The AM Forum

Over the river and through the woods to grand pa's house we go the transmission craps out.
nothing above second gear slipping like a mo fo. so all this weirdness appears to be the transmission crapping out.
They only used the 4L60E in the 5.3L 1/2 ton pickups which is a modern TH350.
Well at least it didn't die when I was moving the 500 pound wood planer south at Thanksgiving

will a TH400 fit? (or its modern computer ready equivalent)...

Yup and it is called the 4L80 but not sure if it is an easy swap with interface electronics. A rebuilt 4L80 is about $500 more. If the Rebuild shop can do a swap for $500 more I'll go for it. I pass if it takes different electronics.
I'm almost done hauling heavy materials so may just have it rebuilt. I'll check my options in the morning when I call the rebuild shop. The onlly thing left to move is 1000 board feet of rough cut oak I plan to turn into trim.

Got to love it  >:(  Likely not on Electronic side of things..  ON the GM you get a 2nd gear manual shift and slid into high gear to get you home.. Sounds like the 3rd speed band and high gear clutch pack (or whatever accounts for the OD clutch on the 4 speeds)   In any event the the next hassle is finding a GOOD transmission shop.  There are plenty that tear down and replace only what is needed. Find the Rock solid local shop or use the dealer and get a true re-manufactured one.. Or at least one with the extended warranty.  Hard lesson learned on my end with a chevy van a few years back.. 3 transmissions later I finely got a good one and the owner after me is doing fine with it some 50,000 miles later - Steve

YUP I'll second Steve.
A friend of mine who plows snow was leery on spending $2000 to rebuild his auto tranny 1998 Chevy ??? one of those huge SUV's (150,000 mi), but they said they would stand behind their work. This is total break down and ALL worn parts and bearings, seals replaced
They asked him to return in 2 months, or maybe 2000 miles, after the rebuild and said that the tranny is good to go. I guess draining the fluid and inspecting for particles or analyzing the fluid there........dunno.

Why do they call the oil in an automatic transmission fluid? And GEAR oil in a rear end. Would someone at Walmart put 10W30 to refill a rear end? OK I guess we don't mess with REAR ends anymore,,,,,,,,showing my age HA!
FRED

This guy I want to use has been in business since '64 and sold the shop to a couple guys who worked for him. They do first rate work. They are also friends with my brother. They did a trans for my Father a while ago. Only problem is the 15 miles to get it there. I was working in a garage in the late '60s and knew the owner.
I found on the WWW about $1300 for the '60 and $1750 for the '80. Some crappy guarantees. One place wanted almost double price for 3 years guarantee. The thing is once you dip it in the tank and yank it apart doing a good job only takes a little time if you have the right tools. I watched a friend build one in about 20 minutes while we talked. Rebuild kit is only about $200. I bet the pump is crapped out which is a hunk of plastic impeller.

Having nothing  more than second gear could mean one of those problematic computer controlled valves in the valve body has failed.  Take it to a shop that can pull the error codes which will indicate just this.  Been there and done that about 5 years ago with the 94 Caprice.  It should be around $3-400 to diagnose, buy and replace the valve at the GM Stealership.

I wouldn't buy a lug nut from the local dealers. That is why I bought my Daughter's car in Ma. 20 miles away.
I can get it to shift into third but downshifts as soon as I give it any gas. It has been doing weird downshifts for a few weeks now. I'm sure the shop will check it out but sure seems like a pump problem.

I think you are running in what's call "limp mode" which was designed to get you home during a valve failure problem.  When the pump goes out it doesn't move because there isn't any pressure.  All of the error code info is stored in the computer.  The shop should have an error code reader to review the codes.  If the shop doesn't pull the codes without you suggesting then I would suggest finding another shop that does. 

TNX, The check engine light did come on after running in second gear for 10 miles.
That was the longest drive that motor ever made above 2000 RPM. I'll make sure it gets downloaded. I've worked it pretty hard but never abused it. GM has made a number of upgrades to the box since 2001. I remember the TH350 got mushy in my old Firebird at 150K.....That haul up Mt. Wilson playing road racer hurt it a bit.
My Dad had one go about 120K.

