The AM Forum

Here are 2 pretty nice engine quizzes, try 'em and see hou you do!!

I aced this one:

http://www.americantorque.com/view_qs/engine-id/

And I missed one on this one:

http://www.americantorque.com/view_qs/60s-V8-engine-ID/

How well did you do.....................................................

I guess I'm out of my league with those 'spark plug thingies'

Most of my toys have Rootes blowers and injectors....

73DG

 You the Man, I only got 5 and 4. I've never even SEEN a studebaker engine!

Guess I'll stick to Chevys.

I'm humbled...7 & 7. Guess the memory is going.

13 out of 17 on the first and 16 out of 19 on the second. Thanks for the links,it was very interesting seeing what my mind picked out first when it came to picking out items on each engine that would help me identify it.

12/17 on the first one, only 9/19 on the second. I only messed with Chevy so I am happy for what I got. Never found out why the dip stick was changed for the early Chevy elephant. A pretty neat looking motor. My friend has a 409, had a blast working on that one. Damn that stupid carrier bearing in the drive train!

Those pix or the rusty rat rods make me want to get one.

Oh yeah ya like your two stroke diesels? Awesome  ;) Me too.

10/19 on second.

One person I met in high school was a kid whose father started the PA Sturdevant torque wrench company. I suspect he had a few bucks.

He had a late 1960s 426 Hemi powered Dodge Power Wagon..He put on quite a show lighting up all four tires.

Another acquaintance drove his dad's Blue '67 427 Impala. Or his own '68 Z-28 Camaro convert. Orange stripes over white. One beautiful car.

I'd kill for either one today.

I had a '67 GTO...The cops would swing by every Saturday night at Sandy's drive in and ask us why we were flipping over the lids on our carb air cleaners- LOL.

My brother had a '68 Chevelle that he dropped a 454 in. And a '67 Corvair with a 350 in where the back seat was. Looked totally stock, except for the side exhausts.  I'd kill for that car today, too!

OTOH, my chipped 7.3L turbo diesel pickup boogies pretty well.

Thanks for the mammaries.

I got two wrong on each. Interesting one Ford picture I saw made me remember skinning my hand on that weird bracket you had to lift up to tighten the belt. A couple good guesses I made were based on stuff in the engine compartment.

Hi Bill,

Please excuse my lack of knowledge on these matters, but how did he fit a 350 in that rear-engined Corvair? I didn't know that could be done.

Thanks!

73,

Bruce

"You got 13 right out of 17."

Where's International Harvester.

No Aluminum Buicks?

Bruce... You could turn the transaxle around and use a adapter plate. www.v8vairs.com

When I lived in l.A. my neighbor had a 350 in a Vega. He took me for a ride once. The whole body twisted like a beer can every time he punched it.

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the information and the link.

I had no idea guys were doing these kinds of extensive mods to Corvairs. The website shows a number of Corvairs that were converted to water pumper rear engine and mid-engine configurations.

I remember the running joke about Corvairs back in the 1960s and 1970s (even though GM discontinued the car in 1969); they always marked their spot where the car was parked. Chronic oil leak issues.

73,

Bruce

12V-71 Detroits are way kool. that one prolly sounds real good with those pipes.
there will always be a warm spot in my heart for 2-stroke Detroit Diesels. that is the first street rod I have ever seen with one!!

I never understood why they did it that way, but with the 348 / 409 series, one had the dipstick tube going into the block at the deck surface and the other had a long tube that took it all the way down to the pan.  ???  ???

12/17 on the first one
12/19 on the second one

I'm pretty poor on GM engines, but did well on the early Mopars, Studebakers, etc.

11/17 and 11/19.  Interesting.....should have included some old in-line stuff, like Chevy/GMC stovebolts, etc. 

73,  Jack, W9GT

I think it is definately more Hot Rod oriented, But..................
It would be pretty neat if they threw in some Model As, Ts, 4-cyl chevys and other wierd and unusual stuff. Maybe a Lincoln Zephyr V-12 or a vintage Cadillac V-16!!

Screw the sheetmetal, I just cant help it, I'm an engine kind of guy!!


Here is one for youse guys!! Who knows what the difference between a Ford model "A" engine and a model "B" engine is??

                                                 OR

What year did Ford come out with the V8-60 flathead V8??

                                                 OR

What year did Chrysler first come out with the "A series" Hemi and what was it's displacement??

Who knows what the difference between a Ford model "A" engine and a model "B" engine is??
A and B engines are the same displacement at 200 CID. The A engine has gravity fed mains and splash for the con rod lubrication. The B engine has larger size journals for mains and rods, plus the mains are pressure fed.
                                                 OR

What year did Ford come out with the V8-60 flathead V8??

V8 60 introduced in 1937 and ran through approximately 1940. This was not a real popular engine as every one was already used to the 85 HP version. It was used in quite a few of the midget racers.

mike

IIRC early Hemi was 331 C.I.1951 same as someone elses from 1949 maybe Olds.

331 is also my guess.

I think the P&W wasp was a hemi

I tied the OP, blew the Stude in the 2nd round.

Grew up with that stuff and had many. A few I just voted based on the block color as the stockers were in a color rut.

Shuda had a test with all the variations of the Ford/Merc V-8 flathead......thats my favorites.
Model A's are for dropping a 59A block into.

Carl

The Funk Airplane Used the model "B" ford engine, upside down of course,because of its pressure fed mains.....The flying Funk......The Funk brothers also made adaptor kits to put the flathead ford 6 and flathead ford v8 in the 2N,9N,8N ford tractors......

The Funk Airplane Used the model "B" ford engine, upside down of course,because of its pressure fed mains.....The flying Funk......The Funk brothers also made adaptor kits to put the flathead ford 6 and flathead ford v8 in the 2N,9N,8N ford tractors......

This engine would have required crankshaft modifications to pressurize the rod throws as the original B engine, like the A engine is a splash system for the rod throws. I would be interested in any information confirming the fact these engines were run upside down....

mike

this goes to prove that AMers arent "one trick ponies"

I love old cars and engines as well as old radios. Looks like I'm not alone.

