The AM Forum

Yeah man,

I guess there is no Time Limit to "When it's time to quit".....

Ya Know you really gotta watch at Air Shows...and Boat Races....nowadays..


73
Jack
KA3ZKR

http://news.yahoo.com/ntsb-scene-nevada-air-crash-killed-3-163950655.html

Air shows are becoming death traps lately

Ya know Mop it's a shame, terrible shame actually not only for the Airframe but the loss of life like that boy I'll tell ya when it's yer time....

An the other part I Graduated 2nd in Aviation Metal Smith school in the Navy and I have a gooder understanding of Cabling Swagged Fittings of Cabling all type of Airframes of that period of time
Very Gooder Hydraulic Training, Painting General Metalsmithing of the Skins of aircraft that the
Military Required back then..

And there is a Reason the Military "RETIRE" Airframes you can't play with those things forever
that bird Belonged in a Museum...That guy was a Fool....

73
Jack
KA3ZLR

bend, bend, bend, bend.....snap

Eggzactly.....


73
Jack
KA3ZLR

The headline could have stated, "Man electrocuted while doing phase alignment procedure on Central Electronics 20A". Then the comments come in about outlawing tube circuits, and that a 20A should not be on the air, but instead in a museum.. ;D

And that's some kind of point...eh...LOL


73
Jack
KA3ZLR

the only problem with that analogy is the guy aligning the 20a would not have had eight people standing in a puddle of water and holding hands so they would get electrocuted too.

I saw a Gold Level unlimited racer being built. There's not much original airframe left. As a private pilot it bothers me that there's not an age limit for the gold races. I think age 50 for the unlimited level and 65 for the others such as T6's, etc. That kind of flying is not for old men. Well, unless you're Chuck Yeager.

Hi Well Said,

 And it just isn't that more that old guy Killed alot of folks man...with his Smartness..
I seen him up at Oshkosh he was a Hotdog...then..Joe Pilot....

I liked Model aircraft years ago...and I went up a few times..to Oshkosh...


73
Jack
KA3ZLR

..another crash today, at air show in west virginia...plane was a t-28..

..sk..

Hi Tim,

 Man you see that fireball wow.....

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2011/09/17/wwii_era_plane_crashes_at_wva_air_show/

Not a good weekend for Flight Opps...


73
Jack
KA3ZLR

After graduating first in my Navy "Aviation Electronics Technician" class My humble opinion is that he pulled back on the stick a little to quick and had a high speed stall.
The symptoms looked good for it.  Pitch up and over on your back and then straight  in.
I doubt that the airframe had very many hours on it. 

Well we'll find that out when the Diggers turn in their report...

I'd have to do some backround on that bird and see before I'd say that.


73
Jack
KA3ZLR

From just what the article states sounds like an original Airframe It had numerous engine changes that's normal the canopy had been
replaced and some modifications...

I'll look some more..

73
Jack
KA3ZLR

Here's the History:

http://www2.leewardairranch.com/racing/history/cleveland

They slimmed her down..


73
Jack
KA3ZLR

I have never liked flying but have appreciated the technology and people.

I was there guys....I saw it....The most unbelievable thing I have seen in a long time...It is now Saturday and since the races were called on account of the crash...I'm headed back to to Tum Tum..I'm gonna take the long road home from Reno to Susanville and then 299 to Eureka, CA and then up the left coast to seattle and then on to Home....I will tell you the story on 75 or 160 if you care to listen...lots more to the story than what the media puts out.........wild sh1t.....   Steve...Boatyard call my cell....

First off...I am glad your ok Steve.  As soon as I heard the news of a P-51 crashing into the crowd I remembered you saying you were going to the races and was a little concerned.  Good to hear from you.  Please let us all know, possibly a sched so we can all tune in on 75 or 160 and hear the story.
73
Chris

Hi,

I'd like to sit in on that conversation...


73
Jack
KA3ZLR

I suspect that the airfram was near new. This wasn't a museum piece is was a race plane. This was an air race - not an air show.

Things break and likely something did. It has happened at Indy and other place and spectators got killed.

I doubt it was caused by old airframe or an old pilot. Anytime you push the limits of physics, and that is what you are doing flying a prop driven plane at over 500 MPH at low altitude in dense air, things may break.

If anything was at fault, they are flying too close to the stands. They have been doing it that way for over 50 years though.

At first glance, it looks like the trim tab broke off the plane's tail. There's a piece obviously missing in the pictures. That could be an unrecoverable situation at 400-500 MPH.

