The AM Forum

http://hamcall.net/7bandocf.html

Scroll to the bottom of the page for the punch line.   ::)

And those are the "Special" prices!  :o

But, if you buy 6 or more, you get a discount...  ;D ;D ;D

Something about fools and their money comes to mind here. I noticed a good-sized section at the local AES dedicated to pre-made dipoles.  ::)

I just spent $22,000.00 for upgrading my OCF antennas this spring! I can't wait to try them out. Couldn't be easier using PayPal!

What the ---- are these ------  ------- people thinking?
Are they that ------- -----?

Is this guy braiding the ------- wire by hand?

Makes me want to hurl.

The difference is in the "Pure Virginia Mountain Air" (tm)

Quote: "The magic is in the mathematical relationship between amateur bands."

Yeah well, the real magic over there is their ability to turn 11 lbs of wire into $526.95 plus shipping! ;)

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

-- Arthur C. Clarke

seller must be an audiophool oops, I mean audiophile.

That's pretty incredible.  If you have no conscience I guess you can make money in ham radio.  Was there anything like this in ham radio 50 or 60 years ago?   Or are there more suckers now?   Maybe the only way to advertise in the old days was CQ and QST and they had standards back then.

From Ott; Yeah well, the real magic over there is their ability to turn 11 lbs of wire into $526.95 plus shipping! Wink

That's what I was thinking.


The people that will buy those antennas are the same type of radio operator that will spend $600 on a chikkin band 5/8w ground plane solely because it says it can handle a ridiculous amount of wattage.

About as cool as a $150 gotham vertical.

I'm sure someone here can figure out what the selling price would be for these things back 50 to 60 years ago. Or page through some of the old QST's and CQ's and see some of the weird items that were sold during that time.

Here's some MSRP and reviews on verticals and wire antennas on the market recently:
http://www.eham.net/reviews/products/13

I don't believe the Buckmaster OCF is a good deal because the internal balun dealing with reactive loads will not likely survive high power AM. Other store bought options might include this antenna that has a very large balun:

http://www.arraysolutions.com/Products/ocf_dipole.htm

It is funny to me how it is normal to spend $40K for an SUV, or $2500 for a flat screen TV with the options, or $3K+ for modern ham transceiver with accessories, and then we call someone an idiot for spending a few hundred bucks on an antenna.

Jim
WD5JKO

I guess it's because of all things Amateur Radio, putting together a Dipole (or most other wire ants) is about the simplest thing possible.   I certainly couldn't build an SUV or Flat Screen TV from relatively cheap components or junque pile stuff.  But an Antenna, and a pretty darn good one too (heck, even the feedline)?  Yea that's easy for under $100.

May be 'normal' for some....

I have never spent more than $5k  for a vehicle. I would never buy a new car anyway.
Never more than $175 for a new TV.
Never more than $700 for any single piece of radio related gear.

Do I still think spending $500 for a wire antenna is stupid?  YOU BET!

 Considering the OCF dipole will work no better (and probably worse) than a fan dipole (that can be built for probably well less than $100), the $500+ price tag is a rather poor value. Also consider no one will be building their own SUV, no matter the cost. Building your own dipole can be done by nearly anyone.

For some people, running out to buy the wire, go find some insulators to buy, go find some coax or ladder line to buy, maybe a balun to buy or making a balun, measuring, assembling, soldering, taping or whatever, the pruning if too long, testing, and, then the "Oh heck! I pruned it to short", now have to cut, assemble, and solder more wire, is more of hassle then its worth. Buying a fully assembled antenna and feedline that can cover multiple bands and has received positive reviews from other customers, plus with people's busy schedules, is far more attractive and worth the cost. Time and the ability to erect and use without a lot of hassle, is probably worth more to people then trying to save a few bucks.

Sometimes it pays to be cheap; sometimes it's better to just smell and enjoy the roses.

That may be Pete.... to the people that value things that way.
If you value  one, or two hours at the most of your time at more than $500, then fine, go for it!