Frank said:
Aint that the truth! I worked for my cousin at his shop. I tore down a powerglide. Very neat and easy to tear down and build up. It took longer to drop it than to rebuild it. Frank, if that were an older lash-up I would say there is a vacuum leak. Maybe drag you behind underneath and check all the connections. It might save you a few bux.

I was under it this morning. No more vacuum modulator all electronic control.
A friend just turned me on to a good local shop so have two places to contact in the morning. looks like swapping to a 4L80E trans is a bit of big deal so might have to settle for the smaller box. I might be able to upgrade to a 4L65 though.
Gee I have a TH400 in the basement from my old 1974 Firebird that still worked fine when I pulled it at 155K. Maybe I can work a trade.

Well as fate would have it the guy who is 15 miles away thinks it could just be electrical sensor or control issue. $1900 for a rebuild. Local good guy said $2K and going up to a shop in Ma. is 1900 to 2700 if not electrical.

soundz like they got you bent over a barrel!! :o  :o

Dont ya just love General Motors............................

Slab said:
I always thought 'GM' stood for 'General Misery!' until I found out that FIAT stands for "Fix It Again, Tony!!!"  :D

Found On Road Dead

RAM!  (speaks for itself)

DODGE ! ( also speaks for itself)

Fix Or Repair Daily

Don't forget Ford didn't take any federal bailout money. That gets them my business. ;)

In 10 years/125K miles. 1 front bearing, brake job, tires and a battery. I would consider that good quality. It has hauled a lot of weight.
I also like the Mercury my Dad left me. That is a real nice car.

My Boss owns a mopar and hates it. Every time he turns around something craps out.

Feeble Imitation At Transportation  :P

' Don't forget Ford didn't take any federal bailout money. That gets them my business. ;) "

They didn't need it   .....   got all mine.... ..

klc

I have a 4L80e out in the garage on a pallet. Grabbed one out of a diesel cube van. The diesel ones have a stand alone controller that doesn't use the engine ECM. Chevy bell. I was going to put it in the 1980 Fleetwood behind a 500 C.I. Might never get to it at this rate.
Last year I dropped 2 grand on a transmission for the almost x YYL's car right around this time of the year. She totaled the car 2 weeks later. I bought the wreck back from Mr. Allstate.

JEEP (Just Empty Every Pocket)

Dave that is the one transmission to fit in anything. I read it is a very good box.

Yup. I have a nice collection of parts to put together. Even have a mid 70s port injected intake manifold for the Caddy 500.

I have a posi with 256 gears too.

Maybe I'll list all the stuff with the Cadillac Club of Australia. Worked last time.

Waiting for someone to do PONTIAC!

4L80 is a close ratio box unlike the 4L60 with 3:1 first gear. tuff getting it moving with 256 but will go very fast.

Found a good local guy in business for himself
Blown Third and Fourth gear clutches
stinky oil
He does some upgreades to make it better.

Frank said:

Follow your nose, it always knows! I was thinking along the line of it constant down-shifting. It makes sense now. You would lose power when you would up-shift and the electronics would detect it. What's it going to cost and are you going to drop it? Make sure they drain the torque converter real good. You don't need stuff floating around the oil that would ruin the new clutch packs.

If it is a quality shop ,they will either have an exchange converter or they will have their own converter washing machine. You do not want to reuse the old converter by just draining it.

Good luck

mike

Frank said:
Quote
Found a good local guy in business for himself
Blown Third and Fourth gear clutches stinky oil


"Follow your nose, it always knows! I was thinking along the line of it constant down-shifting. It makes sense now. You would lose power when you would up-shift and the electronics would detect it. What's it going to cost and are you going to drop it? Make sure they drain the torque converter real good. You don't need stuff floating around the oil that would ruin the new clutch packs"

The going rate from a number of shops is about $2000. This guy is going to replace more parts than come in the rebuild kit. He told me he could get me a Jasper rebuilt if I really wanted one but he uses the same brand parts in his rebuilds.
I told him that I don't need the truck until next week. Take your time and make it right. My only request is that it goes another 100,000 miles. He is a 1 man show with 3 bays. He showed me around his shop and he has a special booth to clean them out.
Seemed like a real good guy just trying to make a living.

