The AM Forum

In 1954 a globe king 500 cost almost $700.00 !!  In 1957 a Valiant (assembled) cost 400-something dollars.

I'm just trying to figure what that translates to, in 2015 dollars.

Doing a little research, the average NEW house in 1954 cost around $10,000.  The average new car cost $1700.  Gas was 22 cents/gallon.

Well, comparing those figures to today's, it seems as if things have gone up around 15 times since 1954.

The question is: Would someone pay $10,000 (accounting for inflation) for a _NEW_ 500 watt (carrier power) AM transmitter today? 

What would a _NEW_ equivalent (or better) transmitter with similar capabilities to the Globe King 500 actually cost today? 

If you did it with a linear, it would have to be a pretty good one - one that could dissipate a cool 1000 watts of heat over a reasonably long term, and of course a good exciter would be needed.  I have no idea what linears such as this would cost...you could use a Flex or an an Apache Labs transmitter as the RF source.  They produce very good AM.

If you had such a thing actually built for you - and this is done from time to time, it would approach the $10,000 figure - considering it would probably take most of a month to build such a thing (assuming full-time work on just that project, and actually charging a fairly modest labor rate) along with the cost of the parts, of course.

Anyway... just a question...  Those old rigs appear to have been VERY expensive in their day, but maybe hams of today spend a lot more on their equipment than I think.

Regards,  Steve

http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl

This came up in a qso a while back, it was postulated that a t-368 would run close to 50k  in today's micro dollars.

Some hams spend 10s or even 100s of thousands of dollars on their stations these days. Some only spend $100s. The average? That would be an interesting thing to know.

Quite a few hams do have a transceiver that cost in the $3-4k range. Add one of the newer 1.5 kW linears at around $4-5k and you're looking at 7-9k before considering accessories, antennas and towers.

There are amplifiers on the www that seem like they are as good as store-bought and maybe even more was spent.


As for transmitters it is hard to compare then and now because all modern ones include many modes that would make the home builder's costs explode, not just the traditional AM & CW of old. An exception to this opinion may be the open source software defined equipment.

No doubt in my mind remembering back to the early 60s, when I first became interested and listened to the bands and read everything I could get my hands on, that "REAL" ham radios were the stuff of the wealthy and retired folks who could afford such things. Owning a Collins anything reached mythic proportions... I think the proliferation of big AM xmitrs was the result of the actual costs of buying a big rig, not to mention there were no commercial xmitrs of the AM variety except maybe the KW-1 that reached into the big signal levels.

SSB and the push for it was in many ways a means to equalize the differential in "talk power" across the bands. Ignoring the other factors that SSB was brought in for.

Also, the way things were made back in those days was with the idea that they were going to LAST A LONG TIME, which is somewhat different than the manufacturing ethos of today. Even though solid state rigs from now 35 years ago seem to have lasted and work fine, usually.

I think for us, we of the last remaining generation that has any recollection of how ham radio was back in the early part of the latter half of the 20th century, part of this whole "boatanchor" collecting and using thing is in fact related to the unobtainability of these very radios due to their cost back in the day. Although some time in the late 70s and early 80s you couldn't hardly give them away...

But yeah, at a time when a name brand rig cost as much as a decent car those were pricey items.

                   _-_-

Well, maybe  :)  It depends...   Looking at the Valiant design, it is really a poor transmitter in many respects.  Owning one, and having fixed a number of them, the design has many weaknesses.  One of the most glaring are the undersized fixed capacitors used in the tank circuit.  That resistor in the VFO compartment is another legendary failure point.  There are others as well.

The Ranger is another poor design.  What a heat box!

The Globe King is also underdesigned in many ways. 

One of the better transmitters from a "lasts a long time" standpoint is the Viking II.  I'm trying to think if I've ever fixed one due to a component failure.... hmmmm maybe never.

I'm working out an "indestructible" implementation of a solid state transmitter.  Obviously, this is really not an absolute possibility because little of this world is going to withstand a direct lightning hit or something like that, but it is possible to design and build something that will be able to withstand both operator error and failures such as antenna shorts, opens and the like that occur at a modulation positive peak.  We'll see!!!

