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THE AM BULLETIN BOARD => QSO => Topic started by: WD5JKO on February 09, 2010, 07:44:52 AM



Title: Home Alarm Systems - Need Input
Post by: WD5JKO on February 09, 2010, 07:44:52 AM

Ok, we've had a string of burglaries nearby, and the XYL says it's time to get an alarm system.

So I'm looking at the plethora of choices: Wired, Wireless, DIY, Professionally installed, Call options (email, cell phone, call center, etc.). Then being a Ham, I don't want a bunch of RFI generators installed in my home. I also don't want my HAM transmitter to trigger the alarm, or cause the control panel to latch-up.

So what do other hams do for home security?

Jim,
WD5JKO


Title: Re: Home Alarm Systems - Need Input
Post by: Jim, W5JO on February 09, 2010, 07:48:32 AM
Smith and Wesson


Title: Re: Home Alarm Systems - Need Input
Post by: Mike/W8BAC on February 09, 2010, 08:53:15 AM
Starting a new installation I would first rule out anything wireless. I would go with all sensors and I/O equipment hard wired to the system box with shielded cable. I use shielded twisted pair audio cable and shielded cat 5 cable. Run a GOOD ground to the box and ground the shields at the box only, don't tie the shield to the item at the far end of the run. If your using a local (in house) noise maker use a bell instead of an audio horn as the horn might talk back when on the air.

If your going to use a the Bell system to communicate and your hoseing your phone system now it's time to fix that so your rfi doesn't see the alarm system.

Don't skimp on motion detectors. Look for combination ultrasonic/inferred motion sensors. These require a warm body to move instead of a window curtain or moving air from a register.

Use magnetic switches at the doors. It's old school but,set up right, it works far better than anything wireless. More work? Yes, but no problems later.

Last, Hide the system box in a closet or unused small space. Lock the space if you can. Pick up some rfi snap on ferrite chokes and a bag of .01 caps for later use. Good Luck

Mike

After thinking about this for a time I thought it would be a good idea to add a few things.

I use mechanical (old school again) key switches for arming/disarming the system instead of DTMF type keypads. I guess I don't trust them. If you zone your system correctly you can have at home and away security without a keypad. Use tamper switches on any sensitive equipment and don't forget a tamper switch on the box and keypad.

The industry likes LED lights on motion detectors. They are a tool for setup ie aiming the sensor but a good sensor will have a led defeat jumper inside to be used after the system is finished.

Not alarm related but something to think about. Use deadbolt locks with a key on the inside and outside (warning: not for family's with children). When you are home leave your key in the inside lock for safety. When away all keys are pulled. If a crook uses a window for entry, he will look to a door for escape. If it is locked he is trapped and must use the same window. Better chances of being caught. Dead bolt the closet with the alarm and use a mag switch on it as well. This closet is a good place to store important stuff.

Your phone or cable system is at risk if you use one of them for communications. It's a do not pass go felony for tampering in the commission of a crime but who ever said a home invader was smart. Think about a closed circuit video system aimed at your most vulnerable areas that is keyed to turn on if the system is tripped. High quality motion sensor yard lights are a great way to make honest people stay honest.


Title: Re: Home Alarm Systems - Need Input
Post by: WA1GFZ on February 09, 2010, 09:36:14 AM
My little hitty cat up to a 12 gauge
My dad had a little sign on his back door.
"This house protected by Mr Colt, Mr Smith and Mr Wesson"


Title: Re: Home Alarm Systems - Need Input
Post by: W2XR on February 09, 2010, 09:51:09 AM
Starting a new installation I would first rule out anything wireless. I would go with all sensors and I/O equipment hard wired to the system box with shielded cable. I use shielded twisted pair audio cable and shielded cat 5 cable. Run a GOOD ground to the box and ground the shields at the box only, don't tie the shield to the item at the far end of the run. If your using a local (in house) noise maker use a bell instead of an audio horn as the horn might talk back when on the air.

If your going to use a the Bell system to communicate and your hoseing your phone system now it's time to fix that so your rfi doesn't see the alarm system.

Don't skimp on motion detectors. Look for combination ultrasonic/inferred motion sensors. These require a warm body to move instead of a window curtain or moving air from a register.

