The AM Forum

This is beyond appalling.  What was this guy thinking?

click me (http://www.qrz.com/ib-bin/ikonboard.cgi?s=dabe6d5d3d6f95517e69ae4d574924ec;act=ST;f=7;t=100289)

edit - try it now, fixed the link

I don't know, but it looks like it got pulled.  The qrz site shows an error message.

now that is sad

must be a 3 box top ham rice box driver

What a disgrace and furthermore, what an a_hole.   I can't wait to see how that story makes the rounds in the military. 

Sorry, but I'm appalled after reading this...

Took the words right out of my mouth, Paul. Another pompous, self-important schmuck lacking common sense putting another nail in the ham radio coffin.
It doesn't say much for the training that ARES provides before unleashing newly-minted hams as net controls.


-BIll

 >:(

What a peckerhead!

This wingnut actually thinks the FCC is going to come down on him for talking to a military aircraft flying into one of the most powerful hurricanes ever to threaten American soil?


Of all the stupid, asinine, bonehead things a ham can do, this is WAY beyond them all. Radio (not just ham radio, either) Rule Number One:


And these guys on QRZ are actually debating which regulations apply, lending creedence to this stupidity! Makes me proud to be a very vocal ex-member of QRZ.

Sweet Jesus Harold Christ, this guy could have gotten somebody killed by putting the regulations in front of someone's health and welfare. When is some organization that actually has a clue going to step forward and train these people? Is there anybody left in this fading republic that has BAs enough to actually do the right thing as opposed to the correct thing?

Let's all take a moment to thank this clown for illustrating how totally useless and irrelevant ham radio has become in times of emergency.

Nail. Coffin. Bang. Bye-bye ham radio.

--Thom
Kilimunjaro Africa One Zulu Goat Cheese

I'd reply to you Thom, but I'm busy searching the FCC database for any Lousiana public safety agencies that might be illegally transmitting on an expired or otherwise defective FCC license.

Who needs clues?

ARES: Amateurs Rejecting Emergency Services

The truly sad part is that a REACT weenie probably would have been more helpful. At least he would have given the guy the information he asked for! Even if it was wrong, reverberated, clipped, and roger-beeped, he'd have given the guy something!

Someone should send this guy an OO card for dereliction of intelligence.

--Thom
Killer Agony One Zipper Got Caught

I can't believe there are so many psuedo lawyers out there.  Who would question whether a military weather data collection aircraft should not be answered?  After all a weather data collection aircraft did request local weather infomation.

Good for you JN on your reply.  I added one and hope it added fuel to the fire.

I recall a photo on the Hamsexy.com site that showed a bumper sticker something on the order of:  "ARES - getting in the way since 1951"

I'm probably going to take a lashing here but from what I just read, (QRZ restored the thread) the NCS was new and going by the rules. However they found a way to compromise the situation. A station was giving conditions of different QTH's and made sure he mentioned Biloxi, (the condx the C-130 requested), every 10 minutes without making it a direct response to the aircraft. I think we need to take a deep breath instead of a reactive knee jerk to the situation. The NCS was damned if he don't; damned if he do. In the end, they covered all bases. Of course, there was one interesting response about K1woMAN posted in the same thread ;D

(http://www.hamsexy.com/ARES1.jpg)

Idiot!

No lashing but consider that a Military Weather Data plane was asking for a local weather report in a state of emergency declared before the storm reached the coast.   As far as I am concerned that was appropiate communications.

You have a new, rather untrained, rather inexperienced ham acting as a control of a semi-official net.  I wonder about the properiety of the decision of managers of the net to appoint someone who lacked vast experience in emergency  matters.

To put in a plug for the ARRL of years past, at least they provided guidenance on protocol and operational matters that permerated amateur radio.  Today, in order to give that experience to hams, they are offering courses to operators so they may gain certification in that very arena.  Currently, we sometimes have untrained, inexperienced and (sometimes) incompetent people in control of our emergency networks until they pass a certification test we all should know.  After all without emergency volunteers and expertise, there would be no ham radio (or may not be in the future).

Well stated, Jim.

By comparison, I had to undertake weeks of training, pass a test and spend some time in grade before I was permitted to be NCS of any Army MARS nets. And ARES..?

Yes, the fellow was big enough to apologize for a mistake, and IMO the problem boils down to that he was green and permitted to run a very public net during a major national emergency without any experience and probably not much training, either. So who is *really* responsible, and what can we learn to prevent future such embarrassments?

..Bill

I actually monitored this exchange, and Anthony handled it pretty well, even if he erred on the side of caution.

The plane's crew was asking for information about Biloxi, and W8ANT, following protocol, asked a couple of times to learn a call sign.  Based on what had been going on this was a way to separate whether this was yet another comment from the gallery that were being uttered along the way.

