The AM Forum

  I understand that if you want to work back scatter that you need a lot of power. I remember about 20 years ago hearing Tim (HLR) and a few others on ten meters in Plattsburg, NY. He was running high power and he was only about 195 miles from me at that time.

So I guess it may  seem wasteful running all that power when you could do the same thing on 80 meters with 100 watts or less. I think the thing that's exciting for me about back scatter is that I have never done it. I'm not sure if it can be done at anytime on ten meters or just when the skip is in?  

Anyone else have any experience on ten or any other band doing back scatter?

For a while during the last peak, we were running hi power on 20 meters during the day time on 14.286 with cloud burner antennas. My dipole was only ten feet off the ground and there were about 15 of us in NE and NY working each other with crystal clear signals. My antenna is still up in the woods but trees have since grown higher than the antenna. Time to do some clearing ;D ;D ;D

Worked the Tron on 10 sometime around 1989 on backscatter. I was using a low power modded Ranger into an SB-221. Could have used a little more gas but it worked.

Some of the QRO guys can be remembered as regular fixtures.

Used to hear Ralph W2WME on a lot backscatter at that time.

DL6SX used to open the band each morning with his QRO AM sig.

IIRC KH6U was on with a KW-1 20 years back. Heard him quite a bit. Only worked him once or twice.

QRO on 10 can be useful because the band will last a few minutes longer.

About 20 years ago a ham friend and I ran an experiment as follows:  The other station was due west of me about 7 or 8 miles, we first made contact on 20 meters pointing beams at each other's location.  Then we both pointed our beams north...we could still hear each other, but signals were watery and "DX sounding".  Our guess is we were getting reflectons off the ionizaton near the pole or aurora, etc.

It is an ego thing!

so they can make their own band openings.

It's amazing what can be done with a 500 watt AM carrier and a simple 3 el Yagi on 10M when it comes to working vast distances.

On the last cycle I remember a VK2/Dave was it? on most openings holding court into the USA. He had pileups from the states that were legendary. He ran a pair of plate modulated 813's and a directive array of some kind. Was it a quad? I don't remember.  Everybody and their brother wanted a report from him.

Sure, it's fun to get on and rag chew with 10 watts. But there's certainly is a thrill dropping the mawl down and hearing the weak ones from the west coast that never make it through until conditions are excellent. There's lots of guys running 10 watt riceboxes with backyard verticals who are absolutely thrilled to be able to hear and work the east coast when the big guns listen specifically for them.  

I love to play the game on 75M (and sometimes 40M)  into Russia. The PW Vlads and Sergios almost piss in their pants when I call CQ for them and they get thru. It takes a lot of effort to get the power and antennas right to do the weak signal thang, but it's worth it. Lots of fun on both sides.

So, yes, part of it is ego, some is a challenge but most is just plain fun.     But remember, just running high power with a poor antenna is NG. When half of Europe is calling us and we can't hear them, the locals will beat us up bad. The hearing is more important than the transmitting, by far. We should strive to be evenly matched if possible or even hear a little better than we transmit. A good balance might be if we get a 3X3 report but give out a 5X7 at times... ;D

T

Here's the homebrew 10M stack at 33', 66' and 99' high. (24' booms)   I turn them on homebrew steel gates with ropes tied off to the ground - the Armstrong method.   Shown beaming west coast, USA.

[quote author=K1JJ link=topic=27990.msg214308#msg214308 date=1308185

So, yes, part of it is ego, some is a challenge but most is just plain fun.     But remember, just running high power with a poor antenna is NG.
[/quote]

That is the problem, you are the only person I know with an antenna system that can hear well.  Ten is always open somewhere,the trick is making noise in the right  direction then having the listening ability.

Just running high power into a dipole at 20ft. won't cut it on the receive end.  So why aggravate  your neighbors?

Well I'll be 70 years old in 9 days and the way I figure it, I don't have a lot of time left to annoy them so I might as well start now >:( >:( >:(

So this thread did convince you to run high power?  ;D ;D ;D

LIFE'S TOO SHORT FOR QRP!

Nope, I started the thread. I wanted to get a feeling about what others have done. I'm not particularly interested in why it shouldn't be done or what neighbors may experience. There are many out there who DO NOT have close by neighbors so it's a mute point as far as I'm concerned.

So anyhow, I hope to hear more from those who have had experience doing high power on 10 meters. I have run many transmitters on ten meters and all have been less than 100 watts and I had a blast but I want to hear about the other side ;D ;D ;D   

A partial list of AMers with 10M Yagis or logs who can hear very well:

Rich/K1ETP  5el? at 60'.

Chuck/ K1KW   Four stacked logs

Steve/ HUZMAN:  I gave him my "4th stacked" 5el 10M Yagi. He will suspend it from a tree rope.

Frank/WA1GFZ -   Log Periodic

Buddly - Did you get that 2el Yagi up?