He had me sold when he talked about the PWM controller for the converter lock up mode and the fix he puts in to make it last

People On Narcotics Think It's A Chevy

Poor Old Nutcase Thinks It's A Cadillac

ldb
K5WLF

Do what with Pontiac?

Perverse, Obtuse Nutball, Tiptoeing in Insolence and Alcoholic Callousness


Ask the man that owns one.
 


klc

I had a 96 Caprice ex Maine State Police rig with the 9C1 package which meant everything was oversized. 

Used it a few years as a tow vehicle to the drags and finally cooked the 4L60E. Rebuild quotes was something like $2200 installed so I started nosing around on various Chebby forums and wound up using a beefed 700R4 from a local seller with a resistor pack mounted onto to the harness to fake out the computer. Worked the balls.

Now dont ask me the values as I sold that 5-6 years ago but the info is out there.

Yea, I read all the forums. I need it fixed this week so I don't have to take the Mercury on the salt when I go back to work. I have no desire to be under it this time of the year. I would love to drop a 4l80E in it.
The Trans guy had a 4L60 on a pallet. It is not a small box.

Yea, but................................

A manual transmixer eliminates those nasty "mystery" failures.
Be a man, drive something with a clutch! ! !  ;D  ;D

Frank said:
That's why asked if you were going to drop it. When I worked at the cousin's shop, that's what we did. I hated the winter months. We would push a car in the night before so that all the snow would drop off prior to removal. Of course it usually left the road grit behind.

Yup Mikey,
Spent my time under the lift with that salty sand falling in my eyes. The only slush on my truck was from the ride to the shop. I parked it before it snowed. Well today I need to fire up the printing press and scrape up some cash to pay this guy.

I've always driven a stick and gone beyond 200K without trouble.  Got my first 4WD w/ slushbox.  Can't say that I like an auto.  It's a slug but it makes the wife happy.  Just waitin' for it's first crapout then we're going back to a manual.

I agree....however, except for some trucks and SUVs, it is getting harder and harder to find standard transmissions any longer. I can't think of the last time we had a standard in the workshop. Almost everything is going automatic, and computer controlled, all in the same of fuel economy and standardization.

Of course some of the automatics can be driven like a standard and sifted manually, thinking of Porsche Tiptronic and Volvo Geartronic, but its not the same...

Stick Shift?.. I shift my car with my feet! Interesting thing about the Model T Transmission, the final drive clutch pack is interchangeable with a GM T350 (with a slight modification) The 3 bands are Low Gear, Brake and Reverse..   Cotton webbing soaked in motor oil!   Wood and Kevlar are also used..  It basically is an automatic without the fluid drive and your feet are the servos..   - Steve

PS Note the Makings of a Spark Gap Transmitter attached to the flywheel!

Hi Steve,

That's cool that those cars can still be driven today, nearly 100 years later!
Not sure I'll be about to say that about any of the 2011 models.  ;)
Heck, I see the day coming when the government will outlaw ownership of our newer cars once they reach a certain age, safety and emission reasons will be given...

Is that a Model T trans?
Can it be serviced in the car?
Looks like the case splits, for adjustment, service or ?

Frank, I can spank second as well as the next guy but the only standard turcks I could find in 2001 were six bangers. I needed something that would haul weight. The truck earned its rebuild. Many a weekend we had the family and a bed full of materials going 60 miles to GFZ So.
My brother has a '98 Dakota with 200K and the factory clutch.
That was before mopar turned it into a HOS a couple years later.

That is indeed a Model T Transmission.  The car is the 1926 Touring that my then 17 year old son and I drove to Maine back in 2006 on a "Old Time" camping trip.  Back road all the way, including a ride down Salem Street in the North end of Boston at 10 AM on a weekday!

