The AM Forum

I have decided to make this year my crossover year with the utilities. I am designing an alternative "Hybrid" system for my home.

The system I am looking towards will have solar, wind and a generator system combined to provide the charging power for storage batts. Eventually after testing and fine tuning the system I would liket o fully disconnect from the grid but for now I must get my feet wet if you will.

The power inverters are costly and I was wondering if anyone here has built any or would have designs and schematics for 3-5 kw units that cold be stacked with others? I am sure building them will reduce costs.

Any thoughts?

Gee my pdm generator for the 160 rig will do about 4 KW just add a transformer. I think the N9NEO converter would be perfect  Just feed either a 60 hz. sine wave.

BTW they just came out with a new cheaper solar panel about 2 months ago.
You might want to hold off until they hit the market.
I have a buddy in Palmdale Ca. with a wind mill...that will run you some bucks but his system in operation made about $100 an month. Pretty windy out there though.
I think his does 10 KW with 8 foot blades if I remember.

Well consideraing the cost to heat and have electric in my home the cost of alternative sources has become competitive and the costs are just going to increase so this is a good time to start experimenting with this stuff.

I am actually going to approach this as a hobby at first. Lets see I have spent  many dollars on my radio hobby and if I was to spend the same amount on this I would be saving money . My heating and electirc some far this winter season has been averaging $700.00 a month. On an annual cost analysis I am already spending the monies to convert over so I have the money to invest.

I will check into the N9NEO converter. I was not aware of it. Is it on the net Frank?

Gary,
Try this site for ideas.Lee...http://www.solarproductsource.com/storehome.aspx?CategoryID=24

Gary,

Look for a heavy white extension cord going to your neighbor's house. ;)

Hi Gary,

Sounds like you are embarking on an intertesting project.  Have recently built an off-grid system for a remote QTH -- out in the stix.  To me,  by far the least expensive energy you will find is on the grid ... by far.  Subsidies for grid-tied  systems will help.   Batteries are very expensive,  and need constant tending and awareness on the part of the users.  Being off-grid is kinna magical -- Solar silently charges batteries and provides power to loads.  Magic.  Batteries are large,  heavy and expensive,  AND have a limited useful life.  Generators  are expensive to run.  In my system,.  my monthly cost of on-grid electricity would not even pay the interest lost on the investment in the batteries alone.

Also,  most of the charge controllers (Solar and WInd) are switchers and generate RF noise.  Inverters, also, are heavily digital things and generate their share of noise.  All of hese noises are manageable,  tho.


As you know,  the simplest and most efficient system, where one has quite a lot of sun,  is the grid-tied Solar system,  without batteries.  Often there is a governmental subsidy for the grid-tied systems.

Our electirc utility is PG & E,  which I truly HATE,  but there is a lot to be said to flipping a switch,  and not needing to know the state of YOUR power system.

For you in the East and North,  am sure that heating in the winters is a big expense.

73  GL with the project  Gary,  and  Thank You very much for this great site.   Vic ex  KF6RIP -- now  K6IC   .  .

Interesting concept.
At work we had a solar wall (air heater to boost the make up air system) installed on one of out bigger buildings it cost about $80,000 and cuts heating costs about $1100 to $1500 per year. Good thing we got a government grant!. The big problem is that there isn't any significant sun in Nov or Dec and it doen't get full sun until after 1:00PM.
I would think the cheapest way to go is to set up a bunch of solar panels wirhed to some electric heaters, no inverters or batteries, whatever it makes you don't buy and the heaters dont care about being run od DC.

My solar cost me about $4K and the house is warm enough to walk around in shorts if the sun is out. I save 300 to 400 gal. of oil each year. I built it in '84. Also turned a car port into a room adding 400 square feet to the house.

Hey Frank,

How many panels (sq') did you construct. Air, water? And what do you use as storage?

Yea,  Frank,

Is it safe to assume that your "Solar" system is passive Solar collector,  ie collecting radiant sun energy through glass (and possibly storing it in thermal mass) ?

