The AM Forum

Good Day All,

 Would someone Please Explain to me What is So visually disgusting about the Ten Commandments. If i see one more news excerpt about this i'm going Puke.

Common sense is gone, jurys believe the impossibe lies of the lawyers. Our legal system has stretched the "Constitution" and "Bill of Rights".

Being reminded to tell the truth and or seek the truth before a trial, during the trial, and in deliberations: can't have the "Ten Commandments" lurking about.

Hoopie,

Exactly, the idea of "moral absolutes" is gone, outdated, old fashioned, not hip.

Just watch the Politically Correct "Beautiful People" from Hollywood, say what you want, lie when convenient, sleep with whomever or whatever you wish, marry today, and divorce tomorrow.

It seems the concept is to find all your "happiness" here and now, and pretend that there is no afterlife.

Any wonder with the suicide, divorce rate, drug and alcohol abuse and death rates are so high for these folks?

Sad thing is that being icons of popular culture they serve as examples….should be examples of what not to do.

Thank God I am Politically Incorrect!

It's stupid, really.  The problem with the Ten Commandments is that it comes from one particular set of religious beliefs.  It's the effective promotion of only one set of religious beliefs that is the problem, not the Commandments themselves.

I remember as a kid, going to school where the Ten Commandments were posted on the wall at the back of the room.  My own family was quite secular, so school was the only place I saw them.  I would turn and ponder them...

They were from Exodus 20, and they went something like this:

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I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

Thou shalt not murder.

Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Thou shalt not steal.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

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"Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord they God in vain."  What did that mean?  And some of the other things: the "six days" and the "out of Egypt" and the "sabbath day" were all about one religious teaching only.

Graven images?  What was that about, I wondered.  As for not killing or lying or stealing, or even coveting (hmm, what did that mean?), I had no problem with those commandments.  What was this thing called adultery? Was that when grown ups acted bossy?  I had no clue.  Jealous? Having other gods "before Me?"  I wan't too clear what was meant, but I got the idea of wrath from "I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me" - well, we don't talk about that too much.  But I found this a little reassuring: "And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments."

Over the years, I have grown uncomfortable - not so much with the Commandments, but with the people who expound upon them.  Some people seem to be trying to throw them in my face like an overgrown sibling: "You better... or else Mommy and Daddy..."  Others want to hijack the fear of the Diety, and use it for their own purposes.  I have a problem with people like that.

Maybe some sort of a collage would be better; the Ten Commandments, and other pronouncements of right behavior from systems of law such as the US Constitution, and other belief systems.

FB Bacon.

Nothing wrong with the commandments. Atheism is a religion for some also. Should we ban that too?

If the state would only encourge the public posting of the ten commandments the hundreds of Christian denominations would come together and what . . . .?  Probably fight to the death over the meaning and application of these rules to modern life.  There is no single Christian voice, why encourage the state to mouth one?   Ed

Nah couldn't be. Hey Bacon!

Basically symbolic.  Seeing them posted doesn't offend me, but I think there are more pressing issues to get involved with and can't see spending tax money debating it in court.  This is just another bogus issue to keep attention away from what really counts, just like the proposed flag desecration amendment.

Cloth-and-dye flags and posters made of stone, wood, metal or paper don't maim or kill people, nor do they guarantee basic human rights.

ZLR's question as to "What is So visually disgusting about the Ten Commandments."

The display of the "Ten Commandments" in or on a courthouse and or state property isn't forcing anyone to follow that religion, just add more varied displays is a simple answer that should please the masses.

This county was formed on certain beliefs. Those beliefs let the beleaguered masses immigrate to this country. If those who don't like the "Ten Commandments" or don't like its display, please go back to the old county where your grandparents and others left to get away from religious persecution and tyanny. Maybe things are better back in the old homeland this century.

Be damned glad someone had enough sense to form a country with "our" beliefs, the constitution, and bill of rights.

What is disgusting; the errosion of those beliefs and rights!

So please, those who can't handle "our beliefs" get the hell out of the U.S., the al-Quaia is looking for a few good volunteers.

Hoopie,

Hi Guys,

 Speaking of the case, How many Judges pepper their decisions with religious  Anointing.. is that fare as well.?, or Lawyers, I just like how it's pointed out as some kind of Demon to pick a word, Oh Look the Ten Commandments..This courtroom is Biased...Da...throw the case out...

 It's like we're not providing the meal with a full course so the next gen can decide for themselves, pick a course and enjoy, sort of thing is my idea i guess.

Art and Philosphy in all it's forms should never be squashed, and taken away to be shelved.

What pisses me off about all of this is ACLU decries the fact that if you have anything resembling a religious artifact in a government structure, you are subscribing to that religion. I hate to sound like Irb here but the Founding Fathers who framed the Constitution wrote that you would have freedom OF religion not freedom from religion. It was styled so that you wouldn't have something similar to the 'Church of England'. Although anyone claiming atheism back then would have be labeled a heretic. But what I don't understand is why are the atheists so afraid of something they don't believe exists anyway?

