The AM Forum

I am curious if anyone has used or worked one of these "low end" models for AM. Most of what I have read has been on the middle & upper models from both companies, but I'm curious what you give up for the lower price, as a primarily AM rig.

Thanks for any insight.

Allen

I'm fairly certain you give up zero in terms of AM performance.

73, Barry N1EU

I'm pretty sure that N2DTS had one of the lower tier Anan's and sold it shortly after buying it. I also know of 2 people (WO2X and K3WKM) who bought the Anan's and eventually sold them for a Flex. They were great performers, but they discovered that if you are not fond of tweaking many parameters and installing frequent updates, it removed a lot of the enjoyment you normally get from a new radio. I also heard that Anan has decided to do some of the signal processing in your PC, which would require a more resourceful PC. Flex does all processing in the radio and uses a standard network connection. No powerhouse PC is required, as was the case with the Flex 3000 / 5000.

Flex, on the other hand, offered more "enjoyment". Its software supports DAX which eliminates any audio cables making interfacing digital modes very easy. I can attest to that. You can set up countless profiles for bands, modes or even audio preferences and switch between them with one mouse click. Flex's network connection makes remote operation rather easy using a VPN connection. They just released the Maestro control unit (full knobs / LCD) that will even allow you to remotely control the radio over a VPN connection despite the fact that Flex has not yet released this feature.

If you want access to many more advanced adjustments and are not opposed to frequent software and firmware updates, go Anan. If you are buying a radio to talk on the air and enjoy some of the most advanced SDR technology go Flex.  

Sorry, but I have to diagree with a lot of this.  I've owned first an ANAN-10 and then an ANAN-100D, soon after they came out.  I currently own both an ANAN-100D and a Flex 6500.

All the ANANs use identical dsp software.  The AM is simply the same in all of them.

I'm sure the AM performance has evolved over the years, but it stabilized well over two years ago.  NO, you don't have to constantly tweak parameters.  I can see a Flex lover waging this criticism because SmartSDR seems to be based on NOT allowing parameter tweaking - you can't adjust many things you'd like to adjust.

Yes, Flex processes in the radio, not the pc.  But the reality of that Flex decision is that Flex is S-L-O-W to release bug fixes and enhancements.  Any fairly recent PC (e.g., i3 or better) will easily run PowerSDR for the ANAN with at most maybe 25% CPU utilization.

Sorry, but I find the radio "enjoyment" comments a bit out of left field.

Yes, the Flex DAX works quite well and they're definitely ahead of ANAN on that count.  But I actually find the ANAN profiles easier to use and preferable to the Flex profiling.

Simple things the Flex is sorely lacking:  no stacking band registers, no adaptive pre-distortion, and no ability to save a WAV recording of the rx audio.  Yes, you can play it back over the air but you can't even save or access the WAV file.

Yes, Flex is out ahead on WAN access.  I have little interest in this, although I have a Maestro on order to try it out as a better interface than mouse/pc.

As I said, they're both great AM radios.  But I honestly feel that the ANAN gives up absolutely nothing to the Flex.

Several folks have talked about 'having to do all the updates'. Are they required? When I was running my Flex 5000, I got to a certain version of the code that did what I wanted, and the new versions would have required changing a few things in my setup, so I just didn't upgrade. I left it at version 2.5.3 I think, when there were two more revs to 2.7.2. No harm,no foul. It just kept working. I presume it would be the same with the software that runs the Anans. Heck, I have a pc that still runs XP. It's not on the net, and is used to run a specific task, so there's no need to have the latest and greatest software on it.

DAX sounds good, but haven't we been using Virtual Audio Cable (VAC) in that way for years successfully? I presume that's used to couple the audio together on the Anan. If not, that would be interesting to know.

I don't get the fascination with Maestro. I want to be able to run the radio, whichever flavor, remotely at times. But I think I'll want to do that on a tablet or laptop, or maybe from a phone if that can be managed. I don't get wanting to carry around a specialized piece of hardware that doesn't look all that small and portable to do it. Maybe if I had my hands on it it would make more sense.