The Motor and transmission share a pan, there is an access cover that you can make band adjustments though (and on the 26 & 27 models replace the bands) As the picture shows, the top case can be removed to further facilitate band replacement. Anything more then bands, you  take 1/2 an hour or so and pull the motor! You do not even need a lift. It will slide out on the frame, hit a balance point and you simply "nose" it down on a block of wood, then pivot it around.. Done! Reverse the process to put it back in.. Not unlike our old VW days...

I have a friend with a 1911 T He will be out on New Years day driving his 100 year old car.  

Here is Picture of my 1925 Hack (The former Miss RI is standing off to the side) - Steve

I think it was Oldsmobile came out with the M-4 transmission in its 88. Part manual, part automatic. Sort of like a 2~3 on the tree. If memory serves me right, I think when you shifted from 2~3, you just pushed the clutch in. The 4th gear was like an overdrive. Pretty neat technology for about 1953(?)

IIRC, a 1911-t doensnt have a "self starter", itz crank only!! Better hope it isnt too cold out there and the flywheel magnetz are good and hot!! (Unless you got a cheater battery under the seat)

Ts are neat, except for the slow top speed of 25mph. A (now SK) friend of mine had a set of all of the patterns to make the wood pieces for a "Depot Hack". they are pretty kool, but a little too cool for the winter months. I have repaired a bunch of those and model A engines. My late buddy and I used to have an engine test stand for both so we could fire them up in the garage without the rest of the car.

One other thing to appreciate about a T is how low they would idle when everything was right. They would just barely tick over!!

Stickshift is great in a car, not so hot for a truck towing or hauling.

Original clutches:

260,000 out of a Camry 5-speed, still fine when sold.

240,000 out of a Corolla 5-speed, still fine when sold

180,000 out of an Accord 5-speed, still fine when sold

Part of the secret to long clutch life is knowing how to shift.
I bet they don't teach technique anymore.
Pam's got a calibrated foot and I added her knowing how to double clutch a downshift and save the synchromesh facings.

Hi hi FB

Miss the Volvo overdrives I had.  4-speed stick with electric overdrive. Push a lever on the steering column, and voila !   Feels like 5th gear.

1972 1800ES
1973 1800ES

I got well over 200K on the original clutches in my Chevy pickup and Chrysler LeBaron.  The clutch springs in the Chevy broke about 225K and my sister in law, who was driving it, pressed down so hard on the clutch that it broke the linkage.  I started it in gear and drove it home with no clutch; in fact with that truck I rarely used the clutch except to start out.  The clutch was still good on the LeBaron at about 250K or so when my wife drove it over a speed bump and the subframe broke, due to rust.

That LeBaron would get a good 40 MPG on a trip, which makes one wonder how those POS Smart Cars only get 40.

Mikey, I think you're thinking of the Chrysler FluidDrive.  It had a column shift with high range and low range.  Each range had two gears that would shift when you lifted the gas.  Although it had a torque converter you needed to use the clutch (which it also had) to shift between high and low range, or into reverse.  At a stoplight though you just held the brake, no clutch required.  Normal driving was just throw it in high range and drive it like an automatic (no shifting required) except for it to shift you had to let off the gas.

As my dad found out with my grandpa's '52 Chrysler Saratoga with the 331 Hemi, you could shift it as a 4-speed with a bit of trickery.  You put it in low range, accellerated, then let off the footfeed to let it shift - that's your 1-2 shift.  Accelerate away, then then held the footfeed to the floor as you shifted into high range.  This would then downshift it into the underdrive while switching to high range - that's the equivalent of teh 2-3 upshift.  Continue accelerating, then release the accelerator and it will automatically shift again - your 3-4 upshift.  Of course that was fairly hard on the drivetrain, but quite useful for drag racing until my dad found out nobody was interested in challenging him after a couple of wins  ;D

http://www.allpar.com/mopar/fluidrive.html

Not that there's anything wrong with that !!



Another good way to be fairly hard on the drivetrain is to "powerjack," when a kid happens to have the grownups' car that has an automatic.

Speed trials, just before nighttime curfew, on a 2-lane straightaway neighborhood road. Probably a quarter mile, I later extrapolated.

