The AM Forum

food for thought...

I thought I heard recently that they were also looking into EMC related causes.
It's easy for us as hams to make the next logical leap and picture in our minds the
RF spewing from cell towers or that 18 wheeler with the biiiig leeenyar as having something to do with
a Toyota's sudden acceleration problem.  Especially when it appears so randomly and intermittent.  
We all know how much a PITA RFI issues can be.
Hope they nail this problem -and it's root cause -as both my elderly parents and my inlaws both have late model Toyotas.
Of course this was their first foray into buying an import because of Toyota's great reliability/reputation.
 >:(

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/24/business/global/24toyota.html?bl

I don't have a Toyota, so I'm not claiming to know anything about their problems.  I do, however, know that I have noticed problems while having the cruise control activated in Chrysler minivans.  The vehicle would accelerate when I keyed a 100 Watt mobile HF transceiver.  It seems logical to assume that such problems could be experienced when in close proximity of other RF sources such as broadcast stations or other vehicles with big CB leenyurs, etc.  The problem was never so serious that it would lead to loss of control...only gradual acceleration when the xmtr was keyed.

Who knows..we could be seeing some wierd effects on vehicle electronics from any number of environmental factors.  That is a pretty tough environment for any electronic control system.  Seems like all such systems should have "fail safe" modes and revert to manual control in the event of malfunctions.

73,  Jack, W9GT

Hams are increasingly wimping out and staying off the air because of consumer devices that (mal)function like radio receivers when they are not supposed to.  We have become paranoid about getting into telephones, stereos and computer speakers. We are even scared to set up a station and get on the air because somebody might think our antennas are ugly. Thanks to pseudo-science and the FCC, there is public concern about possible adverse health effects from the (non-ionising) rf radiation from our stations. "Stealth" antennas are becoming more and more the norm, even in secluded rural areas.

So now what, will hams feel additional pressure to stay off the air because our signals might trigger automobile malfunctions?

 ::)   ::)

Ya isn't gonna get me into a "drive by wire" car any time soon.

I worry about "fly by wire" planes as well.

5 redundant computers (in a plane - or is that the shuttle?) are all well and good, but NOT when the failure mode is identical for all 5 and they get hit with the same thing that triggers the malfunction!!

So, the alternator dies, the battery dies and you cant steer or stop the car??

Don't know if the radio report was accurate but a woman apparently testified before Congress that her Toyota sped up to over 100mph and she couldn't stop it even by applying the parking brake??

Say WHAT? It can't be turned off with the KEY?? How about slamming it into reverse?? No??

You can keep that stuff... me like metal connections between the parts, key's that kill the power, etc...

                         _-_-bear

The bottom line is that they (Toyota) still do NOT know WTF is causing the problem.  The "fixes" they have come up with such as overiding the accelerator with brake commands are bandaids.   No root cause discovered yet.
They just started looking at the electronics.   Flaky things do indeed happen in electronics, especially in the prescence of an ESD event etc.  i.e. "Latch Up"  ....ask an MIL HCI lab about the effects of radiation on electronics.  Maybe they will never find the cause,
but I sure hope they do.....and they have to do better than floormats.

http://focus.ti.com/lit/an/slya014a/slya014a.pdf

They have my sympathy.  99% of my radio malfunctions are intermittent, and I know from experience that those are the worst kind of problem to troubleshoot.  Just when you are sure you have finally solved the issue, it unexpectedly reappears at the most inopportune moment.

I'm probably going to get flamed but I love to see Toyota having problems. I am a Detroit auto worker and proud of it. Buy American and keep Americans working.

73 N8QPC

The USN uses a fly by wire system on the VA class submarine. It has 4/3/2 redundant system. Not sure how aircraft distribute their onboard systems, but the VA class subs distribute the various systems over the entire length of the ship. Prior to system acceptance by the USN it was subjected to every EMI condition thrown at it.  All types of RF, noise, EMI were 'thrown' at it.  We had a couple of issues to overcome during development and they were shielding issues for certain sensors and cablining and how they were interfaced to the system.  But for the most part the system is stable.  We never saw an instance were a condition would cause a control surface go uncontrollable.

Maybe Toyota has an EMI issue.  I doubt it though.  One news report states an automotive engineering professor being able to replicate the acceleration issue by altering certain conditions via the software and hardware.

I would pause before I believed the good professor.  A lot of things can be made to happen in a lab environment that aren't realistic in the field.  I just haven't heard enough about his "replication" to know if it is a legitimate demo or someone grabbing 15 minutes of fame.

One thing though, if he is right Toyota is in for a rough ride.

I wonder if the piss-poor drivers training has some partial blame here as well.  As flight crew, we were trained in how to handle most emergencies, and various unlikely senarios were always discussed in "Hanger Flying" sessions. (saved my butt once too, but that's another story).

How many people are actually taught to kill the ignition in a run-away vehicle?  How many have ever actually even heard that?  Dropping the tranny into neutral would also work, letting you keep the power stearing and brakes as well, until the engine self-destructed running full bore no load. 

I've taught my two boys to drive and emergency actions (hard braking with no anti-skid, steering into skids, swerves etc.) were covered in a huge empty parking lot. I never thought to address runaways, and I thought I was pretty thorough. 

I do the skid work because four teenagers were killed a quarter mile from here when the driver panicked, locked up the wheels and slid straight into a solitary pine.  If she'd have let up a bit, she'd have been able to miss the tree and have more room to stop, or atleast have slowed down a lot more before impact with the next set of much smaller trees.

Never underestimate the human factor, or trial lawyers.

Back in the 1980s Audi had "Sudden Acceleration" on the 5000 series, complete with a full smear campaign on 60 Minutes.

One little fix, the invention of a clever German, and now standard on almost all cars with an automatic transmissions, the brake pedal interlock, cured the problem overnight.

Yes, people were stepping on the accelerator pedal rather than the brake.
Heartrending to tell someone who just ran over a family member, but that was the simple truth!

Yes, cars are electronic, throttles are electronic, they have been so in Euro cars for over a decade.
Nary a problem.
In fact, the cars are safer.

People are afraid of that which they do not know.
And the news media lives and thrives on fear mongering.
Take a look at the lengths the new media was going to frame Audi -->> http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/in-defense-of-the-audi-5000/

I'd be buying Toyota stock all the way to the bank!
I may yet my Florida Keys retirement home this decade.  ;)

These congressional Toyota hearings remind me of the old Soviet Show Trials.

GM is government owned now, just like in the old USSR Gorky Automobile Factory (Volga).