Well actually I think our president might benefit from having a copy of the Ten Commandments on his wall.  Maybe then he would obey the one about not bearing false witness, for a change.  Come to think of it, his whole administration should do that as well.

The ACLU...Ahh when i was a young man and they were in the formative stages how i read everything they put out, and cases fought, and surely i was  on the band wagon playing, a young mans fancy questioning the establishment purposely and so on...great days.. :D Hair Peace Bed Peace remember boys...LOL...John Lennon...so full of energy... everything anew.

So now we're here and being used to "anew" then, binding contradiction, them today falling short of the original concepts in my mind, older now and less bolder, But, still American Civil Liberties Union, Civil Liberties...they're taking away man Not adding "to" the common good.

at least in my mind, such as it is... 8)

Notice that in Iraq the issue is between Shi'ites and Sunnis.  You don't hear much from the atheist community anywhere in the middle east.  It is a matter of which religious belief system you subscribe to, not whether or not you subscribe to a religious belief.

I wonder how many atheists and agnostics exist within the Iraqi population?  They probably just keep silent in the interest of self preservation, since they would be looked upon as "infidels" along with Jews and Christians.  Remember, before 11SE01, the Taliban in Afghanistan received world attention not for sheltering Bin Laden, but for blowing up the ancient Buddhist statues that had existed on the sides of mountains there for over 1500 years.

There is, or at least used to be, a significant Jewish community in Iran.  I had quite a few Iranian classmates at university back in the early 60's, and nearly all were Jewish.  They all expressed the same hatred towards the Shah as did the Islamic fundamentalists before the revolution.  

There is a significant native Christian community in Iraq, just as in Lebanon.

Subsequent reason why that part of the world is in peril, so much so it's effecting everyone. There has to be "Question" no one human can be so solace and cold at such a level as displayed by those folks, it's uncanny, it's unerving, it's Not Healthy Mentally,  it has to thrive from Force of will over others those problems over there.

In all human hearts lies the question, sooner or later, your going to ask it..

They're running over here by the truck loads.. it's not just all about money and greed...Freedom to think Freely...and act independently...

The ten commandments doesn;t belong posted in a courthouse any more than a copy of the Koran, or the tenets of satanism. Posting religious doctrine on the walls of a court implies that the court subscribes to a particular religious doctrine as a part of it's function. In America a court of law is supposed to represent all people FAIRLY  and REGARDLESS of race, religion or skin colour. It would therefore make sense that such doctrine as the ten commandments 9which represents a specific religion) be left out of the courtroom. It doesn;t belong there.  For those who are so religious that they can't spend a few hours in court without seeing the ten commandments I suggest the following. I am sure the court would not object to an individual carrying a small personal pocket sized version of the ten commandments which they can occaisionally pull out and read during the duration of time that they must spend in the court.  That should satisfy everyone. The individual can read his/her own ten commandments by personal choice and be happy. And the individuals (like myself)  who prefer not having the court shove a particular religions doctrine down their throat will also be happy. See, problem solved and everyone goes home a happy camper and nobody's rights were violated.

Hello John thank you for your thoughts,

 It's a herdle i'm having a hard time over coming, it'll pass, in the mean time i'd like to enter this for your thoughts, on any given day we are subject to issues of health, food intake, visual intake, audio intake, Sleep or lack of etc, regardless of position or place, prior to or leaving from a courthouse, fine, so on any given day anything is possible from any prospective given outside criteria.

 So, in this Blank Public Building that is Off limits to any outside Philosphy flooded with Human beings suspect to any of the data i've entered here HOW do WE guarantee that i'm recieving perfect Law, see it's the logic of the thing John it's flawed, from the get go.

 Regardless of what is or isn't displayed on the walls or on the sidewalk outside we are still Suspect to our environment.

It'll Pass John it's a Logic thing i'm having...

actually, I'm sort of with Bruce with this one.  The 10 commandments
make for a reasonable basis of behavior, thus ok to have posted for
the public.  you can take God completely out of the picture and the guidelines still stand on there own merit. . .

Exactly, much of the law and culture of this country is directly based upon those 10 simple laws.
Even the most “Politically Correct” among us would be hard pressed to disagree with the bulk of the wisdom which is contained in the 10 Commandments.

Remove that and post a Koran and you no longer have the United States.
Each attempt to do so only further erodes the wisdom, values and principals which made this country the greatest in the world.

Despite what an earlier poster's thoughts, the majority of major religions in this country, nay in the world, are based upon the 10 Commandments.
It is simply foolish to think that said religions would fight over the very basis of their founding. Do not most faiths agree that murder, stealing, adultry, etc. are wrong?
Indeed if all that goes in the guise of religion were boiled down to what is contained in the 10 Commandments there would be much less strife and discontent in the world.


