The AM Forum

Having the room and the impetus (wife) to head out to my barn to build a new ham shack, and while I am cleaning out an area to start construction, a couple of thoughts occur.

One is overhead lighting, with the apparent move away from incandescent what would be the best option for low interference? I have flourescent in the current location with no obvious noise other than the transformer hum.  Any suggestions?

I am setting aside a 12' by 12' area with 8' ceiling.  It will be new interior type construction in side of my existing metal sided barn.  One wall will be the exterior sided wall, the other three will be newly constructed as will the ceiling.  What, or would there be, an advantage to building it as a Faraday cage?  It would be easy to do now, rather than later...  any thoughts on this?  Seems to me from a previous job I did we used very fine copper screen electrically bonded everywhere.  Seems like that might be a bit expensive.  How about chicken wire, cheap and easy to put up before the drywall?

Thoughts?

73, Tom

I had to check your call,  Tom.   A friend,  named Tom,  is doing the exact same thing!

The one thing I'll mention is,  insulation.   Insulate the entire room,  and insulate it well.   On all 5 sides.

Makes it much easier to cool and warm that way.

Also,  as many outlets as you can figure.   Then double them.

I have an isolated ground in my shop.   Keeps the nasty phone chargers,  laptop chargers,  etc noise out of the radio room.   Not perfect,  and has associated drawbacks, but a clean ground is a beautiful thing.

Plenty of home run 20 amp circuits. All outlets in my shop are 20 amp.   My test equip runs on a gfi protected 20 amp dedicated,  I have another 20 amp test plug,  with a variac in line,  and a string of 20 amp plugs around my work bench.

The operating position has a and b phase brought over and split.   This means every other plug is it's own circuit,  sharing a neutral.

Then I have a couple 220 outlets.   A 30 amp for my Harris,  a spare 30, a 100 amp,  and a couple 20 for legal limit stuff.

The workbench has a 20 a 30 and a 100 amp 220.

All fans and lighting are on a seperate 15 amp.   One for interior and one for exterior.   Exterior has a light sensor that fires a contactor that turns all my exterior on at dusk.

All encased in Conduit,  sans lighting runs interior to the shop.   Those are standard 14/3.

Chicken wire as a Faraday cage is useless.   If it was any good,  every stucco home would be shielded.

Install a good ground.   It will pay off in spades.

The system I describe above is overkill for most people.   For me,  it was free,  sans labor.   I'm an electrician.

--Shane
KD6VXI

Hi Tom,

I don't think you need the shielded room!  One thing I would definitely do is insulate your space.  If your going to frame it out, put some fiberglass in the walls and ceiling.  The other suggestion is think about the size of the shack.  Make it larger than 8 X 8 if you can.  It may look big enough, but it will fill up quickly.  On my rooms I also insulate the floors between the floor joist and use some good sub flooring.   If its being built on a slab, I use a concrete sealer followed by felt paper and then cut foam insulating panels to size and put them between the floor joist.  What you will have is a very comfortable operating space when done.  You can figure out your heat and cooling source.  Here are a few pictures from my latest room working museum radio room downstairs.  This is room 1 of 3.        

Wow, thanks for your thoughts.  Insulation will be on all walls and power will not be a problem as the service is shared with my machine shop and the shop actually consumes very little power especially if I'm going to be in the radio room!

I have a 25 amp isolation transformer that I have always used on my workbench  with the boat anchors especially. I will build it into the workbench in the shack.

The floor is concrete.

Lighting is still a question.

I haven't tackled the ground thoughts yet.

Tom

In the topic name I keep thinking about your B+ arrangements..