No call sign, and he was cordial about it when he said this "is a gray area" and said if they could come up with a call sign he'd be glad to help.

There was no way to verify that this was a C-130, or some bogus troll setting the guy up.

Compounding matters, someone apparently on board the plane named "Andrea" also participated, and I thought, oh great, Andrea Mitchell now is on board and wants a chat for her story on NBC tonight.

I'd give the guy a break.  Yes, he would have been given credit for using good judgment if he HAD provided the information, but I'd give him the benefit of the doubt in case he sniffed something phony about the whole situation.

Paul/VJB
--------------------
Here's his post to QRZ.com
___________

It was interesting, that during the SATERN Net tody, we had a Hurricane Hunter C-130 come on frequency and ask about current conditions in Buloxi, MS.  Most of his crew lives there.

It was very difficult to tell them that they had no privileges on frequency unless a)they had a licensed amateur aboard or b)life or death emergency, which the answers to both were "no".

They were told they could monitor but could not transmit.  Sucks we had to tell them that, but what choice did we have?


Anthony - W8ANT

I was the lawyer who said I wasn't a lawyer on that thread.  Yes, I think the guy should have gotten his Biloxi info.  But while he was flying in the eye of the 'cane, his request for info was not an "emergency."  However, as I found in 97.111(a)(3), think the aircraft qualified as a US Government Station, so the exchange would have been legal anyway.


I wasn't listening to the net so I can't say what the situation really sounded like.  So I can't tell whether or not the situation was clear or not.  I'll go with Paul's summary as accurate.  From all I've read of the incident as confirmed by Paul, the NCS, W8ANT was indeed in a tough spot.  I personally don't think he should have been NCS at all, based solely on his HF experience.  From all accounts he did a fine job.  So the gamble of letting a new HF op run the net went ok. 

When a newer ham asks a legal question, I try to research it and give him the legal answer.  As to the specifics of that particular sitauation, again, I wasn't there.

Idiotic ham hump

I apologize, but legal reasearch takes months and that is like nailing jello to the wall, every lawyer has a different opinion.  The NCS should have clarified to whom he was communicating and when established, should have passed the information.  If he couldn't make that deterimation then do as suggested, transmit the information in the clear to another station on frequency, or have another station give the report. 

These things can be assessed rather quickly by someone who has experience.

Well, technically he was following the rules which leads me to the question,  under what conditions are we allowed (or should talk to talk to non-liscenced, non-amateur radio stations, I guess considering the state of  emergency it could be considered a life and death situation.

If it  were me I would have given the guy the weather report. My attitude is screw the damned rules, I'll talk to whomever I deem it nessesary to  talk to under the circumstances. If some OO wants to make a fuss about it he can stick it. If the FCC wants to pull my ticket then so be it. I don;t care. If a transmission needs to be made I'm gonna make it license or no license, rules or no rules. Vital communications come first as far as I am concerned.
 

Speaking of training, how many of you know how to convert the current day to Julian?  Part of the training Bill mentioned? 

John, if an emergency exists, protection of life, property, health or similar circumstances, you are allowed transmit back to an official governmental agency to relay necessary or requested information concerning the emergency.

A state of emergency existed at the time of the exchange(declared on Friday by Pres. Bush)  and the net control admitted he identified who the transmitting station was.  Given that fact alone, he could have lawfully passed the information.  Although he should have asked another station to give the report to him or given it to another station if he were in doubt.  That is part of the training.

John, could you have done without this calculator?  Proper message handling requires many different aspects and you are to be commended for searching.

Okay, if I had to do a conversion (convoishin as they say in Brooklyn)  off the top of my head right now I would probably fail. It's been a long time since I've converted dates and I'm rusty. I am sure if I spent a little time reviewing the conversion I'd be able to do it fine. Of  course if I had lots and lots of dates to convert I'd probably use a computer.

This is how I remember it too, Jim. I can recall at least twice in the past when the Coast Guard came onto the frequency with no problems. Both times were in response to distress calls at sea. It's been a while but I think the CG station was N M N. They were alerted to the situation by a phone call and came onto frequency to handle the situation. They asked for specific info and called the station in distress. End of story.

It was always my understanding that government/military agencies are permitted on amateur frequencies in times of emergency, as stated by others. Paul has the idea with respect to trolls, and being new the fellow obviously had his hands full. But those who are worried that they need to consult the rule book to see if it's okay to talk to a military aircraft or station need to take a moment to get a little less full of their perceived self-importance and err on the side of common sense. I agree that a callsign is always nice, but even at that, a general reply to all stations listening can get you past that FCC enforcement-phobia. Though the request was not a direct emergency itself, it was related to the ongoing emergency.