Mike,
       you missed one important point about the model "B"! It had a fuel pump!!
this meant that you didnt have to back it up steep hills to keep fuel flowing to the carb. The model A was gravity fed from the fuel tank in the cowl.

Dave,
       you were right about the Hemi. 331 CID came out 1951. But I'm surprised you missed who they were playing the numbers game with.....................
Your favorite brand Cadillac!! Seems that back then Chrysler and Cadillac were having a pecker matching contest??

Yes....The original engines for the Funk Model B were "inverted and converted" by the Funk Bros of Coffeyville , Kansas...Google it up..there is lots of info...Most Funk airplanes were later converted to Continental and Lycoming air cooled engines in the 65 to 85 HP range...I have heard of one that had installed a GO-300 which is a geared crank Continental that produced 175 HP.!! I wonder how that worked??  I had the honor of knowing Daryl, "Arkie"W7NVB, an AMer in Spokane,WA. He owned a Funk with the original Ford B engine...I saw the plane many times at his T hanger at the Mead airport...I never got to fly the plane but I did see Daryl fly it... Arkie is a SK now but I have heard that his Funk and another model B are still flying around in the Spokane area..

wanna see real power look up the tail pipe of an SR71. 100 foot flame 3 feet wide. Then there is the F119 motor burns a purple flame in AB.
We have jet motor pictures all over our area.

My brain is bruised right now or I would have emembered that Caddy started the horsepower race.

Here's one nobody can agree on:

What is the difference between a small block and big block V8?

Part II. Who made the largest displacement regular production small block?

Small block vs big block....Are we talking Chevys???
Part II...Chev produced a 400cid smallblock...Is that the largest displacement ???

all time coolest sounding piston motor is A B17 at idle on a cool damp morning
4 wasps belching fire

Northern air cargo is still flying the DC-6 in cargo configuration in Alaska...They fly low on approach into King Salmon airport right over my place in Naknek...going low and slow..... 4 big radials chugging along...A great sound..I've been at the airport for a cold spring morning startup of the DC-6...lots of belching,farting,white smoke, and fire shooting out of the exhaust collectors before they all settle into a nice rumbling idle...I've seen these aircraft with an (over)load of fish take off from the gravel strip at Togiak...Tires bulging, gravel crunching and then the big roar of the 4 radials at max power as the tail of the plane is engulfed in the cloud of dust..

the difference between SB and BB is a relative thing. In order th have both, a MFR would have had to produce both. IE: If they only produced one casting it would be neither or both. (There was never such a thing as a SB Cadillac) or at least to my knowledge. They were 331, then 390, then 429, then 472 / 500, and back to 425CID, but they never produced more than one series at a time. (I may have missed one between 331 and 390??)

Chev 400 SB ascually neasured 402 CID (the same as the later 402 BB) The bore was speced as .001" less than the BB IIRC. I think those new LS series Chev "small blocks" are available up to something like 427CID or somewhere right in that area.

The Funk Airplane must have been an interesting debaccle, seeing that the crankshaft in the model "B" motor was NOT counterweighted!! I bet that was a vibrating MOFO!! Almost as strange as a Gnome. the inverted engine that I liked was a Ranger, they were pretty kool!

How many of you airplane buffs know what Gnome engine is!!  ;D  ;D

Nothing compared to a Saturn V.

Cadillac went down another bore step with the 472 all the way to 368.

They did have what could only be a small block. The HT-4100 wet sleeve V8 which lacked block strength without bolting it to a transaxle as used in RWD Cadillacs when the public still wanted them. 83-85. Most died a nasty death. Later same engine worked well with a little more metal in the right places.

Nope the 400 Chevy was not the largest small block.

ya lost me on this one, Dave?? Did they produce this engine concurrenty with the 425 or after it?? If they produced it after it, i dont know whether it would be considered a SB Caddy or just simply a Caddy engine ???  ???

Caddy debored the 425 all the way to 368 in 1980. The 8/6/4 modulated displacement was a 368 in 1981. 81 was the only year for the 8/6/4 in regular Cadillacs. They quietly used that engine all the way to /85 in some limos.

The HT-4100 4.1 liter came out in late 1982 and was the reason so many clean RWD Cadillac bodies were available for short money in the 80s. Twas fun dropping a 500 under the hood. They the car had exactly double the factory displacement and nobody could tell form the outside.

Ask VJB how well his ex cop car kept up with my 507 powered 83 Coupe Deville.

The most impressive part of a Satern 5 motor is the size of the fuel pipe feeding it, I saw a motor in its side at Edwards once. I figure it was about 8 inch ID.

How many of you airplane buffs know what a Gnome is?

Is the Gnome engine a rotary...?  The crankshaft is fixed to the firewall and the cylinders rotate around the crank...The prop is attached to the rotating cylinder assembly....2 stroke using cod liver oil or ?? With so much rotating mass it was easy to turn left and almost impossible to turn right...especially with all that oil mist on your goggles...

Slab....I like the ranger engine...Inverted, air cooled.... I have seen a 6 cyl ranger that was disassembled..Beautiful inside with polished con rods and crank....The inside of the block was treated to a lot of polishing as well...I think they made a v 12 version too...

The Funk Airplane must have been an interesting debaccle, seeing that the crankshaft in the model "B" motor was NOT counterweighted!!

Not so, the original B engines were not counter weighted, how ever in late '32 or there abouts Ford made a running production change to a counter weighted crankshaft. Initially the counter weights were a style of sweated on and pinned counter weights, Ford then made a running change of forging the counter weights at the time of manufacture to the crankshaft.

