The AM Forum

I am looking at putting together a basic audio shaping chain.
To begin,
Basically, I am looking for suggestions for a microphone switch box (3 in 8 out) similar to the ncs-3240 or mixer like the mx602a ( but bigger)equalizer/processor, compressor, noise gate etc...
My application would be say 2-3 different microphones. The capability of switching them between several different radios. Both rice burner and boat anchors.
From what I hear over the airwaves:
Behringer 1028/2048 gear, Symetrics 528, and the W2ihy 8band/plus combo

So I am asking for your recommendations...
Some Gear used..
Pr40/RE20 xlr type and a ole d104
Flex 1K & 5K, Kenwood & Icom
Typical Johnson/Collins transmitting gear...

I am not looking to spend a fortune, just the basic stuff that would not introduce much noise.

I just picked up a dbx166XS on sale for about $180 that promises a nice job on basic compression and peak limiting.  It will be a backup to a 1980s vintage broadcast processing chain I use (unless there's a crap-out like in December, now repaired!).

The dbx is two channels, so you could set one side up for your vintage gear and the other side for the Flex.

As you have described your proposal, your required I/O levels and impedances are different so I would suggest using the two channels to optimize (and keep separate) for each category of transmitter.

The dbx does not have an equalizer in it so keep shopping. I don't know the current market for standalone EQs. But maybe you don't need hardware: Seems you might be able to use the computer you use with the Flex to implement a software "plug-in" to provide adjustments to your audio curve, regardless of the destination (vintage gear or Flex). Simply drive the dbx with that pre-processed audio from that computer.

For microphones I recommend going to a local musician's store and explore something that sounds good on vocals, and on your voice in particular. There are quite a few very good-sounding dynamic mics on the market for under $100, a lot less than an RE-20. I always suggest the reliable, venerable, well-regarded Shure SM58, but if you're loyal to Electro-Voice they have many good rivals.

If you really want to spend about $400 for a mic, the RE27 is a great successor to the RE20. When the '27 first came out, a couple of the broadcast supply houses ran a promotion to trade in any RE20 + $100 to get the new one.  I did so and never regretted it.  Advantages include a nice presence rise around 4K, better low end response, and higher coil output than the '20 which helps minimize noise from your mic pre-amp.

I've been very happy with a Sennheiser MD-421, which has excellent high end and a 4 step low cut to optimize your voice/transmitter combination. But it doesn't look as cool as the RE-27 hanging from the suspension cage (that mount, the 309, is another $100, you probably noted, and works with the '20 & '27).

But back to the cheaper mics; since you plan on an equalizer, you can easily cover any deficit in frequency response (compared to the RE-20) among the less-expensive name brands.

If you have a portable digital recorder many stores will let you demo the mics into your machine so you can playback and compare before buying. One store around here even has a range of demo recorders and you can email yourself a soundfile from the store!

Also consider whether a dynamic fits the nature of your room. If you don't have a lot of ambient noise, a condenser microphone might do better for you for the same money. They typically have better frequency response for a given price point compared to dynamics, but they do NOT have the pattern response that can minimize noise from blowers or reflected noise from windows, hard walls, etc.  I prefer dynamics but have heard many stations with condensers that sound good too.

Good luck and I'd be interested how you sort it out.

Be sure to get a 528  "E."    The plain 528 is prone to RF feedback. I've had both and can testify. My 528E runs flawlessly, but it commands a bigger price on the web.

There are lots of choices for an EQ. I have a Berhiger 31 band UltraGraph Pro.  It has two separate channels allowing me to have a preset curve for both AM or SSB. With an appropriate-wired switch, I can go from one EQ curve to the other.  Look around before buying an IHY.  For the same price you can do better.

The ElectroVoice RE mics are FB. I have an RE-20 with rubber springs and love it. Wish I bought one in the beginning instead of playing with countless turds over the years...  ;)

T

Hey Paul,
Thanks for your recommendations. I looked at the 166XS, very nice. I like the fact that it has 2 channels as you recommend. Looking at the back interconnects. Looks pretty simply and both channels separate in and out. I maybe able to use this to separate between rice burner and boat anchor but I want to have the feature of splitting the outputs to say 8 different radios. I miss going into the city, no longer in Brooklyn...going to Sam Ash, Manny's, J&R music to try all this schtuff.

Tom,
I like the looks of the Behringer ULTRAGRAPH PRO FBQ3102 EQ. 2 channels, I like the slide type Eq instread of knobs. Does it introduce any additional noise to the system?
Thanks for the note on the "E" version 528. I have been looking at it more closely...