I remember listening in on the Grenada operation back in the 80s. A college student at the medical school there (Mark Barettella?) was giving reports on one frequency which was declared as 'outgoing traffic only' with other nets for H&W and so on nearby. Someone calls in to the net and tries to ask Mark some questions and is told "this is an outgoing net only". He responds with "Mark, I'd just like to get your thoughts on the situation there...". Net control responds with something like "Are you DEAF or just plain stupid? This is an OUTGOING NET ONLY, do not transmit!". Silence.

Sometime later I read that it was none other than Dan Rather trying to get a story, likely through some ham who worked at CBS. It certainly explains the mentality of the situation.

Too bad we can't get the powers that be to add a Common Sense element as a requirement for getting licensed. No offense intended to the newbie net control, but perhaps someone should have given a bit more thought to who they turned an emergency net over to.

Pretty easy to become an arm-chair quarterback! Before New Orleans and other Gulf Coast cities are dry, many will be baptized by fire. It IS a major event and many are not prepared. Unfortunately, the finger pointing will come next.

Time to pull together and show the world how the U.S. and the free world responds with caring, kindness, and cooperation.

Hoopie, 

True enough for some, but having been personally involved in this stuff for the last 21+ years at some or other level, I can say with certainty that without criticism and identifying and acting on problem areas, it won't get any better. For example, you'd think that in the 21st Century 'we the people' would be prepared for such things on a local level as well as country-wide. Not so. New Orleans is a prime example: the cost for improving their levee system was considered too high. I wonder how it compares to the cleanup and recovery costs? The trick is not to put a happy face :D on it and move on, but to deal with it effectively; Ham radio net control or City Board member. There's certainly nothing wrong with keeping a positive attitude and hoping for the best, but you'd best be preparing for the worst long before it happens.


Agreed. Perhaps someone could get word to the losers who hosed one of the local N. O. police stations with gunfire two nights ago, then escaped into the French Quarter. I'm sure they were just venting, showing their frustration with the situation, or whatever other acceptable explanation has come along in the last politically-correct decade or so...

What a difference a disaster makes.  A major disaster in New York and two  leadesr responded with decisive responses.  A major disaster in New Orleans and we have heard almost nothing from the mayor, governor or legislature of Louisana.  Mississippi and Alabama is doing better.

Some of the decisions in New York were wrong, but the population kept their head down and pulled together then critized.  Here we have critical remarks befoe the problems are solved by a former mayor of New Orleans.

This incident proves we need trained personnel in the ranks of radio operators and each and every one of us are at fault.  We all, as amateurs, should be trained in emergency communications, for we never know when we can be of assistance or called upon to perform.

This has been our lesson, let's not forget it.  I must say, that the group on this board probably is less critical and more homogenous than any other group with which I am associated. 

I have encourged the guy who lead the net at the time because he was willing to step up and try.  More than I can say for several groups that populate 75, 40 and 20 meters. 

I have tried not to give destructive analysis  but constructive information.  I hope he understands as you all do.

     The FCC has no jurisdiction over the US military. The armed forces have their own "regulatory body" for spectrum usage. ( I cant remember the name)
      Also, unless the FCC has changed their regs, one may use any frequency, any mode, any time and talk to anyone (involved) during  emergency situations (anyone still have a comercial licensing manual handy? or access to the CFR??).
     klc

<snip>

NTIA - National Telecommunications and Information Agency
www.ntia.doc.gov

What does eugenics have to do with anything that is happening there. Poor people are dying, bodies are piling up and rotting, people have no place to go, they have no food, no water, they are wallowing in filth, excrement and probably serious disease soom. I


Who are you to prejudge who is a "dependent of the state"   and how they are acting, let alone the justification or condemnation of their actions, especially when some of these very people are potentially on the virge of death. It's very easy for us to sit in the privacy  of our safe and untouched air conditioned homes, offices and judge the behaviors of others who are trying to survive in a destroyed  and looded city.


I don't understand Bruce ?? Which people are proving empirical evidence of darwins theory ??


The country is coming together quite well Bruce. Today I donated some of my earnings to the red Cross in hope that  it will reach and assist some of those who are wallowing in a living hell down on NO. many  of my friends and co-workers have donated to the situation. Several of us have even offered our IT skills and expertise if needed in any way shape or form. Americans throughout the country have offered their time, assistance and help. Some have even offered their homes, room and board, clothing, food,  The people of the United States and the people of the world have come together quite well to help those who overnight had their city destroyed and have become homeless, jobless refugees as a result of this disaster. And the really nice thing is that most of us who have reached  out to help in whatever way we can are not looking to prejudge, judge  or condemn people or view them as evidence Darwins theorem or eugenics. Americans want to help.