Hold left foot firmly on the brake pedal.  Right foot tromp down.  When sufficient RPM pressure builds, lift left foot, plant on floor.

Test No. 1:  Dad's leased Ford Galaxy, a 1970, 351, 2V  , eh, okay, no big deal

Test No. 2:  Grandfather's 1970 Buick, 455, 4 bbl.  OK, now we're awake

Test No. 3:  Grandfather's 1964 Buick, 401, 4 bbl,  yeah, same sort of deal

TEST NO 4:  Mom's 1969 Mercury convertible: 429, 4bbl, dual exhaust, posi rear
       
                             WHWWWWWWEEEEE push me BACK in the seat
                                                and hang on

That Mercury was the only one where the back wheels would start smokin' even though I was holding the damn brake pedal best I could to the floor.

GTO (Gas, Tires & Oil)  My first car was a '69 goat... hauled azz fer sure!

John said:
May have been but it was stuffed into ~1950's Olds 88. This is the classic story of my buddy finding this automobile in a barn with green paint spilled on it. It had only 3200 miles on it, (this was the late '70's)! Anyway, he took it in to get inspected and the guys in the shop were so amazed they tore everything down and put new gaskets in. The engine hadn't even been 'broke in'. I was reading somewhere on the  WWW that the GM factory that made transmissions for Olds was destroyed by fire. They may have sent out a few with MOPAR boxes in them.

You guys are talking about 2 different systems. GM came out with the original 4-speed turbo-hydramatic back in the early 50s, it was a big, massive casting and full automatic. Available on Olds, Pontiac, Cadillac, but not on chebbies. They got the 2-speed cast Iron Powerglide.

The Chrysler Fluid Drive was just a manual transmission with a torque converter in series with the clutch. Chrysler developed the cast iron 2-speed Powerflite, which evolved into the 3-speed cast iron Torqueflite, and then the aluminum 3-speed Torqueflite.

Johnny,
           That ALLPAR site is pretty FB!! A lot of good MoPar and info history there!!
I liked the fact that they even mentioned the turbine car. I still have an original dealer brochure for them from back in the 60s!!   

The *original* Fluid Drive was indeed a 3 speed manual with a torque converter.  Starting about 1948 they introduced the semi-automagic Fluid Drive transmission.  The page I linked details the history.

You could get a HydraMatic in Oldsmobiles and Cadillacs (and perhaps Buicks) starting about 1940.  That was a 4-speed fully automagic, with a more or less conventional (as we know it today) shifter, with all gears in a line.  Reverse was all the way down and the neutral position didn't separate reverse and first, it was further up the chain as I recall.  I drove a '41 Cadillac with a HydraMatic and it worked surprisingly well, considering it was one of the first automagic trannies on the market.  However it was a slug compared to my dad's '38 Cadillac with the conventional 3 on the tree. 

The Fluid Drive, on the other hand, had gates similar to a 3-speed manual column shift.  The first gear position was missing on the semi-auto Fluid Drives, there being only a high and low range (each range had two speeds).  Reverse was in the familiar towards-you-and-up, low range was forward-and-up, high range was forward-and-down.  And you needed the clutch any time you moved the shifter.

Back to the '50s Olds, a bit of research indicated that the HydraMatic plant did indeed burn down and Oldsmobiles were saddled with the POS Buick DynaFlow which was a ttwo-speed manually shifted tranny with a torque converter.  Normal driving was with it in high range but you could manually shift it from low to high - it didn't shift automagically.  I've never driven one of these but I can imagine it would be painfully slow.

Some more good information on the early automatic drives from Popular Science April 1950, I remember seeing this article years ago and with the wonders of modern google books and search it is now easy to find:

http://books.google.com/books?id=DC0DAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA98&dq=dynaflow&hl=en&ei=N8UdTf_7GIGKlwf86bCnDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=dynaflow&f=false

well, Transmission guy just called and the truck is fixed.
I asked about driving in third and if that would have helped hauling heavy loads. He said the early 700R4s had some design issues but the electronic control on the 4L60E fixed those problems. He told me some Ford transmissions get better life if you down shift because the torgue is spread over multiple clutches.
Third and fourth gear clutches were just worn out no other problems

My uncle had a HUGE Chrysler sedan 1950 something and it was a beauty. I called it the magic car coz he could make it shift by taking his foot off the gas. It looked like a stick shift and had a clutch. You could hear a clank sometimes when it shifted.

