The AM Forum

I was carrying on a QSO with my friends W1SNG, Glenn & KB1IAW, Paul.  Suddenly a slopbucket QSO came on and pretty much terminated the QSO.  I was running 50 (not 51, Fred) watts.  Glenn and Paul were running about the same power.

Afterwards, I politely interjected my call on SSB and was recongnized. I stated that it may have been conditions but that they broke up our AM QSO because they had started theirs on top of ours.  The only response I got was "OK" and they continued their QSO as though nothing had been said.  No apologies no nothing.  It really makes a case for me to get off my butt an get that 813 rig done -- or be an appliance oopertor and purchase a max power linear so I can be a tall ship and keep these inconsiderate individuals at bay.

Al

Al, one 813 or two?   ;)

50 watts isn't enough at night to clear a path but as Derb once said, the thing that makes a strapper is the antenna.  What's your antenna?   To me the strapper priorities are in order, antenna, audio power/processing closely followed by carrier (i.e. RF power).

Most of us (like myself) can't do the tall ship antenna thing so we have to settle for the best we can do in that area then try to max out the other two. 

Rob

i would really recomend maybe building an sbe transmitter. a sbe transmitter has an effect i have never seen anything else do to a really close ssb qso,, it makes it go away.

Hi Al..too bad this kinda thing persists..yud think after 40+ years of SSB versus AM there might be civility..but no..ah well just for ur piece of mind Al I heard you and FSJ and a couple others in QSO today between snowblowin rounds..sure FSJ who uses maybe a tad more pwr was at times 30 over 9 but you were not far behind at 10 over 9 on the National..the other fellers barely made S9 if that so don't sell ur set-up short by any means..I'd be proud as punch to beat more than 35 watts outta both rigs here at the present..no antenna yet as Ma Nature heard of my plans and put and end to that..soon though soon..and as Rob said half the battle is ur antenna anyhoo..no truer words were ever spoken but agn Al don't count ur sigs out by any means..ur always Q5 here!
                                                           73 de DAVE

Ahhh........contactus interruptus.

Al, this sounds like just another case of the sense of entitlement or "me-first" sentiment which is so prevalent in American society nowadays, and obviously found quite commonly on the amateur radio bands. No different from the general lack of etiquette and politeness on the roads we probably all experience daily. In a car, on the Internet, or esconced safely in their shack, people do these kinds of things much more readily when they are unseen and more or less anonymous. Really a pity......and such a sign of gross immaturity and moral bankruptcy.

73,

Bruce

Remember the time I found the wallet at Deerfield with over $1000 in it.
I had it posted over the PA. When the guy came and got it he acted like I picked his pocket and didn't even thank me. A lot of losers out in radio land.
Turned out the guy was a slop bucket Collins flipper.

Too bad you weren't aware of that when you first found it.   ;D

I assume you did verify that he was the rightful owner.

Frank, a good friend of mine lost his wallet on an out-of-state trip a number of years ago. Someone found the wallet, contacted my buddy, and returned the wallet with everything in place and untouched, and they even paid for the return shipping. When the wallet was received, my friend offered to provide a generous reward, which was completely refused by the finder. They also refused to accept any reimbursement for the return shipping fees.

There are still good, honest, and gracious people out there. We just have to be lucky enough to cross paths with them in the course of our lives.

Sorry Al; I think this thread is being hijacked from the original topic!

73,

Bruce

Nailed it!
Sad but true, a most poignant and pithy observation Mr. XR.

-Bruce

So what would have explained such behavior (and it did happen) back in the 30's, 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's?

Steve,

Such behavior has certainly always existed to a greater or lesser degree and most likely always will, and is unfortunately, very much a part of the human condition. I am suggesting that I (and others) believe it is getting worse in the current era.

Speaking with folks (including my parents) over the years who did live through the '30s, '40s, etc., and listening to their comments as to how people in this country related to each other in general during those periods, I have heard repeatedly that the self-serving, selfish, and narcissistic behavior I was commenting on is much worse nowadays. Although I myself did not live in the '30s or the '40s, I have been very much aware and cognizant of the way people relate to each other since my coming of age beginning in the late 1960s. Based upon my own personal experience and observations vis-a-vis this subject, and others within this forum may well agree, I suspect that I am not alone in this view of this condition worsening.