Len

Hi Len,

Well, I'm sure there is SOME degree of noise introduced by any device, but for real whirl on-air ham use, I think the S/N is already dwarfed by the band noise.  In the monitor, I hear nothing noticable either.

Having two preset EQ channels available is a cool idea. If you don't do SSB, you can always have a wide hi-fi EQ curve on channel A -  and then have a preset narrow curve on channel B if the band gets crowded.   The channel B can also be used to punch thru the QRM and noise for AM DXing.

It means wiring up a 2-pole switch to select the proper EQ paths for A or B.

T

I am definitely interested is using several modes. Am, fm, ssb. Sorry I didn't point that out. I guess that some of the high end digital parametric eq's have memory settings for multiple eq paths. Thinking about it more, having different eq settings for Ssb, am, fm, different settings for different mics and radios would be a very nice feature.

Please stay away from anything using RCA connectors, i.e. unbalanced audio interconnects.

Those cables/input networks make good RF antennas.

XLR balanced is best, 1/4" RTS at the very least.

73DG

Will do!
Thanks...

sounds like you're needing several pieces of equipment:

1.  a mixer for several microphones used singly or in combination (ask K4KYV)
2.  several selectible eq paths
3.  other processing like compressors / limiters
4.  a distribution amp to drive the 8 different loads

recommend use of line level (600 Ohm) balanced gear to maximize hum and noise immunity

Balanced is always the best way. I like to apply a technique I read a Rode broadcast manual about grounding the send and floating the end. Aka, I kept the ground lifted from pin 1 on the output end of each cable. My equip is stacked (7 pieces) and strapped together as a stack for system ground. Don't apply this to the mic however. keep both pin 1's connected at each end. It should be prudent to keep cables literally as long as needed to connect each piece of gear together. (My interconnect cables are about a foot long each)

Look into making all your connections with Canare Starquad. Cost a smidge more than regular XLR cable, but makes a pretty good difference in rejecting rfi and emi. After making the change to star, it completely killed off a small trace of rfi and some 60hz buzz I was hearing in the audio. Will never use anything else now.

I use all relatively cheap Behringer gear mostly because it plays nice together and I like blinking lights. I guess the more blinking lights one has, the more it looks like I know what I'm doing.  ;D ;D

Current line up is;

Flame retardant underwear.

Heil PR-40 on a cheap Q-mic 4ft boom.

Ultragain 2200 mic pre.

Multigate pro XR4400 set as a downward expander. Does a good job keeping the mic quite which is needed with the upcoming stages.  ::)

Virtualizer pro dsp2024p reverb for the slightest bit of plate on the audio. just a little, not ten roger right on. ;)

Ultra Curve Pro8024 31b EQ. Love the memories in this one. Can switch from am to fm to ssb in seconds.

Ultradyne pro9024 6 band comp limiter with various memory setups from churchmouse to aggressive destroyer of worlds.

Eurotrash RX1202FX mixer mostly for replaying recorder radio checks to their owners right back out on the air from the hard drive. Only rack mixer I found that fit the space as well.

Lastly, an iPlus router box from w2ihy. Does a fine job of giving me instant input matching, attenuation, PTT, and switching to three different radios. (J500, FT1000d, and icom vhf/uhf job)

Its all plugged into a Triplight Isobar for one switch operation with shortened power cords just long enough to make the connection.

With careful shopping, I have less than a grand into this junk, and I've never EVER gotten a bad audio report, in any mode. Albeit, the largest pain in the ass to set it all up and get it dialed in, once that headache is done, I havent had to touch it.

I have a voice for morse code, so I need all the help I can get.  ;D

  


  

Len I hope you've been looking through K3TKJ's FOR SALE listings on this site.

A few items on your shopping list, and with popular pricing.

Keep it plain and simple 8). Check out a one box that does it all.                   The APHEX 230. Microphone  a deluxe model  that has all the bells whistles ={switchable 20db per attenuation pad} and {switchable bass cut filter}  =     AKG C4500 B-BC.

You don't *need* any of that stuff.

A good D-104 with the FET follower mod, and a good transmitter is quite sufficient all by
itself. Bandwidth limiting and peak limiting can all happen inside the xmitr.

Not as sexy or impressive to look at - no LEDs flashing to impress...

                _-_-

Jared....."a little less than a grand in it"      WOW...I am a cheap operator...Nothing that costly in my shack...I must say however, that you have good audio....Congrats.....