Current prices on Solar panels have been at abt $4.50/MPPwatt or a bit more.  This is without any subsidy.

What is the story ?      Vic,         K6IC

If you can string 10 batteries in series to get 120 volts DC, you won't even need an inverter for much of your stuff.  A lot of stuff in your house will run from DC.  The only appliances that MUST have AC are things with induction motors, (magnetic ballasted) long-tube fluorescent lights, or transformers.  Stuff like blenders, light bulbs, power drills, etc. will run from DC.  Although I haven't confirmed it, the solid-state ballasted fluorescents, as well as most switching power supplies ought to run fine from 120V DC.  Then you can get a small inverter for those few things that must have AC. 

You can build a chopper to convert 120V DC to 120 VAC pretty easily.  It takes 4 MOSFETS and 2 driver chips.

Dave that would produce a square wave signal very dirty. It is better to us a high frequency converter like the N9NEO converter and make sine waves at 90% efficiency. A chopper would also need a much bigger transformer.

OK, then you have a master switch to turn off your refrigerator & its induction motor while you are on HF.  If the fridge is well stocked with 12oz bottles, it will stay cold a LONG time.

I am approaching this project very seriously. I have done a lot of research  on this stuff. The system would have to grow over time with any type of budget I could create for this.


I did some quick math averaging our cost to heat and light this place over the last three years.

Our annual average over the last 3 years has been $4340 a year. Keep in mind that our electric doubled over the last year. It went from $2.66 a KWH to $4.61 a KWH just over the last 12 months!  More increases are guaranteed!! .

Heating would be handled with solar and wood.

The sytsem I am looking at costs around $40,000 if purchased as a complete sysem. I know I can reduce those costs buy building some of the gear and shopping around for the rest.

The State of NY will give a close to 37% in rebates and tax incentives to convert and there are also Federal incentives to do the same so I think the realistic number would be closer to $15,000 and at the current cost of operation here at todays pricing the return would be realized in less than 5 years.

The type of system I am looking at is linked below. I would build the inverter system, I don't need the tower or tower wiring kit so I have already chopped off almost $12,000 from the system. Now if I was to tie into the grid and if I had excess I could charge the utility! Again more savings.

I would eventually add solar panels to also help in the charging of the batts during the summer months when the winds are not as intense up here .

It is becoming clearer to me with every rate increase that the alternative systems out there are becomng more competitive with every increase.

Here is the system I have been looking at

 http://www.utilityfree.com/wind/remotesys7.5.html

You pay $4.61 for a kilowatt-hour?  You could run your own diesel generator for about 1/10 that.

We pay about 7 cents.  I knew our cheap subsidised TVA power cost less, but I was thinking the national average was about 10 cents.

Hi Gary,

Yea, the $$ / Kwh  seems off by a factor of 25 of 50.  Here in CA we average about $.17/Kwh in a 3-tier residential bundled rate  plan.

The interter listed in the package was on sale late last year @ $2200.00 plus shipping.  Now they are abt $2540.for the Xantrex  5548 SW Plus (Plus has FCC Class B cert.).

PLEASE avoid the multiple strings of batteries.  This causes multi headaches of all of the interconnections,  and a miriad of cells to keep watered.  Also, these inexpensive cells seem to leak at any penetration of the top cover, and they are short lived.

Since U did NOT ask,  I would suggest that U might look at the Rolls Surette batteries.  Batteries like these are fairly large and allow a single string to be used -- many fewer probs,  and rated at 3300 cycles ant 15 year nominal life.

My favorite vendor is Colorado Solar Electric       www.cosolar.com            At least for the Surette batteries, and other items including Solar panls.   I have no interest in the company,  just an honest small company with a knowledgeable owner who installs systems and has a lotta experience.

If you can avoid the batteries,  and make your system grid-tied only,  the grid is your battery and you avoid all of the heartache.  Realize that when the grid is down,  so are you (at least usually).