Chevrolet made two versions of a 400, there is the 400 SBC and they also made a 402 based on the 396 CID series engine, IE big block design. The 400 SBC externally looks th same as a 350 or others in that series of engine, how ever the cylinders are siamesed together.

mike

Steve,
          Kool that you would have known what a Gnome was!! What a strange engine!!  I guess you could consider it 2 cycle ???  ??? What a Debaccle they were.
A radial engine with centrifugal scavenging. they would run 2200 rpm wide F'ing open!! (Imagine the vibraton) I saw a reproduction model of one at a show. It was about 12" in diameter and runnung!! The guy told me that it was scaled down from the original blueprint drawings. And wierd enough, the model would only run 2200RPM WFO go figger!! They also had one new in the crate in the hanger at the flying Circus's hanger down in Bealton Va. (for display only)

I have seen rangers in 50's vintage sprint cars. they are both kool and kool looking.
A beautiful piece of engineering. there is a guy who brings one to some of the antique engine shows around here mounted on a trailer. It also starts easily and runs well.

Wow,
        thanks, Mike I never knew that!! You got me with that one!!

The 400 SB chev was much maligned in it's early days because of the siamesed cylinders.
I built a few of them for people. (They used to be cheap and plentiful.) It didnt take much to make them come alive!!



Yowsa, yowsa can you say gallons to the mile!!

Slab...There was (is?) a Fokker triplane at Silverwood theme park in Athol Idaho that had an original Gnome rotary engine...it was of course painted up like the Red Baron's...I saw it years ago before The little Athol airport became a theme park....I think they put a 145 Warner on that plane so they could fly it more...The Warner is a radial of about the same physical size and has more power.....You are correct in that the Gnome ran full bore all the time and the pilot has to cut the ignition to slow the engine down for landing...I believe they used Castor oil and not Cod liver oil like I said....

Steve,
          I hope they kept the engine. At least for display!! I'm sure just about anything else would be an improvement over the Gnome!

Airplane and Marine engines took engine design science into new and uncharted waters. Some were very kool!! But you know, that was a lot of exotic machinery just to spin a big wooden fan !!

gnome was like the tail wagging the dog

thatz about the best analogy I've heard for it!!   ;D  ;D

Its still bruised ;D

If we leave out the Duesenberg, the Graham and Ford had a supercharger option in 39-40 and Buick had dual carbs available on both size engines in 41-42.

Postwar it was the 303 Olds Rocket that started the race, Caddy just had a few more inches but they announced after the Olds.

Things were relatively quiet until the 331 Hemi BUT the 308 Twin H Hudson Hornet whipped its ass (and everyone else) on the track and it was a flathead 6.

Then the Chrysler 300 changed everything for good. Caddy tried to impress the public with dual quads on the Eldorado but they didnt do anything else useful to the block and heads.

One of my favorites was the 58 Mercury Super Maruder option with a 430 MEL motor and 3 2bbl carbs. It had 400hp and 500Ft# of torque. I had a 58 Lincoln with the 375/490 version and that 5000Lb tank got up and went.....to the gas station.

Carl

OK, Carl, I can still point to Cadillac starting the horsepower race in 1930 with the V-12 and V-16, causing Packard to bring out an updated "twin six" V-12 (which they discontinued in the early 20s), Marmon with a V-16, and I think Auburn, Pierce-Arrow, and a few others had V-12s.  Lincoln's pathetic little 280 or so cubic inch V-12 wasn't a contender here.  Except for the Lincoln V-12 that lasted thru '48, everyone else abandoned V-12s and V-16s by '41.

Of course these vehicles were for the carriage market, usually having custom-built bodies, and many times weren't owner-driven.  And it's doubtful that any were raced.  But it was certainly a "pecker matching" contest perhaps between captains of industry back in the 30s.

One of the reasons the Hudson Hornets were so successful was they handled and braked a lot better than the competition.  The Twin-H power flat 6 was powerful enough, but not a real barn burner.

The 402 came with a 2 barrel carbonator. 400 small block had a quadrajet.

Still not the largest small block..........

IIRC the Hudsons used Continental "red seal" industrial engines, the same ones used on welders, forklifts, etc. But I could be wrong on this one.

Johnny,
          Many of the early multi cyl (V8s, V12s, and V16s) were not just for horsepower pecker matching. Dont forget that these were "Premium" cars, and they used the multiple cylinders to achive smoothness in the engine, so you would be less likely feel vibration when it was running.  The more cylinders, the closer the firing pulses, the closer the firing pulses, the less likely you are to feel them. Therefore less vibration in the car. Also keep in mind that back then they didnt have the technology to balence them anywhere close to what they have now.

Carl,
      I had never heard of Ford offering a supercharger back in the 30s, If you're right, you got me on that one.

In the way of interesting car engines, Chebby, when they were still an independant manufacturer, offered a couple of interesting engines back in the late teens and very early 20s. I have actually seen both. They had an in-line OHV air cooled 4 cyl, and an OHV V8 Both had open / exposed pushrods and rockers and were short lived but interesting design. You had to stop periodically and oil the valvetrain!!

Dave,
        You might have this backwards?? I pulled a 400SB out of a Kingswood Estate Wagon some years back. It had a 2BBL carb and was badged as a 400 on the car. A buddy of mine had an original 72 Monte Carlo with 400 badges on it as well. It was a 402BB with a Q-Jet.
Also 72 Camaros and Chevelles badged as 396s were actually 402s. In all of the years that I worked in the automotive trade, I dont remember ever seeing a 2bbl carb on a BB chevy maybe except for some of the 366s that were in big trucks, but I seem to remember them having Holley 4BBLs with governors.

Dad bought a brand new '76 Caprice wagon with a 400 small block with quadrajet. Those engines are externally balanced BTW. Found that out when replacing engine with a 350 targetmaster.

I had a buddy with a low miles all original Chevelle with a 2 barrel 402. Maybe some of them came with 4 barrel carbs but I've seen several with 2 barrels and remembered looking them up in Motor's manual to find only a 2 barrel version. If it's a 4 barrel it's probably a 396.

The 39 Ford had a McCullough blower option with the Holley 2bbl sitting on top. A friend in Maine has one in his customized 40 Coupe (He built in around 59) with a 59A in it, he has over 120K on that car until he got too old to drive it on 1500 mile runs any longer. Ive seen a few others but they are real scarce; sorta the SX-88 of the Ford world ::)

http://www.goodguysclassifieds.com/classified/2294/McCulloch_Ford_Flathead_Supercharger.html

I ran a Roadrunner Weiand setup for about 10 years on a 276" 8BA in a 26T coupe on A rails. That fleaweight combo with a beefed C4 was real ballsy.