With the ANAN, I think you want to run the latest and greatest, but no you don't have to.  They are truly making some neat enhancements to it all the time.

The ANAN computing landscape is eventually (when?) going to change big time when they release the new Direct Fourier Conversion (gigabit) firmware/software.

I think I was a bit misunderstood. I think the Anan is a great radio, but it's definitely not a plug and play radio. I've heard this on the air from several people. For example ... taken directly from the owners manual...

"Each ANAN-10 owner needs to manually calibrate the Transmitter Power Output settings within PowerSDR™ to ensure proper operation. Some versions of PowerSDR™ offered an “Automatic Calibration”. Please do not use any automatic calibration routine. Manual calibration per band is the only recommend method at this time."
Calibrate a new radio?

At least in the beginning, I think the adaptive predistortion required constant adjusting, and it's not a plug and play feature when you are using an amplifier. Such requirements could easily intimidate someone who is new to SDR radios, and that's where my comments come from.

When I attended the Orlando Hamcation this year there were three hams in Flex's booth that were placing orders for Flex radios - all were former and / or present Anan owners. They all loved the Anan's performance but were somewhat frustrated with the initial setup. These were undoubtedly operators that were more of an appliance operator. Many of us who enjoy operating and restoring older legacy equipment may not be concerned with this. In the end, I think both are great radios, each having pros and cons when compared against each other.

I don't see how b, c and d are accomplished buying a plug-and-play radio. So, even if the Anan required tons of set-up and such, it should not be a problem for anyone who is or wants to be an Amateur Radio operator. Those who are not prepared for such might want to consider stamp collecting.  ;)


§97.1   Basis and purpose.

The rules and regulations in this part are designed to provide an amateur radio service having a fundamental purpose as expressed in the following principles:

(a) Recognition and enhancement of the value of the amateur service to the public as a voluntary noncommercial communication service, particularly with respect to providing emergency communications.

(b) Continuation and extension of the amateur's proven ability to contribute to the advancement of the radio art.

(c) Encouragement and improvement of the amateur service through rules which provide for advancing skills in both the communication and technical phases of the art.

(d) Expansion of the existing reservoir within the amateur radio service of trained operators, technicians, and electronics experts.

(e) Continuation and extension of the amateur's unique ability to enhance international goodwill.

  Good points Steve. I recall once looking for a Flex 3000 schematic, and a few people thought I was totally nuts. When I finally got one, I noticed there indeed was analog circuitry between the front mic jack and the A/D. Perhaps the term "Appliance Operator" only applies to rice boxes, and "Plug and Play" only applies to SDR radio's.  :P

   With the KE9NS mods to PowerSDR, limitations placed upon AM operation have been removed for the Flex 1500 and Flex 3000. Both can go to 10 Khz audio (20 Khz BW) like the 5000 always could. The AM Monitor feature has been turned on as well without ANY latency (pre-processed audio). A second hand 1500/3000 makes a decent AM exciter at reasonable prices.

Jim
Wd5JKO

Kidding aside, different strokes for different folks. I understand that there ways other than what rig you purchase to accomplish b, c, and d. But hearing amateur ops complain that a radio is not plug-and-play just sounds wrong to my ears. I'll get over it.  ;D

Thanks for all the replies. It was not my intention to spark an ANAN-vs-Flex debate, but rather to gain insight as to whether the 100B (or 6300) were less suitable for AM than their 100D (or 6500) counterparts. Both brands obviously have operators demonstrating what the rigs are capable of on AM, but everything I've seen is with a 100D, 6500, or 6700. Unfortunately, I lack the understanding to determine if this is due to the higher-end models being more capable of transmitting and/or receiving in AM mode, or if the advanced features really only matter for other modes.

While my brain is inherently tends more "appliance operator", I don't mind a bit of a challenge... as long as there isn't something that could "brick" the radio.