But who am I to advise you.  73  GL       Vic      K6IC

Hi Gary,


   Since you have the good old electric utility already hooked to your house, why not make it work for you. Most utilities will deduct power that you supply to them. Configure your system so it will clock perfectly along with the 60 hurts (really hurts if it isn't in phase) from the power company. Run all your stuff in the home as before but use your solar power to supply the utility. Run that kiloWatt meter BACKWARDS just like the used car business. Use them like a big battery. No more worries on shady days or nights.
    A type A like yourself should have all this running properly by, say, the end of next week.

Wow , I screwed the pooch on that last post . Those numbers were daily averages for the last two years ( 04, 05). It is costing about $11.00 a day this year.
 :o

Revised costs


We use approx 76 kwh per day here. ( these are an annual average provided by National Grid)

National Grid delivery charges per kwh

Delivery cost            3.0649 cents
delivery adjustment   2.924 cents
sbc charge p           .172900 cents
trans rev adj            .21000 cents
tariff surcharge   2%

delivery total            6.499236 cents per kwh.

Electric supply charges   per kwh  = 8.4430

Total charge per KWH    14.942236 cents per kwh

Apprx annual cost at 76kwh per day  =$4161 for the electirc per year ( we buy gas too!)
All of the above figures are from my last electric bill and the figures were provided by National Grid.

Think about this, I did not fire up the big rig last month either!!!



Vic, Thanks for the input.

I have looked at the Rolls Batteries and from the reading I have done I guess you get what you pay for in the battery world.   I will check out Colorado Electric,.

 Any pics of the remote setup you have.?

I have been researching for about a year now but I have no applied experience in these matters . That is why I posted here hoping to find a few that have some actual experience with these matters. I know Frank has been playing around with the solar heating for years.

I may just go with the grid tied system to start and slowly wean myself off the lines in time as products become less costly and more efficient.

 I really want that feeling of freedom by calling the utility and saying" Pull the meter", Yes that felt good just thinking about it. ;)

Hi Gary,

I have taken the first step to getting off the grid myself.  I have 2m rig and some SWL rigs running off a few car batteries.  I figure if power goes out at least I got something.

I think the Wind is a really slick idea.  I spoke with some people up at Northern Power, a big windmill outfit up in VT,  last year and the consensus was the grid was still the cheepest way to go for the homesteader.  I think the crossover point is way closer than we thought though.  Obviously when electricity doubles in price alternatives do begin to look more attractive.

I design inverters in the range you are looking at on up to 50kw and even higher.  I can tell you that a 2-3kw inverter can be built for a lot less than you would pay.  A 10Khz pwm carrier rate would be reasonably easy to filter and would be about 95%-97% efficient, including the filter losses.  If you have to do a conversion from some other bus voltage than say 150v - 170v you will lose another 3%-5%.   Sorry I cannot give you schematics because we don't hand them out where I work.  I can answer your questions though.

Another way to go for homebrewer might be a square wave design.  The pwm design which produces a nice sine wave would need a small filter where a square wave design would need a bigger filter.  The problem with square waves is that there are some low order harmonics not far removed from 60Hz that will require one of those fancy class E type multipole pwm filters, and still probably wont work so good and output will look very trashy.  BUT you won't have any of the high order filters that produce hash type noise.   The pwm design would need a microprocessor and some code, while the square wave design would need a small digital ring counter or a basic stamp sort of microcontroller.  I expect the square wave design to be about as efficient as the pwm inverter.  Your losses are just moved from the silicon to the filter when you go to a square wave design.  A third way would be a low frequency carrier somewhere in the middle.  Every pulse you add will offer you the opportunity to remove one harmonic.  The type of inverter you choose should be based on what you minimally need for a output distortion number and also what is available for control. If the loads will take square waves then there ya go.  If you can program a micro or somebody hands you a control board then there ya go too.

73
Bob

 

Gary,
  Will your inverter system be standalone parallel to the grid? If parallel with the grid you'll need safety (U.L.) approvals as well as approval by your local utility. Aside from the legal issues, you could be in big trouble with the Insurance Mafia should you have a fire (even if your homebrew inverter is not the cause!) You will also need a utility disonnect  in case the grid goes down (you don't want to be feeding power back into the grid while the utility repair guys are working on the wires!) For these reasons a homebrew inverter is pretty much ruled out unless you are going to have a separate standalone system.