The government is simply attempting to damage their competition via this show trial. 

Toyota is being singled out for its recent recall of nearly 650,000 cars. Ford recalled more than 4 million vehicles last year and was not subjected to a Congressional Hearing (UAW = big political donor).

Grow up & do the math.

This might be a good time to buy one.  Sales will be down till this blows over, so dealers might be willing to cut good deals.  It's already a buyer's market as it is.  My daughter's boyfriend just bought a Subaru Outback and got 9K knocked off the price because it had 4000 miles on it.

Regardless of what root cause (or causes) is found or not found there will be some changes across the industry but it probably won't be pleasing to most owners as companies are forced to make products boringly idiot proof.  

The electronic key system, as utilized in some of the Toyota vehicles, that requires the owner to press for 3 seconds does not sound like a great idea.  Three seconds is a long time during an emergency-especially when it requires one hand to be dedicated to that sole function.   But a standard key switch that would allow the user to turn the key to the lock position possibly locking the steering would be as bad or worse in a panic situation.

The various "talking head experts" provide a good example of the lack of knowledge.  One suggested that the vehicle be shifted into park.  I believe most modern "auto magic" transmissions have numerous self protection systems built in and probably will not allow the park pawl to be engaged at speed.  Even if it did there would probably be momentary carnage followed by even more excitement if mechanical lockup of the drive train was allowed.  Although the park pawl itself may still be mechanically engaged on a lot of autos, if so it is the only non-electronically selected position.  

Assuming the command to shift to neutral is "recognized and allowed" during a glitch this would seem to be the best solution to a runaway engine situation.  But transmission control systems are about as electronically sophisticated and complex as the engine itself.  For example, the Allison automatic in my pickup works with the engine in cold warm up mode while in Park so that the transmission is used to load the engine even though the output shaft is still locked in park while engine RPM ramps up to bring everything to operating temperature more rapidly.   Depressing the brake to shift out of park automatically reduces the engine RPM and forward or reverse ranges cannot be selected until it returns to idle.  Other protections prevent manually selecting an inappropriate range while in motion.  On downgrades cruise control commands converter lockup and downshifts as necessary to prevent vehicle speed from increasing.  All of these features work quite well but certainly provide more opportunity for issues and customer misuse.  

Every vehicle I have had for many years has used "drive by wire" and the only issue I had when I bought the first one (a 95 pickup) was getting used to accelerating when cruise was engaged.  Since the pedal stays in the "neutral" position while cruise is operating you have to press a bit to pick up speed when at cruising speed.  My CTS is electronically complex but I really like the convenience and functionality it provides.  I like pressing a remote start key and being able to go out to a car with the heated seats on and climate control in operation; I don't want to go back to the days of carburetors and "almost automatic" chokes, vacuum operated windshield wipers, and leather clutches :)

Bruce's example of the Audi issue is excellent and the only thing Audi could be faulted for is perhaps pedal size and placement.  I drove a couple of Audi's of that era without running into anything :)  but a major part of product risk management is predicting  not how George Genius will use the product but how Dudley Dumbass will behave.

I was telling my boss that we should get a poster of a smashed toyota and put a few words below the picture. "Qualification by Similarity"

Old Soldiers Maxim:

The smarter your equipment gets, the more ways it can kill you...

Remember the Airbus at the French (Paris?) airshow that decided it was landing and not going around?  The flight crew and airplane had an arguement, the airplane won, and destroyed itself in the trees at the end of the runway.

Murphyism 107:
Never trust a machine that is smarter than you are.

Make something idiot proof and only idiots will use it.

Steve said :
I think the axiom is "Nothing is foolproof......because fools are so ingenious!"

LOL. Much better!

My 2002 F-250 Diesel has a 100% drive by wire throttle system. There is no mechanical connection whatsoever to the engine. That's almost 10 year old technology.

The accelerator pedal is nothing more than a rheostat attached to a spring.
On one occasion, I took it to a dealer for a warranty repair- The accelerator rheostat got 'scratchy', causing hesitation when I mashed the pedal to the floor. Fixed right away. Hasn't been an issue in the intervening 150,000 miles.

Here's where Toyota screwed up, IMO: Their brake pedal should override whatever commands the gas pedal might have issued. Wherever the engine thought the throttle was, a braking command should shut down the engine to idle. Just like killing cruise control. Prime directive: Hit the brake, engine drops to idle. Period. That simple.

No one does a 'brake torque' takeoff these days- Not in a Toyota, anyway. Not like my '69 Chevy, LOL.

What a bunch of idjits.

There have been 19 fatal accidents linked to faulty  Toyota gas pedals and floor mats over the last decade. That's fewer than 2 each year or 0.005% of America’s 40,000 annual fatal car crashes.

As David Champion, director of automobile testing for Consumer Reports, recently said :

"I find it a little odd that we're going to have a Congressional hearing to look at those two deaths out of 40,000...  you have to look at death rates in safety terms rationally."

Please do the math guys & look behind the headlines.

I had a Ford minivan go into full throttle mode. It was one of the older Winstar RWD vans and it decided to go WFO while easing up to a parking spot. You should have seen the skid marks left by the locked up front brakes. Only quick action on the key killed the motor and stopped the event. This happened while my wife was driving--she is a smart gal. Needless to say it scared everone involved. I called Ford headquarters and worked my way through a labyrinth of techs & execs. I was very cordial and asked them what I should do, and if they wanted to investigate. I stressed that I was just trying to give them a heads up, my wife and kids were OK, and I did not want to speak to an attorney. They totally stonewalled and pretty much told me I was FOS. I was totally incredulous that they didn't even want to look at it. They said it was impossible, never happens, must have hit the throttle etc. I surmised it might have something to do with the cruise control so I unplugged it. Six months later there is a big deal on TV about the syndrome. It turns out that water was leaking into the circuit boards on the cruise control, causing them to go nuts. I will of course never own another Ford. I hate liars.

Welk, you got all of us there.  ;D

We had tarrif wars in the 30's.  Helped start and extend the depression.

Look for sanctimonious "Safety Reg" wars in the 10's, or "tainted beef wars,"...you name it.

  - and as mentioned coupled with alarmist media, lawyers, innumerical politicians and just about everyone that doesn't have an inkling of statstics or elementary analysis.

The Toyota accelerator is US made? The TV news displayed a quick 3 sec of the name of the company.

Is Toyota using a mechanical linkage? The news reports are never clear on this.