The 402 was initially a simple way in 70 to save a run of miscast 396 blocks that got a .030 cut; 4.096 vs 4.126" Rather than retool they stuck with it until it was dropped after 72.

The 402 was in 70 and 71 models badged as a 396 and in 72 badged as a 402. Only 4bbls were on any BB at least thru 75. The 400 SB had both.

I've seen those before!! Are you sure they were OEM?? Or were they an aftermarket add on??
Or maybe some sort of dealer installed option? Ford was pretty conservative back then.
I would be curious to know how much boost they could make. It probably wasn't much. 

I received this recently in an email:

          47 FORD TRUCK SELLS FOR $800,000.00
          These pictures show a 1947 ford 1/2 ton pickup truck from Whitby, Ontario, Canada that was just sold to FORD MOTOR COMPANY of Detroit Michigan USA for the sum of $800,000.00 plus a Ford F350 dually truck.
          This truck, according to Ford records, is one of only 35 that was ordered and built in 1947 with factory installed McCulloch water cooled supercharger, special carburetor, special very low profile air cleaner for the McCulloch due to hood height problem. When installed intake has lower carb mounting height 'special supercharger intake', (see above air cleaner) Edmunds finned aluminum heads, Fenton cast iron headers, factory dual exhaust.
          OTHER OPTIONS ORIGINALLY INSTALLED ON THE TRUCK sliding rear window, installed outside sun visor, vacuum powered dash fan, factory compass, ashtray, smokers kit, locking steering column, dome light, inside sun visors, fog lights bumper mounted, some form of factory cruise control with knob & wire in dash.
          This truck was started being restored by Dave Hill, Dave and his father Len purchased this truck from the farmer who was the ORIGINAL OWNER, who ordered it equipped as it is, new in 1947.
          Dave has added his own custom touches like the early luggage rack metal box in pickup bed rear, blue dot twin taillights and other details.  Metal covered spare tire cover.
          What makes this truck so rare and valuable???
          As one of ONLY 35 documented originally built, it may be the only remaining original numbers matching example that can be authenticated and was by a team of Ford museum employees before the offer and the purchase was made.  Apparently there 'might be' two other survivors that are in pieces and cannot or have not been authenticated.

Certainly.  As well as the ability to drive around all day in third gear.  However there most certainly was a pecker matching contest, at least between manufacturers.  All the carriage makes needed a V-12 - Packard, Lincoln, Cadillac, Franklin, Auburn - then Cadillac and Marmon went and wrecked it all with V-16s  ;D

The Marmon V-16 has a sound like no other... factory dual smokestacks out the back and a real bark.  The Cad V-16 is smooth as silk, and the Packard V-12 is so silent you can't even tell it's running, except for a slight whisper of the fan cutting thru the air.

Ifn you really wanted a factory hotrod though, you laid down the cash for a Duesenberg SJ.



Yeah.  it sucked air up thru the bottom (with dust, rocks, straw, etc) and blew it out the front (against the wind).  Pisspoor design...  Franklin air cooled engines, OTOH, were superbly engineered.

<snip> "Yeah.  it sucked air up thru the bottom (with dust, rocks, straw, etc) and blew it out the front (against the wind).  Pisspoor design..."<snip>

Agreed, but there were others that were worse. At least there are running survivors of them. Prolly one of the most hateful, non surviving thing there ever was was the
Willys Knight sleeve valve engine. If there are any survivors, they are very few and very far between.

I am first hand familiar with the air-cooled Franklin engine. they were a good running motor!! I almost owned one. A friend of mine (now SK) had a yard full of old equipment. He owed me a favor and wanted to give me this thing that he referred to as a 1919 "Nash Quad". It was a rather large FWD flatbead truck with a wooden "C" cab and a huge wooden boom and winch on the back. It was supposedly a WW1 tank retriever?? But it had a 6-cyl air-cooled Franklin engine in it.

I had no place to put something that large so I had to pass on it. But I did haul it out of the woods and get it to run for him. God only knew how long it had been sitting there. (it was there for the 25+ years previosly that I knew him) Ya know, it took surprizingly little work to bring it to life!! And it ran amazingly good!!

Looking around the WWW confirms what you say. No 2 barrel 402. I know what I saw. Guess the guy had one of those adaptor plates on the thing. It was the late 70s when I saw this thing.

My brother had a 1940 ford pick up with a 327 & 4 speed. Oh I wish I bought it from him. I could have bought it for $1K in 1975.
One time we were going down RT91 at about 90 MPH Eyes were popping out of people as we went buy them.
We pulled off in Hartford to a lumber yard and a back wheel came off as we turned into the yard. Friggen unilug wheels almost killed both of us.
What a sight as the back wheel rolled by us.... then the back end dropped on the brake drum

A couple of the best sounding V-16s you will ever hear.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBKUQPjQ16I&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvTggX3ADlY 8)

Slab....Was that 6 cyl air cooled Franklin in the truck an inline or a flat 6???  I had a Stinson airplane with a flat 6 franklin...I think Franklin aircraft engines are still being made in Poland...

Steve,
         It was an automotive type engine, 6 cyl inline. Had a big squirrel cage fan on the front crank snout, cooling shrouds came up over the left (drivers) side of the engine and the carb and mnifolds were on the right side. IIRC it had an Eisman magneto and both hand crank and self starter. We cranked it by hand.  It kinda reminded you of a Wisconsin twin on steroids that grew 4 more cylinders.

Here is another one for you guys up in the far northeast:

Any of you know what a Lunnenburg marine engine is?? and/or the really neat history behind it??

Just thought I'd mention, since we're in car and engine mode, that today is Carroll Shelby's 88th birthday. Happy Birthday to the man who brought us the Shelby Cobra and the Shelby Mustang.

ldb
K5WLF

Here is a 2.5 flat four Subaru with 540hp as measured at all four wheels with me driving and tuning it.  About 600hp at the crank.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAVLEMbQYEo

ITs pretty common now to get 600 to 700 out of 4 cyls.