73,

Allen

Good sounding AM is getting to be common place because of Flex and Anan. Both sound superb once properly set up.

Radio Service will never be quite the same.. or?
 
Yes indeed,  "The times they are a changing"..

Yes, I agree that this turned into more of a debate, but there were many relevant points made. Once in a while, this is good!

Steve, “plug and play” is very important when a manufacturer is trying to persuade legacy users of any product to adopt a new technology. It is all about making their user experience as good as it can be. It all begins with the user’s first impression, which is shared with fellow enthusiasts and eventually becomes a major factor in how well the market receives the product. If the customer’s first experience was not positive, they are likely to share it with up to eight times more people than if it were positive.
 
Ease of use is another factor, as any Apple product user can attest to. Their products are so intuitive to use that you usually don’t need an owner’s manual. Apple’s office in Cupertino is across the street from our research labs. While visiting I was talking with an Apple employee who told me that their goal is to design products that are “plug and play”, so the customer’s experience isn’t “plug and pray”.

Consider Icom’s new 7300, an SDR radio paired with a hardware control panel. It doesn’t have all the latest bells and whistles, but it performs very well. The simplistic user interface has removed the computer intimidation that many senior hams may have. It’s flying off the shelf and most dealers can’t keep them in stock. The customer purchases it and in minutes he’s on the air.

Introduce a new radio with a 300 page manual and a lengthy setup time and you’ve effectively alienated many customers.

Next topic!

AM is essentially dead. Yes, you'll hear AM on 75-meters and 15-meters whenever it decides to open, but in general .. a zone of deadness.
I'm thrilled to have a Collins 32V3 and Viking Ranger II, but realistically .. the SDR radios fair much better. My Flex 6500 simply rocks it.
But AM only exists at the margins ... much like using my Hassleblad's with Tri-X film.

Once upon a time .. sure, but now ...

Probably not a great comparison.

Apache User Guide is 67 pages.
Flex 6000 hardware and software manual total 229 pages
IC-7300 (2 user manuals) total 245 pages

Thanks, Barry. I had read about different boards, lack of filters, etc. in the 100B, but didn't know if it would affect AM functionality.

BTW- I really like the ANAN wiki site!

73,

Allen

Actually, the growing migration toward SDR means folks suddenly have incredible effortless audio capabilities (except for Icom that is) and this bodes well for AM.

That's definitely not true out here in the eastern part of North America. The AM windows on 160, 75, and 40 are so popular (and sometimes crowded) that AM operators have carved out some new territories to colonize. Many, many dozens of AM QSOs can be heard every day.

73,

Kevin, WB4AIO.

Wow! "Many, many dozens" that's a lot. What universe are you listening in?  ::)

In an hour or so of casual listening yesterday morning, I tuned across simultaneous or near-simultaneous AM QSOs audible here in western Pennsylvania on 3665, 3695, 3725 (two QSOs, one right after another on this frequency), 3837, 3880, and 3885 (two QSOs here too, one after another). The same day in the afternoon, in just a simple five-minute band sweep, I heard three simultaneous QSOs on 7275, 7290, and 7295. Then in a similar sweep in the evening I heard AMers on 1885, 3873, 3880, and 3885. That's fifteen in well under two hours of total listening by just one person. I doubt that I heard even a quarter of the total AM QSOs I could have heard if I didn't have other things to do that day.

When I first became active in the 1970s, there were many predictions of the demise of the AM mode. That definitely hasn't happened, much to my delight. The SDRs and their excellent audio and AM performance are a factor in AM's current renaissance, I think.

73,

Kevin, WB4AIO.

Obviously, location is important for these "many many dozens of AM QSOs can be heard every day" and/or one has the time to count them all day long, but overall, I think AM activity is down from what I remember of activity back in the 90's and early 2000's especially on 160 and 75 meters. Back in the late 20th century you could find AM QSO’s stretching into the wee hours of morning almost every night. Weekends some might go all night. Today, generally by 11PM (EDT), it’s hard to find anyone on AM unless the conditions are great to work stations out to the west coast.

