The AM Forum

..i listen to the guys on 3733 some afternoons...any idea what/where the deliberate qwarm is coming from?..i see it did not follow down to 3725, when the gang moved there, on saturday......

..sk..

There was a fairly large group on 33 for a while before this began.

Did not follow us to 3725.

Following is just a portion of the t-rash

Sounds a lot like the T-rash on 3885 last night.  About 0430 GMT, there was no AM anywhere on 75 - and very little SSB.  Guess everyone was working the 160m CW QuaRMtest.  I ran a CQ on 3885, and right away got multiple responses.  Another example of the band being dead because everyone was listening and no-one was transmitting. With the receiver in the 8 kc/s selectivity position, I heard some monkey chatter from a strong AM QSO that had started up above 3890.  Then that exact same sounding deliberate QRM came on top of our QSO.  We ignored it and it eventually went away.  Worked AM stations in Texas, Arkansas and Washington state. A couple of others broke in with riceboxes, said it was their first and second time on AM, that they liked it and would probably work AM some more.

I attributed the QRM to some bozo from the 3892 crowd, pissed off because there was a strong, untouchable AM QSO on or near "their" frequency, who decided to retaliate by attempting to jam AM activity in the "window".

I was listening during the day on 3885, one SSB station was splattering from 3992, the others were all clean.    Went to listen on 3992, the whole topic of conversation was whining about AM'ers and K4KYV in particular.     They must not have anything better to talk about as they are there every time I turn on the rig.

Dave,

The tape you posted above - it may be just the way that jamming signal was tuned in, but to me it sounded like a person mocking/simulating the "SSS" and sibilant sounds we hear from an AM station when tuning off frequency.  In his own sick way, the perp may be trying to give the Amers some of their own medicine on freq ...;)

T

Last week when I stopped by to say hello to the group, the interference Dave posted was present. At first, I thought it was someone up the band with a parasitic issue, but the noise was confining itself to roughly 6 kc of spectrum, with the WFD group at its center. They were obviously playing with the VFO knob like a "DJ rapper" and either making moronic sounds or looping a recording of nonsense sounds in a mode that I couldn't identify. It seemed like they would pause and listen now and then to be sure they were being "effective". I'm sure a therapist could help this person, but unfortunately, he may not have the intelligence to seek help. I'm sure he's sitting in a dark room somewhere, all by himself, gleefully applauding his own cleverness.

..rob..i agree, but it was weird that it did not "beat" with an AM carrier...even with moving his vfo, i tried listening in lsb/usb, no hetrodyne...i tried listening in the FM mode, no difference...

..sk..

What is "qwarm"? 

Jim said:

"Cheese and crackers! You don't know what qwarm is?" (in my best Astabula Bill falsetto)  ;)

Isn't it in the Timtron Lexicon? Wher is that located BTW?

Apparently, Timtron has multiple wiki pages now!  :o


http://www.hfunderground.com/wiki/Category:Timtron

http://www.w1ujr.net/glossary.htm

It was USB!
And, as Rob pointed out, the gentleman was "rocking" the VFO knob.

The SDR software on the R4A did a reasonable job since he stayed below 3733 MOST of the time.

I listened after the net and a VE3 with identical signal strength came on with a friend and mentioned the AM noise quite often.
He said the U.S. should outlaw "that crap"!

Just another "everything should be my way" idiot!

<<He said the U.S. should outlaw "that crap"!>>

Pretty rich of him to say that since AM is legal in Canada.  Maybe he doesn't even know that.

...likely does not know it...many are so ignorant of rules, and regs...most canadian hams dont realize we dont have restrictions, like other countries...they read the ARRL stuff, and think we have "cw portions", etc...

..sk..

Actually, the U.S. is one of a very few, if not the only country remaining with sub-band mode restrictions. I recall they did away with sub-bands in western Europe sometime during the early post-WW2 era, maybe in the 1950s.  Canada deleted them a couple of decades ago, although I don't remember the exact date. I don't believe any other country ever had licence class sub-bands like ours. Some do regulate maximum transmitter power according licence class.

