The AM Forum

Pontiac died today
Seems like yesterday when I laid rubber across the student parking lot with my 1960 Catalina, Prowlers on the back
And a few years later doing in my Dad's drill porting the crap out of a set of heads to improve exhaust flow in my '65 Tempest.
And some years later building the Firebird motor in the livingroom.

All of GM went out of business a few years ago.

Yup, owned several over the years:  Firebird, 6000, Grand Am, Sunfire, Sunbird.  All were dependable machines, sorry to see the brand go...

Had a 76 Pontiac "detective's car," a 2-door with a 400 cu in 4bbl.

But after that, the slogan seemed to match when Pontac said

"We build excrement"

Let's face it Most of the american car mfrs and especially General Mothers made some pretty pathetic cars back in the late 70s and early 80s. Ford was about the only one that made anything even remotely close to a descent reliable car back then.

This gave the Japanese the chance they were looking for and they took it and ran with it!
I know too many people that now drive Nissans and Yotas that used to be dyed in the wool GM owners. Chrysler cars back then werent worth the gas it took to tow them to the scrap yard either. All have gotten their act together now, but it's like closing the gate after the cows are out in the road. The damage is done and it is too late to change it back.

Years ago, when I worked in the automotive trade, I used to love to tell customers:
"Sorry, we dont work on foreign cars". But, now there is no such thing. Foreign cars are now the norm, not the exception. You can thank the corperate greed of the americam mfrs for that.

GM was one of the worst for sitting back on their laurels and taking the attitude that
"They will buy what WE build" because of the high customer loyalty. They did not build what the customers wanted, so the customers went looking elsewhere, and found what they wanted at the time in the imported cars.

I was a dyed in the wool MoPar man for many years. Now, I wouldn't even consider one! Go Figger, I have bought / owned Fords for the last 20+ years.

So I guess Pontiac just forgot how to "Build Excitement"  ;)  

It seems very sad to me that even a discussion about cars becomes political. Kinda says a lot about these times.

May the old GM of the 50's, 60's(maybe into the early 70's) rest in peace!  Home of the '57 Chevy, rat V-8s 265, 283, 327, 350, big blocks 409, 427, etc. etc  Camaros and Goats and all the other neat stuff they produced in the magic years.  I owned several Chevies and even a '57 Pontiac convertible.  Wow, what a car.

73,  Jack, W9GT

What is political in the posts thus far? Discussing business trends and happenings seems to be what is going on here.

The reality is that the Japanese makers would have grown regardless what the US car companies would have done. Poor performance by the USA makers just made it easier for the Japanese and others like VW.

If you look at the growth of the Japanese economy from the turn of the 19th to the 20th century to WWII, it was on an arc to compete with the USA in the 40's and 50's. Their loss in WWII just interupped and delayed that arc until about the 70's and 80's.

My first "new" car was a 1968 Pontiac Tempest Custom Sprint with the infamous OHC 6 with a Quadra-Jet 4 barrel, 10.75 compression ratio, 4 speed, posi, and not much else.  No "Goat", but it would beat 289 Mustang or a 327 2 bbl Camaro in the quarter mile.

BTW, how many cars have you guys and gals owned that you had wished you had kept?

60 Catalina, 65 Tempest transplant 389, 74 Firebird, 78 Firebird transplant '74 motor bored, camed and balanced, 2009 G5.

BTW the 2009 G5 is a very nice car. I bought it for my daughter. It gets 30MPG

Rick Wagner trashed that company

Most of the Japanese cars are made in the US.   My grandfather always had the hottest cars.    I remember when he would let me drive his 1959 Pontiac.    It was automatic but would lay a long patch of rubber whenever you floored it.

59 and 60 hydromatic was a 4 speed with a 3.3:1 first gear.
Made up for the 3.08 rear end. I changed my '60 to a carter AFB and dual exhause. Painted it primer red so my friends called it "big red"
Later for 1 winter took care of snow removal for my painter neighbor and he shot it for me

Boy, I remember those huge hulking trannies!! They were cast iron cased man killers! That was the transmission that put B&M on the map. Remember those old advertisements for the "B&M Hydro Stick" they even made adaptors to fit them to other mfr's engines as well.

