The AM Forum

Are you under any obligation not to tamper with it?

What if you take it off and simply place it on a shelf somewhere? Or you toss it in the weeds on the side of the road? You take it apart to see what's inside? You smash it to smithereens with a sledge hammer?

I would be inclined to take it apart, salvage any components I thought I might be able to use, and toss the rest in the trash. Finders keepers, losers weepers.

I would think you are going to be in big trouble, if someone is tracking your every move.

As far as I'm concerned, anything anybody puts on my vehicle without my consent belongs to me. I'll tape it to the 10-ring of a target next time I go shooting and video the destruction -- just in case they ever come around asking what happened to it.

Grins & Giggles: Take it to a zoo and feed it to one of the animals ;D

If you haven't noticed cell phones contain a GPS device, how bout OnStar or whatever it is called?

Anyone following me is really bored and has nothing better to do.

Craig,

Wrap it in 'Sn' foil and put in in your freezer.


klc

I suppose this begs the question: WHY would someone attach a GPS tracking device to your car, and who would do it??

If it's just a GPS device and it's not reporting back to anyone, "What Me Worry??"

And Sn foil isssssss TIN??

"WHY would someone attach a GPS tracking device to your car, and who would do it?? "


They would do it.

I would remove it and attach it to someone else's car, or maybe an 18 wheeler.  :P :P :P

73 Jack KZ5A

I would remove it and attach it to a school bus.

Exactly what I was going to say.

Private dicks working for lawyers trying to find where people work so they can garnish their wages to pay debts.

Interesting topic.

I've covered two news stories in recent years where GPS tracking devices were used by law enforcement without the knowledge of the target.

Most recently, a case where the target was told about the device when he took his car in for maintenance. It was removed and handed to his lawyer:
FBI Sued for Warrantless GPS Surveillance of California Muslim
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/cair-fbi-sued-for-warrantless-gps-surveillance-of-calif-muslim-117251848.html
 (http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/cair-fbi-sued-for-warrantless-gps-surveillance-of-calif-muslim-117251848.html)

In another case, in Virginia, a defendant lost his appeal of a conviction in a sex attack, unsuccessfully arguing that the secret use by police of a GPS attached to his work van to establish his travel patterns during the day, outweighed the fact police then observed an attack taking place.

He contended that the officers’ failure to obtain a search warrant prior to attaching the GPS device required that any evidence obtained through the use of that device, including the testimony of the officers who observed him attack the victim, be suppressed under the exclusionary rule.

http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/opncavwp/0521094.pdf (http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/opncavwp/0521094.pdf)

No wonder authorities are very keen to interdict GPS and cellphone jamming devices.

Gee I live a boring life so go for it track me.
Make sure you get the car and truck so you don't miss anything

i'd attach it to a cat or some other animal that travels around a lot. or better yet, feed it to a goat.

Frank,
I'd put it on our friend the hawk. "Mr Rte 20"

So many good ideas. I would want to put it on something that cruised around the really bad parts of town at night, preferably.

Isn't this question being taken up the Supreme Court right now?  Does attaching a GPS to a suspect's vehicle without a warrant constitute unlawful search and seizure.

or attach it to a cop car.

since I am not doing anything to worry about, I would prolly leave it there until the right opportunity comes along to have a little fun with it. When the right opportunity came along, I would stick it onto something that would give them a run for their money and me a good giggle.................. Like a cop car or even better, a trash truck.

Like Frank said, if they were tracking me, it would be pretty boring and not worth their effort. I wouldn't get too upset if there was ome on my trick, as long as I knew it was there.

Yes, it is.  They just agreed to take the case and had a preliminary hearing on it a few days ago.

Federal, state and local law enforcement agencies want to be able to plunk one onto anyone's vehicle at any time for any reason, without any kind of court-issued warrant.  But if they have reasonable suspicion that someone is engaged in unlawful activity, aka "probable cause", how much of an inconvenience would it be to have a judge issue a warrant?

The Fourth Amendment was put there for a reason. I don't go along with that "nothing to worry about if I have nothing to hide/have done nothing wrong" crap I hear so often these days.

Like many others I am very particular about my privacy (or anyone trying to invade it without my consent)

To those that I let in close I dont keep any secrets, to those that I dont, I stay as much of an enigma as I can. Short, sweet, and simple!!

to those that are willing to give up their privacy in the interest of
"public safety" or anything else are fools! Short, sweet, and simple.
Too many have fought and died to protect those rights.

Like I said in an earlier post, finding a tracking device on my vehicle would not upset me as bad as wondering WHY it was put there. I would leave it there for a short while before having a little fun with it. All of our company owned trucks have them to keep the technicians honest. they have definately uncovered some interesting things. But my truck is owned by me, so they have no say in what I do with it.

If you are using a company owned vehicle for your job, dont be surprised if you find one on it. Many companies now do it for insurance purposes if nothing else.