Perhaps there is good reason as to why some in this country regard those Americans who so unselfishly served, fought and died for this country during the Second World War, and fought for democracy against the fascism in Europe and Asia during that period, among other significant positive achievements, are referred to as the "Greatest Generation".

Strictly an opinion, an observation, and my $0.02. And boy, is this thread getting off topic! My apologies, Al!

73,

Bruce

Al,

Now you'll understand why I run a full 51 watts.

51watt Fred

Refer Madness.

Al, the pattern the last few years during the Winter has been SSB'ers encroaching (or worse) the traditional AM area because the Tall Ships have moved ther operating to 160. 

That's the kind of guy who doesn't leave a tip in a restaurant because he figures he's never going back there again.

Same kind of guy who picks up his tip when he sees someone else at the table leave a large tip.

Or the guy who takes out-of-town visitors to dinner, then sticks them with the bill.

Or the guy who takes credit for the words, work, or success of others, like lifting things from the internet pages of others to bolster their own image.  

And the list goes on...


Things were better then, Steve. Rosy and happy all the live-long day. Pay no attention to those columns in QST and elsewhere about bad behavior on the radio, OM. That's the ticket.  ::)

In all seriousness - bad behavior has existed as long as civilization has, and probably before. The only saving grace back in the good ol' days was likely fewer people, and/or less visibility through things like TV, the internet, and so on.

And Al, your experience is one that many of us have had through the decades. A few years back I was on 80m talking with Slab and a few others. It was a contest weekend and I was responding to Slab as he went upstairs to get something. When I unkeyed, a K8 station was calling CQ on the frequency, loud and clear. I went back to him several times to tell him the frequency was in use, to which he finally replied "I don't care". Turns out Buddly knew the guy. When he contacted him to ask about it, the guy claimed someone else was using his station. mhm.

The more things change, the more they stay the same. They live amongst us. Here and everywhere.

W3DBB said:
He actually said Grant was splattering "all the way up the band". I was talkng to Grant at the time so I opened up the PowerSDR display and took a couple screenshots. I also had the HP8591E tuned in and verified Grant was -45dBc at @4kHz. No splatter. Most of these guys have no idea what IMD is and how previlent it is in the riceboxes. They just can't handle strong adjacent signals.

Once this was known the guy mumbled some more and then went away. Six other stations came on in the next few minutes to verify my findings and everythng was fine the rest of the night.

I got the same thing on 3733 the other night and simply replied "file a complaint with the FCC and leave me the hell alone" and went on with my qso. After a few minutes of QRM the guy went away. In fact, later that night I heard the same guy, with his faithful followers, on 1888kHz QRMing the AM qso on 1885kHz. Not getting a response they moved to 1878kHz to QRM 1880kHz.

Don K4KYV has the right answer. Strap and Ignore!
Never give up........ never say die!


 

I heard the whole exchange that Al posted. I heard him try to break into the ssb group and get completely ignored. He had to drop his call 3 times before they figured out he was not going away.
Al, your original conclusion is right on. This brand of idiots won't usually bother with really big signals. There are other idiots for that......

It's not hard to imagine the overwhelming probability of what would have happened if the situation had been reversed and he had been the one who found the wallet.

My point is that a single incident or anecdote involving amateur radio does not say anything about society at large. Pop psychology really adds nothing to the conversation.

Al, I'm sorry you got QRMed. We all know such things should not happen. But they do and have always happened on 75 meters. Unfortunately, more power is usually the answer. Same as it ever was.

Steve,

In retrospect, and particularly with regard to my postings on this topic, I think you are absolutely correct with regard to your observation that "a single incident or anecdote involving amateur radio does not say anything about society at large".

However, for my own edification, could you clarify how the term "pop psychology" is applicable here? It is a somewhat overused cliche or metaphor.

Thanks & 73,

Bruce

Bruce an karma would have it.
About a year later I jump out of my truck at Deerfield and my wallet falls on the ground as I walk away. I didn't have any money in it but credit card license and other crap were in it. I walk around for a couple hours buying stuff before It dawns on me that I have no wallet in my pocket. I go back to the truck and there is is sitting on the ground.
Steve, every generation has its share of losers. Maybe we are at the age where we notice it more.