They hadn't invented high stall speed torque converters yet and those were among the few automatics that would hold up to "neutral starts"  ;D  ;D

Back in the 60s-80s while the Japanese automakers' R&D was seeking reliability, durability and fuel efficiency, the US automakers' R&D was concentrating on body style and color preferences.

I remember when the trend got its start: in the late 50s with the VW Beetle.  US manufacturers were producing long, low, wide tanks with tailfins and 13mpg fuel efficiency, and the body style was given a complete make-over every model year.  The VW came out with the tiny Beetle whose style didn't change from year to year, and got over 20 mpg (very fuel efficient for those days), and the cars began to steal Detroit's thunder, selling  like hotcakes.

VW's ads used to boast that they didn't believe in planned obsolescence.  In fact, I believe the writers of those ads are the ones who coined the phrase.  But those ads were somewhat deceptive.  The car may have looked the same every year from the exterior, other than for minor functional and cosmetic changes, such as going from the split rear window and later enlarging the one-piece one, to the emergence of the Super Beetle.  But internally, the parts were made slightly different each year, so that one could rarely swap parts from one model year to another. I discovered than when  I once owned a Karmann Ghia.  Some of the changes were totally useless, like slightly changing the size of bushings on the moving parts in the wiper mechanism, but just enough to require ordering the part for that specific model year, and making it more difficult to find a part that fit from the salvage yard. Whenever I had to buy a replacement part, I always had to give the specific model year and usually they told me that a similar part made for the previous or subsequent year wouldn't work on my car.

VW's monopoly in quality began to go down in the mid 70s as Toyota and other Japanese manufacturers made inroads and finally dominated the import car market.  The success of the Japanese was largely due to the public's acceptance of Japanese  made products.  In the years following WW2, "made in Japan" became synonymous with cheap, low quality crap, mostly trinkets of various descriptions, since their manufacturing infrastructure had been reduced to rubble during the War.  As the factories were rebuilt, using brand new equipment and state of the  art technology, they were able to produce a superior product, but it took some time for the rest of the world to catch on the quality of a Japanese product.

The quality of US cars began to go down the toilet about the same time that the majority of homes finally owned a TV, and the public began to be saturated with TV commercials to tout the latest and greatest and  to show off the newest body styles.  I wonder if there is a connection or if that was just a coincidence.  

The "slant 4" was basically a 389 with one cylinder bank sawed off and a Corvair transaxle.

That was definately a strange arrangement for something from GM ???  ???

Yes the hydro would take neutral starts. Been there done that many times.
Also had a front and rear pump. The only problem was it shifted out of first gear too fast with no manual control. It moved that 2 ton '60 slug out of the hole

that's where B&M made their fame, getting them to shift right!!

My 1969 Camaro with the 327 and 4bbl Holley 750, and Hurst shifter, on a Muncie 4 spd.

Even had "ADD-ON" air conditioning installed.........The kind that the blower unit hung on the bottom of the dash.

Black stripes......................... big wheels and dual exhaust.

Fred

Sad to hear about Pontiac.

We have a nice 2004 Pontiac Grand Am here. Back three years ago it cost us $12K used.  I just looked up the blue book at $5500 retail and $3500 trade-in value.  (Haircut)

I wonder how difficult it will be getting parts in the future? Will values plummet as a result - or hold their own due to Poncho not being made any more?

Those complex computer systems scare me. Last year the car died for 4 hours after sitting at the shopping center. It had to be towed. It started working again once it went into a warm garage. The mechanic spent many hours on it trying to duplicate the crapout - even drove it for a week, but no sign of problems. I can't wait to have it up in NH and it drops out again. He thought it was probably related to the security system module going intermittent, but who knows? The analyzer codes said very little.... sigh.

Oh, for the old days when I could quick fix my goat with a wrench, screwdriver and a few clip leads.

T

I bought the G5 becuase it was almost $2500 cheaper then the Chevy Cobalt
same body same drive train. The G5 had more extras.
Last year they were just trying to clear out the stock. Got a 60Kmile warantee. 