Electronic accelerators have been around a very long time. I don't think it's a rehostat or volume control type of mechanism. That would be extremely unreliable! I'm guessing something like a mouse. A little wheel and an LED and photosensitive device to detect motion and direction of the wheel. Take a mouse apart and you will see what I'm lamely trying to describe.

RFI may definitely be an issue!!! With the unregulated CB radio and the idiots out there radiating 5 KW of RF.
Auto electronics were supposed to handle at least 100 W of an RF environement, because of amateur radio and police. If a module was damaged by excessive RF, it became your charge for a new one. Usually $1500.

If these are software glitches, then it goes along with the same denial and delay we have to get Kenwood to make changes to software glitches for their commercial two-way radio products. THEY know of the problems and glitches but wont' get off their arses and send out any patches or revisions, unless the comm shops create an endless uproar.

Fred

These things can happen with purely mechanical systems.    When I was 16 (a long time ago) my parents
had a 1958 Chevrolet Impala convertible.   One time, after stopping at an intersection on a hill, I started up and the accelerator pedal floored itself and the car took off.    The brakes were stronger than the engine and after putting on the brakes the engine died down and the accelerator pedal went back to the idle position.     The problem was that an engine mount had broken.    Under load, the engine lifted up and pulled the accelerator linkage to the floor.   It was scary the first time but I got used to it.

Fred,

A U.S. company is the supplier with the part made to Toyota specifications and I believe components (and probably assembly) are actually offshore in China.

About 15 years ago I was invited to watch the Covisint procurement system in action at a local automotive assembly plant.  This is a web based auction system that allows multiple suppliers to compete for provision of component parts over a multi-year window.   At that time, the products needed were announced and a number of suppliers sign up to participate and an auction start time is set.  Once a supplier entered a bid this started a 5 minute window for another supplier to enter a lower bid and once this bid was entered another 5 minute period was started.  This process continues until no supplier is willing to go lower.  The buyer can see the identity of the bidders but bidder identity is not disclosed to other bidders.  As you can imagine, this provides good cost savings for the assembly plant but the potential impact on quality is obvious with suppliers struggling to undercut each others' pricing.  This competition has always occurred but going to electronic real time bidding brings it to a new level.

I haven't investigated what is being used currently but the first electronic throttle I came across was in my '95 GMC diesel pickup and I was curious how the technology worked.  At least at that time the sensor consisted of three separate resistance elements.  As the accelerator was moved two would increase (or decrease) in resistance while the third went in the opposite direction.  The controller compared the three readings to its built in table and if the three readings did not agree upon position then an error would be declared.  I never experienced any problems with the pedal assembly but I recall reading about a few being replaced due to wear.  I am a heavy user of cruise control then and today since most of my commute occurs on country roads with little traffic and no stop signs or lights so the sensor would not have much wear in my type of usage.

One thing I noticed right away is much smoother cruise control operation with the electronic throttle control; there is insignificant overshoot or loss of speed in hilly terrain.  The one problem I found is that a lot of cars tend to lose a bit of speed on uphill with cruise on and I found the pickup getting closer than I liked.  Worse still are those folks on highways who should be required to have and use cruise control as they vary speed +/- 10 mph randomly within a 1 mile stretch of interstate.  I have never been seasick but I started feeling some motion sickness riding with one of my wife's relatives who varies speed continuously in a very annoying fashion.  I imagine she is one of those drivers who gets far under the EPA rated mileage in her car.

Yeah, I know the type.
When first learning to drive, I steered by approximation. turn a little, hmmm, not enough as the car goes tangent, steer a little more, straight for a way, turn the wheel some more....   

A real jerky turn.

I guess, many drive that way in both speed and steering control.
Wonder if their lives _{and other moves} are as jerky?  ;D

Anyone ever read Tom Clancy's  "Debt of Honor" ?

Terry,
Toyota is standing in fromt of congress getting reamed because they tried to BS the public that they had a mat problem. Ford had their ream job back around 2000 when SUVs flipped over due to crappy tires.

Or do you prefer a rubber stamp government?

The difference is that Congress was not in the car business in 2000. It's a horrible conflict of interest. Further Congress knows their approval rating is probably the lowest ever. They are grand standing in hopes of improving their image. More hype over substance.

Not to mention that the tires were underinflated, not the Fords.

wheel base was too small making it unstable. Tires were only part of the problem.
Small wheel base required a better tire. A friend got a free set of michelins for his 2000 explorer

Steve said:
Boy, aint that the truth!!!

Listening to the woman from TN give her testimony, she said the cruise control light came on at the same time as the car accellerated.  She either shut it off or tried to with no affect.  Same for the transmission.

Toyota states there is no way their problems are electronic.  Seems the impossible may have happened.

~ps

Because no one is responsible, large corporations, almost all of them, will feed you a line when you complain about their product or service.

Microsoft is a far worse offender compared to any car company.

Our government has been involved in the automobile, aviation, agricultural, energy, name your industry since the beginning of any of those industries.  This shows up in agency appointments, trade rules and regulations, congressional actions, political speeches, and other actions. 

I would agree there is a potential conflict of interest here but there is a potential conflict of interest in every decision/action our government takes or does not take no matter the industry, region, state, interest group, socio-economic group, etc.  I would assert that pretty much every decision made in the government is based upon a number of conflicting interests so it is pretty disingenuous to choose any particular industry as the whipping boy du jour.

The opportunity to politicize an event like this is welcomed by the congress critters but, conspiracy theory aside congress doesn't need investment in the auto industry to spawn an event like such as we have watched.

For curiosity, do we have the same level of anger over some of the sweetheart deals given the aviation industry through defense appropriations?

Our government never owned an automobile company. This is a clear conflict of interest. No conspiracy theories needed.

So what would you have the government do different?

Don't worry Toyota only a few people died. Thins out the excess population.

Sweetheart aviation deals. Maybe we should outsource that to China and save some money. Sorry I worked on some of those  planes and it is American pride and quality at its best.

Easy. Get out of the automobile business, quit the grandstanding and investigate properly. Utilizing the deaths of people to get reelected is beyond disgusting.

Aren't you glad you aren't an engineer at Toyota in the engine control department?

Ask me sometime about the hair that locked a Mustang's brakes. ;D

what do you expect from a band of crooks who waste our money and reward those who eliminate jobs.
BTW. the W.H.O. considers the US #43 in health care if you watched the big grandstand show yesterday.
What is it if you are a member of congress, $49 a month for health care till you die

To put things in perspective here, the old 1970's Ford Pinto gas tank fiasco, caused 27 deaths.