Myself, I'd spend 8 hours a day, for a week working on that antenna before I'd shell $500 for it. Maybe even 2 weeks.

I am not in the class that can call $500  " a few bucks ", and never will be. I suppose that's one reason it shocks me to think anyone would stoop so low as to actually buy one of these.


Also, seeing that these OCF dipoles are widely available at 1/10th the cost, and likely comparable quality, it still leaves me wondering ...........
The only possible difference being the size of the Bal-Un . ...  that certainly isn't worth an extra $450 bucks in my book.


As for the "reviews" , well, I myself throw out at least 90% of "reviews", unless it can be shown  that the person writing it has a clue as to what they're talking about.

("Vista" had great reviews when it was first being released!)


btw:
Installing an OCF dipole may relieve you of the actual assembly.
But you MUST install it at exactly the right height (very low to the ground) or you WILL have to trim and/or add wire.
(Then you still need a tuner to cover the entire band(s) it is designed for.)



All boils down to how people value themselves I guess. Spending money, for those that have it, IS easier than thinking, and connecting 2 or 3 wires together...
 ;D

I think the one thing everyone failed to  ask themselves is, do the people who buy these antennas have the knowledge to build one? Know where to find the formulas for doing so?

I keep hearing about how the examinations to get you ham license has been dumb ed down so perhaps they couldn't make an antenna if they wanted too and this may be the target market of this seller? How can we find out how his sales are doing? Do we look him up in the state where he lives to see if he has a DBA or a Small corporation?  I need a new BMW, maybe this is the way to get one :D :D :D :D

 
Wire antennas are fun ;D ;D ;D

And, do they have a source for wire and what type, where to buy the insulators, cable or ladder line, can they solder, do they know how to weatherproof connections, do they have measuring tools for antenna trimming. For some, this is not a trivial exercise nor a productive use of one's time and energy.


As you look down the eHam list of small and large wire antenna manufacturers, it seems obvious that there is a definite market for this stuff. One might not agree with a particular manufacturers pricing, but if you're not in the market to buy, why would one care.

Why would amateurs buy a $3K, $5K, $7K, or $10K rig when, for a few hours, weeks, or years worth of work, they could probably whip one together with basement parts and parts from a Mouser or Digi-Key catalog.

500 bucks for a wire dipole ???  ??? ???. Less the coax ?? Incredulous !!  No Thanks !! 'll stick to my telegraph wire, ladder line , and link coupled tuner.

Pete, sounds like a pretty desperate justification  ;)  The thing that makes this a hobby or one of them, is making your own stuff.  If every single thing is plug and play, then it's no longer a hobby, it's just another consumer electronics entertainment.   If a ham doesn't have time to make a dipole, what does he have time for?   Building the dipole or anything else, isn't supposed to be this hurdle to hurry though as a waste of time, it is supposed to be an activity to be enjoyed on its own merits.   The necessary materials are all over the place at any big box store.  A dipole isn't rocket science demanding exotic unobtainium parts.   So Joe Ham doesn't know how to make one.   One of the other points of the hobby is to teach and provide learning opportunities.   Or is everyone supposed to just pass a license test, and never learn anything else again?  Well, anyway, thank you for the entertaining contrarian point of view  ;D 

Rob

The Buckmaster is a lot more than a wire dipole since it has 8 bands with low SWR and no tuner. I agree that a balanced feedline with link coupled tuner would be lowest loss. Problem is most store bought tuners have the balun on the wrong side (output), so they fry when the load is too reactive.

The $526 price were all balking at is for the 5KW 160-6m antenna with an included 6:1 balun.

Comparing the Buckmaster with the Array Solutions OCF dipole, there are some big differences. The Buckmaster antenna must be installed as described, or the balun will fry at high power. See quote below. With the Array Solutions antenna they say the built in ATU in transceivers can be used, and for high power, an external tuner is needed. They go a step further and state this for 15M where the SWR will be about 8:1. They guarantee their balun for any situation except lightning. Notice the balun link where this one is 4:1 instead of 6:1 (Buckmaster).