I have bought over 60 Cree led 60W bulbs .... perhaps 1 of them has failed ... I love the light (3000A) from them and if you keep looking can get them for $3 or so .... bulb fixtures are cheap and plentiful

the Cree bulbs are UL apvd and electrically quiet ... the bulb envelope feels weird though

I'd skip the chicken wire. Too many rusty joints that could create noise or RFI. If you want a shielded room, use foil backed drywall. Get aluminum tape and tape each joint or overlap the drywall sections. That said, shielding is probably not needed. You be better served by putting in a good ground system and filters on your power lines. Lots of good info on the at the link below.

http://amfone.net/Amforum/index.php?topic=40738.msg297350#msg297350

Tom,

   Every situation is different, and everyone's wants can be all over the place.

What occurred to me while reading this post was how the hobby and XYL's desires were isolating you from her, and her from you. For many of us, that situation might be ideal, and for others it might not. For example, what if you are in the Barn and something happens...she falls, a prowler comes in the house, or you get across the B+, or have a heart attack.

Perhaps a compromise could be worked out. You thin out the ham shack in the closet to one neat station. Then she goes through her clothes and weeds out stuff that just isn't used anymore. This way, you can keep hamming in the house, and she can hang some clothes in the closet that would also deaden some of the noise from your ham station.

The room in the barn could then be used for storage, workshop, for both your ham gear, and for her surplus clothes.

Just one mans opinion.

Jim
Wd5JKO

12'x12' will be fine if you're dealing mainly with small equipment. If you have much big iron or plan to build benches, it might fill up pretty fast as Joe said.

Fluorescent shop lights have worked fine for me, though a couple of times when they were warming up from a cold night, they did make a bit of buzz. Choice of lighting really depends on the space and what kind of lighting you want. Beware of some CFLs - they can indeed be very dirty in the RF sense. We have LED bulbs in the house that make zero noise. Can't remember the brand.

Definitely don't sweat the Faraday Cage as mentioned. The bigger issue today is introducing noise into your station through the power and feed lines. An ounce of prevention there is worth many pounds of cure later.

Don't neglect the insulation and climate control, either. I had a rude awakening here in NC when I walked out into my unheated station during the winter. Temperature swings had caused condensation on virtually every piece of equipment. A space heater, a pile of towels, and several hours later it was cleaned up. A clear case of getting the station up and running before finishing the space. Not smart.

I'd also suggest using the dual outlet boxes when you wire. Better to have too many than a bunch of outlet strips or extension cords hanging around.

It seems the best I can squeeze out of the area will be 10+ by 12.  Not totally happy with that but it is what it is.  I will post frame pictures when they are together.  Just now worrying about using concrete nails or screws or ? for the sill boards.

As to the alienation from the wife, well I have talked to her about it and first thought is an intercom or such... the B+ and heart attack issue will have to wait.

In the meantime the Rickreall ham fair is this weekend and there comes another interruption!

T

I think the dual outlet boxes are a good idea.  In my case I am considering putting in an L shaped desk with a 9 foot operation position and 4 feet for equipment repair.  My issue is that I have a total of one ungrounded outlet in the room. 

I have an GFCI outlet on the other side in my current operating position. I'm going to have to have an electrician install some more outlets.  In my case my issue is I have a 1950s house with 2 prong ungrounded plugs.  My joke is I bought a house that matches the plug on my Heathkit DX-20. (and actually I am in the process of replacing all those plugs with grounded and fused line cords - I have no interest in dying for nostalgia's sake)

I plan to have GFCI outlets installed in the new position and wire them to a wall switch so I can turn off everything with one click. I have mostly 1950s equipment and, as a rule, it all stays unplugged unless I am using it. 

It's pretty close to true that you cannot have enough electrical outlets in you shack.  Be sure to include a 220 outlet in case you want to add a 'LEEENYAR"

I put full HVAC in my new shack - so glad I did. Comfy both in summer and winter + better efficiency.  I put an 8" 16lb copper sheet under the wall plate.  The outside part of the sheet is attached to my ground system.  After construction the plate was bent upward so that a 5/8" copper pipe could be  attached.  That pipe goes along the back the wall in a "L" fashion so I can have a common ground point for all my gear

Al

RF tends to trip the GFI stuff.
I have 2 quads fed by #10 to their own 15 amp breakers and its not enough, I have outlet strips that are connected to the master on off switch for the small stuff, the big rigs get their own switch and outlet.
Unless all you have is small stuff, you need at least two 15 amp feeds and as many outlets as you can.