Regards, Steve

" Looking at the Valiant design, it is really a poor transmitter in many respects.  Owning one, and having fixed a number of them, the design has many weaknesses.  One of the most glaring are the undersized fixed capacitors used in the tank circuit.  That resistor in the VFO compartment is another legendary failure point. " :'( :'(

I am still in the process of replacing those caps, and hopefully soon it will be back on the air.  I moved that resistor in the VFO to underside of chassis, as no way could my numble, not nimble fingers get a soldering iron in there.

John W6ZKH

When I first visited a ham store in 1964 the culture was that you were either a Swan-man or a Collins-man. The Swine was affordable at about $300 and had a silky VFO.  The Collins S-line was priced way out of range, like $2K for everything and we all drooled over it like hungry dogs.

Corky at Hatry's in Harford, after seeing me trade in the Rangers, Apaches and  Galaxies for a few years finally told me to get rid of all the shit and buy a lifetime Collins S Line investment. Just like blowing money in most hobbies, he was right.  Buy an S-line and be done with it - and AM would be better served by building a big homebrew plate-modulated rig.

Just like in Pulp Fiction, you're either a Beatles man or an  Elvis man. (Swan man or Collins man)   ;D

Today, we can spend anywhere from a few hundred bux up to over a $million on ham radio.  (Liberace-man)

T

Then Drake came along. Not as cheap as a Swan but no 2K$ S line either.

My Viking 1 and T4X/R4A have served me well.

I agree with you Steve. The Viking 1 and 2, if cared for, can run for a loooooong (HLR imitation) time!

It could be that the design of the Viking I and II, especially the II, were designed with CD in mind. The FCDA had very strict rules on design and component endurance in order to qualify for FCDA funds and acceptance (i.e. the famous CD label). The Valiant, Ranger, and a host of others were probably designed around consumer oriented values. "Make it cheap, make it work, move it out".

Steve,

I agree completely, the Johnson line was laid out by someone with a strange set of design criteria. A nice way to say that it is fairly much horrific. But the front panel was good! :D

The aesthetics that came next in the Johnson line, at the end of the company (more or less) with the nice slide rule dial and the sexy lights above the meters all inside that aluminum bezel assembly as with the Invader, in my book LOOKED super 60s sexy. Style baby, style!

Fact is that a Collins R-388 is still my main AM receiver, and has fabulous mechanical design, along with what I consider to be classic front panel style vibe. Personally, one of the reasons that I personally do not crave an R-390 is the lack of style vibe.

So, what floats u guyz boats? Front panel style vibe or internal guts, regardless of what the front looks like?

                         _-_-bear

Even some of the high priced Collins stuff (the 32V comes to mind) were not built to be easily repaired. I doubt the designers ever dreamed they would be in use even 20 years later, let alone 60 plus.

 I wonder how many of the current rigs will be around in 60 years, assuming that there is any interest in them then? I have several ART-13 transmitters, a T368, a BC-1306, a few GRC-9 sets, R309A, SP-600 and BC-348, all working plus a TCS set that I haven't gotten to.

 I also have a Valiant and Ranger along with a bunch of SSB all tube and hybrid rigs.

 I have a SB-33 that I may need some germanium transistors to repair which makes me wonder. Just how many of the newer rigs have custom IC's in them, wonder how available they will be in 60 years?? It would not surprise me if in 60 years my ART-13 and BC-348 are still around but my Icom 756 PRO II is a "what was that"???

Forgotten the infamous Yaesu FT-100 debacle? A few years down the road and Yaesu pulls the plug on service for it? We all know the real deal. Things WERE made to last 40, 50, 60, and longer years ago, even if the design engineers didn't expect them to last indefinitely. Nowadays, everything is designed to last until the roll-out of the next best model, which is roughly equivalent to one year.

...Phil

Ft-101s are about 40 years old and still going strong.