My observations were to human nature John, acutually more to the point of the lack of personal responsibility.
The thing that gets is me is the way that the news media seems to play up the worse of the worse down there, I turn on the TV and its doom and gloom.
I'm just stunned people did not take the order to evac, despite two days of warning, then tax and overload the very services needed to bail out those who deserve help.

Anyway, I'm off topic, this was to be an discussion on the USAF op coming up on amateur freqs.
I've taken the liberty to my eariler posting comments as a unnecessary addition to this topic.

Many were literally too poor to afford transport out of the city. There were numerous reports of people trying to borrow enough money for gas or bus fare out of New Orleans.  Many more simply did not have anywhere to go.

I don't know why you even respond to this crap John.

If "political correctness" is what makes me squirm when I read this stuff then so be it.  Eugenics . . . Darwin . . .sterilization. . .always seems to pop up when were talking about black folks.  That's just plain wrong and hopefully reflects the thoughts of only a fringe minority in this hobby.  If your feeling no empathy for these people and can't separate the bad apples from the masses perhaps you need to look within.  In my mind we have a moral obligation to provide every person in that mess food , water and shelter as quickly as possible.   Likewise the lawlessness needs to be brought under control ASAP.  73 de Ed

Bruce ??? Earth to Bruce ?? What planet are you on  ?? It IS the worst of the worst down there. It IS nothing but gloom and doom down there. An entire CITY is functionally wiped out and may never be again. Thousands upon thousands of people are HOMELESS., they have no jobs, no drinkable water, no food, no place to go... NOTHING...NADA!!  They are wiped out. People who are sick wuith heart conditions, diabetes, strokes, people in need of routine medical care and medications are stuck, they have to go without it. Some of them have already dropped dead in the Superdome and there was NOTHING anyone could do to help them or save them. Dead bodies are floating around and nobody can even deal with it yet. The potential for rapid spread of disease is extremely high.  No toilets, bo  sanitation. It's a living hell for those people down there , right now This is one of the WORST natural disasters in US history, it's  nothing but pure hell and doom and gloom. Don;t you get it ??


Bruce, they couldn;t evacuate,  there was no way  for  them  to evacuate. Many of those people are poor, they don;t own cars. There was no busses running, no public transportation available to them.  Most of them had no practicval way to get out in time to avoid the storm. Not everyone in this great land is wealthy enough to afford the priveledge of a private car, boat or plane.  I think there are some  people who  simply feel  these people are poor and thus we should write them off and forget about them, or that somehow it is their own fault that they are in this horrendous predicament. .  This is a time when people need help  not judgement.

With this logic all the criminals down there shooting, looting and raping must be sick and can't walk John?

From USA TODAY on 8/29 (before Katrina hit):

That was what I was trying to make reference to in my previous post, Jim. Exactly. Of course there are decent, helpless people suffering in this disaster as in all disasters. Probably the majority, even. My remark was meant more to encompass the entire situation with respect to the inexperienced net control as well as the entire civil infrastructure down there. Simply saying nice sounding things about 'those poor people', throwing out money after the fact or anything else that isn't done pre-emptively is too little, too late.

Bruce, I'm sorry to have missed your original post since you have removed it. I agree in principal with what you're saying here since the 'feel good' folks out there have created a lot of this dependency on government over the last 3-4 decades. It's true that many ill, crippled, or otherwise poor folk were not able to evacuate. The sickening part is a city and state government that has known for sometime the devastation lurking around the corner and not only didn't take corrective measures with the 'safety net' (levee system), but apparently had no organized evacuation plan in place for these people. Had they provided this, it would be much easier for law enforcement to get in there and wipe out the slime element doing the real looting, raping, murdering, arson and the rest.

Jim is correct that all of us are responsible to the extent that we enjoy ham radio as a hobby with far too few giving anything back in the 'service' aspect. That should be a much greater concern to us than BPL, elimination of the CW requirement, or anything else. If the FCC really wants to save money, they could just as easily eliminate ham radio and not have to deal with licensing, enforcement, or the rest of it. With very little cutting edge discovery being done via ham radio these days, public service is about the only thing we have left to claim.

We have no control over natural disasters happening. We have total control over the man-made (or is it 'people-made'?) effects, including pre-disaster training and preparedness. Unfortunately most are content with doing nothing, or waiting until after the fact.

The thread seems to have drifted off topic, so I'll continue the tangent. Listening to 14.3965 or there abouts late this morning, heard a conversation about Houston PD already having their hands full with some of the refugees from New Orleans. Seems the low-life which were rescued along with the good law-abiding residents of New Orleans were roaming the parking lot of the Houston Astrodome and attempting to and/or robbing the people of Houston.