I seriously doubt the "renaissance of AM activity" had anything to do with SDR-type rigs which really didn’t hit the market until 2002/2003 with the intro of the SDR-1000 with PowerSDR software and adjunct hardware back then that could drive a sane amateur crazy. It took several years to sort all this out.

AM activity gained popularity back in the early 90's with the resurgence of many vintage rigs on the air. They were plentiful, they were cheap, they were generally easily fixable, and many seasoned amateurs could relive their youthful days of amateur radio. I find it hard to believe that many amateurs (you'll always have a few) are running out today and spending 2K+, 3K+, 7K+ dollars, etc. just because they want to feel a more wide-body AM experience. I suspect everyone’s perception of any amateur radio activity varies all over the place, along with as many reasons, so one believes what one believes.

Not to pick a nit, but since we are - the comment was AM is dead. It is obviously is not. And that was the crux of Kevin's comment. It is an empirical fact. No belief required.

I think many new comers to the hobby are discovering AM, and others have decided to revisit it - similar to what's happening with vinyl and music.

Why we are seeing new places where AM activity is congregating might be due to the fact that AM activity often occupies significantly more band width. When band conditions are good, here in the NE, three QSO's can easily occupy the entire AM window on 75m. I'm wondering when / if bandwidth might become an issue?

There was more AM activity in the past around 3885, and there was far more SSB activity on the band too. Yet AM thrived. I don't see how bandwidth would become an issue now with a far less crowded band.

Don't confine yourself to one frequency or a small range. There's tons of room lower in the band. The is no AM Window. It's a myth. Spin that VFO knob, or type in a different frequency.  ;) Life is too short for windows.

It puzzles me .. on 80 and 40-meters there is a great deal of space lower in the band that AM'ers don't use.
Part of the problem is that most likely no one bothers to tune down there having never heard any AM activity.
I was hearing some AM on 7160, but the next day I heard SSB'ers railing against the inappropriateness of
using such an outdated bandwidth hog on 'their' band.
I wouldn't touch 17-meters AM unless wearing a flame suit and hiding the children first!

One of the beautiful things about SDR receivers is that I can set a panadapter to scan the entire band.
Any AM activity is readily apparent. Indeed, most of my 15-meter AM contacts are from stations with
panadapters that saw a huge spike up the band and tuned up to check it out. I have been the first AM
contact for many .. wanting to experiment with their Icom or Yaesu. The reality is that they usually
sound much better on SSB.

I love my Flex 6500 but AM sounds just a tad nicer on my R-390A @16khz.

If one insists on operating in the imaginary AM Window, you always run the problem of stations running high power and running 8 to 10  KHz of bandwidth, of stepping on each others edges. Weaker stations just tend to get lost with an overpowering nearby carrier. As Steve and others have said numerous times in the past, one needs to spin the VFO and find other clear frequencies to QSY an existing QSO or just throw out some CQ's and see what you can snag. Of course, you might run the risk of pissing off some sideband group who have been sleeping on some frequency for years, but who cares.  :D No one owns a frequency even if they claim they've been there for the last 40 years.

> No one owns a frequency even if they claim they've been there for the last 40 years.

I heard nothing on 3880 kHz and was testing and about to call CQ. A SSB station came back and
said I was on his net frequency that was starting in five minutes and I could join them if I wanted to.
I was thinking that isn't really how it should work, but being the nice guy, I told them I
would just listen. The net was five guys sharing the morning temperatures and then
going to church. Lasted 15 minutes. It hardly qualified as ownership of the frequency.
75-meters is almost impossible to have fun with on the weekends.

Guaranteed you'll be on someone's *net* frequency and be asked to QSY.

Actually on the lower part of 80 meters, many of us now spend a lot of time anywhere between 3700 and 3740. You'll generally find many Canadians operate around there. I'll worked several European AM stations around 3710. Even in the Extra only section below 3700, you occasionally will find an AM QSO. The AWA AM net meets on 3838 every Sunday. Occasionally, I hear some AM QSO's around 3830. And I can find them just as easy when I spin the analog dial knob too. If one was around back in the "good old days" that's how we found and made contacts. The only screens one had was to keep the flies and mosquitoes out of the shack.