Toyota's accelerator glitch is 39 deaths (and counting?)  and over 300 injuries.

If this was an airplane, the FAA would ground it. :o


And yeah on the old Health care debate, Only the people with great insurance have the attitude "I got mine, too bad for you"
They want staus quo, which does not solve anything. 

LOL. It's not an airplane. Comparisons to such are bogus.

I'll bet you aren't interested in giving up your house just because someone else doesn't have one. But that doesn't solve the problem.   :P

Ignoring the deaths of people in order to get reelected is also disgusting.

It's clear you did not read and comprehend what I wrote.

Would you clarify that assertion?
 ;D

About 40,000 Americans are killed ANNUALLY by automobiles.  That number could be reduced significantly with things like higher safety standards on autos, motor governors, speed limit enforcement, more strict licensing and relicensing requirements, etc.
We will never hear of any of these things because they are politically unpopular, even though they would save thousands of lives annually.   Simple raising the minimum drivers age to 18 or 21 and requireing a real drivers training and certification program would significantly reduce the death toll.

 In the year 2008, automotive collisions killed 37,261 people in the United States.  That’s 102 a day; 717 a week; 3,105 a month. And 2008 was no anomaly: Since World War II, more than 2 million individuals have perished in U.S. car crashes.

► In a nation that likes the sound of “no child left behind,” car crashes have long ranked as the #1 cause of death for every single age-year from 3 through 21.

► In typical years, the number of people “severely or critically” injured, but not killed, in U.S. car crashes surpasses the number killed.


This toyota thing is really just a policitcal circus to 1) make us all feel better about a Congress with a phenominally low approval rating, and 2) boost the now Government Run Detroit auto builders.

Remember the Politician has two things on his mind - Re-election, and Money. (not necessarily in that order).  That one reason why you will never see any real, common sense, helpful legislation from Wash no mater WHO is in charge.  The other is that politicians have no clue about how actually do anything, and the few who do are busy manipulating the system to get  (Re-election, and Money).

ROGER thanks....interesting read on accelerator design...........
I agree that consumer type electronics can get really glitchy coz its the watered down version of the real thing they use in airplanes and space craft. Planes crash because humans misunderstand what the computer is trying to do and the end is that people die when the human disables the computer control.
Fred

The number of traffic deaths annually in the US approaches the total number of US troops killed in all the years of Viet Nam combined.

If you or I created a new product, put it on the market, and the first year it resulted in the deaths of 40,000 people nationwide, not only would there be protests and demands for lynching; members of Congress would fight each other to be the first to introduce "legislation", the product would be pulled and we, along with the rest of the management of our company, would be facing long prison terms.

But the public blithely accepts 40,000 highway deaths per year.  It will always happen to the "other fellow".

Little attention is paid until it happens to someone we know or to a family member.

And that's exactly what most politicians do All the time.

Consider just two elements of highway safety that contribute to thousands and thousands of highway deaths annually (not the statistically insignificant two per year directly linked to the Toyota accelerator/floor mat issue)  and consider how these same circus performing politicians voted on these issues:

1)CAFE Standards, which, since written into law in 1975 are estimated to be responsible for the deaths of 7700 people for every mpg gained (1).

2) Speed limits, which when raised from 55 to 65 & higher on the nations interstates caused "deaths on rural interstates to increase 25-30 percent when states began increasing speed limts in 1987.  In 1989, about two-thirds of this increase or  19 percent was attributed to increased speed, the rest to increased travel" (2)

So, as you see, no pol gives a twit about your safety.

As  Ed, KB1HYS correctly states, "This Toyota thing is really just a political circus to 1) make us all feel better about a Congress with a phenomenally low approval rating, and 2) boost the now Government Run Detroit auto builders.

Remember the Politician has two things on his mind - Re-election, and Money"









(1) James R. Healey, "Death by the Gallon: Push for Better Mileage Raises Death Tolls," USA TODAY , Special Reprint Edition, reprinted from MONEY , July 2, 1999; based on previously unpublished fatality statistics from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration and the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety.

(2) Baum, H.M.; Wells, J.K.; and Lund, A.K. 1991. The fatality consequences of the 65 mph speed limits, 1989. Journal of Safety Research 22:171-77.

Ever drive I-80 across Nebraska?

I just never want the double-nickel speed limit to return.

For sure. Don't think the trail lawyers aren't feeding the media for more "disclosures."   :-X

Personally, I like the feel of a little power surge in my V8 TrailBlazer when Modulatin' with my AM rig. ;D :o

Phil - AC0OB

Neither do I. Neither do most people I know. I proudly fly the Gadsden flag. 

I just wanted to point out that the recent Toyota Show Trial had nothing whatever to do with real, significant, highway safety and that the inquisitors conducting the show trial had other (IMO obvious and transparent) motives.

Mark Twain and Will Rogers observed and commented on the exact same things a century or more ago.
Hasn't changed since.

Watching how they make sausage is also revealing..

Listen across the band to 75m SSB any evening.  Assume these people represent a cross-section of the US adult population. Are you really comfortable putting your life in the hands of hundreds of average Joe Bloes at the controls of potentially lethal 3000-6000 lb machines, every day?

I agree. The common sense factor seems to decrease every generation, I suspect along with the general IQ.
Our tax dollars subsidize the dysfunctional, who breed and breed, while those who do try to contribute have
to actually work for a living and limit their family size. Those who excel pay a disproportionate share of the tax burden, what can only be called an penalty on achievement. The lack of personal reasonability is astounding, the sheepeople have been indoctrinated to look to the government
to solve their problems. Clear definition of insanity!

Here ya go, Don..From my mis-spent college days.

Demagogue: "One who will preach doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he knows to be idiots."
H. L. Mencken

Little boys, with little minds, with little toys, and no clues.

Phil - AC0OB

Bad assumption. They don't come close to a real cross-section of the population.

I always thought that hams, in general, were more intelligent and motivated than the general population. More than just a cross-section.

If that's true, then we really are in a heap of trouble.

Well stated, Bruce! I agree wholeheartedly. And Don makes a good point, too.

It is just unfortunate that to take such a position using a venue such as the mass media is considered politically incorrect. Politicians are well aware of this. Their greatest fear is that the truth hurts their chances for reelection.

73,

Bruce

HUZ, sad but true, it gets a lot worse out there in the flat lands.

40,000 deaths a year cannot be blamed solely on the automobile itself.  I would submit that of that 40,000/yr., of those that are automobile related are probably in a low percent range or human/engineering error. The vast majority would be driver/end user error.