'66 Chevy 3/4T P/U w/ 327, 4-spd, 4.11 posi; '49 Dodge 1T Power Wagon; '56 Willys CJ-5; '68 Camaro w/ factory 230 CID I-6 and 3-spd with Hurst shifter (also factory). The Camaro ended up with a quite highly modified 250 CID I-6 that performed 'rather well'. <G>

noteworthy cars that I wish I still had:
'53 Chevy 235 six with 3/4 race Wolverine cam, home made "ram" manifold with Carter WCFB 4 barrel, home brew split manifold dual exhaust, milled head with oversize valves, turned down fly wheel w/ truck clutch, etc etc blew the heck out of the old "torque-tube" drive shaft/rear end...went to newer open type......used to go lookin for Ford Flat Heads and embarass 'em. '62 Chevy 2DHT with 327-300 4 speed...replaced junk shifter w/ a Hurst, posi rear end.  That car was a factory hot rod...used to go lookin fer goats...sometimes even beat 'em. 

73,  Jack, W9GT

'61/62 good years. Some guys ran 348s and 409s
I wish I still had my '65 Tempest and '74 firebird with the small back window.
I loved pulling the front wheels off the ground with the Tempest (sleeper)

Parts availability should not be an issue as all the major running gear (i.e wear item) is shared across other GM lines via powertrain division of GM so there are plenty of non-discontinued lines using those parts.  The same is true of chassis/suspension/steering components.  Aftermarket support has always been strong also.

I definitely envied the kids with the Pontiac GTO's back in the 60's. They always looked cooler as they rumbled through the local Friendly's parking lot. My '64 Chevy Super Sport convertible with the rear-end lifted, wide tires, and glass packs just couldn't rumble as impressively with that little 283 block.

The one I'd like to have back though, is my 1969 Kaiser CJ5 Jeep with the Dauntless 225 CID Buick V6 and overdrive. That thing had torque that approached tank-like capabilities on hills and when on the highway in overdrive, it actually got respectable gas mileage in spite of being as aerodynamic as a brick. It always went where it was pointed, however, on the highway with its over-sized tires, it would sometime skip a little and point in directions that required immediate course corrections. It was always lots of fun to drive!

R.I.P. Pontiac...

None.  Every car that I have ever owned I drove until it collapsed into a pile of rust and dust, like the wonderful one-hoss shay (http://www.legallanguage.com/resources/poems/onehossshay/).

All Pontiacs go to Heaven.

Cars? - They were used up when I was done, most of them. I have never owned a car I did not like.

1970 Delta 88 /455
1964 Plymouth Fury II /318
1970 Oldsmobile Cutlass SX /455
1970 pontiac GTO /400 (162MPH)
1974 Pontiac Ventura /350
1970 Buick  - same as like a Chevelle. /455 Olds powered.
1972 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme  /350
1968 Chevrolet 3/4 ton bread truck
1970 GMC 1 ton bread truck with swapped 307 V8, 4speed, and 3.73 rear.
1972 Ford Pinto /2.0L (180HP@8000RPM)
1986 Ford  - don't recall, some little 4-door econobox one notch above a Pinto-sized car.
1970 Pontiac Bonneville /455
1985 Chrysler 5th Avenue /318
1986 Chevrolet Caprice
1986 Suzuki Sprint (quit small cars after being hit by Caddillac in this)
1996 Chevrolet 1-ton extended cargo van
2004 Ford Crown Victoria - traded for Chevy 2006 pickup truck
1968 Kaiser Jeep M35A2 6x6 /White Multifuel
1970 Kaiser M818 6x6 /Cummins 800 CID NHC250

I prefer large dependable vehicles with large engines, and the older the better. Work requires I have a "new" car so I got the Crown Vic, then  pickup because the trunk was always too full for the bodies. I hate dangerous small cars and will never own one again.

I had a '70 Tempest with a 250 CI 6-banger. Someone must have pulled the overhead cam job out before I got it. The damn thing used to eat the timing gear on the bottom of the distributor.

Raunchiac OHC 6 was just basically a 250 cid Chebby block with the "accessories" bolted on to it. It was still a pretty neat engine. There are very few left in existance, gotten to be quite rare. One of the things that killed in-line 6s in favor of V-6s was that it was really difficult to maintain a good dynamic balance at high speed with that long 7-main bering crankshaft.

The car I wished I still had was a 1958 Impala convertible, it was also a rare color "Glen Green".   I saw a 1958 Impla hardtop recently at a car show that was the same color.   I talked with the owner and he said many doubted it was an original color.    He was surprised  that I knew the color.    He had the original paperwork.    That car I had was mostly rust when I sold it for $150.