Yes, most older rigs can be improved and some are easier than others.  I did some rather extensive mods to my Ranger II some 30 years ago and I have not had a single failure since that time.  Its been extremely reliable.  When I look back on it the mods were not at all difficult to do.  No drilling or blasting.  Its definitely one of my favorite low power AM/CW rigs.  Look at the number of these rigs that have been sold and look at what you will pay for a nice clean Ranger today and that kind of tells the story at how well these rigs have done over the years. 

Joe-W3GMS     

Price vs inflation has been discussed here numerous times. In fact, I recall when KW-1s were routinely bringing $25K a few years back, I ran the original price through the inflation calculator and discovered that the original $3850 in 1952-53 dollars came out around $25K=$26K in 20-whatever dollars. So if you had bought one new and kept it in pristine shape, you wouldn't had made a cent on it. Better off investing in pork belly futures.

Cost vs Value (value) is purely a matter of preference and desire. A lot like the recent thread on ebay prices: a 'crazy/stupid' price to me might be a reasonable price to someone else who values the item differently than I do.


Yep, that's a fact. Before his death last century, someone interviewed ol' E.F. (think it's in ER mag) and asked him why they didn't prime the panels on Valiants and such that were having paint problems at the time. He said something like they had no idea any would still be in use decades later, instead assuming hams would upgrade to newer, improved gear as soon as it became available. That was certainly Art's view when SSB came along. Though I'm sure he'd have some pride in his equipment surviving and being appreciated so long, he was a 'Get rid of it and move on' type from all I've read.

Initial cost was an issue, too. Why prime a cabinet or panel for an additional $1 or so per unit when it wasn't expect to be around long? Especially on an item like the Valiant that clearly sold in high numbers, that dollar adds up fast.

Collins went the other way, using zinc chromate primer on the KW-1 and other rigs of the day. They supposedly lost money on the amateur line but Art considered it a worthy PR investment since many BC and design engineers of the day were hams and would put in a good word for commercial purchases.

Today's rigs have Manufactured Obsolescence written all over them, from firmware to hardware. Whereas nearly everything electronic in the world used tubes for decades, the ever-increasing speed of technology improving makes for shorter runs of chips etc. One need only look back as far as the Kenwood TS-930 and similar to see the looming issues. I seem to recall some issues with Ten Tec's Jupiter, too.

  

I got my GPT-10K transmitter on the air today..I had to replace the tube socket for the 4CX5000 final tube.  The spring fingers in the 8 inch diameter socket were weak and had lost their spring from all the heat involved with large tetrode operation....Mine was built for the Navy and carries the designation AN FRT-39..According to the TMC history pages, this transmitter cost $31,283.65 in 1966.  That would be $469,254.75 in today's dollars...TMC built these transmitters to last..according to the WWV ,Fort Collins Colorado history page, GPT 10K transmitters were in continuous 24/7 use there for 42 years from 1966 to 2008..They are still there in backup service today....My transmitter shows 6460 hours on the filament hour meter....
  

    "...I feel your pain..."   - Bill


But also, I do not feel your electric bill!




       _-_-

The General Electric BC-375 aircraft transmitter with all accessories including dynamotor, cables and all the tuning unit drawers and the mounts and spares kit cost was 1800 dolllars for Uncle Sam in 1941. That is just under 30K in 2015 dollars. That is about right because I can attest that most similar qualified aircraft systems cost about that much.

Which proves why I NOW have the equipment I drooled over in high school.

Collins S-line, HQ-170, Viking II with VFO, etc.  Luckily I got the S-line before they went way up in price.  Also before E-pay.

When restoring gear, you the owner might have a chance to help it last 60 more years by making some functions more foolproof, adding protection, etc. If the power output does not suffer intolerably, some reduction of plate voltage should help things like modulation transformer live longer. Its up to the owner and subsequent owners.

Content on this board seems to run in endless circles, but that's us, just like 3885.  ;D
So whatever you do, run all the old stuff at 110 to 115 vac by bucking transformers or whatever. 

continuing another oft repeated thought to also aid that 60 yr. equipment refresh :
Power line voltages ran generally lower or with less consistency out on the farm than in the cities in those days.  Manufacturers generally expected sagging line voltages but perhaps never, surging or high voltages.