House wiring is much easier then ham radio equipment, so why not do it yourself?
Hot, neutral, ground, #10 or #12 wire, white is neutral, black is hot, bare is ground.
Get 20 amp switches and outlets, and they also make GFI breakers.

The problem I have isn't that I couldn't do it, but my insurance wouldn't pay off if there was a problem on something I did and the city codes don't allow any house to be sold with "do it yourself" wiring of any type. If I ever wanted to move I would have pay an electrician to either remove it entirely or remove it and reinstall it.

Progress today... but waiting for a new framing nailer to arrive before the uprights go in.

The concrete attachment was easy part as the local builder's hardware pointed me to the right drill bit and some hammer driven studs.  Fun so far and only issue is that the two walls I need to attach to are previous construction by the first owner.  I have to cripple into the walls on one side.... learning experience but my neighbor was in the building trades so I can bounce ideas off of him.

Next is to plot out the AC 120 and 220.... I have all the wires available to me in the current shop so I only have to do a sensible layout.  

Also pictured is the first box of stuff for the ham fair coming up this weekend....

Tom

Oh, and the wife in front of me on a bicycle trip we did on the Dempster highway this summer.

Tom,

Unless the plate you put down over the concrete is pressure treated it will rot.  You might not thing you have any moisture issue since with air over concrete it evaporates before you can see it.  But, when you cover it up the moisture is trapped and in time it will rot and you will also likely have mold.  Go up and look at my previous post and if you don't want to take the steps I did, at least put treated lumber down.  Drylock works well also as a moisture barrier.  Hate to see you go to all the work and then have problems down the road. 

73,
Joe-W3GMS   

Joe, it is pressure treated.... the building in the past has been subject to a little water but I added a sump pump a couple of years ago and so far "no problems".... hoping for the best but preparing for calamity!

T

If the floor had not been poured yet I would have suggested Pex tubing in the pour run to an instantaneous heater like I have in my addition. Thermostat triggers the circulation pump.
The local tile store has an entry ramp with ceramic tile that melts snow. There is a spun fiber sheet with heat coils on it that is placed under tile ....if that might be a consideration. Nothing like heat under foot.

But....I don't know what interference you might encounter from the coils.

A wonderful project!  I am thinking of doing the same in my garage where I have room for an operating position.

I recently reviewed the National Electrical Code and prepared a presentation on grounding for my local ham club the Rappahannock Amateur Radio Association.  I will make this a separate posting.  Everything can be improved, so I welcome comments on the presentation.

I REGRET THAT I CANNOT POST THIS PRESENTATION BECAUSE THE FILES ARE TOO LARGE TO BE POSTED. If anyone wants copies of these presentation please contact me at fhh11@columbia.edu 

73, Floyd

That does not seem legal.
They might require a permit and inspection, but even in NJ people build their own garages, additions and houses.

 

Doesn't seem legal I also have to buy a city permit to park in front of my own house but I do. At least I'm not in an HOA. 

We have a similar problem here in Bakersfield city.

Here,  it's legal for a homeowner to do pretty much anything,  as long as it's permitted and inspected.

The kicker is,  ONLY in electric,  they won't ISSUE a permit unless you have a valid electrical contractors license.

Not a valid,  California licensed electrician.   A valid electrical contractors license.

Magically,  though,  in the COUNTY, a homeowner can permit and do the work himself.   In the city,  a homeowner CAN do the work,  but you have to have an electrical contractor there for any permits and at inspection time as well.