The only car I wish I still had was my 67 Olds 442 which was stolen in 1968 only 2 months after I purchased it from a friend who was going in the Army. I bought a Triumph TR-250 new to replace it and that was the worst car I ever owned but it was fun to drive. The pictures are not of mine. My 442 was gold and TR was midnight blue.

P,
"then pickup because the trunk was always too full for the bodies "

If you had an industrial meat grinder, your problem would have been solved. Wood chipers sometimes work, but they are hard to clean.


klc

Don,  your comment about VW parts being made somewhat differently for each model year is not entirely accurate, although I certainly do not doubt your specific experience with your Karmann-Ghia. As the owner and enthusiast of a 1957 VW Beetle for the past 32 years, I am quite familiar with these cars and their history. I also realize my car is literally the polar opposite of the muscle cars being discussed in this and another current thread here on the board. Not to worry; I'm currently looking to purchase a small-block 1967 Corvette.

VW also used the addage known as "progressive refinement", a term, no doubt, their marketing people dreamed up, to promote the perception that the appearance of the car would remain essentially unchanged over time, yet the overall design itself was being continously improved. To a certain extent this was true; I think in many cases, it was to reduce the production cost of the car.

VW tended to keep major assemblies or aspects of the vehicle, such as the engine, transmission, front end, body, interior, etc., largely unchanged for years, with only minor or subtle changes to the basic design over that particular assembly's production lifetime. For example, the classic 1100 CC 36 hp engine, introduced in very early 1954, and which is really credited with providing these cars with their near-legendary reliability (and I'm sure many here would disagree with this statement), remained basically unchanged until its discontinuation in late 1960. The 40 hp engine that replaced it in late 1960, was in production until late 1965, and also remained basically unchanged during its production run. Many of the component parts, when these major assemblies were changed after a number of years of production, were not backward compatible; for example, very few of the 36 and 40 hp engine parts were interchangeable. However, the overwhelming majority of the parts in a 1960 36 hp engine were identical to those found in the 1954 engine, and those that were not are invariably backward compatible. This was also true of the 40 hp, 50 hp, 53 hp,  and later engines.

Additionally, these cars tended to undergo major overall changes in certain key years, such as 1953 (deletion of the split rear window and introduction of the synchronized transmission; previously it was a crashbox), 1958 (overall body style upgrade, including the large rectangular rear window, new dashboard, etc.; 1961 (the new 40 hp engine and completely redesigned transmission/rear axle, with 1st gear now synchronized), 1968, and 1971 (introduction of the Super Beetle, which IMHO was a real POS). By the same token, there were years where the car was virtually unchanged from the preceding model year; the 1956 and 1957 cars are almost identical, with the major exception that the '57 had tubeless tires, and the 1958 and 1959 cars were nearly unchanged as well.

I have the factory spare parts book for all VW passenger cars from 1945 thru 1971, and it is quite amazing to see parts that are directly interchangeable (no change in part number or revision level) from the very early cars to those of much later production. And where possible, VW did maintain a policy of trying to provide backward compatibility for replacement parts.  VWs spare parts service and availability was always superb, with typical Teutonic efficiency and organization; you could always get any part for these cars at the dealer level, well up through the 1990s.

The faults with these cars are a whole different story,  and a discussion of this is probably better suited to another venue; unsafe, poor heat, short on creature comforts, the list goes on. The VW was a design from the mid-1930s, intended to provide the masses with an automobile that was to be inexpensive to purchase, operate, maintain, and to be reliable. Safety was not a consideration in the original concept and design. I think it met those design criteria.

Just my 2 cents.

73,

Bruce

Wish I still had?  Whenever I get nostalgic about the '57 Chevy, the '65 Olds Cutlass, whatever, like when I see one for sale, my wife reminds me of what they were really like -- broken a lot with lousy brakes and boat like handling.  So I guess the truthful answer is none or I'd go buy something.