Unfortunately, many of the countries that eliminated mode sub-bands also adopted overall, specific, occupied-bandwidth limits.  I believe Canada's is 6 kc/s. They don't seem to strictly enforce it, though, since I never heard of a Canadian AMer being cited for exceeding the limit, and most Canadian hams say they don't use any special audio filtering to cut off everything above 3000~. The maximum bandwidth in some European countries is too narrow to accommodate DSB AM.  Shades of the FCC's failed attempt via Docket 20777.

The FCC is unlikely to pass a specific rule to outlaw AM outright, but what bears watching is de-facto preclusion by sneaking in a bandwidth restriction. This wouldn't be an issue except for the fact that so many other countries now have specific bandwidth limitations, which might embolden the FCC to once again try it here.

About sub-band restrictions in the USA:

What I find interesting is that "gentlemen's agreements" do work - even in melting pot areas like Europe. Even though Euro hams can operate down below 14.100 on ssb, I've never heard an ssb signal down there. Just CW, RTTY, packet, etc. USA cannot go below 14.150 on ssb. (or on AM)

So if it can work in Eu, why not eliminate sub-bands in the USA?  


And inversely, I still wonder why Euro hams cannot operate at all above 3800. I hear a couple of Euro shortwave BC stns in the 3975-3995 area, but that's it.    (Not including the commercial/military hash that's all over the 75M band coming from Europe)


T

Try it (again) and see what happens to ya, Tom.

It does seem to work in the USA.  We don't have any sub-band restrictions on 160, and despite the claims of a small group who unsuccessfully petitioned the FCC to establish them, there is seldom any conflict between phone and CW on that band.  When a conflict does occur, it is almost always during QuaRMtests.  I don't think we should allow QuaRMtests, which occur on occasional weekends, to dictate the rules we must follow 365/24.  The QuaRMtest committees should voluntarily limit the scope of their events so that they don't violate the band plans - with the penalty of disqualification for those ops who do.

Actually, I believe the Europeans can legally operate phone all the way down to 14000, but they do follow the band plan.

Canadians  can operate phone all the way down to the bottom ends of the bands too, but I seldom hear Canadian phones below 3700, let alone below 3600, nor do I often hear them on 7100-7125.  Perhaps, as Tim said, most Canadians are not aware that they don't have sub-band restrictions any more.

A major sticking point with me is that US hams in the lower 48 cannot operate phone below 7125, while 7060-7125 is usually practically unoccupied while our measly 75 kc/s of broadcast-free phone spectrum may be loaded to the hilt during prime time on 40m. Even during major CW QuaRMtests, like Sweepstakes, the 40m CW activity dwindles rapidly above about 7060, and only a  handful of CW signals are ever heard above 7075. Yet, many of the CW buffs bristle at the very thought of extending the phone band down to 7100, let alone to 7075. Use it or lose it.

Some of the CW community still whine that 3600-3700 was "stolen" from them with the 75m phone band expansion. Nothing was stolen from anyone; it is still perfectly legal to use CW in that segment, and usually there is plenty of room to do so without bothering the phone ops, since the segment has once again become sparsely populated since the novelty of the expanded phone band has worn off and many AM and SSB ops gradually migrated back to their old stomping grounds.

US hams in Alaska and Hawaii, as well as in PR, Guam and other US overseas territories, are allowed to operate phone on 7075-7100 because the broadcast QRM made the phone band unusable above 7100 before 7.1-7.2 was vacated by SWBC.  That special phone privilege no longer serves any useful purpose, but no-one has made any move to change anything. Simply eliminating that special privilege might be interpreted as a reduction in existing privileges, and in fact, would be.  Since it appears highly unlikely that the feecee will eliminate US mode sub-bands any time in the foreseeable future, maybe it's high time for someone to petition to move that special phone segment from 7075-7100 to 7100-7125, and open it up to all US amateurs. WATSA ARRL?


That's just it. that commercial/military hash is classified as "Fixed" and "Mobile" service, which retains the exclusive allocation from 3800-3950 in Region 2.  There are no Euro broadcasters below 3950.  The BC stations we hear lower in the band are from Region 1 (Asia/Pacific). The Region 1 broadcast allocation is 3900-4000, while the one in Europe and Africa is 3950-4000.