--Shane
KD6VXI

Good on the pressure treated plate.  You should be in good shape.  I learned this lesson the hard way down in my museum.  We have never had a drop of water in the basement, so I put down untreated lumber for the plate.  Some years later I opened up the wall and looked at it and it was all rotten.  I had to rip it all out and this time did it right.  My point only being that even concrete surfaces that appear to be bone dry, still have moisture wicking through the concrete.  When its not covered it dries so quickly that you do not even though that its present but it is! 

Good luck with your project and enjoy your new space.   

73,
Joe-GMS   

I think pressure treated will still rot, you need a vapor barrier, no?
I thought pressure treating was for bugs.

When I made a den in the basement, I did oil base paint on the walls, then plastic barrier, then insulation, even though it is somewhat ventilated.
The floor I just put a rug on, if a rug gets wet you can dry it, clean it, or get a new one.
The one time I had water in the basement is was from a water heater leak.

The floor does not get very cold with a rug on it, or even without if the space is heated.
Heavy racks and shelves like to sit on concrete and I loose no space.

I painted the floor before all the stuff got moved in.

The issue is that any lumber, even pressure treated, has moisture.  Typically, lets say 20% moisture, and you are putting that in a heated space.  That moisture is going to come out with the heat. If it's wrapped in plastic that moisture stays next to the wood and will, eventually, rot it out - or, more likely rot out the associated wallboard, plaster.  Ever see a bathroom pipe leak into a basement ceiling?  Within a few week you get mold, etc.  Same idea.   

Floyd and others

There are file splitter programs available, free.  The one I use comes from Total Commander (Click here for info:  http://ghisler.com/ (http://ghisler.com/)) which is a very versatile file management program.  It's based on the old Norton Commander that featured two panes.  That aside, any of these file splitter programs need to have the same splitter / joiner utility at both ends.  A slick capability to have in one's arsenal computer-wise.  There are other file splitter programs but I cannot speak from experience how well they work.

Al

OK, the shack takes "root" in the barn!  A couple of pictures attached, result of about 4 days work with the weekend off for a ham fair in Rickreall Oregon.

I picked up an interesting current meter (digital display) with two shunts, one is 10 ampere and other is 100 ampere.  The circuitry appears to be homebrew but well made.  Not yet sure of calibration... but when I put a "D" cell across the 10 ampere shunt it read somewhere north of 35 amps and descending.... seems a little optimistic for that battery to me.

Next few days will be running AC wires in the walls.  I have a 20 ampere circuit available for the normal line voltage and a 60 ampere circuit available for the 220.  I predrilled the uprights so the wire runs will be a little easier to do....

Then comes the interior drywall, then insulation, etc.

Tom

Looks great! 

Joe-GMS

Someone earlier alluded to possibly splitting their 220 line into two 110 lines (nominal).  I.e. grabbing one leg each side to ground.... it is an interesting thought to me as I look at the wiring of the new shack....  I have a seldom used 220 run that is very close to the new construction and each leg has a 60 ampere breaker.  Does anyone have an objection to pulling the 220 into the wall of the shack, then splitting off all of my 110 wall sockets from there.... what is going to be the downside?  Hmmmm, could it be that I might accidentally plug two hot 110's together... kind of out of phase.... maybe a boat anchor has a "leak" to the chassis and ???

This is probably a bad idea, but thought I would ask anyway.

Tom

T,

Splitting 220. Bring it to a small 'load center and treat it as an electrical entrance. But don't bond the neutral to the box.'You could(should) ask a 'Lectrician.... I've been out of it for awhile ( I crawled around under porches and in the mud for a licensed lectrition), so I don't know watts up now.  I think there are a few restrictions on doing it per the code. But its not a bad idea.