Nothing like bitting the hand that feeds you. Gotta wonder if mankind should interfere with the Good Lord when he inserts the hose to give the earth an enema.  :-\

Hoopie,

Since 2000, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers has been studying the idea of reinforcing the levees to withstand a Category 5 storm, the strongest on the Saffir-Simpson Hurricane Scale. The 300 miles of existing levees, at 17 feet, were designed to protect New Orleans – parts of which are as much as 10 feet below sea level – from no more than a Category 3 hurricane.

"We certainly understood the potential impact of a Category 4 or 5 hurricane," Lt. Gen. Carl Strock, the Corps' chief of engineers, told reporters Thursday in a telephone briefing.

Last spring, the Army engineers' New Orleans office complained that budget cuts proposed by the Bush administration and approved by Congress "will prevent the Corps from addressing these pressing needs."

Thompson said the Corps' arguments contain "significant merit."

"What concerns me is the fact that for the last several budgets, the president has pretty much zeroed out a lot of the Corps' work," Thompson said. "We [in Congress] always had to go back in and try to help. I have not seen flood control as a real priority in this president's budgets."

The levee construction is one of two massive public works projects that hurricane experts say could have protected New Orleans from Katrina.

Since 1990, Louisiana's congressional delegation has sought funding – a total of $14 billion – to restore the state's coastal marshes and barrier islands. Scientists say the marshes and islands act as a first line of defense for New Orleans and the region's other populated areas by absorbing much of a storm's force.

Built to prevent incessant flooding, the New Orleans levees also interrupted the natural flow of water to the marshes south of the city. Before the levees were built, that flow carried sediment that could restore the wetlands, which are under constant barrage from waves and wind.

According to LSU's Hurricane Center, which has studied the matter extensively, more than 1 million acres of wetlands have disappeared since 1930. LSU scientists estimate that the area is losing 28,000 acres a year – the equivalent of a football field every half hour.

"At the start of every new hurricane season on June 1," Stone said, "Louisiana has become more vulnerable to storm surge inundation and surge damage than it was the previous hurricane season."

Yet, 15 years after the restoration began, Congress has appropriated just $540 million of the $14 billion needed to complete the project.

"This is a regrettable demonstration of ignoring the magnitude of the problem," Stone said. "That could well have retarded some of the water finding its way" into the city.

"What's been missing is a sense of urgency," said U.S. Rep. Bobby Jindal (R-La.), a longtime proponent of coastal restoration. After Katrina, he said, "hopefully, it will help us convince people who weren't convinced before."

Some scientists, along with public officials, have questioned whether the project's benefits would be worth its cost.

Stone, referring to some of the worst casualty estimates, put it in starker terms: "How do you weigh the economic value against four or five or six thousand deaths?"

Staff writer Julia Malone in Washington contributed to this article.


Alan Judd writes for The Atlanta Journal-Constitution. E-mail: ajudd@ajc.com



 
 
   
 
 
 
 
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IIn a disaster of this magnitute where the need for sheer survival is essential it can be expected  that some people are going to do things like looting out of desperation. Indeed that was the case  in new Orleans where some people looted for things like food, drinkable water, medications and other things required to sustain  themselves and / or keep  themselves and their families alive. Under the circumstances at hand I would consider such "looting" as more a matter of desperation and survival  than "looting". For many stuff like water, foor, medicine, clothing, etc. is vital and taking it as a means of pure survival is par for the course under the extremely unusual and deadly circumstances.

However, there are a small minority of people who are wickedly taking advantage of the situation for personal gains or simply because they can exploit the situation and get away with it. Thus we have heard of such things as rapes, shooting and other related incidents. Such incidents are not due to "desperation" or"survival" or direct need, they are due to sheer arrogance and cruelty.

However, we have to be  careful to recognize that such people  form a minority down there. The masses of people are in a dire life and death situation from which there is no easy escape and they need all the help and supplies they can get. We have to be carefull not to judge or condemn the masses based on the action of a handful of idiots.

Jim, many of the "looters" down there were seen stealing things like food, drinkable water, medicine, etc. It's easy for us to sit here  miles and miles away  where we can't see, hear, feel or smell the stench of this disaster and declare "how dare someone steal  something". It is another thing when you are starving, have no water to drink, are diabetic and have no insulin, or asthma medication,meedical care or when your child is dying of thirst or hunger and you are compelled to gain access to what you need as a matter of survival. Sure, technicaly it is wrong to take anything that does not belong to  you regardless of the circumstances. A  crime is a crime is a crime, whether you do it for the heck of it, or whether you  do it out of desparation and survival. However, as human beings with brains and common sense I think we are  capable of drawing a line of distinction between some low life slob who takes advantage of a situation like this to rape someone  or shoot someone, or to steal for pure personal  gain, versus someone who steals  a bottle of water or some food so they can stay alive and/or keep their family alive. Under the circukmstances at hand I think we are  compelled to use our human senses ahead of technical criteria.