But from being on the air since 1959 and listening several years before then, I can attest that although not unheard before then, the predominance of deliberate QRM and jamming increased many-fold during the AM vs slopbucket wars of the 1960's and to this day the legacy is still with us. Maybe just a coincidence, or maybe once the genie escaped from the bottle he couldn't be forced back in. In any case, as always, a strapping signal is the best countermeasure.

Here is my solution to the lost wallet problem.  I bought this on line several years ago.  It holds all the essentials: driving permit, debit card, insurance cards, etc.  It fits in my front pocket and is very comfortable; I can't even tell it's there unless I feel for it.  Of course I can't cram it full of cash or carry a jillion credit cards, but I never did that any way. Notice how it is shaped to fit the front pocket.

I used to never carry a full size wallet on my person unless I knew I would be needing it.  It would tend to work its way out of a rear pocket and was uncomfortable in front or back. I just kept it in the glove box of the car and carried nothing but a little cash with me. If I wasn't driving I would often just leave it at the house. I usually carry cash in a different place anyway.

The only problem was when I found myself driving one vehicle and remembered the wallet was in the other. The one shown in the picture resolved the wallet issue once and for all.

I don't doubt that one bit, Don. When the move to SSB from AM was taking place, the ARRL was promoting it, of course. So that had to add plenty of fuel to the fire, and no doubt the driving off of AMers appeared 'sanctioned' to some.

In fact, I recall hearing a story back in the 70s/early 80s from an OT who was around when 'fone first became an option. He spoke of the same thing happening with CW ops who hated 'fone and swore they'd never use it. He said there were some who went after the CW ops too. Even the book 200 Meters and Down mentions battles between CW ops with plenty of jamming taking place.

I do prefer the 'tune up the wick and ignore' approach. With memories still fresh of being a pissweaker running a 32V-2, low power AM has zero appeal. Been there, done that, can understand Al's frustration.

I agree that the push toward SSB was so strong that people were left to conclude something must be "wrong" with AM, so we had to defend the mode on its own merits, and still do so, today.

CW ops, I've been told, faced the same problem as "Phone" was becoming popular, and they were left on the defensive.  More recently, it still raised hackles in the CW community when the FCC reapportioned the sub-bands to more closely reflect today's popularity of "phone" modes, including AM.

What's sad for the ARRL, if it had any leadership role among modes and activities, is that they first had to defend acceptance of "AM Phone" against CW loyalists, but then abandoned this acceptance when SSB came in. Thus, AM had no representation in Newington as time went on.

That's the kind of mugwump that will buy something from you after negotiating your price down and then go put it on his table for 2x the price, and after enough people snicker at his price, he will return with it and demand you take the merchandise back and refund his money. Those kind got the diode on their wallet big time. Always get cash from that kind and never give it back.

I wasn't particularly overly exercised about the experience - just disappointed that the behavior of some stain the overall "brotherhood" experience.  It just reinforces the need for me to carve out some time and get some more fire in the wire.

Here's the plan for the W1VTP station:

• Raise the center of the dipole from the current 35+ feet to ~65 feet
• Replace the current trap dipole with some sort dipole that will work on 160, 75 and 40 meters
• Increase power (fire in wire effect)

Thing is I have been very pleased with the behavior on the frequency of the QRP net.  We seem to be given some space even though the opportunity is there for squatting on top of the net.

This was more or less a reality check for me that the human condition of inconsiderate behavior is still in  place - even in the amateur radio fraternity. There was a lot of editorializing in the early days of amateur radio about "rotten operating" - nothing's changed.

Thanks for your kind replies

Al

That worked for Bud in Lorain, WD8BIL.  He used to have a mediocre signal here, not bad but not strapping.  Then he hoisted his antenna up to something like 80ft.  Now he STRAPS into here.  The new broadcast quality T4X with the controlled carrier removed, working into a big leen-yar helps, too.  Hopefully the new antenna didn't suffer too much damage from the storm.


Actually, AM never had more than lukewarm acceptance by the League. Read through some of the old QSTs.  Before WW2 the magazine contained abundant examples of derisive remarks about phone operators, despite the fact that there were construction articles in both QST and the Handbook for phone rigs.
This continued after the War.  I remember a regular feature in the late 40s and early 50s called "75m Phone Band Funnies".  They never got serious about promoting phone on the HF bands until SSB came along.