I bet a large number of the deaths are caused by someone else doing stupid moves.

I would agree to that!

Frank, you've been down rt 85 many a times. I've seen a lot of stupid stuff on the route.  I'm sure you have too. And you're aware of its reputation.

Even the route I live off of is nuts.  I've been passed on the left by nit-wits when trying to make a left turn into my street. It's a 2 lane secondary with a double yellow line.  

I got clobbered in that intersection back in 2001 trying to turn left, result, a 4 car accident. Totaled my vehicle and sent 2 of us to the ER, yours truly included.  Driver that caused it was not paying attention, fiddling with a cell phone.

been going up and down 85 for 59 years.
Then there was the old RT2
The worst I ever saw was a kid against a pole when someone passing ran him off the road. The Sunday morons from the city come down our way and trash the state park. Glad they doubled the feas this year.

AM'ers are special though, right?  ;D

73,
ldb
K5WLF

I worked for a start up in the mid 1990s and spent a lot of time out at the old Chelsea Proving Grounds with a team putting in a robotic driver system on an automated durability track. This system became operational in 1997 but is not even acknowledged since The Germans took the technology and shut the robotic track down.

http://www.allpar.com/corporate/chelsea-proving-grounds.html

Anyway on the Proving Grounds they had a big RV full of the best HP equipment of the time, and amplifiers and EMC antennas that they could drive out to the track. This was like an RF Compliance lab on wheels. Basically they would blast the vehicle under test with RF at high levels and record the data with a logger. All car companies do this because they fear RF interference would cause an accident good buddy.

just be glad the test methods for airplane stuff is a tad tighter than cars.
I've heard of some real bogus test methods used for car computers.

My Father in Law has a friend who was 17 or 18 when he did the Batan Death March so can't feel too bad for Toyota. I hear he just published a book that I need to read. He faked his birth records to get in the service.

God Bless him.

My grandpa did the same to enlist in WWI.

There was an old man Arthur Locke who worked at our local Hooksett NH library for many years and he seemed to be a real handful. He published Kobe House POW #13 about three years before he passed away. I had no idea that he was a Bataan survivor.

Arthur Locke's "Kobe House P.O.W. No. 13" which relates his story from capture on Batann and ultimate rescue in Kobe. In Kobe the men were used as ships dock slave stevedores. Well written and very factual.

1945-10. 'KOBE HOUSE' POW CAMP SURVIVORS ON WAY HOME FROM JAPAN ON HMS FORMIDABLE. (DONOR: B. TAYLOR). Picture in public domain.

As a hardware engineer, I can assure you that it is a software issue.

Even if it isn't - blame software.

In Software Defined Radios - everything usually works but the software.

A business partner of my Dad's was a survivor of the Bataan Death March. He told his story one time at a church meeting, and wept as he was telling it. I was just a kid then and used to go to his house to swim in the pool with his kids. I asked him once to tell me more about it and he teared up as he said he didn't want to talk about it. I never asked again, and I still have a major problem feeling too damn sorry for Toyota.

73,
ldb
K5WLF

My wife's father's family spent most of WWII hiding in the jungles in Leyte, as her paternal grandfather was a minor official with the Land Transportation Office and got sideways of the occupying Japanese somehow.

My wife's aunt, remembering the horror and deprivation of the war, could never bring herself to buy a Japanese car.  Remembering how the Americans kicked the Japanese out, and her first taste of a Hershey's chocolate bar, til she quit driving she had an old Willys CJ-3, although she could afford just about any car she wanted.  She also had an old Zenith TV that she kept going by gosh and by golly.

She just died last week, and the stories she told of those days would curl your hair.

Forgive if you can, but never forget!

As the old saying goes: "F... me once shame on you, F... me twice shame on me!"

OR even better put: "He who forgets history is doomed to repeat it."

                                         The Slab Bacon  (I drive a Ford.)

Well stated on all points, Frank. Too bad many people harbor an undying grudge against others for perceived or actual wrongs committed against them. It will destroy you on the inside. There was a very great man who 2000 years ago strongly advocated forgiving your enemies.

That happens to be a classic quote from the early part of the 20th century. It was written by George Satayana, and went something like this:

"Those who forget the past are comdemned to relive it".

Truer words were never spoken.

And we have two Toyotas and love them.

73,

Bruce

I see GM has 1.2 million recalls for defective steering.

-wonder if they'll go before themselves for a congressional hearing?

-wonder if any media will even notice?

maybe the CEO and President of USA (CFO) ought to go before the Japanese to eat crow, hmmm?

I seem to remember when the head of a Japanese corporation would commit seppuku (or perhaps it was hari kiri) when under his watch, his company was responsible for some issue of egregious or significant negative impact, be it financial or otherwise. In the Japanese culture, it was the honorable thing to do, and the ultimate act of apology and demonstration of remorse to those who had been affected.

I don't think that is going to happen with Toyoda-san, President of the company.

73,

Bruce

Thatz wierd, Bruce. I actually had the same thought. It would go on to prove whether those "crocodile tears" were real or not. ;D ;D


Or even better yet................ As the Godfather said to Michael Corleone:

"Keepa you friends close, but keepa you enemies closer!"

My Daughter has a new G5 so I jumped on this first thing this morning. The problem is after 20 to 30K miles there have been a few cases where it becomes hard to steer the car but there is not a loss of control. So it looks like GM is not going to need to go to congress. Toilet-oder BSed the public for years on their problem. The floor mat excuse is a good one. One of the guys I work with can't even get his out of the car.
Unfree trade I bet there are only a few GM cars in Japan.

Yeah your right Frank.  Hi inport tariff on US cars and all that.  But since Japan and South Korea make comparable or better cars in fit, finish and value, our cars probably aren't desired much in the Orient, unless you're talkin' vintage Caddys, Ponies and Harlies.

Those get bid up over there like hot Collins'. ;D

My 1996 Pontiac still looks good and runs fine
My 88 truck ran fine until it was smashed in 2001
my 2001 silverado has 120K and has had no real work done on it
Still goes 5K on a quart of oil

My '93 Dodge Dakota (180K on it), in the shop today for a new thermostat and temp sensor. First time in the shop since I paid a grand for it five years ago. Only have put brakes and tires on it in 5 years. And regular oil changes.

An electric power steering pump???


And Japan...............We've got a deal for you. Remember that island you want the US to vacate?