As far as the lowlifes who are raping, shooiting,  or stealing tv sets, computers etc. well, that is just plain wrong. Yet, a rational thinking person can clearly see the difference between that type of  crime and let's say a man who  takes some baby formula to feed his child or a woman who takes a vial of insulin to keep her grandmother alive,  or  someone taking a bottle of clean drinking water.. It is also important to realize that most of the rapists and shooters are likely a relatively small but yet very visible minority down there.

What I  find most amazing that in what is probably  the worst diaster in US history  where virtually an entire city is destroyed there is such a focus on a minority of "bad guys" and such a priority on judging the  masses of  people criminals and condemning them as "iirresponsible" when the focal thought should be about helping these people survive this tragedy .

.

Well for some reason the TV networks mostly show those people doing the looting.  Our brave newscasters are afraid to get pictures of the shooters and rapists.  Gives me the impression most of them can walk or could have gotten to a shelter and stayed there.  Wonder what the city buses, city police cars, parish trucks and sheriff's office vehicles did the three days before the storm struck. 

By the way, where is the Governor of the Great State of Louisana?  I know Bush spoke to her following the storm.  I wonder what she requested?  He promised all three governors anything they asked to be delivered.

I hate to see this.  It seems as if those who get something for nothing are the most critical.  I can't help it John that is what I am seeing on CNN, NBC, CBS, ABC and PMSNBC.  Show me someone who is appreciative and I will change my views more to the left.  Tell me John, what are we looking at, Downtown Baghdad?

Funny in the Tsunami coverage, we didn't see this side as prevalent as we are now.

John, I'll say this and then I'll leave this thread alone.

First, this is a terrible tragedy, aside from 9-11, the worse tragedy of my lifetime.

However, unlike 9-11, not all the folks there are victims.

John, you express surprise at "the focus" on the bad guys.
Why are you surprised? Of course the nation is surprised and shocked the behavior of these folks; it deviates from the acceptable moral values and norms of the majority of fellow citizens. Most Americans do not loot, shoot at police and medical workers, rape and pillage during natural disasters. Such is beastly behavior being carried out in New Orleans by beasts that should be shot down. It reminds me of the madness and mindless savagery of the LA riots.

The government warned for more than 2 days, on radio, TV and other public media, the need to evac, it was "mandatory", not an option, not a suggestion, not a good idea. As for transportation, public transport was available, plenty of it. There were options, don’t left Jesse Jackson and his ilk deceive you. As Bill O’Rielly pointed out last night, there is a significantly sized element that stayed just to raise havoc, chaos, loot, shoot and take advantage of the situation. In ironic poetic justice many of those became victims themselves.

Speaking of deception just saw the “Reverend” Jackson on CNN saying that the response was slow because the victims are poor and black. The "Reverend" even went so far as to compare the situation in New Orleans to the 246 years of suffering slavery. Once again the "Masters of Deception" play the race card, distracting from the work at hand. Note to “Reverend” Jackson, hurricanes and tropical storms are color-blind.

God forbid, what did we do 5 or 50 years ago before FEMA? Americans came together, took personal responsibility and pulled themselves up by the bootstraps. Even today my staff was taking exactly that. The consensus was if this is the best the government can do with a disaster in a moderate size city with two days warning, what are they going to do in the event of an unplanned terrorist attack on a major metropolitan area?

Do those folks need help, you bet! They deserve every thing we can give them as a nation. However, if there is a lesson to be learned here, and everything is a teaching experience, it is NOT to depend on the government, local, state or federal to bail you out in the event of a disaster. Be prepared and heed warnings.

My point John, interesting how it drew you out, was that instead of just taking care of themselves, so many of victims are stuck in a stimulus-response mode, just like Pavlov’s dogs. They can’t or won’t seem to fend for themselves, the point I was making was that this was a result of decades of breeding out personal independence and responsibility. It is a state which psychologists term “learned helplessness”. I can think of no greater injustice and more evil lie to teach people. Political leades and "Masters of Deception" have stolen these folk's sense of self-worth and independence and replaced it with the enslavement of dependence. Most egregious of all, this has been done largely for political reasons, to consolidate power, by those on both sides of the aisle. The “Masters of Deception” are again at work here, blaming it on the race card, the “evil” Bush administration for not raising the level of the levies, the slow response of FEMA because the victims are poor and black, anything to divide and conquer and not deal with the real problem, a natural disaster of near biblical proportions.