  Residential wind power requires a 80-120' tower on average so we're not talking small stuff here.  The American Wind Energy Association is a great resource:
http://www.awea.org/faq/tutorial/wwt_smallwind.html

  Solar still costs (for the photovoltaic panels alone) $4-$5/ peak watt. Newer technologies and processes have brought down the manufacturing costs for photovoltaics somewhat but the manufacturers are not selling the end product any cheaper - they are pocketing the difference. The demand for PV panels is so high that there is no incentive to reduce selling costs. 80% of PV panels made in the U.S. are exported to Asia. The worldwide PV capacity has grown at about 25% per year for a number of years and shows no signs of slowing. Despite (or maybe because of) this prices are not dropping.

New York State has a incentive program that will provide a cash incentive of $4/watt, BUT only for systems that are connected to the grid and its payable only to an eligible installer (Not only can't you make the inverter, you can't install it!). See the NYSERDA web site for more details:
http://www.powernaturally.org/Programs/Solar/incentives.asp

Despite how bad your utility is treating you and how much you hate them etc., and despite recent sharp rises in electric rates the grid is still much much cheaper than generating your own power.
People put in there own power systems for one of two reasons:
1) They live too far off the grid
2) Personal satisfaction and independance.
They don't do it to save money!

All the same, I'd say give a standalone homebrew solar system a go, its an interesting hobby in its own right. I have a few very small panels (10W) that I charge batteries with and on the small panels the $/watt is really ridiculous ($120-$150 for a 10W panel!)

73 & GL Warren K2ORS/WD2XGJ

Hi Gary,

I will send a few pix in a week or so ...nothing too impressive, pair of 5548 inverters stacked,  some panels, Outback charge controller and some Rolls batts.   The grid is abt 5 miles away,  by choice.

73  Have Fun,   Vic  K6IC

Interesting comments, Warren.

I know that you were in the very high-tech back up power business in the past, so you know the score.

About ten years ago I checked out putting up a windmill in great detail. I decided that the maintainance / breakdown cost, the batteries, the life of the parts, the initial investment etc,  did not make it cost effective.

I'm cornvinced that the best method would be to tap a strong brook or stream running by the house. If yu're lucky enuff to have one.  Hydro seems like a great method. Channel some of the water through pipes to increase its flow rate and you might have something. But then it may need batteries too, or use the grid as your backup as someone suggested here.

Oh, it would be nice if we all could use a palm sized nuclear reactor to generate steam, huh?

Good luck, G. It's a noble undertaking.

T

Tom,
    I still do some consulting work for the Dept. of Energy so I keep a hand in it. You hit the nail on the head, batteries are a big expense/maintainece headache and need to be periodically replaced. You have to control the charging and worry about the batteries venting explosive gasses.
 Also right on target about small hydro (called low-head hydro in the business) it could be cost competitive if you have access to a stream and there are no environmental/wetlands problems with puttting in a turbine.
  I should have mentioned net metering. Under the PURPA act (Public Utility Regulatory Policies Act of 1978) Utilities are required to buy back any excess power you generate at the market rate (this assumes grid-connected). So if you generate more than you use you can make a few cents/kHW - keep in mind they only pay you the 'generation' charges, not all the other things they bill you for such as the wires (transmission & distribution charges), taxes etc. You have to go through the hurdles of using a commercially built and installed system that is approved by the utility before you are eligible for net metering under PURPA though. As an investment it sucks but you get the satisfaction of selling electricity back to the utility.