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To steal Bill O'Reilly's line, that this country was founded on Judeo-Christian fundementals. If you don't like it, give me all your money. Because every penny and every dollar has "In God We Trust". Now every government oath of office and every admonishment given to courtroom testimony ends with "So Help Me God!" Like 'Prego,' its in there, whether you like it or not. To coin the phrase at one of the local churches here, "No God, no peace; Know God, know peace."

I competely disagree. A court of law is about law and justice. The 10 commandments is about religion. It doesn't belong in a courtroom any more than it belongs in the Department of Motor Vehicles . Those religious folks who follow  the ten commandments have ample opportunity to look at them, read them, study them, and, obey them without them being posted on a courtroom wall.  The doctrine of a particular religion does not have to be posted in public. And not allowing it to be posted in public space does not violate anyone's freedom of religion.

You mean that they say essentially the same thing.  So why not post a collage of all of these statements?  Or only several of them, if that would take up too much space.  Wouldn't it actually carry more weight that all of these beliefs call for a high standard of behavior?

..

Why do we have to compromise our heritage for that of other cultures?
Why tear down what is already built?
The 10 Commandments as given to Moses are a guidebook for life, given by God, how can man improve on that?

Have you ever looked at the front of the building which houses the Supreme Court of the United States?

Care to guess the gentleman in the center of the work?
I'll give you a hint, its not anyone from the ACLU.


(http://www.reclaimamerica.org/PAGES/WhatWE/WhatsMEDIA/SupremeCtMoses.jpg)

It is actually Moses holding the 10 Commandments, I think that clearly states the principals which this country holds dear.
If the highest court in the land holds those principals dear, thats good enough for me.

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In a More Defined role I post this I found

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2005-02-28-commandments-edit_x.htm


On down the page I quote:

 "That Unity will occur only when these Spectacles are moved out of the Town Square and into the Private Space of each Church,Synagogue and Mosque"

 This is Interesting and useful, in a letter from John Quincy Adams found Here:

http://www.christianparents.com/ffathers.htm

and i quote the Web Page Writer: " Explains the Constitution as dependent upon the virtues proclaimed in the Declarition of Independence. That's why the ten Commandments are in Stone on the Supreme Court Building."

Now I don't know if they are there or Not, but it comes to mind by this Furthering Seperation of the Dieties Gov and Religion and subsequent actions of the Gov, it's furthering it's own agenda..Seperation of the people and the Gov[State], for the people and by the people then the people should do the choosing not the Courts or the managers of the iinfrastructure.

Interesting.

I think what it comes down to Jack is the burning desire by certain fringe elements in this country to remove any concept of God and replace it with goverment.

Remember, Rome fell not from without, but from within.



...

Bruce i posted right after you Good Picture OM are the commandments there i can't see them I see the Tablets..

From these photos, our goverment's foundations seem pretty clear to me.


(http://www.ten-commandments.us/ten_commandments/images/moses.jpg)
Supreme Court


(http://www.humaneventsonline.com/story-images/god1.jpg)
Moses with the Ten Commandments in the rotunda of the Library of Congress


(http://www.humaneventsonline.com/story-images/god3.jpg)
Moses with the Ten Commandments inside the Supreme Court's courtroom


(http://www.humaneventsonline.com/story-images/god4.jpg)
"Liberty of Worship" statute resting on the Ten Commandments outside the Ronald Reagan Building


(http://www.humaneventsonline.com/story-images/god5.jpg)
The Ten Commandments in the floor of the National Archives


(http://www.humaneventsonline.com/story-images/god14.jpg)
An excerpt from Abraham Lincoln's second inaugural speech carved into the interior of the Lincoln Memorial


(http://www.humaneventsonline.com/story-images/god10.jpg)
A stained glass window of George Washington praying, in the chapel in the U.S. Capitol

Bruce, first you say that it's OK to post the ten Commandments in Courts and public buildings, and you state that many other religions say the same thing.  But then you don't want those other scriptures quoted.  So you would forbid the posting of passages from these other belief systems in a court of law?  Or in a public building?

It's just when people start to invoke God to assert their will and run their control-freak trip that I have a problem, especially when what they are saying and calling for are unrecognizable as Christian doctrine.

There is indeed a powerful heritage of basically monotheistic faith from the founding of this nation, and indeed written into the Declaration of Independence.  Not so much Jesus (there was some dispute about Christianity per se), as God; faith in the power of the diety, not so much in the power of man.

And this was quite appropriate thinking, given the puny Continental forces compared to the mighty world power of Great Britain.  It was incredibly courageous for the former Colonies to stand against Britain, and the people who did it fervently hoped in the support of divine providence, and said so frequently - of this there is no question.