True except some ops are apparently part-time slopbucket ops, so this won't work for them.  

Must be the time of year but audio processing boxes as a topic has sprung up here in 4 maybe 5 threads.

processing boxes are great but like any tool, are only great if the user knows how to use them.  The first step is knowing what a box is supposed to do, knowing what that means and knowing whether or not the function is needed and wanted.  These things all have their limits.

A compressor is not a peak limiter.
But, a peak limiter can do some compression.
Studio limiters and broadcast transmitter limiters are not the same thing.
A $500 mic for ham AM is a waste of money but if you have money to waste okay, at least they look nice.

A big mistake I'm seeing now is AM ops going down the path of misguidedness that the ESSB ops took, in which a processing box (usually an equalizer) is being used to try to do what mother nature did not do, which was give the op a deep voice.  Ops who seem  to feel inferior about their voices need to accept and use to their advantage what they have, and perform voice training exercises for clarity; not mis-use a box to become unintelligible low frequency rumbling with mod. peaks at 80 cps.  Slopbucket ops can to some degree get away with that because sideband power is a different animal compared to AM; but AM peak audio really needs to be focused in the mid-range and some high sibilance with a modicum of lows if any.  

Rob  

Three words...Technical Materiels Corp.  ::)

Once TMC gear gets it's fangs into you, you'll be giddy anytime ANYTHING costs less than a grand.  ;)

That's right Rob. In the end, properly setup audio gear should sound like you have NO audio gear at all. I despise the heavy base, high sibilance audio you hear on todays bands. It's fatiguing to listen to. Too many people grab themselves a 'graphical' eq, and instantly set it like a smiley face and jump right out on the air.   


For Bear: Nobody really *needs* those fancy amps that have more digits in the price than they do in the wattage rating either.  ;)

I'm also a part time SSB and FM op when the bands are just right. Add, digital, Sat, and a little CW practice to that as well when I'm in the mood. Being able to use ONE unified audio system for all rigs is a blessing.

Life's too short, and amateur radio is too big, to have your transmission jammed in one gear. 

Why do you consider it a waste, Rob?

A hobby is for the pleasurable pasttime of the person who takes part in it.  I don't accept the concept that money or resources devoted to that hobby are a "waste," and I hope your judgement applies only to yourself and not how you look at others.

People with an average voice, or even poor voice for radio, can greatly improve on what they have by careful use of audio gear and adjustments to enhance their sound.

And it's possible for a great voice to sound like muck by poor adjustment of gear.

There are average-voiced guys on the air who sound better than some with trained broadcash voices due to their knowledge and experience with their audio gear.

Example:  Steve, WA1QIX has an average voice. I've known him for 35 years and hear his voice in person every year. His voice is very similar to mine in tone - just average.  But Steve, through his talent  and experience, always seems to find the perfect settings for whatever he runs. He has the same class E rig as I and many others have. He runs similar audio gear, 5 band processor, EQ, etc.  But when he comes on and I listen critically to a room filled with his audio, it is amazing. Absolutely clean, balanced and robust.  There are guys with 3rd-BA voices that could put his voice to shame in person, but on the air he sounds better than many 3rd-BAers..

And get this: Since I built my 24 pill class E rig 4 years ago, there's times I've been mistaken for Steve.  I'll take that mistake anytime!  I have an average voice, but when I get the adjustments right, its magic.  When the adjustments are wrong, its muck.  

I sound so bad into a plain D-104 and Ranger, its comical.  

And we need to listen on a good receiving system. The equivalent of an SDR in 16 kHz bandwidth into a big audio amp and speakers is needed to really hear what's going on. An HQ-110 into a speaker won't cut it.

It seems adjustments are more critical for people with poor to average voices. However, as we have all heard, someone with a BC quality voice sounds decent on most anything, even a carbon mike... ;D


Believe me, there IS a certain talent, experience and knowledge required to get the very best out of whatever God gave us for a voice.  If you haven't found that special combination yet, when you do, you will know it.

T

It's a waste because an expensive broadcast dynamic mic for example, does not provide a noticeable improvement in ham AM radio via skywave, as compared to what you'll get with a less costly alternative.  I've heard RE20s, 27s and SM58s and Bob Heil's mics such as the PR20 A/Bed, and the differences are very subtle--you would not notice them if an operator had made the changes unannounced.  Professional broadcast mics are expensive for a few reasons, one of them being that they are constructed to stand up to abuse by non-technical talent, who might think a  mic might make an okay hammer for a nail.
I'm assuming hams know better (but you know what ass-u-me means).