I have noticed lately that another hash station has fired up on about 3870.  The other night when the skip went long, it seemed that the entire band from about 3830 to 3870 was rendered unusable with what sounded like digital hash or broad-band jamming.

Bud,

What exactly did happen to you guys when you formed the "Think Tank" and proposed it?  I recall you and some other prominent AMers petitioned the FCC to eliminate mode sub-bands while retaining licence class sub-bands, but withdrew it after the ARRL bandwidth petition came out and about the same time, the phone band expansion was passed.  I assumed that you withdrew your petition to avoid muddling the issue, since at the time the bandwidth petition seemed a more immediate concern in regards to AM operation.

Did you feel subjected to some kind of behind-the-scenes menace to make you feel compelled to withdraw the petition?  If so, please expound.  If you prefer not to post it publicly, maybe you could PM or e-mail me.

?  You mean submit a propsal to eliminate sub-bands? - and what do you think will happen ?



All in all, I think the biggest threat, if ya wanna call it that, is sometime in the future we will tune the bands and except for static, hear dead silence. The last CQ will have been called. Everyone just got old, lost interest and no longer gets on the bands.  The few remaining younger guys got bored and migrated to the internet. We could have unlimited priviledges from 00hz to 1ghz, but if there's nobody on, it doesn't matter.

That day will probably come - it's just a matter of when. Get on and enjoy the good old days now.

T
 

..on sunday, i was listening for ken, ve3maw testing his NVIS antenna, tuned for 7290...i could barely hear him, and suggested going to lsb, on 7055. there is a net there, all day, and has been there for decades...he called cq, and got a response..antenna werks...but, before this happened, i heard a W3 station calling cq on 7080,lsb....i told him he was out of band, and reminded him he should not be below 7125. he got his back up, stating he has his extra class, and he hears english speaking stations down there all the time...i politely reminded him to check the regs in the states...he still did not believe me...


..sk..

That already applies to the folks who don't call CQ.  ;)

For the rest of us, unless they ban us from transmitting or we've all croaked, there will be some noise on the bands. If you can tune, you can call CQ - until yer BITF!! That's the more likely scenario, a CQ with no answer ala War of the Worlds or Zach Hobson/The Quiet Planet. Everyone else will be having a net or contesting on Skype.

..at least the AM crowd is not the only ones who have problems/wars...i've heard some real nasty stuff, with the digi-guys and ssb ops around 7171...

..sk..

Which one do you suggest we join?.. ;D

* BITF  Black Information Technology Forum (South Africa)  
* BITF Brawl in the Family (webcomic)  
* BITF Body Image Task Force (University of Idaho)  
* BITF Borneo International Trade Fair (Kota Kinabalu, Sabah, Malaysia)  
* BITF Border Indicators Task Force (US EPA)  
* BITF Business Initiative Task Force (US DoD)
* BITF Blue In The Face  (KA1KAQ-ism Club)

FYI:
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/ecfs/comment/view?id=5513688362
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/ecfs/comment/view?id=5513688363

And two "think tankers" trying to hook onto IARU Region 2 Band Plan after both RM-11305 and RM-11306 proposals were going down the tubes:
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/ecfs/comment/view?id=5513481235
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/ecfs/comment/view?id=5513481324

"Applauding," eh ?

Haven't heard it called that, thanks.

That's actually a Jack/K9ACT-ism from his pre-robot days, made more famous through overuse by Buddly and myself. You should know Tom, I'm not that clever. Though I did coin the term Plexi-King....   ;D

HEY.......... that one's Mine!!!!


Don;
Let just say I no longer have the phone number I had then!
People with different...... opinions..... can be very unpleasent when you suggest changes to "THEIR" status quo!

Pete:

The history lesson is enjoyable but I was refering to what happened to me on a personal level!

Oooops! I stand corrected! That'd make me RITF?

Actually, Todd, I gotta give you your dues! You used it quite a bit during the same period to help bring it to significance!

Well I just got a nice Christmas card from a certain someone at the FCC, saying thanks for you and the other AMers using the expanded phone band we gave you on 80m and 40m; now don't be filing Petitions anymore, love and kisses.