That BRM sounds so cool.  Kinda reminds me of my Friends modified Honda CBX.  Inline 6 cyl, open carbs and pipes.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCQdToPes6s&feature=related


C

Lovely sounding WRX,those cars have pretty hardy blocks and as long as you keep your A/F ratio okay you can make very respectable power out of them. I'd love to put a GT series turbo on my car(Saab 9000)but they're a bit too dear cost wise.

The CBX to me always reminded me of a Porsche 911 in the sound department.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrmEqCcgXII

Yeah.. Thats true. I had a 914-6 years ago.  It had the 2.7 flat 6 with a rack of delorto carbs.  Sounded great!  Hated the AZ heat.. That car ran fine in Wacko land, I mean California.

Here are some pics of my Big Ole Ball bearing GT turbocharger on my Subaru.

That is an exceptionally clean setup you have there. How are your intake temperatures with the air cleaner where it is? It's always a tough balance between running a cold air setup and risking water intake and running the intake in the engine compartment and dealing with heat. My Saab's stock setup takes its air from high up in the fender well and works well though I do want to analyze the system and see if there are any bottlenecks I can eliminate while still maintaining good water isolation.

Normaly, I dont run any intake or filter. Once I get over 28 psi and up into the 30 to 33 psi level, That intake starts to restrict flow.

  Its Just open turbo at the track.  The intake temps are fine. That big turbo is pretty effecient. I have a HUGE 3.5 inch thick front mount intercooler rated at 900 hp.  So any rise at the intake in turbo is just dumped into the intercooler. Not to mention that is a 4.5 inch intake so its nearly impossible to route that down to cool air. 

On a smaller turbo or setup like yours, It makes a big difference and cold air intake is suggested.  Figure 1% in power for every 10 degrees. However, The ecu typicaly pulls power back as intake temps rise.

To give you an idea, In the summer here its common to see 160F intake temps with a short ram intake like mine. But with a cold air you might get that down to 120.

C

I run a T3/T4 trim 60 at around 18psi and the stock setup actually is a cold air setup. I just need to go through and replace some of the piping with smooth tubing and investigate the construction of the air box to see how efficient it is. So far I haven't run into any walls and my final goal is around 320-350hp because after that the transmission starts to complain more and more. Saab transmissions are sturdy until you start abusing them and then they break quickly but if you roll onto the power smoothly and don't dump the clutch at 5k for a launch they'll last for a long time.

If you want some help, I would be happy to help. I have been designing, tuning and testing turbo systems like this for many many years.  Just email me sometime.

C

why has this degraded to baby fart cars

Becuz it's all they know  ;D  ;D

We were building fast cars before they were born ;)  ;)

Imagine going through life never bringing a big block to life
Why that is like no love
You poor things. I suggest building a big rig

We have Talked quite a bit about big gas muscle car engines...touched on aircraft engines, not much on marine engines, or tractor power...How about Volkswagen air cooled flat 4's...or Hit and miss types , Rumley, hercules,Hagen,Rustin Hornsby, and there is always the Mery Explosive- a double acting six cycle wonder..We are just getting warmed up.

My lawn mower has a killer B&S engine.........


Horsepower is horsepower, whether it comes from a 4-banger or a V8.  It's like saying Class E is no good 'cuz we didn't do it that way back in the day.'

I guess we should cover locomotives and ships, if we want to talk about real horsepower.  ;D

a locomotive motor is one big mofo. But nothing compared to that ship motor Frank sent pictures of a while back. yes HP is HP but baby fart just rubs some of us the wrong way.

Maybe because we watched them go by while we were sitting at the gas pump so many times.

Still I don't want anything to do with light cars. Not worth the risk on the roads.

Gimmie a big car with crumple zones. 20 MPG is plenty for me.

Now you're talkin!!
I'm ready!! I've had my hands in just about everything in betwen!! I've worked with just about everything from a top alcohol funny car to lawnmower engines. (except baby fart cars)   Bring it on ;D ;D

Rumley, did I hear someone mention Rumley  ;)  ;) Ah yes, there is something about an
Oil Pull that's almost as good as the smell of gun powder in the morning.....................

You needn't make such a comment,it isn't mature nor does it contribute to the discussion at hand.

My family also owns a 1965 Chevrolet Impala that we enjoy working on,driving and bringing to shows. I go to quite a few muscle car shows and really love seeing people preserving our American performance car heritage. I also enjoy European and Japanese cars both new and old. I have just as much respect for a Max Wedge Dart as I do a well prepared WRX such as KE7TRP's.

Each manufacturer has different strengths and it is important that we cherish them for their strengths and at the same time respecting others who may have different tastes than yourself.

Hi Steve,

Or Big Allis.

This 1,650,000 HP steam powered turbine-generator was the biggest and most powerful machine in the world when it was first deployed in the mid-1960's. It was later overtaken by the Saturn V rocket at 7.5 million pounds of thrust, although I can't equate this to horsepower. She was built by the Allis-Chalmers Company of Milwaukee.

Here's a picture of Big Allis, which is still cranking out the kilowatts to this day, for Con Edison in New York City:

http://www.pbase.com/lexyky/image/128786761

73,

Bruce

Some of the newer "baby fart" "tuner" cars are pretty neat. It is downright amazing the power they make, and how fast some of them are. But it just aint the same.
The sound of a BIG CID motor with high compression, a big roller cam and open big tube headers is something to behold. Not to mention the feel of letting the clutch fly and leaving the gate with the front wheels in the air. If you have never experienced it, you just will never understand how it feels.

Or as the expression that Harley-Davidson was so famous for says it all:
"If I have to explain, you wouldnt understand"

And there is something to be said for odd and unusual engines as well. It really gives you an appreciation for how far things have gone. The more odd and unusual they are, the more fascinating they are. It really makes you appreciate the engineering that went into them.

 As far as the little "tuner" cars go, these days they are not really much if anything out of the ordinary except for the ones that are really fast. And those things if nothing else are obnoxious sounding with loud mufflers.