If my insurance company asked me to put them on my personal vehicles, I would tell them to go pound sand just for the principle of it.

Yup Frank I would leave it there until I thought up a good prank to pull the tracker out of hiding to make a fool of them.
Carl, My luck our buddy would drop it on my car

Like sticking it on a trash truck..................  ;D  ;D

Maybe get one of your Russki buddies take it to the ISS and set it outside....

73DG

BEWARE. "They" know that someone's real name here is سﻻبي بيكون

1. Remove it.
2. Wrap it in aluminum foil to disable it.
3. Park the car somewhere with two hidden, motion-activated video surveillance cameras pointing at the car, running 24/7.

Someone is going to come looking at why the GPS device quit, and you'll find out who that someone was by playing back the video.

UPDATE:
An alternative motive might be to see when a person leaves, so they can burglarize the place. In that case, have someone else drive the car somewhere, while the law enforcement officers watch from the shadows with weapons ready. :-)

This cropped up some years ago in aviation circles. Folks in California were finding GPS devices hacked into the control panels of their small planes.  Either by instrumentation malfunction or by the required annual inspection process.

Many issues there, first, you can not modify an aircraft with out authorization, you can't install "avionics" unless you're licensed, etc.

Bad news altogether. But then, folks voluntarily allow cell phones with GPS units to track their person by purchasing such phones and using them (implied consent).  Onstar equiped vehicles as well, so the case for the installation against your will is a bit thinner than some years ago.

There was a case here in CT where a car rental company had hidden GPS devices installed in their rentals and charged the renter extra money when it was revealed that he was speeding in his rental.  I don't know what came of that case but I remember it did raise a stink with many. I suspect that it was ruled illegal since I don't hear about renters getting wacked with extra charges.

On my cell fone, there is a choice to turn on the GPS full time but if you call 911 on, it's activated automatically at that time. That being said, I don't believe the users option is something that i can activate, I think it's always on!

As far as having a court approved unit on my car, if I found it, I would destroy it.

While we're at it, what do the common GPS spy units look like?

Aren't they just receivers only?  That means someone would have to retrieve it to determine the travels.  I'm not aware of homing type GPS devices that transmit data (except cell phones) to limit personal interaction.

Tracking is a way of life. You can't avoid it. Every time you search the Internet your tracked. Go to the food store; swipe your "discount card"; pay by credit or debit card; your tracked. Tracking is even done on this board. The title of the thread has "GPS" in it and all the AdChoices to the left of the screen are related to "GPS". As already reported, OnStar, if installed, tracks you. Cell phones can pinpoint your location. Go live your life in a cave and maybe you might not be tracked.

The aviation version used the planes transponder to relay data to... someone (DEA). This was how they were first detected, the transponders became intermittent and they were reported to the pilots who had them checked to find black boxes JS'd into the aircraft with clip leads etc.

The automotive version would be a lot easier to just return to the car and collect it.  A simple magentic mount little black box would make that really quick and easy.  Just walk by, drop down to "tie your shoe" and bingo, on/off all set and none the wiser.  Return to the office and download the 'trip log' etc.   What would be fun if you found one would be to open it up and modifiy the trip log to show you drove to somewhere really interesting, like Hawaii or McMurdo and back.  Make sure you figgure the times right, else they'll get you for speedin'

Just because something is common place does not mean it should be accepted.  That type of logic would have us still living in a world where some people have to sit in the back of the bus. The first step is to raise awareness, the second to generate discontent, third take action.

That's another thought.  You wouldn't know if it was placed there by government law enforcement, which would be bad enough, or by some private agency that has no business snooping in the first place, or even worse still, by criminal elements. Once those things start to be mass produced, they will inevitably fall into wrong hands, and some enterprising entity (probably in Asia) will sell them on line.

Another market created for a new product: " GPS tracker detectors". Look for one next next to the bogus "for export" CBs next time you visit a truck stop... along with DIY mag-mount GPS tracking devices.

GPS Jammers will be next--then we will REALLY have fun. Glad I saved all of my paper road maps.
Stray RF rules!

A real GPS tracker would have the essential bits of a cell phone in it as well, transmitting data packets whenever it sensed movement.

73DG

 ;D I WOULD HAVE SOME FUN MAIL IT 2 SOME ONE AND HAVE THEM MAIL IT BACK    ;D  ALASKA ect ect Or  PLACE IT  ON A FREIGHT TRAIN THE OPTIONS ARE ENDLESS ;D

Call your lawyer instead of asking silly questions here.

Low priced trackers (including those with a cell phone built in to report your position) are already being mass produced in China. Same for GPS jammers. A five second Google search will give you a clue.

http://www.pigear.com/store/PTX5-Live-GPS-Tracker-p589.html

The Russkis are not going to be our problem. They are sitting back watching the show and waiting. Someone else is taking care of business.

You can buy them, they plug into the cars lighter socket.