Awesum Arcitecture, I have never been to the Supreme Court Building.

Thanks Bruce for putting those up,

My reply was to another poster who made the "drive by" comment that religions would just fight over the posting of the 10 Commandments.
In his words “Probably fight to the death over the meaning and application of these rules to modern life.
There is no single Christian voice, why encourage the state to mouth one?”
My point was that “the state” has already “mouthed one”, and indeed it has been here for hundreds of years without dissent or fighting until recently.
I don’t see Christian voices calling for the removal of the 10 Commandments; it is the secular humanists that are doing so.
God fearing people believe in and want our country to follow those very precepts upon which it was founded.

As to posting other faiths beliefs on US public buildings, or worse yet changing current building to accommodate such, I say no.
This is America, based on Judeo-Christian principle.
What defines a country are language, borders and heritage.
We have already lost control of our borders and language, its time to draw the line at our heritage.

And you are right, clearly God's hand has been upon this country since its founding, the freedom and blessings we enjoy today are a direct result of our forefathers following God's word.

Thanks for pointing that out OM!

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Ok,  at this point I'm a little confused.  Am I supposed to love my brother, declare him evil and kill him or just post the ten commandments in public places?  My own Christian beliefs keep tripping me up in following the logic here.  Would offing a muslim family help me through or should I just post the commandments.  I don't think we are supposed to kill.  Can I still go to Sunday hamfests?  Any help would be appreciated.  Ed

Hi Jack,

You are most welcome!

Sad thing is, at 40 years of age I am just starting to understand and appreciate what this country was founded on.
Call me a victim of public education, but the more I read about this country's founders, the more I am angered how much been suppressed by our education system.
Laugh at our friend from Liberty Corner, but he is more often than not right on the mark.

We have a great heritage and much to be proud of, and I for one feel blessed to be an American.

What other country in the worked could have created such cool boatanchors!  :p


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Bacon I like the way you put this together..I had to quote it...awesum.

I'm with ya Bruce, it sorta makes the Courtroom Dogma Silly and Petty in the full Scope of things. There is so much being left out and done on purpose. it just boogles the mind.

Not sure why my commentary is "drive by" Bruce??  

My educational experience regarding American History was primarily at the undergraduate level at a state school.  I did not attend high school so I can't comment on that.  At the college level there was certainly no attempt to hide the country's religious heritage and its influence on our political and social development.  From the survey courses I took I thought it was pretty clear that the founding fathers, although Christian, were very suspicious of the state adopting a particular denomination of Christianity more  than anything else.  By all means they were not (as a group) opposed to Christianity.   I too am very supicious of allowing the state to push any particular interpretation of the bible etc.  If you took any such coursework it really should be clear that religious belief is at the very foundation of our country.  It's not just confined to government either.  One of my professors told us all that you couldn't understand western literature if you didn't understand the bible because so much of the symbolism and allegory refers back to bibical stories and themes that most readers have in common.  Of course its a little silly to think that posting the ten commandments amount to pushing a particular religious view but I am pretty much convinced that the true intent of many of the folks pushing these largely symbolic issues like school prayer and posting the ten commandments is actually to push their beliefs on to others (think J. Falwell and co.).  Christianity (little c) encompasses many diverse beliefs some of which are strange and ugly like the Catholic haters, Rock and Roll is the devil's music crowd, snake handlers, you name it.  I'm not afraid of Christianity per se but rather my neighbors interpretation of Christianity. . . .sort of like the founding fathers.   If you relate it back to the hobby, it would seem that people on the radio discussing religion are not usually looking for common ground but pushing a point of view.  I usually spin the dial for that.  

73 de Ed

So...................since the courts have decided to turn their backs on the Ten Commandments, pretend they don't exist, and have no place in the courts or government, if I ever have to attend a hearing or trial; when I get to the swearing in part and I'm asked to tell the truth, blah, blah, blah, etc. do I say?, " Of course not, there is no need of truth without the Ten Commandments and the existence of God, without these two I have no fear of this court, or of the devil."

From UJR's post of pics of the Ten Commandments on and in government buildings, someone felt they (the commandments) were of value, maybe a good way to guide and model our lives?

Hoopie,

Those images are artifacts, relics of  bygone days. Sure, they may have been appropriate at the time they were erected but, like everything else, times change. This nation has changed. Over the past century it has grown and advanced economically, socially and scientifically. And in the process it has diversified. This country is comprised of vast races, religions, and nationalities all sharing an equal role as citizens and stewarts of this ever growing, ever evolving,  and ever changing nation.  Would it be warranted to remove such statues or religious icons ?? No, there is no reason to remove good quality artwork any more than it would be to remove depictions of Greek Or Roman Gods of mythology. But, at the same time, in our  present day, there is absolutely no need to post iconst, symbols, or excerpts from any particular religious doctrine on the walls of a public courthouse, or any public space for that matter. As a progressive nation we move with the times. besides, there is plenty of space for each religious denomination to practice it's arts and beliefs without having to plackard them over every public space in sight. The founding forefathers had the insight to grant all Americans freedom of religion which all Americans currently enjoy.. They did not grant every American the right to  impose  his/her religion on every other American in public spaces.  It's truly amazing. The founding forefathers had incredible foresight to understand that a growing and prospering nation will become more  and  more ethnically and religiously diverse. The founding forefathers were indeed the true progressives, the true liberals of their time.