Use magnetic switches at the doors. It's old school but,set up right, it works far better than anything wireless. More work? Yes, but no problems later.

Last, Hide the system box in a closet or unused small space. Lock the space if you can. Pick up some rfi snap on ferrite chokes and a bag of .01 caps for later use. Good Luck

Mike

Mike,

We have a hard-wired ADT system. The system has proven to be very reliable and trouble-free over the numerous years it has been installed here at the W2XR QTH.

I had an issue originally with the audio horn talking back when I was on the air, and I solved the problem by lining the interior of the plastic housing with adhesive-backed aluminum foil. This fix killed the RFI completely.

I also had an issue with the fire alarm being false triggered when I put the rig on the air. As the ADT field service people knew nothing about RFI issues, etc., I finally was able to get through to someone within the ADT Engineering Department. I was advised that there are two different types of fire sensors used within the ADT-installed systems, and one of them is much more susceptable to RFI. I wish I could recall which type was finally installed (I think it used some kind of radioactive gas in a sealed bulb,  I can't swear to it), but it solved that RFI issue completely.

I have had no issue with the infrared proximity detectors being susceptable to RFI, and we have the magnetic door sensors installed as well. No issues either with the communications between the home QTH and the central monitoring office.

If I had to do it all over again, I would have specified shielded CAT-5E or shielded twisted pair for all of the wiring runs. We did'nt need this, fortunately, but the cost delta at the time of installation would be minimal and it would certainly reduce, if not eliminate, any possible RFI pick-up within these runs.

73,

Bruce


Title: Re: Home Alarm Systems - Need Input
Post by: flintstone mop on February 09, 2010, 10:52:22 AM
Never had any problem with an ADT WIRED system. Asked the installers (and paid extra for) shielded wire. Low dipoles over house, ADT wires running in attic, NEVER tripped. Also had wireless system in another QTH. Antennas near house, not over roof. Still no faults. ADT system.
Tell the vendor what your situation is with Ham radio and RFI issues.

Fred


Title: Re: Home Alarm Systems - Need Input
Post by: k4kyv on February 09, 2010, 10:56:05 AM
My little hitty cat up to a 12 gauge
My dad had a little sign on his back door.
"This house protected by Mr Colt, Mr Smith and Mr Wesson"


The most bizarre thing I ever heard on this subject was when I was discussing this over the air a couple of years ago.  The person I was talking to said that in his state (don't remember which one), it was against the law to attach an audio recorder to the security system, even on your own property!  He said video surveillance recorders were OK but that audio recorders were illegal.  That's why at where he worked the security system used video cameras but the recorders have no audio track.

Assuming a low BS factor, that story has to be the most extreme example of criminalising the victim while protecting the intruder that I have ever heard.

It'll be a cold day in hell when someone tries to prevent me from setting up an audio recorder in my own house.


Title: Re: Home Alarm Systems - Need Input
Post by: N2DTS on February 09, 2010, 11:07:56 AM
Maybe it had nothing to do with recording the crooks audio, just everyone elses?
Like you are not home and spy on kids, wife, people that come over, etc?

I don't think you are allowed to record your own telephone converstaions, even in your own house, as you do not have permission of the other party, or maybe you have to let them know they are being recorded.

But its not like anyone is going to come over and bust you unless you use the info in court...

Brett


Title: Re: Home Alarm Systems - Need Input
Post by: WV Hoopie on February 09, 2010, 11:33:45 AM
Burglaries in this neck of the woods happen just about one every week. Meth, unemployent, etc., have added to the mess in Orygun.

Most of the neighbors now have fences around the perimiter, mine is 6 feet high with locked gates. This keeps most of the smash and grabs out. The last rash of break-ins were with someone using bolt cutters on the locks.

This made me purchase a PowerMax Plus from homesecuritystore. It is wireless and a KW station does not bother it in the least, easy to install. It covers buildings in the backyard too boot, wireless. A feature on the newer ones, they can use cell phone technology to place calls in case of an alarm.

In Orygun: If one person in the conversation wants to record that conversation, it is Legal!!!! Yes, I've recorded phone conversations to share with the AG's office in Salem. Realy cuts down on some of the nuts that don't want to go along with the program.

If you hide the system in a closet (etc) plan on adding another phone extension, outlets for systems (wall warts).