I built one last year at school. VCO from Mini circuits and a few parts. Very effective with a YAGI

Ted

I must have one in my car! I recently bought my wife a new Sonata and decided to get the Bluelink (Hyundai's version of Onstar) for our trip across country.
Anyway I was at the store and mistakenly pressed the panic button on the key fob. Well when I got home I got an email from Hyundai telling me that the panic button was pressed at such and such time and they gave the street address where it was pressed!
There must be a transmitter in the car also cause you can talk to people.
These new cars tell people where you are and how they are feeling. A guy I know said they can phone home and report your speed also!
Atleast when I drive my Mustang I know nobody is watching. It is very basic: engine and four wheels.
Regards
Q

The manual for my 2003 Mazda Tribute has a statement warning that the data stored in the car's computer can be used against you in a court of law.   I wonder if Onstar has its data stored also.

Analyze it, like this guy did:
http://hackaday.com/2011/05/09/fbi-tracking-device-found-disassembled/
And for a group of hams, I'm amazed that nobody would like to learn what frequency these things send their data on.. the output power, low power? ..They most be close by to receive...and look.. a white van with dark windows.. 8) 8) :o
*Trust no one*

I didn't mean they were the problem.  They are the only folks going out to the Space Station.  A tracker working out there might give them a bit of a pause....

73DG

The 1968 Omnibus Safe Streets Act clearly regulates bugs, how you make, ship import, export and store and advertise them. There is a big difference between devices which are loosely controlled from the devices to be used by law enforcement under a court order. Some states would allow a device like a beacon to be attached by a government agency, magnetically for instance, without a court order for simple RDF tracking, but GPS devices are controlled tightly and a judge has to be involved. You have an expectation of privacy in your car and that is protected turf. In no case would the discovery and destruction of a device legal or not be considered to be a crime. "I thought it was a bomb" is the typical defense.

one could just heat it up to a point where it stops working then reattach it to the same spot.

Just like the transmissiom Frank!

Car dealers offer such hidden devices so that if the car is stolen, the tracking company calls the 'cellphone' of the device and the location is transmitted in real time. That way the car can be recovered quickly before it is stripped or is taken to Mexico never to be seen again. see "skylink". It works very well and the criminal does not know if it is present or not. Some car dealers install these sort of things to make repo easier. Skylink is a one time payment, and is for the life of the ownership of the vehicle.

As for finding an unauthorized one, lots of interesting ideas here. If someone shows up to find out why it is not working, their arrest would be a good start. Police are obligated to uphold the law, and you can insist, if a law was actually broken.

"Police are obligated to uphold the law, and you can insist, if a law was actually broken."

That must be why troopers never just give warnings anymore to speeders.

Op. Is there a link you can point to. I googled around for a minute and only see home alarms.

I'm geting in later here, but I would give it to a fisherman to take out in the pacific. let them figure that one out.

That reminds me of an incident about 30 years ago, right after I had moved back here, and I was working in KY in a town just to the north. A co-worker who also lived in TN was in a hassle with the KY state IRS over KY income tax.  We don't have state income tax in TN.  He had quit the job, and the KY IRS people claimed he owed the state some tax money that his ex-employer had failed to withhold, something that he had disputed.  One evening two KY IRS agents showed up at his doorstep.  He told them to get lost, that they had no jurisdiction here, and that if they didn't exit his property immediately, he was going to call the police.  They left, and he never heard from the KY IRS again.

I never thought about it, but I do have one, and it's by my choice, unfortunately.
It's not GPS, but it does keep tabs on my commute to and from the salt mine every day. It is my E-Z Pass transponder. When I get my statement from them, it has the exact time I hit the toll booth every day.

I've heard of them being used as evidence in court. Go figger.......................

They give warnings in the hope that the threat of a ticket will achieve the same end.

If you insist that a ticket be given and the officer has reasonable suspicion that a crime was committed, I am certain the warning would become a citation. The 'insister' is in the position of 'making a complaint'.

An acquaintance was arrested and accused of being in a certain area on a certain date and time in connection with a crime. The evidence was inside the cellphone, where the cell site registration log was stored. (according to her the police got the evidence from the phone).

The acquaintance called me insisting she was innocent, was not in the area of the crime when, according to the police, it had been committed, and that her phone was not even working at the time of the crime due to a dead battery. She asked if there was any way that her phone could say she was there at a time when she was not.

She was certainly a petty thief and a wench, but the accusation was for something way out of her league. I didn't think she'd been involved.

I speculated that her phone battery could have run down when registered to a site near the crime scene. Later when she was arrested, there was only a mention of the start and end times during which the phone was registered to the site near the crime, even though she had moved on long before the crime was committed. I suggested that the phone would have stayed registered where it was, for lack of information to the contrary due to the power loss.

Her attorney called me after this, and I explained my suppositions but also said I don't know cellular technology very well and that he should consult a cellular technician or engineer.

Shortly thereafter, the case was dropped. The evidence was not so much in the phone but in the cell system which didn't have a new registration for the phone after it had died.

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