of sound, like when listening to a "signal down in the mud", the less time/brain cycles are available to decipher the subtler cues (IF they are there!). The converse corresponds to a +20 signal: "oh ur running some reverb on ur audio" or "I hear your cat"! This is why eaking the last little bit of fidelity out of a stereo system really does mean something! It makes it easier to decipher the basic sound, so that there is literally time to make out the subtle cues and details! It doesn't take much to mask or confound the process of discerning those details at all. (...part of that reason is that stereo or even 4/5 channel sound is a poor sample of the original)

Which, in part explains to a great extent why "your system" always sounds good to you. Your brain has learned how to cope with many of the masking and confounding factors, and has built an algorithm which enables you (to the extent possible) to grasp the whole. Whereas a person coming to visit does not posess that ability and hears something rather different!

It also explains why and where the differences lie between a basic stereo and one that is refined.   ;D

Hope that illuminates some of this...


   _-_-WBear2GCR

hi all,
        finally getting on here. Interesting thread, we had a group internal where I
worked that were audiofiles and had similar discussions. I was the ee type, and
poop-poohed stuff like 10k speaker wires, writing with a green marker around cds etc.
however I learned I had a poor audio system, as compared to listening to theirs!
I picked though the bs.  They pointed me to better gear, better speakers, setting up sweet spots and more. I wound up with infinity ref II towers, and H&K amp. I made
up my own #10 stranded spkr cable, and the system was sure was sweet. I'm not
a audiofile, but I learned from them to be less casual about putting a system together!

deano!

Actually the kind of knobs used on high end equipment may actually enhance or depreciate the overall listening experience. The first part is a psychological effect. Grasping a cheap, flimsy knob as you crank up the volume adds a "bad feel" to the amp. Using quality knobs gives the amp a better look and feel which is psychologically interpreted as a bestter over all listening experience.

Then there is the concept of forced vibrations. Think about it. When you arelistining to sound you are creating sound waves. Speakers movong rapidly compress surrounding air create vibrations. Firced vibrations in objects, such as the audio components, tubes, and yes, the knobs will vary depending on the resonance charachteristics of the material. So, think about that knob vibrating rapidly and transfering it's energy to the potentiometer it's connected to. Think of that pot in vibration and how the electrical charachteristics will be affected. Sure , probably quite small but perhaps enough to depreciate the listening experience in the ears of a critical listener.  Now consider the resonance charachteristics of any component in the system and think about how it may or may not adversly affect the overla experience. Break it down piecemeal aqnd you'll find that even if one particular affect, i.e. vibrating knobs, dielectric effect, etc may make no discernable difference to the listener what is the aggregate component of all these effects on the listening experience.  It is this aggregate that is going to have the biggest impact.

manufactures would put metal plates in equiptment so it would feel heavy (man).. if its heavy, it Must be built better...

As far as science, double blind testing (by disinterested persons - no direct financial benefit) and reproduceable results and peer review, is the best way (so far) get an answer approching the truth.... These religious wars, over a piece of wire, do not accomplish anything... 

When there is any doubt about the validity of a statement, or an opinion, just remember that I am ALWAYS RIGHT, no mater what you all think.....

I hope this helps ....         klc

Hi Bear:

If you can find a technical article that shows the scientific data that supports your hearing an improvement of expensive wire over zip cord, I’d be more inclined to be a believer. Find the data and show it to us. Until then I’ll stick with my zip cord as I hear no problems with it.

I looked at the datasheets for the 5534 and opa2604. The 5534 has an open loop power bandwidth of only 700hz. The 2604 can do 400khz and has distortion one magnatude lower than the 5534. Hard data supporting a better sound. Good stuff! I have been to the DIY forum and enjoy it.

As far as the phono preamp sounding better with passive and separate EQ than the total EQ strapped around the feedback of one stage, my guess (and I have no numbers to support this!) is that the op amps can drive the loads better than when a capacitance is shunted around the feedback path of an op amp (a reduction of slew induced TIM). Maybe the separation eliminates the IM between the poles. But I say this sounds better to me. I could be wrong for others and do not say this is a definite improvement that all should use. I have not seen a paper supporting any test numbers yet.

You are correct that my ear gets “used to” the sound of my stereo. There are better stereos, but I enjoy mine without worrying about improvements.

Oh well, time to cook some burgers on my class A amp (Ok I really do not have one)….

73,
Dan
W1DAN

I said nothing about expensive wire at all.
What I talked about was differences without regard to price or cost.



I looked too, can't find any open loop BW spec for the 2604 in my BB book! Oh well.
But the idea that you're willing to accept that you might be able to hear the difference between an opamp that is claiming 0.0003%THD @1kHz and one that is a bit higher is interesting. Fwiw, the BB book explains something about the differences between the distortion spectra for FETs and bipolars wrt the audible "sound" of an opamp, and also the distortion of this opamp...

As far as the phono preamp sounding better with passive and separate EQ than the total EQ strapped around the feedback of one stage, my guess (and I have no numbers to support this!) is that the op amps can drive the loads better than when a capacitance is shunted around the feedback path of an op amp (a reduction of slew induced TIM). Maybe the separation eliminates the IM between the poles. But I say this sounds better to me. I could be wrong for others and do not say this is a definite improvement that all should use. I have not seen a paper supporting any test numbers yet.
One needn't wait for a paper before either experimenting or trying something like this. Papers and "proof" typically lag developments by quite some time.

FYI, my phono stage uses no feedback. It's generally accepted in the high-end community that this yields a superior result. Split EQ is also widely accepted as superior.


I enjoy mine too.  ;D

Let us not forget these words of wisdom:

"A fool and his money will soon part".

Ah,thank you...  sounds good !! I'll look forward to it.  :) :)

 ???  Ok, This is my first post as the most recent member. I shall endeavour not to make too much of an a$$ of myself. I do enjoy "high end audio" and have succesfully completed some DIY projects. The snake oil can be as much fun as any other aspect of the hobby, however the music is the stated goal, ie are you listening to music or equipment? Those of you who are photography enthusiasts should check out the various nonsense that goes on in that hobby! Google "bokeh" for an example.Post Scriptum, I was listening to a bunch of northeas AMers on a regenerative rcvr using a 100 TH full of gas, said 100TH was given me by W2PFY. Bye

Now, lessee is that raw virgin pressed snake oil, or the commercial variety??

And a regen w/100TH??

A c'mon! I think my leg has been pulled so much I'm walkin' like I live on the side of a hill or sumtin'!!  ::)

Blaming poor PFY... tsk tsk.

             btw, where are you located that you call then "northeast AMers"??

                           _-_-WBear2GCR

Mr. Bear, 1. Raw virgin.2.Yes 3.That could be an advantage, depending upon where you live.4 Ask Terry. 5.Lake Placid, New York. Is that sufficiently "northeast" ?. ???

Mr Bear, Iforgot to mention my Soundcraftsmen amp and my sattelite/subwoofer system with the enclosures of granite [3mm] .

I have to admit that this is a great candidate for pure confusion, a combination of real technology (Nimbus) and absurdity, from a listserve of the most rabid toob-o-philes:

(header has  been changed to protect the innocent)

Message: 2
Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 10:06:54 -0500
From: Ray
Subject: [JN] P. T. Barnum strikes again
To:

????

http://www.machinadynamica.com/

comments?


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Ok, now I'm laughing and pointing too...  ;)

         _-_-WBear2GCR

Been there, done that

http://amfone.net/Amforum/index.php?topic=7038.0