Craig,


Title: Re: Home Alarm Systems - Need Input
Post by: KB2WIG on February 09, 2010, 12:02:22 PM
  " Use deadbolt locks with a key on the inside and outside (warning: not for family's with children). When you are home leave your key in the inside lock for safety.
"

One may purchase dead bolt locks that have a lever on the inside; no need to worry about egress.    Just make sure they can't be reached from the outside if the glass is busted.




klc

"I was so impressed by the company, I bought a Remington."


Title: Re: Home Alarm Systems - Need Input
Post by: VE1IDX on February 09, 2010, 02:22:58 PM
A few years ago I had a system installed here by ADT. It uses all wireless sensors, magnetic door switches, infra red motion detector, and smoke alarm. No issues at all with RFI either to the system of from it.


Title: Re: Home Alarm Systems - Need Input
Post by: WD5JKO on February 09, 2010, 03:01:00 PM

Thanks guys for the comments thus far. Some questions though:

1.) How does your system connect to the monitoring service, and the pros & cons of that method? I recall a few years back when analog cell phone support ended, and a whole bunch of security systems went off line. So far I have a ma-bell phone line.

2.) The wireless stuff must have range limitations, and need periodic battery replacement. How far can you go, and how long do the batteries last? Looking at some systems 4-sale, I see those 12v batteries like in garage door openers (AAA diameter, but 2/3 the length), and some say Lithium cells. I know that a trip to the big box store for a bunch of these batteries will definitely ring-up the cash register. So is it $100 twice a year to replenish batteries?

Jim
WD5JKO


Title: Re: Home Alarm Systems - Need Input
Post by: Mike/W8BAC on February 09, 2010, 03:57:00 PM
Hi Jim.

Your Ma Bell service will work just fine. Make sure the system dials using DTMF and not older rotary switch dialing. The rotary dial types are still out on the market.

I like the Nextalarm internet systems. If you use this type you can receive email instantly telling you of an event and send video to the monitoring service. Google Nextalarm. One of the pages tells you what types and models of alarms that you can purchase that will work with they're system.

I don't know much about wireless systems but if they used batteries I wouldn't be interested for another reason.

Mike

Late Note, That page on the Nextalarm site showing compatible alarms for internet surveillance is a bit hard to find even for me so here it is.

https://nextalarm.com/help/Wiki.jsp?page=ABNCompatibility (https://nextalarm.com/help/Wiki.jsp?page=ABNCompatibility)


Title: Re: Home Alarm Systems - Need Input
Post by: W1RKW on February 09, 2010, 05:40:15 PM

Ok, we've had a string of burglaries nearby, and the XYL says it's time to get an alarm system.

So I'm looking at the plethora of choices: Wired, Wireless, DIY, Professionally installed, Call options (email, cell phone, call center, etc.). Then being a Ham, I don't want a bunch of RFI generators installed in my home. I also don't want my HAM transmitter to trigger the alarm, or cause the control panel to latch-up.

So what do other hams do for home security?

Jim,
WD5JKO

Got a Concorde system here tied into ADT. No RF susceptance or acceptance. Will do wireless and hard wired.  I am strictly hard wired. No faults whatsoever.

If you have an alarm system installed, ensure that you have your phone line armored to prevent cutting of the phone line.

I armored my phone service entrance since it is at ground level (underground wiring).


Title: Re: Home Alarm Systems - Need Input
Post by: WV Hoopie on February 09, 2010, 05:49:36 PM
Monitoring services are questionable in this area. If response does not arrive in 5 or 10 minutes it is too late. Sheriff's department will not send a deputy to a home alarm, the county can't afford the man power and doesn't have the money to keep the non violent in jail.

The neighbors now have their systems to call other neighbors first. Guns will get there pronto!

The Visonic does well wireless at distances of 70 feet, no problems. Batteries will be an issue but a warning can be sent if any of the sensors have a weak battery. With any alarm system, test it every week!

Dead bolt locks haven't slowed the meth-heads one bit. They use a wreaking bar between the door & frame. Even those long reenforcing plates have been pulled out screws and all. The house across the street has been hit twice in the last year or two, same side door. The first time there wasn't an alarm system, second time there was and a neighbor came running with a gun. ;D

So far a tall fence around the yard with no access to the side or back of the house has been the best deterent.