Here's a pretty '60 Bonneville convertible for sale.  I liked the '61s better especially Venturas but this '60 sure is shiny and cheap.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1960-PONTIAC-BONNEVILLE-CONV-389-CID-TRI-POWER-ENGINE-/390257727452?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item5add2c57dc

I had a 4 door green '60 Catilina. One nice back seat.
My Dad gave it to me when I was 16.
points and plugs once a year.
I gave it to my brother and he gave it to our Cousin. Radiator blew at around 200K and cooked it.
1 timing chain a water pump and rebuild the starter and generator a couple times 2 sets of ball joints. I still have the jar of special flux my Dad used to repair a leak in the gas tank around '64.

I used to pine for my '84 vette.  Lousy year, with throttle body fuel injection, with the injectors located OVER the butterfly throttle valves!  First year of the C-4 body style Manual/electric overdrive which made a horrific THUMP when used.  All digital dash board that was so bright I thought about rigging up some sort of heads up display on the windshield.

Conversely I owned a 67 VW Bug that just wouldn't die.  I sank it in a small pond (drunk GI's sometimes do silly things).  We hauled it out with a truck and towed it down the road, popping the clutch out and it started after about a mile or so, drove it home.

Now we've got the '73 vette convertible so it's all good.

I still have the car i got my driver's license with..........1968 firebird...........

very nice!
A friend built one with vet side pipes years ago. How about a picture

I dont have the one I got my drivers lisence with, but I do still have the one I drove in my senior year of high school 38 years ago.

Bruce,
   When I was back in school one of my mid term papers was the history of VW from the start to finish including a chapter on hitler and his role. I cant think of where that paper is now but it would be fun to find it and have a read.  I got full credit and spent alot of time on it.    At the time I had just finished my 1956 oval delux VW.  I wish I never sold the car. It was one of my biggest mistakes in life.  I lived with my parents at the time and they flat out insisted it go. I won first place in the coors light bug jamboree in anahiem with the car and was very proud of it. However, It was a constant source of trouble and hassle from the police.  I was pulled over at least 2 times a week in that car. I had built a classic California style VW and it sat low, Made lots of noise and had a very bright paint scheme.

As for pontiac, I am not suprised.  They have not made a single desirable car in many years.  The only one that comes to mind is the Solstice GTP that my mom drives, But that is not really a pontiac. Its an opel with a pontiac badge.  Growing up my dad had a 1969 firebird convertable.  Fully restored to 100% original condition.  My mom could not Drive the thing as this model came with no Power steering, no power brakes, windows, logs ect..  ALL manual and lightweight. Should could not get that clutch to the floor and shift that 4 speed and as a result, Just hated the car.

C

Hi Clark,

Nice to hear of your 1956 project VW!

They are very fun cars to drive, and as you know, there is a large contingent nowadays of collectors of these cars, including the Microbus, Karmann-Ghia, and pre-1968 Beetle models. The pre-1968 Microbus DeLuxe models with the full canvas sunroof are probably the most collectible VW vehicles, as there are so few survivors due to chronic rust issues, etc. Next in line are the pre-1968 Beetle models, with the split and oval rear window models leading the pack, followed by the 1958 and up cars.

Probably the standard for reading about VW history is the book, "Small Wonder". I have no idea if it is still in print, and I seem the remember the first edition came out in the late '60s.

I would like to see the paper you had written on the history of these cars, should you ever locate it.

VWs always evoked raw emotions in people; either you loved them or you hated them. Not much in between.

73,

Bruce

A couple of vehicles actually.

My first car, a 64 VW beetle. Got my first unspeakable. Basic transportation.
a 68 Camaro w/ 396.  Got rid of it back in the 70s when the oil embargo was in full swing. When I see what these go for on EBay I kick myself.
An '85 Ford LTD LX w/ 302. It was a special edition. Not many made. All black and looked dangerous. Somewhat unique.

Well with 14 active registrations, I have managed to keep or get back a lot of my favorite rides.. The one that got away and I have little hope of ever finding another was a 68 Camaro Rally Sport with a true Z28 suspension package.   While the meat of my collection is centered around Model T's,  Jeeps and Harley's , Here is a picture of what my wife of 4 weeks brought home today..  It was something she has wanted for a while, she found it, made here own deal and surprised me about noontime today when she pulled in with it!   Now I need to find some vintage mobile gear (like NE1S has in his Falcon) for this 62 Comet.. (The Falcon's alter Ego) - Steve W1TAV