Bruce - as impressive and expressive as that building ornamentation is, it can not really be said to represent a direct statement by the founders of this nation.  As a matter of fact, all of the items you presented as proof of your position were 20th century artifacts - except possibly the one from the Library of Congress, which may go back as far as 1897.

The Supreme Court building was built between 1932 and 1935.

As for the Library of Congress: The Thomas Jefferson Building (between Independence Avenue and East Capitol Street on First Street SE) opened in 1897, and was long the main building of the Library; the John Adams Building (between Independence Avenue and East Capitol Street on 2nd Street SE) opened as an annex in 1938; and the James Madison Memorial Building (between First and Second Streets on Independence Avenue SE) opened in 1981 as the new headquarters of the Library.

The Ronald Reagan building was opened in 1998.

The National Archives building was opened in 1937.

The Lincoln Memorial building was opened in 1922.

The US Capitol Building was begun in 1793, and its cornerstone was laid by George Washington himself!  But the presidential prayer room which houses that stained glass window was not added until the 83rd congress (1953).  The "under God" phrase on the window confirms this dating; this was right around the time when President Eisenhower added those words to the Pledge of Allegiance.

More supportive of your position are the stratospheric words of George Washington, from his farewell address in 1796:

" ... Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked: Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.  ..."

And also:

"... Observe good faith and justice towards all nations; cultivate peace and harmony with all. Religion and morality enjoin this conduct; and can it be, that good policy does not equally enjoin it? It will be worthy of a free, enlightened, and at no distant period, a great nation, to give to mankind the magnanimous and too novel example of a people always guided by an exalted justice and benevolence. Who can doubt that, in the course of time and things, the fruits of such a plan would richly repay any temporary advantages which might be lost by a steady adherence to it? Can it be that Providence has not connected the permanent felicity of a nation with its virtue? The experiment, at least, is recommended by every sentiment which ennobles human nature. Alas!  Is it rendered impossible by its vices? ..."

Oh it’s much more than "ornamentation" Bacon and I think you know that.
But again, my point was not to directly show what the founders of this country thought, it was to respond to Jack's question about the display of the 10 Commandments in government buildings.

Now that point has been proved beyond any doubt, let’s turn our attention to your statement Bacon and see what this country's founders did think about the Christian faith.

Jamestown:
Here is where our nation began our Christian roots. Jamestown was the first permanent English settlement in America. One of the first acts of Captain John Smith and his soldiers after they landed in Virginia in April of 1607 was to erect a wooden cross on the shore at Cape Henry. It was at the foot of this cross that Reverend Robert Hunt led the one-hundred and forty-nine men of the Virginia company in public prayer, thanking God for their safe journey, and recommitting themselves to God's plan and purpose for this new world.


At Plymouth Rock. The Pilgrims established the Mayflower Compact:
"In the presence of God, Amen. We...do by these presents solemnly and mutually in the presence of God, and one another, covenant and combine ourselves into a civil body politic."


The Declaration of Independence, signed by the delegates to the Continental Congress, on July 4, 1776:
"We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness - That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men...."  


Let The Men Speak For Themselves

The Father of the Bill of Rights
George Mason
Insisted that the first ten amendments be added to the Constitution.
"The laws of nature are the laws of God, whose authority can be superseded by no power on earth,"


John Adams
"The general principles on which the fathers achieved Independence were ... the general principles of Christianity ... I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that the general principles of Christianity are as etemal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."


Charles Cotesworth Pinckney
A signer of The Constitution, and served as a delegate to the national Constitutional Convention. Pinckney was a statesman, soldier, planter, a brigadier general and a candidate for President and vice-president. Like the rest of the signers of the Constitution, he too recognized the Sovereignty of God:
"Blasphemy against the Almighty is denying his being or providence, or uttering contumelious reproaches on our Saviour Christ. It is punished, at common law by fine and imprisonment, for Christianity is part of the laws of the land."


George Washington said in his "Farewell Address"
"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars."

Geroge Washington again
"It is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God and to obey His will "


Patrick Henry
"It cannot be emphasized too strongly that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity and freedom of worship here."


The words of Thomas Jefferson
"God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, this his justice cannot sleep forever."


John Jay
The first Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court, and one of the three men most responsible for the writing of the Constitution declared:
"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is their duty-as well as privilege and interest- of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers."