Fred

Great Popular Science Article!  My understanding was (and the article  almost got into it)" was the Fluid drive and or hydraulic torque converter was perfected during WW II in some of our tanks or tank like vehicles.

The Planetary Drive systems that Henry Ford (and others used) was right off the factory line shaft drive systems from the 1800's. I go to a Maine Boat builders show in Portland that is held in an old factory on the waterfront and pieces of the old line shaft and " planetary transmission" are still in place.  Henry's genius was to close in the drive and keep it quenched in oil.

The advent of the CV transmissions in new cars (take off of a 60+ year old Browning industrial drive system) will likely make the automatic as we know it obsolete in another 10 years. That is if we stick with gas engine technology.

It would be interesting to apply today's engineering to a Steam powered car. There is a parallel to a Steam drive system and Electric drive.  No need for a transmission, infinite torque, near silent operation.  IMHO the issue with electric continues to be with the storage of POWER. Like it or not, the amount of energy stored in a tank of gas still exceeds that of any battery out there. Think what a hyper efficient steam generator could do in say a hybrid.

Looking back (just like reading the 1950's PS article) we cling to what we know. The economies and politics of change have to come into play.  Remember sealed Beam Headlights, (?) of course you do, and there are still a few cars using them. Today we have  replacement bulbs. At one time back in the 60' and 70's the installation of anything but a seal beam lamp was illegal. Why, well there was the case that the non-sealbeams were too bright, however the reality of the situation was the manufacturers of sealed beam lamps had their lobby in Washington to keep things the way there were. I remember when it was a big deal to work on a "Gray Market" import and have to retrofit the head lamps to have it inspected. Removing a superior lighting system to meet our US laws..

Back on Subject:  Frank, how is the new transmission working out? - Steve

"Back in the old days" automatic transmixers were troublesome, sometimes hateful devices, surrounded by superstition and mystery. Many mechanics were scared to death to even think about repairing them. Probably 90% of the problems with them were caused by crappy fluids and piss-poor friction materials. the friction materials they have now far, far excede the quality of what they had back then. The lubricants are absolutely no comparison.

A thought to ponder would how long would one of those clunky old Hydramatics last if it was rebuilt with today's materials. Now most of them that get rebuilt for restorations never get many miles put on them. Even the thought of an automatic transmixer lasting 100K was pretty much unheard of just 20 years ago. They were just considered an "expendable" part that had to be replaced periodically, like brakes or tires or sparkplugs.. Lets face it, even the clutch in a manual transmixer car was an "expendable" part, but if you were having it done, it was a lot cheaper repair.

Here ya go, Steve,
               If you like Model Ts and steam stuff, you NEED one of these!!  ;D  ;D


http://www.wxpnews.com/1TG846/100126-Steam-Powered-Airplane

http://www.all-acronyms.com/PONTIAC

Truck back in the yard, pockets inside out.
He replaced the converter. When I asked about it he said he would never reuse a converter. Then took me in the shop to see one cut open. A locking converter has a lot going on inside it.
Shifts very nice now

Most excellent Franz. There are tons of nooks and crannies in the those torque converters. Slab is correct about AT's with 100K miles. Even if you flushed your system with fresh AT fluid and changed the filter on the valve body, it was no guarantee that you would achieve longevity with it.
One thing that didn't get mentioned in all this transmission "transmission" was the old Chrysler "push-button" style that were used in the Plymouth Furys, Chrysler Imperials, and I believe some of the Ramblers used them as well.

Poor Old Numbskull Thinks It's A Cadillac.

Hey Frank, GFZ -- glad you're rollin' again.
Now go stress that powertrain a little and prove it out.

---

Frank/AHE -- our 1955 Dodge had the pushbutton shift.
Drove my Mom crazy not having a lever to drop out of Park.