I's sure that every inch of that plane's metal was thoroughly gone over by non destructive metallurgy testing to look for fatigue, those people aren't idiots.

if you do talk about it on the air, could someone record it? i'd like to hear it , but can't listen in off the air because my antenna isn't up high enough to hear that far.
shelby

Good day,

I listed further up the Page the History of the Airframe from the owners web site
it makes good reading.

Oh and the Airframe was Modified...it's not (wasn't) New...

73
Jack
KA3ZLR

I have been to the Reno Air Races a number of times and something I don't understand is in the amateur video the P-51 appears to be flying at speed directly towards the crowd. This may be due to damage causing loss of control. Ordinarily, any racing is done in a circle and passes from left to right in front of the crowd and about 300 yards away (estimate). Stunt planes may fly from the left or right but mostly over the runway at a safe distance.

My friends and I left during the Sunday show one year because a strong wind out of the north was pushing the stunts too close over the grand stands. They would pull up into a high stall over the runway like they should but by the time they had air speed enough to pull out they would be to close to over our heads. They closed the show shortly after we moved to the parking lot.

I found a pic of the missing trim tab online.
I don't know if losing it would cause a complete loss of control, not having ever driven a P-51.

The wings of that bird were shortened some 5 feet and the ailerons were cut down from 60" to 32" in the quest for more speed. IMHO, those mods might have been a issue in a loss of control and/or stability in an emergency situation. There certainly would be less control trying to recover at a slow speed.

Nice Pic Bill well done, ya know with that falling the elevator could have Jammed..Oh Boy..

I didn't mean all of the frame was new even though I said it was.

I meant that it was not a POS with worn swaged cables, metal fatigue and not fit to be airworthy as you seemed to indicate (fit only for a museum)

As the poster above stated, It was probably well inspected - It was a racing aircraft, not some rarely used antique.

Another point of view I guess. I enjoy vintage aircraft and am a EAA member. Indicating that the plane was old and not airworthy and the pilot was too old to be flying - before the fact are determined- made me want to give another point of view.

Not a Problem it's a terrible thing an it's normal to chase any piece of information.

That's FB I mentioned Swagged fittings I had a teacher in class say when we learning how to Swagg
control cables You get one chance to get it right...no double press, and nobody can garrantee
the life span of any produced Control Cable...I looked at that guy an said ya know folks lives depend on these things...an he looked at me and said Then do it right the first time....Tough character.


I had a mixed respect for Control Cabling...



73
Jack
KA3ZLR

By the way I was on maintaince with A-7 E Corsairs on the Carrier Kennedy..
you don't see to many of them anymore mostly reserves that have them..

Jack

I have found info on the internet that the Ghost underwent a major rebuild and restoration from 2005 - 2009. However, I couldn't find any details on what was done.  ???

Steve

I too would like to hear what you have to say if it could be recorded or posted here.

73 Mike

Steve, glad you're OK. I'd like to read your story here if that's possible.

I was at Reno in '92 and have wanted to go back every year since. Glad I wasn't able to go this year. '92 was a good year, only two incidents that I remember. One Cassutt nose-over on take-off and one 'off field landing' in either a Silver or Bronze race. No pilot injuries. The Pond Racer (good intentions, terrible execution of them) killed Rick Brickert in '93.

Air racing, especially at that level, will always be one of the most dangerous of motorsports. I believe that the builders, the race officials and the FAA do all they can to ensure the safety of the sport, but things will go wrong. I'm concerned that the "antis" will use this tragedy to try to end the Reno races and that would be a terrible loss to aviation, in my opinion.

My thoughts and prayers are with the families and friends of those lost and with those injured as they recover.

ldb

Ive been to Reno as well as air races on 3 continents when Ive been on military or business travel, fatalities have been associated with them since the teens.

http://news.yahoo.com/reno-air-race-crash-scene-shows-violence-impact-135438644.html;_ylt=AlOqS0ILnQhaUMDeTdbDVXCs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTNtbThvc21zBG1pdANKdW1ib3Ryb24gRlAEcGtnA2U5YTUxMDc3LWQ3ZjYtMzUyMi1hODUwLWVhZjRiYTE0NDA5NgRwb3MDMQRzZWMDanVtYm90cm9uBHZlcgM3MmI3ZmNhZS1lMjJlLTExZTAtOWUxNC0xZjBiMDNjYjY3MWU-;_ylg=X3oDMTFvdnRqYzJoBGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRwc3RhaWQDBHBzdGNhdANob21lBHB0A3NlY3Rpb25zBHRlc3QD;_ylv=3

"Questions were raised, too, about modifications to the plane made to make the plane more aerodynamic so it would go faster without a bigger engine. In a podcast uploaded to YouTube in June, Leeward said major changes were made to the plane before this year's race. He said his crew cut five feet off each wing and shortened the ailerons — the back edge of the main wings used to control balance — to 32 inches, down from about 60 inches.
"I know the speed. I know it'll do the speed. The systems aren't proven yet. We think they're going to be OK," Leeward said."