Al/ K1JCL   TA-33

Joe/WA1IWQ    Log at 90'

Joe/WA2PJP  Log (at 60'?)

There's many more. Maybe they will chime in their set-ups.

Before the cycle peak, there will be even more arrays up. That is the usual pattern... ;)

T

Above is my reply to Frank over on the Tech forum.

Ive run power on 10 since the 50's when its needed and also on 6M. For ragchewing the buffer zone it gives makes for a QRM free rag chew, I lke to sit back and enjoy a QSO and not have to put the cans on and constantly try to notch out QRM which is often SOP on 75/40.

Backscatter is a normal event on 10 and 15 even on a dead band. During disturbed conditions Ive worked into S Africa on sidescatter beaming to Brazil or the South Atlantic on an otherwise dead band. And getting snide remarks from others that were clueless or generating a pileup of 10-25W rigs out of the NYC area who never heard NH before.

At sunset its often possible to run a bunch of VK's at the bottom of the cycle. Not a peep on the band until I let off with a 1200W CQ on SSB. Ive sometimes worked LP JA and other SE Asia at sunrise beaming over Africa with pee weak signals both ways; the extra 10dB sure makes the difference. When I had the 4 el 4/4/4/4 at 25/50/75/100', all rotatable, it was even easier 8). Now its 4el at 110' but might become 5/5 later this year.

I also enjoy QRP and have DXCC on 8 bands sofar with 5W or less on CW.

Carl

Congrats on turning another decade!!!
One thing I have noticed that every decade change since 50, I have noticed a little less fire about life and a little less wanting more responsibilities. These are small increments, mind you. The medical and dental incidents are increasing.

I am not far behind you in the age bracket and have used AM transmitters with 300 watts or so on 10 in past years.  On SSB I have an AL 1200 and have used it and the AM transmitter into a yagi at 40-60 ft. depending on where I lived at the time.  

Is it fun?  Not particularly nor is it particularly bad.  I just use the power necessary to communicate with the stations (s) I hear.  I have worked VK2BA several times and his report is that power makes an S unit or two difference.  So I always use less electricity unless conditions are very marginal.   ;)

Vu, you are thinking of VK2BA who has an extensive online log of his 10 meter AM contacts.

I've had a decent skyhook on 10 for years. Right now 5 elements on 25 foot boom @ 85 feet.

Had the Johnson 500 and a six element years back but it was more fun using a barefoot Ranger.

Why would anybody want to run high power on 10 meters? Well...to pi$$ off the neighbors? At my place in New Jersey, if I run more than about 25 watts on 10 meters on AM or SSB, my voice comes through loud and clear (well, maybe not so clear on SSB) on my next door neighbor's telephone, stereo, television, toaster oven, washing machine...well, you get the picture.

Seriously, high power and a good antenna are great for working tropo scatter on 10 and 6 meters. I have had a ball working tropo scatter on 6 while mountaintopping for my local radio club, K3YTL in Wilkes-Barre, PA. But I don't DARE do that on 10 meters at my place in NJ, where my good antennas are. I would be promptly lynched.

The best antenna that I can put up this cycle will be a couple lazy H's. When is solar max this cycle?

See here:
http://amfone.net/Amforum/index.php?topic=27983.msg214364#msg214364

A report I read seems that we are diving for a another low period. Maundering along.

2 weeks ago

Yep, you missed it... got to wait another 11 years.

Why does a dog lick himself

If I can hear someone well enough on 10 to have a ragchew QSO I can work them with 25 watts and my 20 m. dipole and matchbox.

<<<on 10 meters on AM or SSB, my voice comes through loud and clear (well, maybe not so clear on SSB) on my next door neighbor's telephone, stereo, television, toaster oven, washing machine..>>>

that happens with me on any band I operate AM on.  I operate AM anyway.  If a stereo is functioning as a radio receiver it is broken and needs to be fixed.  It is not my problem.

It has a great taste ??? ??? ??? ???

Less filling!!!!  :D

You've licked a dog?

cuz it can?


klc

Same here... co-operate, but OPERATE!

So they can lick their owners face.

Yes, Tom. The JJ 10M beam has been up since late last summer. Works great.

I avoid answering any question beginning with "WHY" when it comes to things I do. Particularly when it involves a hobby or some other insignificant thing.

The answer usually involves; "cause I want to" or "cause he said I couldn't do it" or some other smart alec remark like that.

The answer is no! But I often wonder why people let their dog lick their faces??

Getting back to ten meters, I need to get some antennas up this summer. I'm going to put up two lazy H antennas as you once suggested. So I guess they will work on 20 15 & 10. I wonder if it's possible to make a lazy H that will do 10 meter and six meters. That's quite a spread. Ideas anyone?

I need to repair my diesel generator to power my Westinghouse MW-2 for the high power experience. Does anyone have a 3 phase 208 30 KVA generator that they would like to donate ;D ;D :) :)