There was a pod over on the left, where you'd find today's A/C outlet.

HMMMM I got a different version from a famous ham.

I thought the converter was just two sets of turbine vanes with fluid between them
Man was I surprised to see all the stuff inside. Even if it was perfectly cleaned the clutch would be old. He said spec is 50 RPM slippage in lock mode.
My truck runs 2000 RPM at 77 MPH in OD. About a month ago I noticed it closer to 73 MHZ but thought it was just because it was cold. It was going down.
At least it didn't fail in the yard at the beach Thanksgiving when I was moving my Brother's 500 pound wood planer

One Sunday on the way to grandma's my Brother and I jump in the '57 Ventura and I start pushing buttons. Buttons jam like a mofo so jump in the back and act stupid.
OM comes out and goes to take off....ERRRRR who was playing with my car as he is glaring at me in the rear view. Needed kick in the butt got off easy that time.

Paul, Still reeling from the pain I'll take it easy.
I had a 1960 Pontiac 389 with an old 4 speed hydro.
I could lay down 100 feet of rubber (one wheel) and never hurt it.
That was a beast.

Mikey,
         That was a cable operated shifter mechanism used on early Torqueflites, both aluminum and cast iron. I found I still had one of the dash mounted pushbutton units  while cleaning out my mom's basement a few weeks back!!

Paul,
      the early Chrysler automatics (cast iron ones) did not have a "park". They relied strictly on the "emergency brake" mounted on the tailstock of the transmission. This could create some unique problems!! I twisted the driveshaft off on my 1960 New Yorker (which I wish I had back) on a hill on a back road. I couldn't even go for help, I had to set there and hold the brake pedal until someone came by to throw a chock under the wheel so I wouldn't drift backwards down the hill. A broken driveshaft meant no parking brake!!

IIRC Chrysler cars didn't get a "Park" until 1961 or 2.

The neat thing I remember about the Chryslers and the Plymouths is that the heater controls were pretty much a mirror image of the drive controls! Everything even steven.

I remember the old Desoto that my aunt had that was like that.  I remember telling my dad to take his foot off the gas so it would shift.  He would tell me to shut up - just couldn't get used to the idea.  I think it just had one gear forward and one reverse and a torque converter.  Very crude

Al

My '62 Imperial had the pushbutton transmission, but no park position.  There was a foot-operated parking brake that, as you mentioned, operated on the transmission tailstock.  My '65 Imperial had a conventional shift quadrant with a "park" position, but it was still cable operated, and the "park" position was always problematic - I usually just parked it in neutral with the parking brake set.  I believe some of the Chrysler products of the era had the starter engage switch behind the "neutral" button, so you mashed "neutral" to start.  My '62 Imperial had a conventional key start though.

The '62 was truly a cool car.  Square steering wheel, foot-tuned radio, electro-luminescent dashboard, unique door locks (just push the inside door handle down to lock, lift to open), "sparrow strainer" tail lights strapped on top of the tailfins... and it would handily outdo my buddy's '79 TransAm on both the straightway AND the curves, which pissed him off to no end  ;D

the Electro-luminescent dash was about the coolest thing since sliced bread!! I used to love the one on my '60 New Yorker!! Even the meter pointers lit up!! It had a small inverter power supply up under the dash that furnished the 100v or so to light it. If you had the engine shut off and it was very quiet, you could hear it hum when you turned on the lights. I thought that instrument cluster was so kool that I saved it when I cut the car up years ago. As a matter of fact, it is still on the shelf in my moms basement.

My '64 Chrysler wagon had park. that was the car that started me NEVER using the parking brake. The cables would always freeze up in the winter, leaving me stranded and looking for a blow torch to unfreeze them!! (that car was the biggest POS I ever owned)  So I guess the parking sprag appeared on Torqueflites in '63 or 4.
I seem to remember the "park" selector being a small sliding lever that went horizontally under the pushbuttons??