Seems like some big changes to me... Tragic that so many were killed and wounded.

Jim
JKO

I once thought about building a homebuilt - but then I started thinking about some of the "fixes" that I have done and the results that I got when flying large RC models, I decided that although I probably would have no problem - I didn't want to put my childrens life at stake.

Same with a pilots license - I started out and had no problems - but I was 53 and beginning to feel my age,  and I just didn't want to put my family at risk.

As you said - There are usually no second chances to get it right - and many experts end up killing themselves and others.

..i am a licensed aircraft structures mech. i wont touch any of this stuff...homebuilt, airshow stuff...no way....i dont want to go to prison for someones foolish acts...


..sk..

A7 was a death trap for ground pounders with that inlet so low.
It didn't belong on a carrier. I worked on the A7 VHF receiver my first job in electronics.

Flight data and video recorders were on board.

That should be interesting if anything can be retrieved from the storage.

Good Day Everyone

 A lot of good postings have come in WOW I didn't give the data recorders a thought
Paul I should have this is 2011, Francis the A-7's wern't to bad just leaked a lot..... :)
Timmy I didn't know you were a Mech Kewell I thought about it but when I seperated
from the military then I got wonderen feet and spent a few years on the road. We have
one of the most fore front Aviation school in the nation here in West Mifflin Pa. after
being cramped up on that ship I needed some air big time.. :) Jim I still can't get over
that pic in the crowd...Wow..


73
Jack
KA3ZLR

A7 ate ground pounders if they walked too close to the inlet. A friend lost a couple buddies.

Oh Francis I have no doubt of that, I dived many times checken the Intake Seal...Looken back the whole Time... :) One of the more Senior Plane Captains was a bit of a joker an liked to cover the intake as a Joke I got sent up to mast one time for Payen him what I felt was his Measure of Due...I glued his Boots to the Hard Deck one night on Compartment Watch... 8) LOL

I Bought him a new pair of Boon dockers...they couldn't Take my third for so little of Charge but I
scrubbed and polished the Ready room for a month...LOL...........airmen can't be Flight Line Mech... :)


73
Jack
KA3ZLR

...boots glued to the deck...

I'll bet that was worth going to mast for.  :)

Preliminary tests from the crash are saying the airframe was modified and broke apart from the high speed of travel.

Fred

how 'bout this???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jxcSY1AwrM&feature=related

Getting sucked into something

These things happen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbXX-9eB7PI&NR=1


klc

I saw a video on NBC this morning. He either blacked out or was kissing himself good bye. You could not see him in the cockpit.

The short version.....I am a commercial pilot and former check pilot for the G force aerobatic club..I was watching from a position halfway down the back straightaway..The ghost was in third position and was in a bank after turning the last pylon...just starting to level out a little and he pitched straight up very violently.  My opinion is that he was out cold at this point..I have never seen an airplane pitch up so quickly...The plane went straight up until it stalled and nosed over coming down nose first and hit the ramp in front of the box seats....I was quite a distance away and could see flying debris...I was in the pits earlier that day and took a few pictures of the galloping ghost as the crew was preparing it for the afternoon heat race...A good looking airplane and a professional crew..These guys have been doing this a long time..

Great pic of P-51 engine assembly 1942, Inglewood CA.

http://www.shorpy.com/node/11296?size=_original (http://www.shorpy.com/node/11296?size=_original)

I believe, but I am not sure, that the trim tab on the P-51's elevator is the mechanism for actuating the control. The tabs aero forces move the control surface.  Hence, loosing the tab would mean loosing all pitch control.  A sharp pull up making 3-4 G's could certainly black someone out, especially if it was unexpected.

SEL commercial Pilot, Inst Rating, Basic Ground Instructor, Airframe & Power plant Mechanic, all nice ratings, but none are current :( Although I did just renew my medical.