But I will make a suggestion. IF your running new copper to the electrical entrance, and decide not to have a separate box, run 10/2 with ground for your 20A ckts. A bit less voltage drop. If you really, really wanted to go crazy, run EMT. You'll give everyone goose bumps.  As far as never using "220", you say that now, but ya never know....


klc

You need a guzunder

Shortly after moving into my house, work remodeled a site over Philadelphia and filled the dumpster up with romex, BX, conduit, quad box outlets and so on.

At the time, my house had everything on a fuse panel, three 15 amp fuses for ALL the outlets, 220 for stove, drier and water heater.
Oil heat and the old well pump still worked for the garden.

I went to home depot and got a 100 amp breaker box, pulled the meter and swapped out the fuse panel, then put the seal back on the meter like it was still intact.
After a few months, the electric company put a new seal on it, nothing said.

I split many of the outlets up on their own breakers, and ran #10 from each phase to a mess o quad outlets in the shack and work bench area.
I use the nice pre bent conduit and armored wire to do the job almost free.

Well after the fact (15 to 20 years) we had other work done and the entire entrance was redone to meet code (200 amp, not over the roof) and nothing was ever said.
Got central air and a gas furnace now, gas drier, but a double electric wall oven so that is why it needed the 200 amp service.

I had big rigs when I did the work, but nothing that needed 220, so just ran two 110 volt 20 amp lines, one does the RF stuff, the other the modulators.

I would do it right, remove the 220 and replace it with a sub panel.
220 is just one leg of each 110 phase and neutral.
Your circuit breaker box offsets one phase after the other so if you wire two runs on breakers next to each other you have one on each phase and 220 between them, which is how the entire house is wired.

I would have a dedicated 220 line for BIG STUFF, and THREE 120 lines for small stuff.

One of the 120 lines would be for the lighting ONLY! The other 120 lines for the operating
position, and the other for special uses like clocks and computers.

I have been in rooms with only one circuit for everything, and it sucks when the fuse opened.

Your "barn shack" is looking just great!  :)

Always nice to have a clean slate to run AC, a good ground, and control lines with everything open and accessible.
 
Regarding AC and future projects, I have just run yet another 240 volt service in the upstairs shack for my homebrew transmitter soon to be unveiled. It's #6 copper 6/3 with ground, (black line in pic) and was actually pretty easy to work with.

  It's not a bad idea to have more than minimum requirements for current draw/voltage drop/ wire size. Maybe consider running one stout 240 volt service to the barn shack for projects in the future. Remember that AM is continuous duty and things like filament voltages, and drive are happy with a stiff, minimum voltage drop power source starting with your AC line!

Good luck with your fine barn shack!

Jeff W2NBC

Certainly the progress, in appearance, slowed when I got to the wiring. But, it is done. I have one 220 VAC 30 ampere circuit and three separate 20 ampere 120 VAC circuits and finally two overhead light circuits.  I am ready for insulation and then drywall.  Got the door set (first time ever for me) but it was easy.  Got the ground rod driven and it will only be about 6 feet from the radios in the room.  I also have an underground outside water system within a couple of feet of the ground rod so some experimentation will be possible by switching between the ground rod or the water pipes or combining them..... might be interesting. 

Initially I will be end feeding a 216' long wire, which has worked well for me along with an Icom AH-4 for 10-80 meters (not on 160).... up to now I have had 1/4 wave "counterpoise" wires for each band draped around the outside of the house. This may be problematic now as the new shack will accommodate the AH-4 "indoors" and so the 1/4 waves have an option to hang around the interior rafters of the metal building or lead through an insulator to the outdoors and then draped around the gutters, etc.  I wonder which might be the best approach?  This may be an issue with the metal siding?

Tom


 

Boy, I wish my barn was that clean!  It's going to be nice.

T,

Submitted fer yer approval,

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Cozy-Products-36-in-x-16-in-x-0-25-in-Super-Foot-Warmer-Heated-Rubber-Floor-Mat-FWB/202933441


klc

Insulation in (all except for a duct area for antenna and ground leads) and got the exterior sided today.  Can't yet find a drywall person that is "out of work".... seems we are having a building boom in our area.