Sho' nuff, the band-aid fixes are NOT working....
as another poster alluded to, the hardware guys will blame software, the software guys will blame
hardware, alot of you know that song and dance..........bottom line is that as of now, they don't have a clue to the root cause

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100304/ap_on_bi_ge/us_toyota_no_fix/print

Did auto manufacturers ban lead from solder as per Europes decree?  Can't wait for the tin whiskers in a couple of years.   Glad NASA told everybody to shove it and is still using leaded solder.  They have exspensive hardware and lives to worry about.

http://nepp.nasa.gov/whisker/background/index.htm

I heard on the news this morning. 15 people with the magic shim still have problems.

Heard dat too.
But I take most news with a grain of salt these days. 
a.) people taking much more notice now that their "ears are tuned".
b.) lawyers and money to be made.

If true, then will be tres interessant.

got to love digital, not. 

Take cellphones for example.  I didn't give up my analog phone until the phone company told me they would no longer support it on their system.  Went to a digital and granted they have a lot of features, most of them completely useless to me. In additon, the sound quality rots.  Either the audio is there, or it's not unlike analog where one could still hear another over the "static" and no aliasing when traffic is heavy. Point being, software is only as good as its design. 

Toyota is not capitulating to that, at least in public.

Whatever it's worth........MSNBC is reporting something about a blackbox in Toyotas

Fred

I'm with you on that. I sure miss my old analog bag phone. It sat on the doghouse in the van and with an antenna on the roof had a magnificent range. Yep, the signal level would drop and the S/N ratio would get crappy when I was out in the sticks so far I didn't get the Grand Ol' Opry 'til Thursday, but I could still talk and listen and communicate. Damn 3G iPhone...I love all the features, but when the digital signal level reaches the point where the unit goes into "F&#@ It Mode", I'm not talking to anybody but myself. It just disconnects. Newfangled ain't always better.

ldb
K5WLF

Posted: 03/04/2010 06:39:16 PM MST

Shirt happens...

----------------

ARLINGTON, Wash.—State troopers said a man is lucky to have only minor injuries when he crashed his car into a barn after his steering wheel popped off while driving. Trooper Keith Leary said the 59-year-old man was driving his 1978 Buick on Thursday afternoon on State Route 530 when his steering wheel came off, the car left the road, went down an embankment, up the other side, and crashed into a barn.

The man narrowly missed a power pole and several small barns with baby cows inside.

Rescuers said it's a miracle the man suffered only minor neck pain in the accident. The farm's owner said the car destroyed the farm's refrigeration and milking area and happened right as 140 cows were about to be milked.

Read more: http://www.denverpost.com/watercooler/ci_14515127#ixzz0hGuPn2UG

Interesting, if tin wiskers turns out to be the cause of Toiletota's troubles.  If so, expect cars by other manufacturers soon to follow.

In the 70's and 80's I wore out three Corollas and never had a major problem with any of them till they firally crapped out.  Always did my own repair work back then.  Actually, I did have one major problem: a cracked head on the 1500 CC overhead cam engine.  I went to a junkyard and found a replacement head. Just bought a new head gasket and slapped the replacement head into place without even disassembling and inspecting the valve assembly.  That was at 113k and drove the thing to something like 190k before it drew its last breath. It was running on 3 cylinders and finally wouldn't start so I sold it for $25, and I'll be damned if the guys who bought it didn't manage to get it started and drove it away.

I did get a recall notice on one.  The problem was with the automatic choke disintegrating from corrosion.  But by then I had already replaced the automatic choke with a homebrew manual choke made out of junk parts, and liked it much better than the automatic choke anyway. I tossed the recall notice.

I did a few quick searches yesterday, they (Toyota) and others are looking at everything from tin whiskers to Dc relays with no back emf protection discharge diodes.   The latter could cause transients which in turn could cause latch-ups, etc.   Still not sure if the auto manufacturers all went to lead free solder after (2006 ?), but I think they did.   If so, in a few years, this could be the dawn of a golden age for trial attorneys.

DC relays will drive solid state electronics crazy.   A few years ago I got my first modern HF transceiver, an IC-718.    I was keying the old linear with a 12V relay.    The Icom frequently would change bands after transmitting.    I thought it was defective.  I added a reverse diode across the coil and a series diode on the key line and that fixed the problem.    I would think Toyota engineers would be smart enough to use transient protection on their relays.  They could be underrated in PIV and fail.

You know what's really wrong????? Most designers and engineers are forgetting the basics of electronics and RF. It's turned out to be a rubber stamp world of assembly, cutting costs to bring those bonuses in,  and the output is shawdy products that have weird failure problems.

And Bill a 1978 car, needs maintenance performed that would be overlooked during normal service time. The integrity of the frame and structure and weird stuff like steering wheels coming loose. Prolly should be in the salvage yard.

My wife drives a 1997 Regal with 114,000 mi.......she was complaining about the steering wheel turning while the vehicle was stopped and while driving, the vehicle was wondering all over the road. I thought she was on drugs about the steering wheel turning on its own when stopped until I drove it one day. It was worth repairing, but cost $575..00 for a steering rack ASSY. I told her I NEVER had a car ever do that, but it can happen in these older vehicles with miles on them.

Fred

I friene was driving his VW bug, and the stearing wheel fell into his lap. He said that he had a brown moment untill he discovered that the cable was still conected and he could steer.

he got it fixed.


great off road car in mud; you and yer buddies can pick 'er up and move her when she sticks in the mud.
And you doen't even have to remove the empties to lighten the load.

klc

This professor from Carnegie Mellon has been doing some digging....
check out the missing diodes from the relay circuits on 2007 Camry's...

http://www.ece.cmu.edu/~raj/toyota.html

 ???

My first car was a 69 VW bug.  The steering gear failed and locked up the steering. I was traveling down a straight section of I-395 here in CT when the steering locked up. Fortunately it locked in just slightly to the right and in light traffic and I was able to pull the car over without crashing it.

The throttle motor is also inductive, and presumably is driven by a transistor.  If that transistor shorts, it could conceivably drive the throttle motor to the full open position.

I would guess that Toyota has a lot smarter engineers on staff than I, and that they've considered this situation.  However if they cheap out on the back EMF diodes, who knows....

The professor article shows that the Buick Lacrosse uses resistors across the relay coils.   He states that diodes would be better, but they shorten the life of the relays.   I can't see how suppressing microsecond duration pulses would shorten the life of relays.   The Toyota he checked out had no suppressors across the relay coils.