Excellent! Instead of P&Ming, you are doing something about it. That approach means something positive will come out of what was a negative incident. You get the last laugh. Bravo!

Just look at their (ARRL) example on 40 meters. They list 7290 in the bandplan as an AM Calling frequency then turn around and sanction the 7290 SSB traffic net!

If that doesn't send mixed signals.........??????

No pun intended.

No one owns a frequency. You also forgot W1AW phone bulletins on 7290  ;D

Right.  A few days ago I stumbled over an article in ER from about 10 years ago by Lew McCoy titled "ARRL Memories" or some such.  He reminisced about when he got hired at ARRL.   It was around 1950 and he wrote that the league HQ staff was almost entirely CW ops and he was thought of as "the phone guy."   He wrote that he had to deal with a lot of suspicion and cold shoulders.   The CW guys all hated phone.   He was in the communications dept. and reported to Handy W1BDI.  

I could go on for a few hundred words on the QRM psychology but suffice to say it is similar to that of Internet trolls.  Don's method is probably best together with ignoring them.  But one thing I think is important that has not been emphasized much is audio processing.   Don and other strappers have a "secret weapon,"  being loud with tight peak limiting and a lot of audio driving the limiter and plenty of audio headroom.   But the antenna is still king so Al getting the dipole up 65 feet is great.  I wish I could get mine up higher than its 45 - 50 feet.   Brandon KF5IIA got an additional 20 dB here when his went from around 30 feet to 70 feet.   Cheapest 20 dB you can get.

Rob

As Don has stated many a time, turn up the wick.

Don't feel bad or picked on if ya get QRMed.    The social mood peaked this decade reflected in all the "save the whirl" songs and has been moving down to the beat of "let's kick some ass" songs... ;D  It will get worse so expect it. It's actually cool now to be a tough guy on the air, at least to some. The whirl has really changed and is in a social bear mkt down. We have discussed this here for about 8 years now. It's a BIG trend that effects everyone.

One thing that does work in QRM conflicts is to confront them with a big signal on ssb. If you get in their face using their own mode, they WILL listen to you. The same if they were to switch to a big carrier AM signal - we would listen too.

My attitude is, I don't go around looking to bother you - why are you coming at me?  A little dialog back and forth can sometimes produce a compromise where they move up and we move down a little. They will always have a bias about AM being wider, however.

After that, as said here in previous posts, put in the effort to have a big mawl. Al/VTP, you're doing the right thing and sometimes these events DO produce good results in the end, as the Huzman wisely said.

T  

To bad it happened, sure has changed since 1958. A lot believe they own the frequency and the band anymore since they give away the license from what it use to be.
I work cw and they dont listen, just tune and operate..you go away hi, same with digital you operaste rtty and some  %$#@ comes on top of you on psk, and hey I only run 15 to 20 watts. 

I am new back in the operation of AM , and have had a lot of fun so far on it, a lot of fine ops, and sitting here listening a lot of ignorants jumping on frequency with sweep oscillators or a homemade jammer, interesting, but I guess just plow on thru usually the trouble makers get tired of it.

See you guys on 75 AM with my 35 watts..look out for those who dont give a da...

POB/K8LEN

Hi Pob, welcome !

Looking forward to working you some time.

It is on behalf of stations like yours, running a few dozen watts, that many of us debate, discuss and defend AM activity as being every bit as deserving of a spot on the dial as any other non-emergency, non essential communications among radio hobbyists.

Sure, it's easy to say turn up the wick, or improve the antenna, but the fact remains, 51 Watt Fred will still be out there with 51 Watts, struggling to be heard !  

He deserves that clear spot as much as anyone, and the lack of respect from operators using incompatible modes is a behavioral issue that has no easy answer.

With all of this said, I confer fully with Don and others- - -"Strap and ignore"
Crank up a big signal and make no mention that you are doing it, just keep on talking like nothing is happening.

Lets face it If you are really serious about AM, especially on 75/80M you have got to have at least one big gun in your arsenal!! And I dont mean a 100w table top rig.