United States Supreme Court, 1892
"Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian... ... ...This is a Christian Nation."


President Lincoln:
 "...That this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth."
His second Inaugural Address alludes to "God", "the bible", "providence," "the Almighty," and "divine attributes."



Now, if you still doubt all of that, you have the numerous Christian references in buildings created by our government, the "In God we trust" stamped into our coins and printed on every dollar bill, the oath taken on the Bible during court testimony, the oath before God which a US President must take, and the prayer which proceeds the opening of each session of Congress.
Seems pretty clear to me, we were founded as a Christian nation and it is only in recent times that that such has been challenged by those with their own secular agenda.

I'll say it again, what defines a country is its borders, language and heritage.
If we are to give those up in the name of "diversity", we lose the very things which make this country unique.

I do not want to live in Arabia, Somalia, or Mexico, I live in America and want to continue to do so.
I don't want to hear Spanish spoken in schools and government buildings, or the "separate and distinct" approach that Canada has taken.
Nor do I want to see illegal aliens given rights and privileges which by law are to be afforded only to citizens of this country.
Such efforts, while they seem noble, serve only to divide and Balkanize our country.
   
Those who favor one world government and the replacement of God with government would dearly love to see our American heritage disappear and our sovereignty be destroyed.
And you, as an American, should be kicking and fighting that every inch of the way.


..

Good Morning All,

 Subsequent Reason I have found that a Flaw exsists in the Removal of artifacts that were present prior to Todays Diversity dogma. In their Hurry to make a point towards separation of Church and state i think we all agree that, that, which was present prior and not added to as of late, need'nt  been removed at all, for obvious Cause.

 It's been a Gooder Discussion OM's and interesting.

Um,  This is a very simple and subtle debate tactic. . .set up straw man just to knock him down.  Suddenly the question is whether this country has a Christian heritage and endless google searches to support the answer??.   Of course the country has a Christian heritage but the question here was whether the government should (not did but should today) push a particular religion.  Many people believe that it should but the question of what those beliefs mean is where it all falls apart as there is no national consensus or monolithic belief system called Christianity.  Seriously, you might have to pick up a book (as opposed to googling) but you should be able to figure out in short order that there are fundamental disagreements within Christianity about what this all means.

It's all lip service anyway.  Very few people (self included) try to follow the commandments except perhaps beyond not stealing or adultry.  Killing is ok as long as it isn't a resident of our borders and we all know the great American god is the dollar.

73 de Ed, google away

Not from this end Ed,

 Good Morning, I used searches for information to further my understanding on here on the net so i don't have to run to the library. And i'm interested in Why we have to knock down Art and Philosophy that was built prior to This Diversity kick going around. Talk to any kids lately,, i have, do you ever ask them how this was founded, how this all began, why we are here, why we do what we do...it's a shame what's Not being taught to the children of today, and my question was just that Why.

 Now i'm fine with any new construction going up and the walls being Blank so we don't give any hint of Coersion in the public place, I already made my choice in life, But the future gens Ed, ya know, Leave the arcitecture that was built in place, let them decide for themselves you see what i'm driving at.

 You take away Choice and you take away inspiration i think what i'm coming to here, Power of Choice...how can you choose if you take it all away.

Hey Jack,

Actually the google searches have been interesting and I enjoyed reading them.  Excessive googling doesn't make for a coherent argument but rather a series of "facts", that was the point.  Remember the internet is like a huge magazine with no editor so whether something is correct isn't subject to the same peer review that most print goes through (not that anything we saw here was factually wrong).  I agree, let em stay and I won't fall on a long knife if they put new ones up.  

Anybody gonna put a fork in this thread??  Ed

FB Men, we have reached accord, I'm happy with this...Tie the ribbons... :D

On the contrary, the argument was quite coherent to anyone posessed of logical reasoning.
One states a position then backs up said position with facts.
The methodology used to collect those facts is irrelevant; the facts stand on their own merit.
I believe you would be most hard pressed to find error in the facts or photos which were presented, but I encourage you to do so.

The unfortunate end of all this is that, with the aid of secular organizations such as the ACLU, this country has begun and will continue to turn away from the belief systems which made it great, in order to please a small vocal minority.

Whether such a turn takes the form of removing the 10 Commandments from public places, suppressing all mention of God in government and educational curriculum, villainizing our Founding Fathers as “evil white men” or recklessly pursing a course of “multi-culturalsim”, the end result is the same – the destruction of the very fabric and precepts which made this country.

And that  is the simple answer why there is such outcry about the new displays of God’s 10 Commandments in public locations.

Good topic Jack, thanks for bringing it up!
Consider the ribbon tied!

...