That was my point; it’s not about skin color, but the content of one’s character.

Certainly our hearts and prayers are with the folks in New Orleans, and with those working in extreme conditions to restore public order and services.
They are folks who have not believed the lie, have not bought into learned helplessness, and for that we all both thankful and grateful.

One other thing is that more people who live North, South, and East of New Orleans, in Missippissippi and Alabama were impacted as well and you haven't heard of the chaos remaining there today.  Wonder what happened in Grand Isle, LA?  Anyone know?  Hummmmm!

If I had got caught there, I would have made every effort to get out any way I could, even if it meant hiking out on foot, rather than staying there and starving or dying from disease.  But according to a report on Fox News, there was a check point along the only unflooded road leading out of the city, and they wouldn't let anyone past.

Jim, thiose who are not dead are quite greatfull. They are greatfull for their lives. Some are in such misery they probably  wish they were dead. The bottom line is people are desperate. They are in crisis. They have no food, no drinkable water. It''s not easy for  people to smile, feel high and chipper when they are  up to their necks in filthy water, are watching themselves and their families dying of thirst, have no food, no medicine and have no place to even go to the toilet as they watch the dead carcasses  of their neighbors float  by them. It's easy for press people and  others to sit in comfotable air conditions  homes and offices miles away from the reality of this disaster and judge people as looters, criminals, ungreatful welfare recipients, portray the masses of people as rapists, shooters , etc because of  the actions of a few lowlife bums. At the same time who am I to judge a person walking out of a supermarket with bottled water  or some food or medicine as a "looter" or "criminal". For all I know he is simply doing what he has to do to keep himself  and his family  alive, i.e. survive. Heck, under similar circumstances I might do the same darned thing if the life of my family and neighbors was at stake. What I am saying is that people need help, dire help  and we as a  nation have  an obligation to set  our partisan left versus right views down, to set  aside our prejudgement and condemnation of people aside and give these people every bit of help we can to get them through this in every way we can.

John, we both see the same thing but interpert it differently.  First I see people stealing everthing and I have a hard time understanding how one can eat a TV set or a Stereo?  How can one eat a gun, bullets or tennis shoes, watches, rings and other such items?

We both see the same thing, people in need, and criminal, looters.  I choose to believe the looters and criminals are threatning the survival of those who are not and are more numerous than you believe.  While my words paint a picture of the entire bunch are criminals to you, I assure I do not believe that.  Your words to me paint a picture that these incidents are not happening except in very limited cases, also not true. 

Ffools rush in where angles fear to tread.  The actions of those who are carjacking where there is no fuel, looting items of no practical value in a disaster, stealig from others trapped, then have the unmitigated gall to shoot at rescue personne, is despicable and delayed the rescue of good citizens.  Rescue the good with the threat of retribution to the criminals and leave the criminals to prey on themselves.  Or when the authorities can, arrest the criminals and put them under the prison

l

 In almost every single naturaly disaster that has occurred in the history of the US there was public disorder and crime. In the Johnstown floods there was crime and looting. In the great hurricane that smashed  through New England there was looting and crime on the streets of cities and towns. In places ravaged by fire, tornadoes, titdal waves, in plane crashes, etc there has been crime, looting and other despicable behavior. But  when we look back upon those events we don't focus on the crime and looting and proclaim that the victims are criminals. Yet in this incident for some strange reason some people seem to have made it (crime) the central focus of the entire event and have used  it to largely stereotype the victims of this calamity and brand them as lawless criminals. I have even heard some go so far as to claim that the reason there are so many victims is because many of them deliberately stayed behing just so they could sieze the opportunity to rob, cheat,  steal, loot, rape, and shoot.  I am not saying anyone on this board has these feeling but, these are the kinds of vibes I am picking up listening to some of the conservative  right-wing media talking heads and those who talk to them. That is what I find appalling.

The able bodied criminals did stay and the storm made criminals out of honest citizens..  My question remains unanswered.  Where were the assetts available to the mayor?  the Sheriff?  The city Council?  The State Legislature?  The Governor?  They not only failed to act, but did not request assistance.  One call to Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Missouri, or any other state would have had the National Guard ready, remember they had 3, count'em three days, warning.  What did they do?  Sit on their thumb and forefinger.  They could have had busses from as far away as Shereveport in there picking up people prior to the storm, and that is in their own state.

Poor planning, poor execution, poor response and blame others.  This is what the "conserative talking heads" are speaking about and the others are avoiding.  Many Americans, not having been involved in something this massive, cannot understand what is being said.  The Pelosis, Kennedys, Leheys, Schumers and other assorted populists would not understand for they do not comprehend history nor care as long as they can buy their way into power with votes of the common people.   Sadly people who have never seen the destructioon of nature agree with them and continue to cast a vote in their favor.  I certainly hope we never experience a mad made disaster such as a "dirty bomb".