73 & GL
Warren K2ORS/WD2XGJ

but Warren who will know if you are driving the meter in the reverse direction?
I checked into solar and figured 15 to 20 years if nothing broke. Ct. will pay instillation costs if you go for it but the prices are way past stupid. One place I called wanted $75 to come by and give me a quote.
I buried PVC under the basement floor in the new qth so I can put panels out to heat the slab.
My buddy in Palmdale has a 50 foot free standing tower serious strappage to hold up his unit. He blew a bearing and everything stopped. he needed to rent a crane to drop the unit. I've always wanted to put a water wheel in the stream behind the house. I found the law says you can't mess with water flow so good luck doing that.
I think the biggest bang for the buck is insulation and window performance.
Second is passive solar.
both require no repairs and just keep paying for themselves if you do it right.

Yes, I prefer low tek myself.  Sweaters and blankets are good.  I wonder what would happen if you put a big ass water tank like 50k gallons underground.  Heat it up in summer with heat pump and use it to then heat house in winter.

Line interactive UPS are big pain in ass.

73
Bob

How about this idea?

Get an old steam, coal fired boiler. A big MO FO. Use the steam to turn a turbine electric generator for power. Take the steam that comes outa the turbine and pipe it thru the house radiators for heat.[or whatever radiators will handle steam] Also use the hot steam to heat the hot water in the house.

In addition, place the boiler where it best can be used to provide radiant heat, like a standard stove to heat the house. Maybe even an air ducting blower system to circulate the heat around the house from the stove.

Downside: Get out the coal shovel and load that boiler, mate!  [They DO have auto coal loaders]

T

Frank,
     If you drive the meter backward then you will owe that much less at the end of the month! If you generate on average more than you use the utility will send you a check (minus the wiring costs etc that they collect because they own the transmission and distribution system). 

You could design a strategy where you had say a PV system sized such that it produced as many kilowatt hours a month as you normally consume from the utility. During the day you make a lot more electricity than you need so you sell it back to the utility. At night, you buy electricity from the utility rather than run off batteries. If you balance it right you don't need batteries, and only pay the utility for the use of their wires.

73 Warren K2ORS/WD2XGJ

Warren,

How does it work?   Does your voltage sensor increase your voltage to slightly higher than the utility, then pass current through their system?  Does your own system limit the current and voltage level at the same time?

It seems that the 60 cycle phase has to be exact too?  No wonder they don't want some hack with a makeshift generator pumping power back down the line...  ;D

T

Tom,

Wonder how many btu's of heat you'd get if that doo of yours caught on fire? 8)

I would prefer to use the grid as my battery than a bunch of crap in the basement..
the power co uses more juice during the day so they love it. Tom just look at the grid like a big AC battery. Same deal you can drive it or load it. Yes your power factor must track the grid or juice flows the wrong way.  Look at all the generating stations they all must be in sync to drive the big short circuit load called the grid.
The blackout a couple summers ago was due to phase shift.

TALKING OF POWER GRIDS

There is a real component and a reactive component of current when connected to a grid and trying to put power into it.  By varying the magnitude you can control the reactive portion and by varying the phase you can control the real part.  or vercy vicy.  Anyway, this is pretty much the same if you have a large synchronous generator or the equivalent static inverter.  The same rules apply.

Motor drive inverters get burned in usually by what is called a back to back motor system.  Drive runs a motor which is shaft coupled to another motor which is hard wired back to the power line and acts like an alternator.  These are induction motors so that there is slip and the drive is run slightly above 60Hz like 62 or 63 Hertz.  It is not a big deal if the drive is off by a fraction of a hertz or so.  If both motors about 90% efficient then then you got about an 80% efficient system and also a couple % losses in drive.

If you are a reasonably adept control guy you can design a system where you take  the output of the drive and stick it through three inductors and then back onto the power line.  This then is how you would burn in the inverter.  This system is much less forgiving than the two motors in that the frequency AND phase of the system has to be under strict control.  You can't get lost and slip a pole or the system will shut down.  It has to be locked in.  Fortunately with many very large synchronous generators on the grid there is a large amount of mechanical inertia on the grid. The grid will not rapidly change frequency so it is an easy job to lock on to it.   This is actually how a line interactive UPS system works.  The inverter is normally phased so that it is actually supplying the power to your loads.  In the event of a power outage there is not even a flicker of the lights.  If you got a piece of gear on the line that shorts out then the inverter will phase back and try to get the power grid to clear the fault for you.  If the grid goes down you have to pay attention to what is called islanding.  You can have little islands of charged portions of the grid that can present a danger to others who may not know what is hot and what isn't.  I'm not really clear on how only your loads are running off of your ups and your neighbors aren't.