As far as everyone's choices go, what is interesting to one is boring to another.
When myself and one very close friend got out of drag racing years ago, I got into collecting antique engines and he got into flying pidgeons, we both thought each others new hobby was dumb!!

Anything under 8 cylinders should be banned from the track and the Interstates ;D and those should all have sidepipes.

OTOH my #2 sons 2010 Beemer 351D dual turbo oil burner sure cranks up impressive numbers which can really be tweaked up. He is taking it to the plant in Germany in the spring to have it tweaked as well as take the executive protection level driving course.  He is a USAF Major stationed at Ramstein AFB and is involved in the diplomatic and allied military areas.

Carl

I think big cube engines are a lot of fun. It's always a lot of fun to have a muscle car drive by that has such a cam in it that the overlap at idle causes the ground to shake. I've experienced it and I really do appreciate but I also appreciate the song of a 2JZ in a Toyota Supra as that is one of the finest inline 6's ever built.

I'm not really much a fan of Harleys at all. I have a few vintage Honda's and really enjoy vintage Japanese motorcycles and the engineering that went into them. I will amend my first statement and say that I do enjoy pre 1965 Harleys because the design just agrees with me more. Seeing an old WLA Harley at a vintage motorcycle show brings a big smile to my face.

There are a lot of folk who are into the "tuner" scene who aren't exactly the brightest bulbs in the box. You get these sort of people with every niche of automobile as there is always a select group that spoils the fun for everyone else. Since they're the ones wave their arms around and act out they are picked out by the general public and then the entire group is labeled according to what the general public sees those select few immature folk doing. The problem does stem from the fact that many of the people who are into the Japanese car scene are younger and therefore there is a greater chance that their maturity level is quite low. On the other hand I've also seen some incredibly immature 40 and 50 year olds but this is just human nature for you.

In the end if it has wheels and an engine there is a good chance I'll be quite interested in it.

Everybody has their own favorite. For me, the sound of a radial aircraft engine is the best there is. Of course, almost any good running engine sounds good. The more cubes the better. I don't much care for the sound of what y'all are referring to as the "baby fart" cars, but I sure do admire the power development the guys are getting from them.

Years ago, when I was living in Delta CO, they had an opening at the local powerhouse. I really wanted the job, because the plant had two of the big Fairbanks-Morse diesels that were about 15 feet high and had catwalks so you could adjust the valves, etc. I really wanted to work with those big engines. Since I had some experience as a diesel mech and had also worked a dozen years as an electrician, they told me I was over-qualified to work at a diesel-powered electrical generating plant.  ??? ??? When I pointed out that the plant powered the local PD, county SO, fire stations, schools, hospital and old folks homes and said I'd be damned if I could understand how one could be over-qualified to supply power to those kind of places, they told me they didn't like my attitude. Some days you just can't win.

I've always found this engine intriguing:
http://people.bath.ac.uk/ccsshb/12cyl/index.html.o (http://people.bath.ac.uk/ccsshb/12cyl/index.html.o)

(No, the ".o" at the end ain't a typo. It won't work without it)

ldb

My favorite is a nuc sub. It's quiet, has big power and hardly ever needs refueling.

I'd like to see you roll up to the 7/11 in one of those :D

I just found out one of my first grade pals was a sonar operator on a nuker.
He said they had a good cook who was an Itialian buddy so they ate very well.

Baby fart cars are like feeding coke to a race horse....

That implies said cars must be exceptionally quick!

I bet a nuke sub is pretty quick even though it is pushing a lot of water out of the way as it moves. I think even a baby fart can't match that MPG.
I heard an SR71 fly once. Kind of like comparing the family car to a AA/FD
Right up there with a B17 at idle
 

<snip> " I've always found this engine intriguing:
http://people.bath.ac.uk/ccsshb/12cyl/index.html.o  " <snip>

that is definately a kool engine!! that is the engine that I sent to Frank (GFZ) about a year ago. Just a different url with a few more pictures. The Sultzer boys are known the world over for making really BIG engines!! (note the top speed 102RPM!!)


Now, vintage motorcycles, thats another subject dear to my heart  ;D  ;D

Which era and brands of motorcycles?

You might be able to do it..... once.

I saw the SR-71 fly at the old Norton AFB in CA in the late '70s. The announcer said that due to noise regulations at Norton they'd only be able to use 9 of the 15 stages of afterburner on the J58 engines. Said he hoped the plane would be fast enough for us. It was.

As the Blackbird rolled down the runway on the takeoff roll, there were nine diamond-shaped shockwaves in the exhaust stream.
Years later, I had the privilege of flying ultralights one day with Bob Strong, a retired SR-71 pilot. Bob confirmed what I'd suspected -- there's one diamond shockwave formed in the exhaust for each stage of AB that's engaged.

Bob also said that the scariest part of piloting the Blackbird was being "on the boom" for mid-air refueling. The tanker had it's throttles firewalled and the SR-71 was barely hanging in the air at that airspeed. It had a ridiculously high angle of attack and there was virtually no rudder authority. Directional control was maintained by jockeying the engines into and out of the first stage of afterburner as needed. There was a pretty big jump in thrust between in and out of AB, so things were pretty tense while you  were on the boom. "Hell of a way to steer", was Bob's analysis. He also said that the Blackbird was a sweet plane to fly with no surprises and no bad habits.

I love the old radial engines and the planes of WWII. There are few jets that I like, but the SR-71 is at the top of that short list. Getting to see her fly was one of the major thrills of my life. Flying with Bob was pretty damn special too.

ldb

Nothing like afterburners. The first time I heard them relatively close was at Hahn AFB in Germany in the early 80's. A pair of F-16s were doing touch-and-goes. Man what a sound when they would hit the burner just as they touched! I think my ears are still ringing.

The SR-71 and B-2 bomber were planes that just were just so far ahead of their time that it made me think that they might have been projects tested at Area 51 that actually received the green light for production.

Anything Harley (PRE AMF) Although I still own a modern one.