I've never seen a suppression diode take out a relay in 40 years.
I have seen a relay take out a driver when there is no suppression diode many times. An unsuppressed 28 volt realy can generate a 1KV pulse easily

Interesting article, but when I went to find the authors technical background I found...
http://www.ece.cmu.edu/~raj/

"# Co-Director, General Motors-Carnegie Mellon Vehicular Information Technology Collaborative Research Lab.
# Co-Director, General Motors-Carnegie Mellon Autonomous Driving Collaborative Research Lab."

Not that I'm questioning the integrity  of gentleman, but  Buick good, Toyota bad .....

 

It is very common in academe to be associated with various companies because that is often the only way to get access to data and needed research funding.  Most of us have taken industry dollars but research integrity is very important because once gone it is gone forever.

I think his findings are interesting and note that he is not claiming that this is the root cause of failure.

It is interesting timing for me since I just finished repairing an Icom IC-751 that had an issue with a relay driver.  Icom does use diodes across the coil and the one across this particular relay had a cold solder joint from the original wave solder.  It did last quite a few years before the relay driver transistor was damaged but in this rig there is a protective diode across every relay coil to prevent this problem.

I wonder why this paper http://energycommerce.house.gov/Press_111/20100223/Toyota.Electronic.Throttle.Control.Investigation.pdf  has been pretty much buried, in terms of discussion.

It was submitted as part of the recent congressional dogpile, but makes the case that the throttle input signals, if incorrect in certain situations, will not trigger a fault with the ECU.  It's also a poor design, since both signals track each other in slope, separated by .4V or so.  If they are shorted together, or one goes to +5V rail, the car goes to full throttle.  And the ECU doesn't know there's anything wrong.

Piss poor design.

"It did last quite a few years before the relay driver transistor was damaged but in this rig there is a protective diode across every relay coil to prevent this problem"

     Roger,

   The diode across the relay is fine for small relays, or for relays that don't switch high current loads.
When we have big relays, or relays that switch high current loads (especially DC), the speed of the relay to open up after being energized is dependent on the speed which the coil field decays. The L/R time constant comes to play here. If you use a diode the decay is pretty slow, and if the contacts slowly open while flowing high current, then contact wear or pitting is really bad. If the load is DC, then the situation is even worse since an arc may sustain as the relay contacts open.

   So in the case of automotive power relays it is important to 'thump' them both when energizing and de-energizing to insure quick open/close of the contacts. We also don't want to switch high current with the N/C contacts either since the spring force is lower than the N/O contact force with the coil energized. Sure we need to deal with the back EMF spikes, but using a diode is not always wise.

   The GM approach with a resistor across the coil is interesting. Maybe the relay driver is a bipolar transistor with a VCEO rating of 80 volts. If they size that resistor to the relay such that the back EMF spike is limited to say 50v, then the driver is OK, and the relay will quickly de-energize because the 'R' part of the L/R time constant just got much larger.

   The Toyota approach shows no diode or resistor across the relay coil. Is this bad? Fore sure the relay will be 'thumped' such that contact wear is not an issue. If the driver is a power fet, then the back emf spike will get absorbed by the fet when the VDS value is exceeded. Since the transient is brief, and FET's are immune to secondary breakdown, no harm is done.

   But what if Toyota uses unsurpressed relays, and biplolar drivers? More bad ???

Jim
WD5JKO

OK I see, yes a resistor will reverse the magnetic field but at the expense of a high voltage spike back at the driver. This means the driver will need suppression at the device and the conductor to the coil will radiate a nice wide band transient.
Relays are pretty expensive I bet a lot of auto. switching is solid state these days.
I also bet many of the little morors are brushless. There are a number of low voltage drivers out there that work very well. The IR IPS drivers are great at 28 VDC and take digital inputs. They have overcurrent and high temperature shutdown. Too slow for RF though.
Some bipolar transistors have a built in protection diode.

Hello,

Welp, there's absolutely not a thing to worry about...our Gov is involved very deeply in this..(I seen two guys quit and went to work for Tayoter)....They're on the scene and taking care of business man...  ;D

I feel so Safe on the roads now.....

73
Jack

Mostly from the Hartford CT driving academy!

Toyota fights back!!

"To prove their point, Toyota officials revved the engines of cars made by competitors, including a Subaru Forester and a Ford Fusion, by connecting a circuit rigged up to the wiring of the gas pedals."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100308/ap_on_bi_ge/us_toyota_recall_electronics

The many comments from the Yahoo link have some good input. Here is one:

"Toyota made one bad decision with their DBW (Drive by wire) design. They only have one DBW circuit.
GM also used DBW, but they do it with a safety mechanism. Toyota only has 1 DBW circuit, while GM has two.
Toyota has one 3 wire circuit that has a 5 volt reference, a ground and a circuit to check the voltage drop.
GM has two circuits. Both with a 5 volt reference, a ground and a circuit to check the voltage drop.

Difference is as the voltage drops on Toyota's the PCM opens the throttle accordingly, so if the wire detects 3 volts it's open 60% if the wire detects 2 volts it's open 70%, ETC.

GM has one circuit at 5 volts, and one at zero. When the 5 volt circuit drops to four the other circuit should be at 1. When the 5 volts circuit drops to 3, the other circuit raises to 2. They should ALWAYS correliate opposite each other,. If they don't the car goes into "limp mode" shutting down the acceleration and turning on the check engine light. This way the only way to possibly have unintended acceleration is by a faulty/sticking pedal or PCM. Toyota doesn't do that, so unless they can replicate the problem in their shop they can't be 100% positive of their repair. Either way, with a shim this will allow the pedal to go to closed position quicker, therefore any PCm problems that may exist will be fixed due to the throttle going back to closed position faster. I say this will fix their problem, however one could attempt to replicate this problem by slowly releasing the gas pedal at the exact same speed that the pedal used to go back up before the shim was installed. Pretty unlikely"

Last week's phony  LA "runaway Prius" story caught my attention then I read this from a March 12th article in The Atlantic:

"These "electronic defects" apparently discriminate against the elderly, just as the sudden acceleration of Audis and GM autos did before them. In the 24 cases where driver age was reported or readily inferred, the drivers included those of the ages 60, 61, 63, 66, 68, 71, 72, 72, 77, 79, 83, 85, 89--and I'm leaving out the son whose age wasn't identified, but whose 94-year-old father died as a passenger."   

Full article here:
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2010/03/how-real-are-the-defects-in-toyotas-cars/37448/

I suspect more than ever that this is just another phony "sudden acceleration" problem a la' 60 minutes Audi Bravo Sierra..