The older cars in the USA had so much class. There are archive pictures from my wife's country, Philippines 1950's, and the vehicles there in Manila were American made cars and the familiar Volkswagon.
It's ashame that around the 70's, and the USA's rude awakening that oil was not going to flow so freely or cheaply, was going to stress the auto industry. And the stupid emission standards were addressed so poorly. USA made cars used the cheapest way out and 12 MPG. It seems the higher wages paid to workers really didn't give us a better car.
This thread has been kinda educating. Automatic transmissions are a little more involved than what they used to be.

Fred

My dad's 1953 Desoto had a clutch to start going and then would automatically shift to second.

With the locking torque converters the gas mileage advantage of the manual has gone away.  Despite the complexity of the auto transmission, they've been reliable for me and it's good to have the hands free for the microphone.   The only problem I ever had was a band broke in my 1975 Maverick.

I change the transaxle fluid regularly in my 1997 Camry which now has 223,000 miles, going for 300,000.

I echo what Tom said about regularly changing fluids.

I find that many AT tranny valve problems are a result of varnish forming on the valves and the bores due to oxidized ATF.

I have made it a practise to change ATF and filters every 30,000 miles in spite of the so-called "Lifetime" fluids. Fluids are much cheaper than tranny rebuilds.

I have had no tranny problems with high mileage vehicles doing this.

Phil - AC0OB

I am guilty of not changing my fluid but it never smelled bad.
I'll adjust that habit after yesterday's bill.
I changed the fluid and filter at 100K in my old '88 which had the big transmission. I felt it a waste of time since the filter was clean and fluid fine. There was just a thin film of metal filings sitting on the pan floor that were not going anywhere.

Wow, much later than I had imagined. Dad's '50 Lincoln has the GM automatic which also lacks park, it has the big 'T' shaped handle beneath the dash that you just yank up then twist to lock. I just chuckled to picture Ford buying transmissions from GM back then since they didn't have an automatic ready for prime time.

Back when I was doing the road rally thing, we used to drain the fluid, fill with stock fluid and run it for a few days, then drain, fill with a synthetic and go. I used Red Line, AMSoil was another popular choice later. Granted, they were standard transmission cars but we pounded the pss outta them and never had a transmission failure.

Count your blessings, Frank: you could be driving an Audi, which would involve similarly-priced repairs to one system or another almost monthly. ;)

Tonight John KC2FXE was just telling me about Dextron 6 trans fluid being full synthetic. I bet my guy just put the required DEX 3 fluid in my box. It showed 12 quarts on the bill. I need to call him monday and ask if it is OK to mix two different types. John said it takes the heat much better.

Todd, I wouldn't own a HOS yuppie mobile that had that kind of repair history. This is my first big repair bill in 45 years.

In 1967 I had a 63 plymouth sport fury 383 wedge running AHRA e-stock formula 2 automatic...I built a clutch flite transmission...a cast iron torqueflite that I sawed the front off and tapped it out and put on a scattershield...had a clutch plate that was splined to the automatic input shaft...Launched it with the clutch and shifted it manually with a typewriter pushbutton setup...Ran under the nat'l record with a B&M valve body and 8  inch wrinklewalls....Tough tranny but the input shaft took a beating......I ran tractor hydraulic fluid....

Dex VI is compatible with units requiring the previous spec Dex III and the old III should be pretty much disappearing from shelves since GM moved to VI in 2006.  Dexron VI is a synthetic blend and not a full synthetic, I researched this since the Allison auto on my pickup came factory filled with Dexron VI but Allison still recommends TransSynD (which is a full synthetic) for severe usage. 

If it is full of Dexron III I would use more Dexron III for any needed small addition but next change you should move to Dexron VI.  Dex VI is supposed to be fully mixable with Dex III in older transmissions but you would gain no advantage from just adding a small amount of VI to the large amount of III already in there.  With either fluid, if your vehicle doesn't have the auxiliary air to fluid cooler (in addition to the heat exchanger in the radiator)  that would be a wise and low cost upgrade for longer life.

 Here is the GM link that was released with the change:  www.gm.com/.../DEXRON_VI_Service_Fill_Release_30NO07.doc

Thanks Roger. John also thought you could mix them. My heavy hauling days are almost over so this box should last a while.