40 meters is a great band but it's only 300 KHz wide. During the evenings, the top 100 KHz is still peppered at times with foreign broadcast stations making both SSB and AM activities, at times, difficult but not impossible. Back several years ago, a number of AM stations did operate around 7160 and some still do, but many, for whatever reasons, migrated back to around 7290 which is unfortunate. Given the great propagation characteristics of 40 meters, especially during the late afternoon and well into the evening hours, the phone portion can be quite crowded and peppered with territorial weirdos.

His mistake was saying "his net frequency". You'll find tons of nets on just about every HF band. Some are formal nets and others, like the one you ran across, are probably somewhat informal and just an excuse for several guys to make contact, even for only 15 minutes, to exchange mundane information and to provide verification that each one is still alive. The ARRL even has a Net Directory: http://www.arrl.org/arrl-net-directory-search But it only includes "nets" that have registered with the ARRL. There's probably many more.

I was on AM, they were on SSB. I told them to bear with me as I had to change modes
going from transmit to receive with the Flex. Wasn't prepared to set up split-mode, and
one guy said 'What's the deal with AM'ers taking so long to switch from Receive to Transmit?'.
I'd bet he has never seen a knife switch before either!

I like the idea of sliding down lower on the band.
Lots of Viking Rangers are still xtal controlled though.

In the land of gentlemen, there are a few net frequencies that are usually respected, say 14.300 MHz for marine confabs and an occasional emergency.

But even those are becoming superfluous in a world of instant weather radar, GPS, satellite relays, commercial or quasi military agency comms and so forth.

Take your typical morning weather boys, if they're seriously trading wx reports and not just using such as conversation starters, they've got some age related problems or are preparing for "end of times."  ;) That event occurs so infrequently that the majority of operators will have long since expired.  (Good one Pete, or did you mean that the nets were still alive?)

As to running AM on a SSB net, simply ask the others to hit their mode switch since they claim it's so easy when you transmit while also explaining that your turn will be a little longer in deference to your mode. They'll understand, um hmm.  If they're as fast on the draw as claimed, they won't miss more than a swallowed syllable or two. They're used to that what with maladjusted anti-Ptt devices and all.  Not dissing SSB; it's a great mode, just observing how it is.   Every net has a miscreant or two that the others affectionately tolerate. You too can be popular.

Steve I totally agree with you about the AM Window - a gentleman's agreement only goes so far. Many SSB operators simply have no interest in AM so they've justified it as antique and unnecessary. I'm sure you listen to 3885 and below. Last night the band was in fine shape and squeezing 3 QSO's into "the window" was more difficult than getting a seat on the NYC subway at rush hour. SSB stations were jamming the AM'ers complaining about stations that were 20+ khz wide. Yes, AM sounds real nice, but sometimes we need to practice a bit of courtesy and throttle it back. And yes, I totally agree with the "bottom of the band" being under utilized. The problem is, we all tend to hang out with the crowd in familiar places.

What W7NGA has said is true. Our customs on 7160 ARE different. What the slopbucket has said is unimportant and we do not hear his words.

Just to be clear, there never was a gentlemen's agreement. That is a myth.

I haven't listened around 3885 in months and seldom in recent years.

Yes, wide is cool in the day time or later at night when the band isn't crowded. But in prime time, it serves no purpose, other than to irritate others. That said, SSBers who chose to operate near known AM frequencies have little or no legitimate complaint. There are so many clear ranges of frequencies on 75 meters now that there's no reason to be close to any QSO most nights.

In my experience AM is far from dead, and judging from what I hear on air I think the interest and desire to operate AM is growing.  Since January, I have heard perhaps a dozen hams using solid state transceivers try AM.  I'm hearing more Anan & Flex radios on AM.