Remember when everything came marked with 117 VAC tags? Was that a compromise or an actual NEC code for residential then?

The cost of everything is out of whack! Now if I take a part time job at Home Despot for $9.00 per hour that would equal $1.15 in 1958 dollars. I forget what I was paid by the hour back then? The job I had was at a cement block factory they were  paying me about $80.00 per week clear. I bought a two year old Ford for $300.00 and traveled all over the place with that. Then I got the bright idea to join the Army for $77.00 per month starting pay.

By comparison of the T-368 transmitter mentioned above, My westinghouse must have cost the government more than $100,000. I think I would be hard pressed to find anyone who would give me a $1000.00 for it :'( :'( :'(  If I tore it apart I would be lucky to get $500.00 for the parts! Well anyhow I am not going to part it out and would like to get it back on the air this summer.  Get out your S meter oil :D :D :D

You were probably being paid $2-3 an hour back then, maybe even less. Hard to tell but it's likely you paid less in taxes, so your take home pay was higher.

A friend consigned a big rig to be built last year.   It was a slow build,  he was building a house in another state,  life going on,  etc.   But,  I include it for reference:

It's a pair of 4-1000s modulated by a pair.   It includes a restored Ranger as an exciter / speech amp and a r388,  also restored.  Transmitter will work on all bands the Ranger includes,  high to low.   (ie,  no 80/40 only rf deck,  will cover to ten).   He purchased everything as a package.... 

5.5 grand,  pick up only.  Guaranteed,  and turn key.

Wess Coast prices.

--Shane
KD6VXI

Interesting but homebrew prices are irrelevant in a discussion about commercially made rig prices.

Actually as the BC375's VT-4C tubes continue to gain value, the rig may climb back to the 1941 price! 

Commercial sets are those that were paid for. Having it built for oneself as mentioned in the first post makes it a commercial set. Within reason professional builders/consultants often build at home in their workshops or garages as do noncommercial home builders, making most of what does not come from a mass production factory 'home brewed'. The minority of commercial home brewed sets is relevant, as are some non-contracted home brewed sets. It can be argued that there are standards for engineering. performance, and appearance but home brews as a class are not so easily dismissed, and what can be said about the projects in the handbooks, other than one was built in a lab by a paid person, and all the 'copies' were built at home by people who still had to buy parts and consume labor time. The relevant question of the topic is what did a transmitter cost and its value, and what would the same or similar transmitter cost or be valued at today.

You guys forget that you could take that 1958 dollar bill to any bank and trade it for a silver dollar consisting of about, what, 90% of pure silver alloyed as coin silver with copper, otherwise too soft.

Said so right on the dollar. "Payable to the bearer on demand" etc.
Sure gold and silver are now commodities, but your dollar per hour back then ranged in today's value around $15 to $20 based on silver, short range and gold for absolute standard.  Won't delve in to gold now except to say that U.S. Treasury pegged it at  $35/oz. but you weren't allowed to own, buy or sell it (legally.)
the minute that policy was recinded, it soared to $135/oz. ...and you see where it is now per oz.

So your $80/week, old, was really instantly tradable for 72 Troy oz. of silver.  No one Wanted to carry around that much easily ripped-off weight , believe it or not! Worth $1600 now.  P&M, p&m, we never had it so good, those of us that had a job.  There just wasn't much money floating around back then since it had real value, had to be mined, had to be worked for with real labor and what metal there was backed the value of much more paper money, promises and drafts.

If you want to deflate my argument, promise me the modern value of silver will again be tradable at $1.00/0.9 Troy oz. without a typical govt. trick of calling it a new dollar, thereby revaluing every savings, stock and bond account in the country by 15 to 20 times less if done now.  Typically this is done be calling in all existing notes by a certain date after which they are not only devalued but totally worthless.