Must be NON crotch rocket (except older factory works bikes)

60s on back Triumphs, BSAs, Nortons and anything british. (had a few)

Any older European bikes  (had a few)

Mid 60s on back Hondas and some of the more obscure jap stuff.  (had many)

Anything really old and odd looking with unusual engines.

also older flat trackers and speedway bikes. (used to race flat track when I was young)

Must be a "traditional" styled bike with the engine as the focal point of the styling
(That is why I have gravitated towards Harleys)

Iz that enuff to keep you goin??

Just FWIW If it runs off of an engine, I have most likely had my hands in it. I have had a fascination with engines since I was a young child, and somewhere in my life I have probably operated it, or repaired one for someone else. I was known years ago for having the ability to make unusable engines run again. It's too much to type, but I have some really kool experiences and stories to tell.

This is fodder for a good long running on-air QSO   ;)  ;)

When I was in high school, 1964, I had a 125 Jawa....an unusual bike then....It was a road bike with a stamped steel frame,full fenders with flares,big full coverage chain guard and a 125 2 stroke engine...Those were the days when honda had a full line of 4 stroke bikes like the from the nifty, thrifty honda fifty..to the (my favorite at the time 305 scrambler)  I used to ride around with a bunch of farm kids...and we visualized ourselves as a motorcycle gang....It was kind of tough being a Rebel without a cause because most of us had to be home before dark to get our chores done...Our gang included a 160 scrambler,a couple honda 90's a 125 yamaha street bike,my 125 Jawa, and a black 305 dream owned by a town kid named Paul....We let Paul hang with us because he had the biggest bike and it gave the gang more presence...Through the years I've owned a few little hondas...The S-90 was my favorite, a 250 scrambler that I bought wrecked and fixed up,a 350 honda that was always hard to start, a couple triumphs...a worn out 500, and the best bike I ever owned, a 650 triumph Bonneville..There have been a couple flathead Harleys, one was a war surplus 45 that had a hole in the piston...My brother and I cut the skirts off a piston from a 6 cyl chev stovebolt engine and used that to get it running...The cable for the distributor advance was missing so we would just adjust it by hand to get it smoothed out.(that was probably the reason the piston got holed in the first place running it with the spark set on full detonation) I have a couple XS 650s hiding in the shop now waiting for me to restore one and make a hardtail street bobber out of the other.. Never owned a crotch rocket, don't want to....Last winter the wife and I were lucky enough to be able to ride around Florida on my son-in-laws new 1300 V twin Yammie bagger for a month..A nice bike, but not loud enough and the rev limiter sucks....The Harleys always won at the stoplight contests....Got to ride an Indian Chief this Fall....Very cool...an original 40's bike with foot clutch and jockey shifter...Hard to think about bikes right now with the temp at 10 deg and a foot of snow on the ground...Never owned a sno-go

I got the disease from my Dad. He tested Jet motors at P&W. He would tells us when he was going to fire up a big one. We could hear him from the back yard 10 miles away. He always came home with cool stories. He blew up two that I know about. A B52 motor JT3 and a JT8. He said the turbing dropped out of the JT8 and hit the ground spinning. He worked outside for about 10 years away from the main building where they could really have fun.
He also spent WW2 and Korea well under deck.

We haven,t touched on outboards......

Had 1957 250CC Jawa!! 250cc long stroke single 2-stroker. Had dual pipes and dual plugs. Was a pretty interesting bike, a lot of torque for a 2-stroke. That one had pressed steel body panels over a tube frame. The body panels got tossed and it became a dirt bike. that model later evolved into the 250 "Californian" I still have the parts manual!! The last of the left over parts just got tossed 2 months ago while cleaning out my mom's basement!!

Had a 63 T-120 (wish I still had it) After busting a piston racing a Sportster one night, it got an 800cc Routt kit. For it's time it was Hell on wheels!!

Also had an S-90, 2 150s, a 160 with a big bore kit, 2 305s and a 1967 CB-450.

Not to mention  125 Benelli,  125 Gilera, 250 Ducati (which became a flat tracker), and more that I cant remember.

also have a 250 Puch awaiting restoration. (it runs but looks fugly)

I think it would be fun to build a retro flat tracker out of an XS-650, If I find a deal on one, I may still do it. (I like the old days when you weren't allowed to have brakes!!)

Between what I have owned myself, and what I have worked on for others, I've pretty well got it covered...........................
 

Oh, yea, While I'm in the process of cleaning out my mom's house there is still one mystery area I havent touched. It is the enclosed area under the back porch.

The door has been closed and locked for very close to 30 years. It was mostly my stuff under there. And I flat out dont remember what is in there. I do knowthere is some bike stuff and engine stuff in there, but that is all that I remember. The key has been lost for at least 25 years, I'll save that for warmer WX..................

When I was living in LA my Dad had a flood in the basement. Water came in through a crack in my old shack floor. I had been out of the house for 5 years but still had some treasures stashed in his basement. He found my Arma Steel 389 crank under the oil tank and tossed it. He later told me he thought I was over the building motor phase of life. I was really bummed. Best poncho crank made.

I think I remember seeing a Jawa in a motorcycle spares/scrap yard last year. They're really neat looking bikes and I kept bothering my friend to buy it and restore it. I have a 1972 Honda CB350 and a 1965 Honda C100 cub. The C100 was my fathers and he acquired it when he was back in college and one of his fraternity brothers left it at the house and never came back to claim it. I was surprised that my father has hung onto it all of these years. It's a great bike as it always starts and if it doesn't there is usually a very simple reason why it won't(no fuel,ignition not on,etc).

The 350 had a worn cylinder which caused it to burn a fair bit of oil though it still ran fine. My friend and I spent from 7pm to 7am rebuilding the engine and were a bit shocked that it ran as well as it did as the chain tensioner gear was so worn that it was a small miracle that the chain didn't skip a tooth. I still need to figure out some electrical problems with it,I'm very tempted to just convert it to electronic ignition but the kit for it costs more than I paid for the bike.