Oh about +-15yrs ago,
          I visited Frank GFZ in January. If you remember that day Frank, it was one
of the coldest {{brr}} mo-fo days.  I froze on the way down, couldn't get warm
in my old truck.

          I came in to your passive solar room, I think it was 80 and planted myself
in the chair looking out at a fairly low sun and felt warm for the first time in hours!
It made an impression, loved your system.

          Inverters, they make some pretty cheap 1-3kw inverters,, statpower,
others. but they are not made to push power back to the utiliy co. nor should
they be connected in anyway.

          You probably won't be able to produce enuff juice to sell it anyway. btw, here in tucson, they will only pay back .02/kwr!! to home generated juice. however heating energy is a breeze here in tucson. I think I pay $100-200 tops for the year and the house isn't energy efficient.

          If I had a windmill back east, winters, I'd just wire it to heaters direct
and let it just dump btu's into the house. probably the best energy ease place
to live, might be amarillo tx in the pan handle. no real cold, windy all the time.
And you can have the best darn steak in the world there, hmm still thinking of
the ribeye I had on the way out here!

deano

Hi Dean,
Yup, you are one of my few friends who showed at the perfect day to check out the system. Snow on the ground helps reflect even more energy in the house.
Today it was 80 in here all day long. I was happy to hang out in the shack and cool off. It's about 70 now and we are all wearing sweaters.... but the heat has not been on since about 9:30 this morning.
New place will store heat under the basement floor.   

Gary,
    I just looked at your numbers and you are not close to break even for a solar photovoltaic system. At todays prices and given your location a grid connected solar system with battery back up would run you approx. 83 cents per kwh. Check out the solarbuzz web site:
http://www.solarbuzz.com/SolarIndices.htm

   But if we did things only on a dollars and cents basis then we wouldn't bother with ham radio either! (What's the payback on a ham rig  of any description vs. unlimited long distance telephone service using Skype or Vonage?)

73 Warren K2ORS/WD2XGJ

Gary,
     If you use 76 kwh/day and in Syracuse you have an average of 4hrs per day sun year round then your PV system would need to be 76/4 = 19 kW! At $4/Watt (the low end of the price scale) the cost of the PV panels alone  would be $76,000. In winter Syracuse gets an average of 2.5hrs of sunshine so if you sized the system based on that you would need 76kwh/2.5h = 30.4 kW of solar panels at a cost of $121,600. again for just the panels. Keep in mind that each kW of panels will occupy approx 90 = 100 sq. ft of area so you will need 1900 -3000 sq ft - that's big!

Average sunshine maps:
http://www.members.cox.net/weller43/sunshine.htm

73 Warren K2ORS/WD2XGJ

That is why I'm into super insulation. Solar pv just isn't worth the trouble and we won't live long enough to break even.

Frank,
        Solar PV pays when you live miles off the grid and the cost of running a power line is several $100K.
Conservation can be cost effective, look for sales and rebates on the compact flourescent bulbs to replace the very inefficient incandescent lights. L.E.D. lighting will someday become cost effective and is even more efficient than the compact flourescents.
        I have 2 solar PV panels, 10watts each, one I bought at a hamfest for $50, the other was an engineering sample given to me.  I use one of the 10W flexible panels and a charge controller to charge a 12V 26AH gel cell which powers my Icom706 in the mobile (the mobile is not tied to the car alternator or battery in any way). I did it to get isolation from the noise in the car's electrical system. Turns out most of the noise comes in from the antenna, not through the dc power from the car.
73 Warren K2ORS/WD2XGJ

Or, You COULD do like the Tron. Back in the 70's he used a pole pig to tap directly off the high voltage lines running by his property in a field. FREE power while it lasted.   7KV to 240 AC output. It worked FB until one day the wind blew down his 2X4 frame holding the taps and started a fire. Just a minor brush fire with fire trucks - and a slap on the wrist from the power co...    8)

T

Something doesn't seem right here. Gary says he averages 76 kwh per day. Last month, Feb, the average daily temp was 32 deg F (in Denver probably 10-15 degrees colder at my QTH) and I used 463 kwh for the entire month. The cost was $45.23. In the winter it's around 450 kwh for the month and in the summer around 300 kwh per month.