Actually Bruce you get the final word on this.  I made my points.  Ed

Bruce: the quotes reflect theistic belief, yes.  But only some of them allude to, or name, Jesus.  A few points regarding three of the quotes:
-----------------------------
Patrick Henry
"It cannot be emphasized too strongly that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity and freedom of worship here."

The words of Thomas Jefferson
"God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, this his justice cannot sleep forever."

United States Supreme Court, 1892
"Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian... ... ...This is a Christian Nation."
---------------------------

Parick Henry did not consider the Gospel of Jesus Christ to be a religion (!), yet he spoke of "other faiths."  Actually I worry when someone believes so implicitly that he feels he is in utter contact with the truth.  Henry must not have realized that he believed what HE thought, not necessarily what was true.

Thomas Jefferson made that statement in writing about the cruelty of slavery, cruelty toward slaves, and the teaching of this to children, and he feared that God was going to clobber this nation because of it.
http://douglassarchives.org/jeff_a51.htm

The Supreme Court also once found that Negros were not people, on the basis that parrots could talk, etc.  Since that time, somebody must have told them that the very same argument would find that all races, including Caucasians, were "not people."  I suspect that the members of the Supreme Court were about as controversial then, as they are now.

Nowhere does the Constitution, the supreme law of the land, require that citizens must be believers of any religion, Christian or otherwise; nor does it establish a national Church.  The Constitution addressed slavery, allowing the continued existence of the slave trade, and protecting that permission until 1808 - but it did not require religion.  I submit that although the founders and the People were fervent believers of several sorts, the United States itself is secular.  Note the very first provision of the First Amendment to the Constitution, added shortly after the Constitution was ratified:

Bill of Rights, Amendment I:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Constitution, ratification completed: June 21, 1788
New government under the Constitution commenced: March 4, 1789
Last original colony to ratify Constitution: Vermont, January 10, 1791
Vermont's ratification approved by act of Congress: February 18, 1791
Bill of Rights (Amendments 1-10 of Constitution), ratification completed: December 15, 1791.

Right, I agree with that.
Its not one nation under Jesus, its one nation under God.

But "under God" was a recent addition.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/264xqezm.asp?pg=2

" ... IN ARRIVING AT ITS DECISION, the Court of Appeals placed great weight on the fact that Congress inserted the words "under God" into the pledge in 1954 as a means of advancing religion at a time when the nation was engaged in a battle against the doctrines of atheistic communism. The court further noted that when President Eisenhower signed the bill, he stated, "From this day forward, the millions of our schoolchildren will daily proclaim . . . the dedication of our Nation and our people to the Almighty." From the Ninth Circuit's point of view, the record amply demonstrated that the purpose of the act was not to advance patriotism (a legitimate secular goal), but rather to promote religion. ... "

I was not referencing the pledge, but rather the Founding Fathers statements and designs for this country.

<EOM>

Good reading from the Library of Congress  

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel04.html

73, Marty WB2RJR

Get religion out of Government. Replace the Commandments with President Washington's Thanksgiving Day Proclamation !!

that'll learn 'em !!

 read it here  (http://earlyamerica.com/earlyamerica/firsts/thanksgiving/thankstext.html)

Gentlemen: the United States is not now, and never was, a Christian nation.

_ “[T]he government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion.” U.S. Treaty of Tripoli, Art. 11, negotiated during Washington’s administration, then unanimously ratified by the U.S. Senate and signed by President Adams in 1797.

_  At least 3 of the first 4 presidents were deists, not Christians: Washington, Adams, and Jefferson, according to themselves and/or close acquaintances.

http://www.ucs.louisiana.edu/~kak7409/Swanson_-_Christian_Nation.html


IN GOD WE TRUST first appeared on the 1864 two-cent coin.

A law passed by the 84th Congress (P.L. 84-140) and approved by the President: on July 30, 1956, the President approved a Joint Resolution of the 84th Congress, declaring IN GOD WE TRUST the national motto of the United States.

IN GOD WE TRUST was first used on paper money in 1957.

http://www.treas.gov/education/fact-sheets/currency/in-god-we-trust.html

interesting...

A soldier can get into a world of s**t for accidentially touching a Koran, yet, a statue of Christ (or Moses) in urine is "art".

OUR tax dollars purchase Korans for terrorists at Gitmo, yet, heaven help a public library that purchases a Bible. (even for literary value).

And at Gitmo, we furnish prayer mats, muezzins, directions ot the east AND specific times allowing the terrorist to pray.

But a courthouse or school is forbidden to display or pray...

yep, going to Hell in a Handbasket...

by the way, the 10 Commandments is not strictly Christian.

It belongs to the Jewish and Islamic faiths as well.

(Abraham was the father of the 3 "Abrahamic faiths":  Judaism, Islam and Christianity...  there are many connections.)

I vented, and feel a lot better!

KM1R

(finally using that theology degree!!!)