Tell me John, have you ever witnessed what a simple tornado can do?  This tornado was over 150  miles wide and over 400 miles long.  That is a lot, and here we are debating about New Orleans, where the planning and execution of a disaster plan (that did not exhist) failed.  I am just appreciative that I don't live in a state so guilty of corruption and stupidity.  Although now that I think of it, Oklahoma is not far behind. ;D

By the way John:


Al Oubre K5DPG, Acting SEC for Louisiana, asks this resource request be
made known throughout the West Gulf and Delta Divisions.


We are still recruiting Amateur Radio operators for Washington parish
and Covington LA (North end of the Lake Ponchartrain causeway).

Some of the tasks in this area are to provide Amateur Radio
communications support for Red Cross shelters and Southern Baptist
Convention Disaster Relief efforts (mass feeding and chain saw debris
removal crews) in the area of Covington LA.  Communications is expected
to be tactical voice, perhaps portable, maybe mobile, on VHF/UHF FM.
HF voice (40 & 75M) and Winlink are additional desired capabilities for
all assignments.

Volunteer facilities are anticipated to become available at First
Baptist church in Covington (16333 Highway 1085) include:  shower
trailer (with towels), kitchen, and sleeping in the gym or classrooms.
You will need your own air mattress, sleeping pad, cot, and bedding.
It may have air conditioning some time this weekend.  Conditions at
specific assignments may be primitive.

It is highly unlikely that you will be reimbursed for any expenses.

Please let me know of your interest.  Rather than individual e-mails,
register here and put COVINGTON LA as the first entry in the comments
block, followed by your expected date and time of arrival and
departure:    katrina.ab2m.net   Please use this method even if you
have previously registered at the site.

Jerry Reimer, KK5CA
ARES Section Emergency Coordinator
ARRL South Texas Section




Why don't you volunteer?

First,
        been battling a spyware pain in the butt,, think I have it under control now..

       my gal has a grand baby, son & daughter in law who live in down town new orleans!  but they made it out before Katrina hit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
- whew - their place was not far from the canal, maybe flooded we don't know ? ?

anyone at all involved with the emergency traffic in here?  I tried but can't get in from here in vt, at least on 75mtrs  . .

[quote author=wa1knx link=topic=5515.msg41471#msg41471 dat

       my gal has a grand baby, son & daughter in law who live in down town new orleans!  but they made it out before Katrina hit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
- whew - their place was not far from the canal, maybe flooded we don't know ? ?

anyone at all involved with the emergency traffic in here?  I tried but can't get in from here in vt, at least on 75mtrs  . .

Which Canal?  If it is 17th street, the house is probably underwater.  I have yet to hear anyone in NO but, as of last afternoon, there was a station in Slidell.

So... what does everyone think about the ham who refused the USAF C-130  ??? ??? ???

It's Bush's fault.   ;D

,

I knew it!  :D
George, you are just too predicatable.

John, in answer to your question, I think the ham was a ass and made a very stupid decision.
And a even more stupid one to boast about it on QRZ.


From Hamsexy.com
Thursday, September 1st, 2005 at 7:23 pm by VE3HBD

I’m sure you’re expecting to see Clyde’s “Ham told an Air Force C-130 to go fly a kite” story here. Well, the situation has changed, so our story has changed.

KC2KIT, a good friend of Hamsexy and a player on the related thread on QRZ.COM has spoken to Anthony W8ANT about this matter. In their telephone conversation, W8ANT stepped to the plate and not only explained his actions, but apologized for the miscommunication and for his comments to KC2KIT. We here at Hamsexy admire W8ANT’s ability to be humble and recognize when they make a mistake (something that is lacking in this hobby), so we in turn would like to thank Anthony for doing the right thing in this situation.

We removed the article in this space not out of some sort of attempt at censorship (this isn’t the site for that), but to show our appreciation and thanks.

ANy further comments on this issue are appreciated, and we thank KC2KIT for helping us with this issue.

Take care all!

- Bryan VE3HBD, editor HAMSEXY.COM

Why did I see that coming...?  :-*

He just got his 1X3, W8ANT, changed to one of those new-fangled 2 X 2 callsigns.

Click  here (http://www.qrz.com/ib-bin/ikonboard.cgi?s=e36f29e11a6168ee690de5c79025fcd8;act=ST;f=7;t=100581;st=0) for thread he initiated on the subject, on QRZ.com.

You have to give this guy credit for doing something his trainers could not. He was man enough to put the situation out in the light for the benifit of the next net control.