Maybe the classic 4:1 that Array Solutions uses is more stout than a 6:1 design, but the compromise is higher SWR with 4:1 with OCF, whereas the 6:1 provides a better match but is more fragile to mismatch?


http://hamcall.net/7bandocf.html

"Check the SWR always BEFORE using with any antenna tuner (we don't recommend an antenna tuner). It only takes overheating the Ferrite in the balun one time to change its characteristics."

Array Solutions:

OCF Dipole:
http://www.arraysolutions.com/Products/ocf_dipole.htm#top of page
look at the balun used:
http://www.arraysolutions.com/Products/baluns.htm#4:1 balun

"80m to 6m - Should work with standard transceivers with a built in ATU.              30m and 15m - with external tuner and at full rated power.  3KW and 5 KW"



Jim
WD5JKO

I think it's related to the fact that it's a bit more difficult to build your own SUV or flat screen TV than it is to fabricate a simple dipole.  ;)  There have been similar threads on the wisdom of paying thousands for a new plastic radio.

Now, those 'homebrew' dipoles, OTOH.....that's something, right thar.

Gee I'll build the dipole and help you put it up for $500.
Multiple antennas and phased array I can do discounts

They wouldn't be selling if nobody was buying.

Nobody is putting a gun to the head of the buyers.

"Yes, I'm the poor bastard who called CQ for three days in 1964 on a Gotham vertical, fed with 5' of coax next to my bedroom window, with no radials - without a single reply... "   [name withheld by request]   ;)


T

Makes me think there is a market  for my High Speed Oxygen Free CD Rewinder

You forgot the 5' of coax, Vu!

Yep, just checked with the guy.  He used  5' of RG/8U to keep the losses low. Good thing he didn't use lossy RG-59/U. Whew.

Thanks.

T

Parts availability is not a problem. Most parts can be purchased at a local hardware or home supply store. If not, there are dozens of antenna parts suppliers on the Web.

I quickly picked out some parts (didn't even look for the lowest prices) at the Wireman. All the parts needed to build a multiband dipole for $97.25. This includes 500 feet of wire (more than is needed) and a 6 kW balun. With judicious selection of parts and/or buying at a fest, you could probably cut the price in half.

I understand some people just don't want to build a wire antenna. Parts availability however, is not a legitimate excuse.

I'm not sure the parts exist to make an OCF dipole work well.   I guess when I built one I forgot to add enough patience.  I did put in the 4:1 choke balun.  I burnished the wire with EZ NEC plots.  I  chanted the descriptions of the DL versions in German.  But I was low on patience and for sure didn't pour enough in.
 

You are probably correct. That's why I listed parts for a fan dipole - same frequency coverage, better results.

One major problem with an OCF of this type...

They HAVE to be low to the ground in order to work ( vswr claims) the way they are supposed to.

An apex of 45 feet is about the top limit.

Thems that buy said dipoldes are performing a public servise.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVzt2HSvUis&feature=fvw

Perfect.  ;D

I recall my first visit to Ozona Bob's QTH (W5PYT). He had, at the house, a home made tower (at least 50'), and a huge home made "plumbers delight" 5 element 10 meter beam. I suppose even today, a trip to the big box store, along with some shop equipment at home along with a welder could reproduce such a tower and antenna, and do so at far less cost than calling up Texas Towers and ordering a 120' 45G based tower for several kilo-bucks.

The irony here is the "idiot" who bought a 8 band OCF dipole with a 40' "push-up" mast probably spent far less on their ham antenna/tower than those who are mercilessly picking on Bugmaster, and anyone who might purchase a pre-made antenna.

Oh, I can just see the visual appeal of an 8 band multi-wire fan dipole with 16 insulators, ropes, pulleys, and tie off points. Then once up, adjusting the lengths to get the SWR minimum to occur at the right place on each band. Yep, that would be simple.  ;D

Jim
WD5JKO

For that that price you could BUY a low end tri-band beam and still have money for a 80/40 homebrew dipole. This setup would out perform any OCF.