In regard to "windows", it seems that AM operators tend to listen and call in the so-called windows or known calling frequencies because they find success more often making contacts there.  I think that makes sense if, for example, your operating time is limited.  That being said, I believe calling CQ and making QSOs outside the windows and therefore not confining AM to small band segments is in AM's best interests.  I am hearing AM on a growing number of non-window frequencies on 75M.

As Steve points out, there never was a gentleman's agreement for this 75 meter imaginary window. It only existed in the minds of many AM operators over the years.  There are AM operators across the U.S. (and some sidebanders too) that firmly believe that this "window" was created years ago and must be respected and acknowledged as some part of a valid band plan which it's not and never has been. I guess we can blame those darn teenagers from the early 70's.

Although I've had SDR rigs (SDR-1000 and Flex 5000) since about 2004, I still prefer an analog-type or semi-digital rig for AM operation. But, for chasing DX, contesting, digital stuff, or chasing a band opening on 6 meters, I generally use the Flex 5000.

I've worked a number of guys who pressed the AM mode button on their rig for the first time, had a contact or two, or three, or four, and then you never hear them again. I don't consider these operators to be "AM operators".  An "AM operator" is one who spends the majority or all of his/her operating time using the AM mode. The others are just "kiss and run".

Wait til he has to wait for an AMer to change frequency! hahahaha

One of the reasons I left SSB decades ago and moved to AM. "Nets" in the true sense of the term are pretty much non-existent these days. Was a time they were used to pass traffic, train for emergency preparedness, and so on. Today having a 'net' is merely a way to try to claim exclusive rights to a frequency for your QSO. And make no mistake - a net is nothing more than a large roundtable where one operator does most of the talking. Others "check in for the numbers" which is supposed to mean something important, I guess. Unless sanctioned by the FCC for some emergency or disaster, there's no such thing as a net.

As far as AM being dead, no more so than any other mode. There are plenty of times I flip on a receiver here during the day to listen, only to find the bands are a vast wasteland of inactivity. I have read comments from others about their inability to find any AM activity, but none of them ever mention calling CQ or moving beyond the imaginary AM windows. Many of us operate elsewhere, and if you don't find a group or hear activity on a frequency, stir some up with a CQ or three. Sometimes it takes a few more. ;)

I do believe there is more activity the further east you come, and less the further west you go. The PNW is apparently a black hole for AM if comments online are any indication. 6 Land has had some active groups throughout the years, no idea how active it is now.

Activity is down overall from what I've witnessed. Some new AMers prefer the online world and "social media" where they can post photos and talk about AM over actually doing it. Others are just busy with life. Persistence pays off, though. Call CQ enough times and you'll stir up some activity, maybe some of the 'listened for AM' crowd will come across you. There's always a few who want someone else to start the party so they can attend.

Can't comment on the Anan beyond saying that, like the Flex models I've heard on the air, they seem to sound great when set up properly. I'm pretty much ignorant of menus for setting up a radio, and the only windows I view have red plates glowing behind them.

Maybe look into 40M...I know 15M is not very much alive lately. It catches everyone off guard and you need to monitor almost continually...unless the AMQSO's app. is reliable,,,,,,,dunno

Any band will not sound alive if everyone just sits around and listens. Take the initiative and belt out a few CQ's every now and then. Waiting for an app to tell you someone is on isn't my vision of amateur radio and if you're not in their skip zone, it won't make any difference either.

That's a narrow definition.  I know several hams who, like me, spend a good deal of their amateur radio time operating AM and maintaining their gear, but who also like CW and other modes.


Fred if you're referring to www.amspots.com (http://www.amspots.com), as a web platform it's reliable but use during the evaluation period has been low.  One motivation behind it was to provide a tool for AM stations to spot themselves calling CQ outside the "windows" but I rarely see that.

When you take a statement out of context, it can imply something different.

Nothing was implied. Your statement stands on its own. Of course, anyone can simply read your complete post and draw their own conclusions.