Yesterday, On the way Home, I pulled into a local Convenience strore parking lot.  When I looked up, I realized that our store now stocks the toyota Prius. They have one instock right on the shelves :)

Some old women Drove her Prius clear into the store.

I talked to the woman crying outside in the parking lot.  She said she put the car in reverse, looked back, Hit the gas and the car went FORWARD full throttle into the Store. It crashed right through the glass and aluminum frame and then smashing into shelves of products.  I stand at that counter at least once a day. Had I been there, I would have been killed for sure. 

Nobody was hurt.  Just lots of damage.  Obviously, She put the car in Drive on accident and there is no fault with the car. She was already talking about "how that car almost killed people".  Uh, No..  YOU almost killed people. 

Its the second time someone Drove into the store.  I think its time for some concrete and steel Cylinders to be installed outfront. This would stop the cars and maybe save lots of lives.  Its common for 4 to 5 people to be standing exactly where that woman parked her car!

I think it's time to require older drivers, getting near 70, to start taking driving tests. As they get older the tests get harder to check on reaction time and ability to think and make a decision in a certain amount of time.
The "driving tests" could be in a mock set-up with a simulated driving course.
There's too many of these "old age" accidents happening, where the "car just accelerates full throttle into grocery stores or parking lots", killing people.
I live in a small town in Western Pa. and there's a lot of old folks around and they creep along and turn on their signals WHEN they make the turn and go about 2 MPH. Some swing out to the middle of the road like they're drivng a tractor trailer to make their 2 MPH turn.
I drove an 80 passenger school bus and never swung out to make a turn.

Has any analysis ever been made that the cruise control is malfunctioning, or engaged without the driver's knowledge? Some of these cars have all kinds of buttons on the steering wheel now.

Fred

John  JN thinking about your post. If the ground side of the pot opens  the output goes to 5 volts no matter where the wiper is positioned.

I just heard that ages 50-60 Toyota drivers are reporting 'unwanted acceleration' at three times the rate of 20-30 year old drivers.

Yes, driving the same cars.

There's a scientific lesson here somewhere..

Old people cant Drive?   :o

C

Interesting paper, but I think you've misread this slightly.   My reading is that if the two signals are resistively coupled ( " certain short circuit resistances between VPA and VPA2 were undetectable")  AND  one goes to +5 volt rail.  This a significantly less likely than a the two signals being shorted and pulled up to 5V.

Whether or not its still a piss poor design, I'll leave to the lawyers, who'll probably end up making that call rather than engineers.

                                                                                                   Ian VK3KRI
 

glad these people don't have nukes

   Yes I agree. When I was in my twenties, all sorts of things happened to me where I SHOULD HAVE hired a lawyer and fought various issues. Instead I did nothing. Now in my 50's, I will assert myself and fight back given the same circumstances. This does not make me senile.

    On the professional front I work with some pretty high level software engineers. I find issues, and they fix them. These guys have to fight some mighty complex software issues that are often NOT easily reproduceable. Whether we are controlling a car, or other sophisticated machine, there are all sorts of software subroutines not ordinarily used when everything is behaving. This means that basic functionality will be fine, but when we step through a less traveled subroutine, if a bug exists, then that is when we have problems. So take a Toyota Prius with a host of sensors, input statuses, etc., the combinations are infinite.

    Maybe there is a combination of software conditions that leads to unwanted acceleration? Now add to this EMI susceptibility, and the "Tin Whisker" problem, and now we have a mess.

    So the Toyota engineers drove the Prius around the block, and it worked as designed. That means nothing to me. Now they are suggesting the driver possibly having a "senile moment"? Weren't the brakes on the car fried? Even if he had both the gas and the brake pedal depressed, according to Toyota, the software would have ignored the gas pedal...

    If the problem is real, then these UA issues will continue....

Jim
WD5JKO

Statistically, given thousands, maybe millions of lines of code, and coupling that with human interaction and 'control', one can expect glitches sufficient to cause a runaway car now and then.

...and then 'they' will take over. All will become calm and orderly. ;D

I just saw on TV that now they suspect cosmic rays may screw up the Toyota computers.    I am almost an old driver, 66 in another month.     I get just as mad when some old fart pulls out in front of me then goes much slower than the speed limit.  I get just as mad at yuppies who tailgate me while I am usually going 5 mph over the speed limit.   I have found that you can go 5 mph over the speed limit in PA and never get stopped for speeding.    I have never been found guilty of a speeding violation.  When I am 70 things may be different.   In PA they retest old drivers, including the written exam that covers minor details of the motor vehicle code.    Many in their 80's or older just don't bother to retest and lose their licenses.

This kind of thing is really individual.

My Grandpa is 94!!!! and Drives everyday in Las vegas Traffic.

I hope I am still alive at your grandpa's age, whether or not still driving.     Some people age differently, some physically, mentally or both.    Looks like good genes run in your family.

He is a health nut and wrote many books

http://cardiofitnesshealth.com/index.htm

http://www.lifeahead.net/index.htm

Click the lifeahead program and download it. Its free.   It will tell you how long you will live :)

C

Case closed!

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-toyota-nasa-20110209,0,4830024.story

So was this just a software and EMC review?  Not sure NASA would be the best agency to do either.

Apparently the report exonerates Toyota and any electronic issues.  There's no evidence of an EMI/RFI or software issue according to reports.

So the question is what caused it. Is it an end-user issue?

Now the US gov. has an issue, the US Congress, specifically. They brought the CEO and all the head honcho's from Toyota and ripped them a new one without anything to substantiate their claims and cost Toyota a big amount of cash.  Talk about embarrassment and eating crow and the gov. keeps on ticking like nothing happened.  Must be nice not to incur any liabilities or have to answer to failings.

Heres a clue:

"These "electronic defects" apparently discriminate against the elderly, just as the sudden acceleration of Audis and GM autos did before them. In the 24 cases where driver age was reported or readily inferred, the drivers included those of the ages 60, 61, 63, 66, 68, 71, 72, 72, 77, 79, 83, 85, 89--and I'm leaving out the son whose age wasn't identified, but whose 94-year-old father died as a passenger."   

Full article here:
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2010/03/how-real-are-the-defects-in-toyotas-cars/37448/



If you know who the big GM shareholders are now (post bankruptcy & screwing over all those mom & pop suppliers) i.e., US Govt & UAW, you'll realize this was a well aimed salvo at a big competitor & "embarrassment and eating crow" are the last thing on their minds.