The people that instigate most of these bans are white caucasians,
why do we do this to ourselfs? It's dumb.
It's made us easy targets for others to use our tolerance to introduce their intolerance.

KM1R has a theology degreee.  Now we're talking.  Do other religions have their own Commandment like edicts?  Hinduism?  Buddhism?  Confucianism?  Zoroastrians?

It would be very interesting to read some of those.  I've never seen them.

Jon

Well now ?? Why  is it so critical that the ten commandments have  to be placed into public spaces ?  If it is decided that  the tenets of a particular religion should not be placed in a court of law then so be it. The founding forefathers said you should have freedom to practice your religion. They never said you have the freedom to plackard it in public.  And not allowing the ten commandments in a court of law does NOT violate anyones religious freedoms. Yoiu still have the right to believe  to practice your  religion and to read the ten commandments if you so wish. I would even say that one who is so devoted to his/her Christianity should already know the ten commandments inside and out and should be living their lives according to the commandments. Does such a person really need them permanently affixed to a courthouse wall ? Ditto for prayer in public schools. In what way is not conducting Christian prayer sessions a  violation of anyones religious freedoms ?? I was a Catholic for a part of my life, I attended public schools,  they did not have prayer sessions yet I did not feel that I was being denied my religion. If the need arose I could always find a few moments of time to reflect or pray in silence. Once a week I attended religious instruction at a parocial  and I was still free to attend church every sunday and even to be an altar boy. Where was my religious freedoms denied because prayer was noit conducted  in public school or the ten commandments was not poosted on the walls ?? 50 % of my public school  class was  jewish. Should they have been forced to recite Christian prayer or should I have been forced to read and study jewish thelogy ?? Yet both had their  religious freedoms. Jewish kids attended hebrew school and attended services much as  I attended religious instruction and church.  

Instead of worrying so  much about whether or not  Christian doctrine should be placed on our courthouse walls  why don;'t we  work to improve our courts, and our legal  system and make it the best that we can. Instead of worrying about whether or not Christian prayer sessions be conducted in our schools why don;t we focus on improving our schools, improving on the performance of our kids who can;t do simple math and can barely read. Education is what  will give our nation a competitive edge in the world. While we worry and bicker about prayer  in schools and about ten commandments on walls the rest of the world is moving far ahead of us in science, technology, information sciences, medicineand many other areas. We are falling behind.  They are not going to stand by and wait for us while we  argue over commandments and prayer in public spaces.

Good Morning John,

 One last post for this one, There's no arm twisting here my thoughts were to discuss the tearing down of an art form that was in place prior to todays diversity kick, I look at the commandments and the bibles of the world as Guides Not Decrees to be set upon others. I don't see where any man that uses them to enhance Being and good will that to be a bad thing.  I do see Cold Gov and a Complete uncaring of the masses from Gov Today and it's been on the increase for years, So, nothing new there.

 I'm for preserving as much Art and Phlosophy as we can from ages past and Using that to Enhance our way of life, obvious activities on the news daily supports my theorys, and we've Spared the rod and spoiled our children down through the years and it's not working, we've applied the "Feel Good' theology in the school systems and it's not working and we the free have Taken Gov and Placed it on High to the point that we are not the Free any more but the Slaves to.

 We are only human.

Welp, here I go one more time. The Ten Commandments are a set of rules so that mankind can live with mankind, period! If those with a secular view would overlook the specific Commandments that refer to God, that the remaining and majority are just plain sense to life in general. Listen to your parents, don't murder, don't steal, if it feels bad, chances are it is bad. When you take out all of the 'Thou's & Thee's', that's pretty much what it is saying. If you cross the line and defy these basic principles, you are pretty much breaking the law. Whether you are a Muslim, Christian, Jew, Atheist, etc. I'll go hide under my rock now until I'm lured back out into the sunlite :D

I hear you Jack and the idea of preserviing the Art and Philosophy was also on the minds of the judges who reached the decision. They banned the display of the ten commandments as a matter of maintaining a separation between church and state affairs. Is that a good thing ? I'd  say yes in that no one religion philosophy or doctrine should ever become the dominant and decision making force in determining or interpreting the laws of the land or the policy  of  the state. There are those who would like nothing more  than to make one particular religion the basis for law and the separation of church and state affords  us a buffer against such attempts be they intentional or incidental.  At the same time the court upheld the display of the ten commandments in public spaces in cases where such displayes bear artistic or historical significance. In essence the court did try and strike a reasonable balance between the significant reasons you describe and the call for a  balance of church and state.

FB John, Mikey i'm happy with our outcome here and i have learned a few things i didn't know and That's a Good thing.

Excellent debate and thanks from me.. :D

Mike....correct 100% The 10 Commandents are common sense.....they should exist in your head.......not on a wall someplace. IMO.....if you have to be reminded  of these laws.......than there is something wrong with YOU......not the people who want to keep them out of public places.