This will end the progress for 2015 as the XYL has us booked for December in Palm Desert.... still, I bet I can find some type of ham activity there!

By the way, 10 by 12 feet is starting to look smaller all the time... I will have to limit the restoration side to one project at a time and store future projects outside on shelving or some such... I think I can manage to keep my resistor and capacitor stockpile inside.... and my hardware... soldering tools... well you can see how it will end up without careful planning.

73,  Tom 

Some nice big shelves to the left of the door would be handy!

OK!  I am "in the shack" finally... the wife took me to Palm Desert for all of December but on return I got a little time to finish the inside of the room and am now 90% moved in.  I really only have a 2 meter antenna up for now but have the twenty meter dipole "under construction".... all antennas have to move from the house 'end feed' to the barn 'end feed'.... and the weather is not cooperating. I have a Johnson Ranger on the rotator for service.... it is the first project beyond moving in....  also bought some new clip leads today and built a rack for them, tired of untangling them.

Library moves out from the house next. 

In the pictures you will see containers with components on two racks outside of the shack.  They can be accessed or moved into the shack as parts are needed (big stuff)

Heavy transformers yet to move.... 

Fun stuff.... even found a modulation transformer that was missing for years while going through the transfer. 

I think I will treat myself to a new oscilloscope... one of the little digitals..... finally get rid of the failing Tek 465....

73, Tom

I'm going to upgrade the shack at my new QTH this year, so please answer some questions for me. Thanks!

• Is PT wood needed?
• Are you using "Split 20" circuits for the outlets?
• What, if anything, are you putting in for ventilation and/or heat?
• How do you seal the foam panels to prevent air leaks at the edges?
• What kind of insulation will you use in the walls? The ceiling? What "R" values?

I appreciate any advice you can give: I'm going to be doing the work myself, so I want to have a good plan.

Bill, W4EWH

T,

Looks nice.

Is that a lazy susan?

You need a comfy chair. I picked up a few used office chairs for under $200. Best thing I've done since I was a jn. Some one said that I was going to nap in them. The wife is so negative at times.... .. But a stuffed chair would be nice.

klc

Here are the particulars:

Yes, pressure treated wood at the interface with any concrete.  In fact there should be a plastic foam or sheeting between the PT wood and floor.

Insulation is R13 in the walls and R30 in the ceiling. But, remember, I am in Oregon and cold is not such a big problem.

Electric outlets are distributed around the room and have three separate 20 amp circuits.  Also I added a 30 ampere 220 circuit, just in case.

I was going to have someone else drywall the interior but the bid was $2400 which exceeded my "mental" budget so I lined the interior myself with 7/16 plywood.... 3 day job but I felt better and the plywood makes screwing things to the wall much easier.

Tom

Yes, a lazy Susan.... I generally don't refer to it as such since the wife's name is Susan!!

Tom

Congrats Tom! 

Your final product of the room you built looks great.  I am sure you will have many enjoyable hours operating from it. 

Now get on the air and enjoy it.

73,
Joe-W3GMS

Nice job. Thanks for sharing the photos.

GOD bless yous guys that have good health and energy and some shekels to build the ultimate shacks.

It's too late for me to have a shack that is above ground so, I can see what's going on outside. I have always been a cellar dweller and feeling like a mushroom. An out shack nicely designed with heating and A/C and some windows would have been the best for our situation here at MOP radio. It would have created more usable living space in the house for the family, instead of me dominating the entire basement area.

Good thread
Nice plans

Fred

F,

You could buy a cheepie video cam and point it outside. Then you place a monitor on the wall, put some curtains on it and there you go. Get one with a mic, and listen to the birdies chirp, and the crickets cric.

It seems that you are doing well.


klc

Over here, one of the cats is always sitting in the basement window, messing with the curtains. Chipmunk displacement.