So it all comes out well.

He'll get his Christmas wish there, at least from me !

When the CTT proposed doing away with sub-bands, mixing modes, or whatever it was they proposed, a well known low band dxer really went into doom overdrive saying it would be the end of ham radio as we know it or something to that effect.  There was a lot of hysteria. 

Well, it would be. That's the point, right?

That's why I let caller ID and the answering machine take care of my incoming phone calls.  If someone calls me and the call is worth responding to, they will leave a message on the machine.  I'll return the call if I feel like it. These days, over 90% of my incoming calls are junk.  Most don't even bother to leave a message.


Sounds like sarcasm to me. After all the hullabaloo from numerous parties, we managed to get the phone band generously expanded. After a few weeks, once the novelty wore off, just about everyone migrated back to their old hanging-out frequency, and now that part of the band is just about as sparsely populated as it ever was before the expansion. Don't think the people at the FCC don't listen to what is going on.

You're right about the sarcasm. No card, really.

But to some extent, your second point supports the basis for the CTT proposal: relax the mandatory segregation and let people of good will sort it out on their own. Enforcement action is still available against those who choose not to play well with others.

If the bands were to be de-segregated, the slopbucket corntestees would take over the ENTIRE of EVERY Band with the CQ Contest....UR 59...agn...agn....ad nauseum......


Tom - AB3FL

And that differs from ....??????

Being able to sometimes find an open frequency in the Extra portion of 80 meters phone during contests.... if there were no subbands, it would fill up with all the General class operators fast...

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm... good point!

  "  it would fill up with all the General class operators fast...  "


Yeah .....  also, its gud to have the special frekincies; it's a lot easier to look down upon the lowely unwashed ( i.e. generals).


...  _ _  .._   _ _ .

klc

AWE......... Come on Wigger. There's plenty of soap and water to fix that! And you don't hafta wait till a Saturday night to do it!

I have a 5HP power washer  :o  :o  :o  :o  ;D

See there... and I'll throw in a wire brush and brillo pad!

Hey, it works for me.

'spencive

There's nothing special about those or any other frequencies. It seems to get overlooked a lot though, that the only people keeping the Generals from using those frequencies are....the Generals themselves. Huh! A kind of self-imposed exile, Generally-speaking.  ;)

Though as one incredibly astute poster (known to some as Captain Obvious) pointed out recently, it's indeed one's God-given right to not only be a General, but to remain one forevah. Semper Generalis!

No pressure washer required, either way. Just back away from that trigger, Slab......sloooowly....... Cuz I just know when you run outta Generals, you'll come looking for us somewhat-less-but-still-lowly Advanced ops to hose. I see it in yer eyes.....

QuaRMtesters tend to gather towards the low-frequency end of the band.  During the recent sweepstakes, there were plenty of open spots above 3900. 3900-4000 is a segment vastly neglected by AMers.  Many of the OF slopbucketeers who dominated that segment for decades are now talking on the Icom in the sky.  

Todd, That was a piss and moan classic comment for the thread that will never end

Speaking of long threads............

Ted Nugent is on tonight.........Spirit of the Wild!!!
Outdoor Channel........ 8:30PM EST.

Tooth, Fang and Claw!

Now that it's once again fashionable to call for slashing the federal deficit and curbing unnecessary government spending, I wonder how much longer the FCC will be willing to utilise its limited resources to micro-manage amateur radio by enforcing sub-bands and refereeing over-the-air squabbles.

I suspect their main concern will be (in fact already is) preventing interference to other services, and they will increasingly be paying little attention to the internal affairs of ham radio (and other services like CB) as long as we keep our signals and spurious emissions within the confines of our own band allocations and keep transmitter power low enough to avoid anything more than occasional RFI complaints from the general public.

This may eventually nudge the FCC into going along with the idea of Canadian style sub-band deregulation, despite the inevitable protests from the DX and CW purists. Maybe it will be enough to discourage them from getting on the bandwidth bandwagon as well. But OTOH we shouldn't expect much help from the FCC in dealing with line noise, consumer garbage hash and QRMers/jammers, either.