I bought 166 CCF of natural gas for the furnace, stove, waterheater, and dryer. Brought my total bill to $191 for Feburary. Bills are in the $70-80 range in the summer.
This is for a 2400 sq ft house, R-25 walls R-45 ceiling, with no fires started last month in the wood stove.

Gary, if you're heating the house with electric that's the first thing to fix.

73, Marty WB2RJR

Wow some great comments.

First and foremost , Tom I see you finally got your hair under control!.

Warren . Yes the figures you presented are correct. That is what drove me in the direction of passive solar hearting like Frank has been working with and wind power. My location up here on the hill has an averge annual winds  of 11 miles an hour. I don't know what direction I will eventually end up with but PV is certainly a last option and frankly would be used in a supporting role not a primary role.

In the winter we have little sun but a lot of wind. In the summer we have little wind but a lot of sun. So my thoughts were a hybrid sytem to supplement each other.

I see the system as I continue my research in the same light as much of the info offered here. To depend on any one sytem would be completelty out of line $/kw and the grid is the best bet.

My approach would be a experimental approach starting small and then adding on over time slowly reducing energy costs as I learn the applied side of this. If I think of the amount of money I have spent on this hobby over the last 18 years I can easily justify some cash for this cause ???.

Marty - yes, that is my daily annual average consumption as listed above. I copied the info off of my bill from National Grid. We have three children, The dryer runs at least 4 times a day along with the washer. Two dishwasher loads a day. 5 Computers and monitor screens, 4 TV sets, not to mention the lights and support systems for the home. Take that and add the Ham gear into the equation and you have it. When I was more active a few years ago , in the winter months, which is when I operate the most, the electric bill would go up abot $80.00 per month until spring.  Big rigs use big power ;).

Then of course I am spending almost as much to deliver the power to my home as the power I use.  What I find interesting is if I compare last years consumption to this years consumption I have reduced my combinde gas and electric useage by 20 % and my bill almost doubled!! The gas side is really looking good but I am losing on the electric.

This project should be fun. I apprecaite the input here and updates on the progress will be submitted as we move forward.   

Gary your electric rates are dirt cheap compared to us poor slobs. power co. got 2 big increases the past two years. Tom Vu will have to go My ugly class E if they go much higher.

Gary,
      I strongly recommend that you collect wind speed data before investing in a wind power system. You need an average speed of 8mph. Buy one of the weather stations that has a computer interface so that you can store the data. You do need a substantial tower - remember that unlike an antenna, a wind turbine is designed to catch the maximum amount of wind - torques will be considerable. It needs to be >80' high depending on local topography and obstructions it may need to be substantially higher.
    As I pointed out with solar, you won't be eligible for any rebates unless you are grid tied and that means a commercial inverter that is approved by your utility and installed by pros that are certified or otherwise  recognized by the utility. The utility may ask you to carry insurance in addition.  The AWEA web site has a great how-to slide show on residential wind:
http://www.awea.org/pubs/documents/swslides/toc.htm

   A solar hot water or geothermal system would probably save you money - if you are using 76kwh in a day then you must be using electric heat. Solar hot water heat  is basically just plumbing so no high tech or utility approval is required. Just dumping the electric heat should bring your electric usage down from 76kwh/day to a couple of kwh/day. At that point it really would not make financial sense to generate your own electricity.