Just if nothing else, for the times you may need it  ;D  ;)

Then why have a bandplan?

A guide to where on the HF or VHF/UHF bands various modes and activities are generally found.

A guide the writers themselves ignore!
Now it makes sense!

A guide offers basic information or instruction; it's not something cast in concrete.

For those that operated mil nets, especially during the Cold War time frame, remember the rules for working through jamming [paraphrased]:

1. Continue to operate
2. Ignore the jammer
3. Boost power, antenna height, directional antenna
4. Move to alternate freq only if these do not work

If you were lucky enough to have an EW outfit you could call, add following:
3A.  Have EW find location of jammer
3B.  Take offensive action if possible [interpreted to be 'if it fits rules of engagement' at the time and location]

Al, never bring a peashooter to a gunfight.

50W is for 10 and 6M; even a single 813 will be stomped on 75. Run a pair with some real plate modulation or real tubes for a linear. A pair of GG 4-400's will run the "legal" limit as a linear.

Do you have room for a directional receive antenna? One that you can steer the null?

Carl

Don,

I too, was tired of sitting on a big lump of wallet and having to put up with moving it to my front pocket when I was in a crowd. After you posted the pic of your front pocket wallet I went Googling and found it. My Rogue Wallet Weekender got here today and I like it already.

http://www.roguewallet.com/wk.html (http://www.roguewallet.com/wk.html) for folks who want one.

Thanks for that post, Don.

ldb
K5WLF

Exactly , Paul.

 Sadly the "Strap and ignore " mentality is commonly used by AMers against other AM QSOs.  The big rig boys all too often fire right on top of ongoing QSOs . There is no doubt they are aware of the fact they are interfering but because they hear each other they just take over (or try to) the frequency. No difference from what the SSB ops did in the case at hand.

Is it the first wednesday already?

To maintain an AM QSO
      it has always worked better to use a multi mode transceiver and large linear amp to quickly comment that there is

an existing QSO on or near the frequency in a calm bored tone in the language the hecklers understand

  which is Silly Side Band, on their frequency as strong or stronger then they are.   

Hi John.  Very long time no hear.  Trust you are doing well.  Well, I mostly did that but the QSO had been terminated due to intereference before I contacted them on SSB.  True, I was only running 300 watts PEP SSB at the time I contacted them but the point was made.  Again, the response was "OK" and then the individual who responded continued with his conversation with the other person as though nothing had happened. What actually happened in this instance was suddenly this strong SSB signal broke up our QSO so there really should not have been any excuse for suddenly initiating a QSO on our frequency - they could hear that there was a QSO in progress.  I have the advantage of seeing the spectrum on either side of my usage frequency and there was plenty of opportunity for these people to take up their QSO elsewhere.  Heck, they could even have broken in and asked if they could have coordinated a frequency search and have moved on.  I could have managed that sort of dialogue but it did not happen.

I was not P&Ming -- just making a comment that, perhaps, we as gentlemen can appreciate that we should be aware of the frequency we are using and of any co-channel usage.  Conditions / skip change almost on a minute to minute basis and it is conceivable that we (as gentlemen) could be having a QSO only to discover that our QSO has "collided" with another on the same channel or close by.  Our response should always be polite and concerned that we maintain a common brotherhood additude to our fellow amateur radio operators.

I think this thread has served a good purpose of maintaining awareness of proper operating practice and a good attitude toward others that we meet on the air.  We all have hitched a ride on this Space Ship called Earth - we should be setting an example of how to get along with each other.

Best regards, John es 73, Al

  Hi Al Dear Friend; Then here on Tera Firma made from sand not concrete. There are those who lack attention and must often or occasionally beat others illogically (pulling the chains of an angry, non loving puppet). To turn the cheek to them and chuckle helps sometimes. If only we could get them to say what is really bugging them then we could also explain to them that we are also always imperfect no matter how hard we try.  Really miss the Soap Opera of 75 Meter AM and SSB. 73  John 

Gonna to relocate some snow and have my Buddy KE1Y's son Matt show he is a certified German Snowbound Engineer here also

There's an awful lotta swishers lately too. Makes you wanna go find them and interrupt their face with a tooba four, caw mon.

I think that's lids who don't know any better looking at swr up and down a band for the antenna they're using.