The $500 OCF is just a poor value proposition, no matter how you look at it.

Yea but Steve you only need to drill one hole in the wall.

True. But I doubt that the guy that buys this antenna will be drilling anything.

I may have recounted this story before here; if so forgive me, but a few years ago I was in a QSO with some guy up in Minnesota and I did the usual QSO thing where you give a general description of your station, so I mentioned the feedline was ladder line and a balance tuner blah blah.  He asked how I got the ladder line into the shack, so I told him how I bashed out a basement window pane and put in a plexiglass pane with two holes drilled in it for banana jacks, soldered ladder line to them on the inside and pluged the feedline into the jacks outside so I could pull the line away from the house in a thunderstorm.   Regarding the part with the bashing out of the window pane and plexiglass, he said, "Oh, my wife would never let me do that."   I think one of the bigger unspoken hammy hambone restrictions isn't CCRs and HOAs; it's the XYL.  I think all of the hams I know who pretty much put up anything they want, made sure their YLs were ham friendly before they became XYLs. 

 

Good story Rob. I always suggest to such XYL-laden hams that they take up stamp collecting.

But if they DID while the buyers were on the air would anyone hear it?

I can think of a couple of hams who use reverse psychology and just show the XYL pictures of ham basements - or drive by the house of certain hams.  Vortex Joe's basement or KC1XX's eleven-tower / 110 Yagis QTH comes to mind. The XYL quickly realizes what a stable, hihi FB, level headed  XYM she has, and let's him do what he wants afterwards...  It's all relative  ;D

T

A few years ago at Dayton someone had a SUV with around 100 antennas on it, a hole in the rear roof through which a mast protruded with VHF yagis on it, the back had been stripped out and the walls lined with s.s. amps, the dashboard had been replaced with a console that held around 30 rigs...it was totally insane and ever since I have wished I had brought a camera with me to get a few pixs because you had to see it to believe it.

Whatever happened to Gotham?  Bare bones cheap antennas!  That might be a tremendous business opportunity.  Perhaps you could sell franchises for sale of the products and  develop a good relationship with some scrap yards to get cheap aluminum tubing.

On the other end of the spectrum...you could market accessories and supplies to the "high-end" crowd  Such things as antenna wax and rope stretchers might be popular items.  Custom crafted antennas made from oxygen free, super conductive insulated wire in decorator colors with matching/contrasting colored insulators would be great for those antenna restricted areas.

73, Jack, W9GT

You need to roll those "good of days" prices to 21st century pricing to develop a "cheap antenna" comparison. Marketing antennas and antenna accessories seems to be a great niche business. You should develop a business plan.

Unfortunately, much of the basis for those prices probably is product liability protection costs...such things weren't required in the "good old days" when individual responsibility was considered when some dummy dropped his antenna across the power lines.  Now he (or his survivors) will sue the antenna manufacturer as well as the power company and will probably collect.

73,  Jack, W9GT

The Wireman is doing an excellent job in this area of business. His prices are reasonable, and his service is great.

Walt

I bought them out years ago, and destroyed all prints, tooling and materials for the welfare of all mankind. I didn't want another human to go through antenna hell like I did  ;D

But seriously, after seeing the huge list of antenna makers that Pete posted above, there sure is competition.  MFJ is possibly the one who could capitalize on it.  Those $30 3 element Gotham Yagis sure seemed tempting back then.

I knew a ham who ordered their Gotham's quad. He said after opening the box he realized it would fall apart and instead used the poles for short antenna supports.

T

Prints?  What Prints? I thought you had to draw your own!  Maybe that is why my Gotham 15 M beam worked.  I just used the tubing, made my own boom to mast and element to mast clamps and it worked.  Also, that tapped wire "gamma match" had to go...made my own with a piece of coax stuffed inside a piece of tubing.

73,  Jack, W9GT