The AM Forum

I've been stewing about whether or not to keep my Valiant stock with respect to the audio section. However, as well all know, the stock Valiant sound doesn't cut it with respect to QRM busting. My question is simply this....If I perform all of the Timtron audio mods to my Valiant (and document them), will this adversely affect the transmitter's value? Mind you, I don't intend to sell this radio anytime soon; it resides upstairs and 83 pounds is a great incentive for not relocating the "Beast".

I bring this up based on my experiences lately with respect to poor band conditions and comments my audio lacks "punch". Of course, Timmy always gives me hell when we chat.

Tnx. Ur opinion is appreciated.

PHILIP

I would be less likely to buy any heavily modified radio.   An inspection and demonstration would help decrease concerns.  *shrug*

Timtron has mentioned in the last year or two that some older postings of his mods (I don't recall the radio(s)) have errors and need revision.  Be diligent in your research.

I'm another one that generally won't purchase a heavily modified rig. I did that once and never again.
If you want punch, the D104 and the clipper should give you punch as long as you don't overdo the clipper adjustment.

If I remember correctly the audio mods you're referring to are pretty invasive: rip out the mod drive xfmr, entire clipper circuit, etc... If it were my rig and it was in decent shape I'd do like Pete said, hook a lively D104 to it and call it good. You're only gonna bust so much QRM on AM with 125 watts anyway.

Which one do you use? I already have a nice condenser that I use on the Flex.

Philip

Buy a modified Valiant?

It all depends on who modified it and the quality of their work.  I would pay a premium for a great sounding Valiant that was modified well. To start from scratch is a lot of work. To do nothing means communications quality audio.

Here's an example:  (I may be forgetting some of the finer details) Back in the 70's Chuck/ K1KW modified a Valiant.  He unplugged all the audio tubes and used the room for a 50 watt Saynkin? solid state audio module as an audio driver. Hi-tech for the day. He replaced the 6146 modulators with a pair of 811As and a nice mod transformer where the 866s once resided.  The rig looked absolutely mint when finished.  That thang sounded like a $millon bux - beautiful full range audio.

He sold it to someone in the late 80s IIRC and even gave me the chance to buy it for $200. What a dummy I was to pass it up. It's still around somewhere and I'll bet works FB. Did PW Fallon buy it?   That's what I's talking 'bout... ;)

T

It's nicer when a modification is well documented, but who among us is without sin?

With the Valiant you need to decide whether you want only the Al Green audio quality sound, which will only be impressionable with local contacts, or the James Brown audio quality sound where you can break through the QRM and work the long haul AM stuff on all bands.

I'd prefer Placido Domingo audio....

The kind of voice most microphones are  afraid of. :o

73DG

Or have your cake and eat it too...

Start with a rig (modified Valiant) that is clean and flat  from 30Hz to 7Khz.   Have a good mike and use an EQ to make it 300 - 3000 Hz to punch through the static. (Whatever suits your narrow tastes)   Or mellow out and roll out the EQ smiley face to sound like a broadcash station.  

That's the advantage of having a flat platform to work wid.

T

Nice to have flat audio there's room to play make sound how you like!

I heard the WA1HLR Valiant well he was making changes!

Modulate the thing externally and pipe it in through the accessory socket.

Keep the cheese grater stuff intact for future generations to marvel over.

QRM busting will not happen with super hi-fi audio. Nothing against low-end audio on the air. But a nice smooth sound balanced and lottsa modulation is the key. The extra bass just overloads the system and you think you're cutting through the band noise and it just ain't gonna cut it. Nothing but a muffled bassy sound and no one will understand what you are saying.
With a low power transmitter, not QRO AM, the hi-fi sound can be you enemy. Big positive peaks and audio that is something like 100-6000hz is pretty nice and the Valiant will handle it well.
A broadcast TX at 500W or higher is designed to sound super hi-fi and modulate the pants off of the finals. The Valiant has limitations.
Fred

I think a real hi fi 100 watt rig is a bit silly unless you run it into an amp or something.
But a nice, clean 100 to 4000 or 5000 Hz audio with plenty of modulation is useful.

I always thought playing with the radios was the fun part, making them better, better audio, less heat, more efficient, more reliable, cleaner signal.

I am not interested in any old gear any more, but if I bought something, I would tend to gut it and do all the improvements, document it, and not care about resale value.

One reason home brew is so nice, there is NO resale value...
And you can start off with a good design, not a bunch of cost saving marginal stuff.

Nothing tops having as much audio as carrier input, using parts rated for the job, and plenty of space for them.