The other just as painful in the long run but frog boilable in the short run trick for valuable coin metal is to gradually decrease the metal value, e.g., Kennedy laminated dollars, etc. 
For the younger crowds information, the last phase of the U.S. trick several years ago was to make the penny mostly zink since the value of copper in a penny exceeded the value of the penny.

That is why all govt's love inflation. They sell you treasuries and pay you back in twenty years with confetti. The American stock market has floated the world for a century and even with the sad state of our economic  'recovery' is still the most stable in the world.  That's why the dollar has risen compared to other currencies in the last few months. Everyone else's is approaching junque, because of having economic policies even worse than ours.

Too bad real economics isn't taught honestly, beginning in the grades.

1.  He didn't build it.   He had it built,  professionally.   That was clear from me stating he consigned it.

2.  Nowhere did it state commercial.   

"The question is: Would someone pay $10,000 (accounting for inflation) for a _NEW_ 500 watt (carrier power) AM transmitter today? 

What would a _NEW_ equivalent (or better) transmitter with similar capabilities to the Globe King 500 actually cost today? 

If you did it with a linear, it would have to be a pretty good one - one that could dissipate a cool 1000 watts of heat over a reasonably long term, and of course a good exciter would be needed.  I have no idea what linears such as this would cost...you could use a Flex or an an Apache Labs transmitter as the RF source.  They produce very good AM.

If you had such a thing actually built for you - and this is done from time to time, it would approach the $10,000 figure - considering it would probably take most of a month to build such a thing (assuming full-time work on just that project, and actually charging a fairly modest labor rate) along with the cost of the parts, of course.

Anyway... just a question.."

Granted,  this transmitter is a lot bigger than 500 Watt carrier,  but it did answer the question posed.

--Shane
KD6VXI

On the "For Sale" board someone just listed a restored Johnson 500 for $6,500. Take a look.

Sorry about that. I got focused on all the talk about various commercial rigs and their pricing. All things being equal, production (or commercial) transmitters should be less expensive than a one-off or custom built. I'm guessing the labor charges and/or profit on most customs is very low.

Remember that outfit a few years ago that was going to duplicate and sell replica  Globe Kings for around 4.5 to 5 k $?
I think they built a prototype or two.  Wonder whatever happened to them, ...the rigs too.?

  My Elmer, W6THD, bought a Collins KWM-380 around 1980, I was astounded by the price, he paid around $4,000 for it, the price of a modest new car. I go to Ham Radio Outlet every once is awhile and I see the top of the line Kenwood, Yaesu or Icom for around twice that price.

(http://amfone.net/Amforum/gallery/25_27_08_11_2_33_44.jpg)

There was one in New England; I believe Tim might have worked on it; another one was delivered to someone on Long Island; one out in CA (maybe more). I guess no one likes to admit that they paid "big money" for a piece of crap. I remember meeting the designers/owners years ago at a CQ Saturday night party at Dayton. Don't remember where they faded to after everything fell apart. I believe they had a store/outlet somewhere in Texas.

The new Icom IC-7851 transceiver lists for a modest $17K.

(http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/hamhf/4557lrg.jpg)

The Yaesu FTDX-9000MP rolls for a cool $10K or 11K depending on the additional options.

That was Dana WA1HUM that had that. He is now a SK and I don't know what happened to that rig? I know that Tim HLR got some of his ham gear but I never heard anything about what happened to the clone Globe King?  I really loved talking to Dana but he dropped out of ham radio not too long after 9-11..

According to my notes, Dana became a SK 11-25-2012.

"The new Icom IC-7851 transceiver lists for a modest $17K."

 Guess that shows how out of touch I am on prices!!! GOOD GRIEF!!!!! 

 I go to HRO in Oakland every once in awhile to buy parts for projects at work or just look and when I'm down in the south bay I like to hit HRO in Sunnyvale, mainly to look at what they might have in on consignment although it irks me to pay PRK Sales Tax on used equipment.

Steve,  ain't nuttin,  as the bubba may say.  I know I've done it enough times.   On this board lol.

--Shane
KD6VXI

This one has been listed in the ER classifieds for quite some time.

Poor memory and reading skills on my part.  :P