Watching F-14's launching fom the USS Carl Vinson in 84 gave me a woody; I was aboard for 2 weeks. Or maybe it was all the porn flicks in the Chiefs quarters ::)

Never cared for jet dragsters but watching Garlits or any of his competitors in a fuel hemi also made the hormones boil.

Best sound at idle: A full race cammed (ancient terminology) flathead V-8; with those siamese exhaust ports it is a totally unique sound. Even a milder grind can sound good.

I love F14s. I saw one do a hammerhead stall and drive out verticially at the last P&W air show. They packed a lot of fire power.
I remember a story that the F111/F14 motor oil sumps ran dry if it flew upside down. My Dad told me they tested the fix over East Hartford one day while all the big shots watched their watches.

all this talk of engines and other stuff like that cinvinced me to make a post(and hope that it doesn't turn out too long). it made me woder why there was not too much talk about Carroll Shelby though, that's one person i like to hear about, because thats who i was named after. and jet engines, i was at Andrews on armed forces day back in 2008 when they have the air show there, some of that stuff was pretty impressive, i liked the F-104 starfighters and the engines in them, can remember the model but the announcer said they were built before they had smokeless jet engines. even if you couldnt se them you could tell where they were by following the smoke trail. i remember seeing an old P-51 there too. found this video of a Merlin V12 out of a Mustang and now in a 55 chevy on youtube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIj2GVfua84 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIj2GVfua84)

something else i always thought sounded nice were truck engines, living by the turnpike you hear a lot of them. i can always pick out an older detroit from the rest of them. i think probably the best souding diesels.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfyIeO6zQBM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfyIeO6zQBM)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7368eCCwr6A (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7368eCCwr6A)

and talking about older car engines, i remember hearing a kid at my school talking about these earlier this year, the gmc 702 v12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puJaDfB4UFM&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puJaDfB4UFM&feature=related)

and finally tractors, something ive always liked, especially if they are one of these 4 makes John Deere, Oliver, Allis-Chalmers, or Minneapolis-Moline. i think the old olivers with the detroit diesels in them are the best that company made.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNKoCfOyASU&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNKoCfOyASU&feature=related)
nothing can beat the sound of a two cylinder john deere especialy the model D. they started out in 1923 with a 465 ci engine and in 1927 increased it  to 501 ci by making the bore .25 inches bigger , to 6.75 by 7.00.

heres a video of a Dhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQLpTI_HZ_U&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQLpTI_HZ_U&feature=related)
and last, in the earlier parts of this thread someone mentioned the Funk Brothers V8 conversions for ford tractors, especially the 8N i was at the Nittany antique machinery association's show in centre hall this fall when they had ford as the feature tractor there were probably 1 or 2 dozen of those V8 powered fords there various conversion kits and some that the owners build themselves. but the best one was a lincoln v12 powered one, which is in this video, i got to seee this tractor in person, but didnt hear it run, so was amazed when i found this and heard it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xOb_s1lQ78 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xOb_s1lQ78)

shelby

Wasn't Shelby told to stop racing cars by his doc due to a bad heart almost 50 years ago?

yes he did, he had heart problems when he was a child
he was also a flight instructor and test pilot in the army air corps during world war two

Shelby,
          Thanks for all of the U-tube links!! I watched them all and a good many of the suggestions that they also throw at you as well. Being the Engine lover that I am, I spent close to 3 hours on U-Tube!!  :o  :o  ;D

At the opposite end of the spectrum.  I picked up this little British Seagull last winter as part of a package deal with a pair of older 15hp OMC outboards. I had to replace a cracked fuel line banjo fitting and clean the carburetor of old residue then it fired right up. The carburetor is an interesting bit of engineering. The throttle control, rather than the typical butterfly valve, has a spring loaded piston to regulate fuel flow. Doing speed trials with the 9' RIB I was hitting top speeds of 2 knots, 3 with a decent tail wind.  Having a Seagull hanging off the rail was a great conversation starter. I usually heard heard: "Wow an old Seagull. I used to have one of those." Or: "A Seagull, those things really suck."  :)

Well, lets see.........................................

I was going to go off on that tangent, but.................................. ;D  ;D

I've owned 3 Evinrude Zephyrs over the years (4.9HP - 4 cylinder)
one rather large Johnson opposed twin (I dont remember the model)
5 or 6 little eggbeaters that I just dont remember makes and models.
One that had an all brass cylinder barrel, and one that actually had the engine down at the bottom (under water) and breathed through the stalk!!
(You sometimes stumble on them down here as part of antique engine deals)

I sold all of that stuff about 15 years ago, but I may still have a few pieces lurking under my moms porch. Getting in there is gonna be like Christmas all over again.

Hmmmmm..............................................
I just found videos of this truck on youtube??   "Pissed off Pete"  ???  ???

that thing has a 12V-71 in it, not sure if if also has twin turbos like some of them do, that would make it a 12V-71TT. I was just thinking this morning about the engines in the two Minneapolis-Moline Z tractors we have. It's a 4 cylinder engine, with two blocks. The head is mounted on the side of the engine, and if you take it off and look across you are looking straight into the valves, and on the side of the blocks on that side are covers that come off to allow acess to the valves. The crankcase is really deep in these, because it also forms most of the frame, which only consists of the front end which is bolted to the front of the crankcase, then the transmission and rear end bolted to the back. The crankcase has removeable covers on one side to allow access to the crankshaft. If you needed to tear it apart you had to undo the rods from the crank, then anbolt the blocks and lift them off with the pistons still in there, then the crank pulled out through the front. If one of them would have got locked up, it'd be almost impossible to get it unstuck since nothing comes off the top of the block so that you can beat the pistons out. http://www.antiquefarming.com/minneapolis-moline.html (http://www.antiquefarming.com/minneapolis-moline.html)
It says here that the heads can be altered to change the compression  for burning other types of fuel in it.

I got this in an email several days ago. http://www.fark.com/cgi/vidplayer.pl?IDLink=5734912

If you enjoy the sound of an engine pretty much up against the limiter, go here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=4TshFWSsrn8&vq=medium#t=35

enjoy

mike