  73 Warren K2ORS/WD2XGJ

Warren,
You are not kidding on the tower. My buddy in Ca has a free standing 50 footer that has 4 legs. It would easily handle an 80 meter beam. The concrete block at the bottom was about 6 feet on a side.
 The generator that set up top was about 3 feet long and almost 2 feet in diameter. It took a crane to drop it.
I figure 300 lbs easy without th eblades. The blades are 8 feet long 3 if I remember.
Serious force.
Not something that can go on your roof.
Water or passive the cheapest but then you need sun.

Gary
One of the neighbors up at our camp on Mexico Point, Lake Ontario, has a wind turbine. Yes the tower is a real substantial three legged tapering tower. The three bladed prop is real loud when it is running kinda a whump/whump sound. Don't know the owner so I don't kiow hat it is hooked to. There is a marine radio antenna on the tower so maybe it runs that Hi Hi.
Vinnie

the biggest one I ever saw was on top of Mt Tom in Ma.
You could hear it a 1/4 mile away if the wind was right.
Blades are quite long. I don't think it is running any more.

I had a discussion with guy from Fairchild last week and he told me he thought that windmill prop tips could end up going supersonic if thing spins fast enough.  I don't know if that is bad or not.  I don't know if blades have a lifetime or not or any other ongoing maintainence that has to be done.

I recently had some conversations with some people who do very large windmill system designs and installs.  An interesting point was brought up that the actual speed of the windmill can vary all over the place.  The inverter  between the generator and the power line does the actual frequency conversion.  So if generator is putting out 20Hz so that inverter has to spin at 40Hz to get the power to mate up to the 60Hz line power.

Remember the sound of that big wheel spinning in the movie, "Contact"?  Wheeeeeeew - Wheeeeeew - wheeeeeeew - then it became unglued and went to pieces.

Now THAT was a big MO FO.

I have to agree. After doing my own research into large bladed windmills, maintainence and potential crap outs, it makes a pair of stacked full sized 75M rotary Yagis look like a cakewalk.

T

Bob,
My Buddy in Ca. had SCRs doing  the frequency conversion. I don't remember any big caps as if it was starting with LF AC to DC. There was nothing mechanical on the ground and there was nothing but mechinacal on the tower.  It locked up on him and the last time I saw it was on his garage floor. A  bearing seized up and hacked the drive shaft a bit so it needed to be welded up and turned true.

Instead of completely disconnecting from the grid can;t you work out some sort of arragnement where you sell power back to them and it appears as discounted from the bill ? This way you're connected to the grid and it's there if you need it but you're usility bills stay verylow since you're making most of the power yourself.

You could build a gas producer system and run a standard internal combustion powered generator.  You feed the gas producer any flamable solid. (wood chips, ground leaves,  brush, or wood pellets, coal, dry trash), usng an automated auger system. The gas producer makes a lot of heat as a by-product, which could be used for heating you house or making hot water.   If you are faily handy the system wouldn't be to expensive. Basically you'd need to weld up some stainless steel and do some plumbing.  The issue is fuel storage since it's bulk, I think you would need a shed or barn for enough storage. The plus is that you can "harvest" your fuel at a very low monetary cost. The down side is that most of the free fuels will need to be ground/chopped/chipped for ease of use. 
Every fall I think about this as I rake up a huge amount of leaves and brush and such.... 

Ed,
How about drawing gas from the sewer vent stack....... ::)

snot a bad idea..... ya want to get to the street side (the trap is a water vapor lock, gas check whatever) and really tap into the " me thane "... on another note, for years the Albany, NY dump had vents to burn off the gas... the dump was right at an toll interchange and was quite interesting to see the patches of blue flame as one drove by...   klc

I imagine a back fire could mess up the neighborhood :o

Hmm well, it might be more efficient to ferment BS... as it is so much more plentiful..

Actually the gas producer I was talking about, burns the waste, the smoldering material produces flamable gases.... but not methane.

The most impressive gas burnoffs I've ever seen were in the middle east.  They had BRIGHT flames that were 3 or four stories tall at times.
Great beacons in the desert.  Imagine the waste of natural gas.   I was told they don't process it because Oil is so much cheaper and easier to deal with.  So they just Burn off the natural gas that is forcing the oil up to the surface....   what a waste!