Another assumption is that hams desire to put their resources into areas of station building that will offer the most return for the dollar spent, and therefore pleasure, such as antennas, and will purchase a microphone that does what needs to be done, without overkill, so as to allocate their limited resources in other areas where the impact on signal strength, will be noticed.   

I am not trying to be a killjoy--if someone wants an expensive mic, FB, but I happen to think that getting one, if it means neglecting other areas of station building where the money could be better spent, is unwise, and I see nothing wrong with pointing that out, and offering the opinion that high-end dynamics from my experience, do not offer much of an improvement over a less expensive alternative, such as a SM58 or PR-20. 

Note that I have not mentioned condenser mics--95% of hams have no idea how to set one up and work it--they are usually audio disasters bestowing upon the listener, distorted plosive breath blasts and motor pickup among other things, and are typically not even found in AM broadcast stations.

73

Rob

How about a 3 dollar electret condenser element? These little RS electret condensers, as recommended to me by Steve QIX back in the late '70's always bring a good laugh from the guy on the other end when I tell him what I'm using. The "air check" was sent to me by Jeff - W2NBC who has a great recording setup. Sometimes "real cheap" is good enough in my humble opinion.

Rob W1AEX

Rob/UJ -- thanks for the explanation.

Rob/AEX -- great example of making a lot out of a little !    We were talking about you last night down low around 3705Kc, among ops who know how to make a good recording.  I nominated you.  And yes, Jeff/NBC is another.

All well and good with one small issue.

The same elements can be found for no cost in old cassette recorders, some cheap telephones and certain other plastic consumer equipment.

Do this 3 million times and you have millions of dollars.

Ask Tom Vu.

Ur welcome; BTW let me clarify--the higher priced dynamic mics, the REs, the Shure SM7s...are fine mics that will last a life-time and certainly offer some features other than sound fidelity, such as resistance to prox. effect  and hum buck, so if I had one already I'd certainly hang on to it.

I had a huge rack of audio gear here Len.  All different types,  Behringer ect..  One day I got tired of screwing around with it all and tore it all down.  I replaced it with a single ART Voice channel. 

The Voice channel is intended for exactly what you want, It has mic preamp, EQ, peak and avg meters, Limit, compression, expander, real nice noise gate, ect ect.. It also has USB so you can plug it to the computer and play for days or weeks with all different kinds of audio applications or just monitor yourself on the PC.

Its an All in one unit.  It sounds great. Never gave me a lick of trouble. 

I run that into a DAP310 audio processor and thats it.  No other gear in line.  Simple short, Balanced cables.  Never had RF troubles.  You dont need the DAP310 unless you need to control a big plate modulated rig.  The DAP310 drives a TOA 10 watt amp and then directly to the grids of the 304TLs.

Look it up before you go and buy a bunch of gear and have to stack it all and get everything to work together.

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/VoiceChannel

Good luck

C

That is a nice box! And it has a nice big VU meter.

If you don't want or need the digital section and the computer connections, check out the ART Pro Channel. Cost is about $100 less.

Ya gotta use better bait if you wantzta catch a bear...! :D


                     _-_-

I wasn't trying to bait u in or nothing. if I wanted to do that, I'd just sprinkle some wooden volume knobs on the ground and use a snare made form oxygen free 8ga power cords. :)

Actually I take that back. From what I've seen on ur site in the past, your stuff's not about that "golden ear" horsepuckey from the audiophool sites. Apologies.

Yep, looks like a nice unit, Clark.  I see it has a patch panel on the back to do whatever.

They keep coming out with new stuff all the time to give us buyer's remorse for what we just bought... ;D


BTW, fixed my HPSDR spike lockup problem so now can transmit with 5Kc AM skirts in software. Sharp as a razor. With the processor on "10" the bandwidth is still +- 5 Kc.   I checked it on a reciever last night and was amazed.


I think the FT-1000D may get less use in the future.   The class E rig is next for evaluation.  

T

We all hang out on 21.429 AM. during the day Tom.  Fire it up and point the beam this way. 

I like the ART. I got mine cheaper.  Its really been great. One unit. Very simple to use. Also. One thing I want to point out is if you get a preamp a nice feature is the impedance matching adjustment for the preamp.  On the art unit, when I adjust that, The mic comes in and sounds awesome. Then the next mic, needs another setting to match.  Without that feature, its a toss up.

C

;)

That is one fine looking and capable looking piece of audio gear Clark. Gonna keep my eyes open for one on the used market......

I read the spec and it seems to be all you need..