I use a Samson G-trak which has garnered good comments whilst using the Flex. The mic runs off the USB power line, and pipes line level balanced audio out.
So, I like the option of piping in equalized audio and not reworking the innards. Easy Loweezy.

I essentially want to sound good and have the ability to tweak things as needed to punch through garbage. The Flex does this with an internal 10 band mic equalizer (in software).

...roll off the lows and peak around 2 KHz.

http://www.samsontech.com/samson/products/microphones/usb-microphones/gtrack/


Philip

So, just what is the frequency response of a bone stock Valiant?

RSWL...................

The real easy way to do it is to use an 8 ohm to whatever (5, 10K ohms) into the grids of the modulator tubes.
All the tube stuff can stay intact, just unplug the tubes and lift the wires off the modulator grids.

Or, you can build a nice modulator and hook it up to the B+, which also offloads the modulator power from the transmitter power supply. Many rigs have provisions on the back to do that.

Less drain on the HV supply, less filiment power off the rig, great audio, rig remains stock.

To my ears, a clean 100 Hz to 5 KHz IS hi-fi.  Very few people can generate audio with their voices below 90 Hz anyway.   Put an audio signal generator into a speaker and try to duplicate the sound with your voice below 100 Hz. We once had a "Limbo" contest on the air. W1VZR was the ONLY person who could approach 60Hz with his voice. And this was straining. Most bottomed out at about 85 Hz.

I think the muddy, boomy bass syndrome is caused by those who forget to enhance / boost the mid to upper mid range frequencies AND suck out the 150 - 500 Hz mud.  The average male human voice is slightly muddy and needs help. Very few guys have natural, punchy voices - and those people often find work as announcers.  IE, to run "hi-fi" audio with no mud, an audio equalizer is almost mandatory, unless you are James Earl Jones.

100 watts AM carrier (400 w pep) is plenty of power for fine-business local AM contacts. After all, the difference between the legal limit (1500 w pep) and 400w pep is only about one S unit, 6 dB.     Using the same dipole, there would be little meaningful difference.

I think that the difference lies in the tendency for using poorer antennas to first get on the air with stock 100 watt AM boat anchors. (a G5RV  20' high)  The guys running the 1500 w pep rigs have probably been playing the game longer and have evolved to higher and better antennas, thus the disparity.

Stock, the Valiant's audio is possibly the worst of the classic boat anchors. Maybe the clipper and restricted audio is desired by some, but I think there's not an Amer out there who doesn't want to sound his best and get an audio compliment once in a while... ;)

Optimum, tailored audio response matched to one's own voice takes some work to achieve.

T

Stock the Valiant is audio tight, which has it's place. I would not worry about resale value. A well placed Audio Transformer and replace the modders with any one of the suggested replacements execpt the 811's which would require a different Mod. tranny, feed it with your audio chain and your done. limits are Antenna and band conditions along with the receiver at the other end.

Timmy

I guess I'll just have to yell louder and say things like "teenth fo-ah".

If the modifier well documented the modifications with schematics, I would purchase it.

The other consideration is:

Are  you going to use it or simply keep it as an investment?

Phil - AC0OB




 

Use it. It needs way too much cosmetic work to be an investment.

http://www.amwindow.org/tech/htm/valiantbytron.htm

This is the version to which I am referring.

PAN

 "Stock, the Valiant's audio is possibly the worst of the classic boat anchors"

Oh great! I now own a beautifully re-capped, re-tubed, mush mouthed vintage transmitter!

Good grief!

RSWL................................

Whoa TOM VUE
You do not remember the bass voice competition between some Ham ops and Jay, N3WWL??
I can not find that audio clip.There was a competition of sorts on the air and Jay had that marvelous Raytheon TX..that could modulate down to 30hz easily. They were saying HOW LOW CAN YOU GO...I think
Fred

"The Lowest Voice in America"

http://amfone.net/index.php?ind=media&op=file_view&iden=77

No it's not a stock Valiant..

Oh, but how could I forget?
http://amfone.net/index.php?ind=media&op=file_view&iden=77

What a scream. Yes, that was the Kio Rio demonstration where Jay would rattle the speakers. I would play it out of nowhere and he would get right into it.  Good find, Jeff!    



The Limbo competition started with the Limbo song playing faintly in the background while an audio generator was progressively lowered from 120 Hz down to 50 Hz.  Each level would kick out some more guys until only Pete/ VZR was left. His 60 Hz match was more like an animal growl and I don't think he could talk at 60 Hz.  Very difficult to do.

We must all get on and have some more fun like that.  



T

The actual file must have been moved or removed. I see that WA3VJB, Paul uploaded in 2007 but nothing there to play. It's only info on the file.
Fred

 ;)

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17340243/lowest-in--america.mp3