Craig


Title: Re: Home Alarm Systems - Need Input
Post by: Mike/W8BAC on February 09, 2010, 06:02:36 PM
Craig, That sounds like a rough neighborhood! I lived in some tough neighborhoods in Sacramento back in the 70's and early 80's. Had my place tipped over twice and learned to keep things safe and think like a crook. We didn't have meth than but we had plenty of crooks looking for a pushover.

I never had a six foot fence and I'm sure I don't know everything about alarms but I still take home security seriously. I'm in a nice neighborhood now but I don't take chances. Nothing worse than coming home to find someone broke in and stole everything you liked and smashed the rest.

Mike


Title: Re: Home Alarm Systems - Need Input
Post by: WV Hoopie on February 09, 2010, 06:35:52 PM
Mike,

It's not a rough neighborhood. Crime pays in Lane County Oregon, bad guys & gals are back on the street in a couple of hours after being booked. So, why not do it again? All they have to do is watch a house and wait for the owner to leave. Easy pickings!

A guy can't even keep a trailer hitch on the back of his truck. The crooks use a bolt cutter and pawn the hitch for a quick buck. We can't leave anything in the front yard or driveway.

Enough clean needles are given away by one of the do gooder organizations; running the numbers one out of every ten people in the Eugene/Springfield area could be an intravenous drug user. Moms can't let their children play at parks because of dirty needles left there by the druggies.

I've seen enough!

Craig,


Title: Re: Home Alarm Systems - Need Input
Post by: VE1IDX on February 09, 2010, 06:40:19 PM
Not sure of the distance the newer wireless systems will cover but within a normal size house it is no problem whatsoever. All my sensors take the 3 volt battery that looks like half of a AA cell. The key fobs we have take the coin cell type. All the battery types are Lithium cells. Batteries last over a year on everything and the control panel shows whenever a sensor has a low battery. We are on a battery maintenance plan with our system so once or twice a year we just call and they come and replace ALL the batteries at the same time. Monthly charges for up here with a full monitored  system with battery replacement runs about $37.00. Only problem is you can't use wireless in an unheated out building due to the cold affecting the batteries. Simple solution is to hard wire those places. I had to do that with my barn I added last year. It has one door switch and a motion detector hardwired while the house is all wireless.


Title: Re: Home Alarm Systems - Need Input
Post by: N2DTS on February 09, 2010, 06:54:24 PM
Many systems have cell phone type service to dial out.
The wireless stuff is poised to explode, many places I work on are replacing dsl, dedicated fractional T1 lines, and even persistant dial with 3g wireless stuff.

One of the guys at work told me all the new build fios stuff has been cancelled, to be replaced with 4g wireless stuff.....

Brett


Title: Re: Home Alarm Systems - Need Input
Post by: Mike/W8BAC on February 09, 2010, 06:59:55 PM
Clarification, I'm not totally against batteries in an alarm system. The system box in all (it think) wired alarm systems have batterys in them. I take that to extremes. I use two systems here. One as the main system and one as a redundant backup. Both came with gel cell batteries. Both batteries have been replaced to provide the system with a minimum of two weeks backup without commercial power. That requires a large battery for the electromechanical bell.


Title: Re: Home Alarm Systems - Need Input
Post by: W3SLK on February 09, 2010, 07:36:21 PM
If you don't have kids a big old doberman or a nasty mastiff might make someone think twice about breeching you abode  ;)


Title: Re: Home Alarm Systems - Need Input
Post by: W2XR on February 09, 2010, 08:39:50 PM
Mike,

It's not a rough neighborhood. Crime pays in Lane County Oregon, bad guys & gals are back on the street in a couple of hours after being booked. So, why not do it again? All they have to do is watch a house and wait for the owner to leave. Easy pickings!

A guy can't even keep a trailer hitch on the back of his truck. The crooks use a bolt cutter and pawn the hitch for a quick buck. We can't leave anything in the front yard or driveway.

Enough clean needles are given away by one of the do gooder organizations; running the numbers one out of every ten people in the Eugene/Springfield area could be an intravenous drug user. Moms can't let their children play at parks because of dirty needles left there by the druggies.

I've seen enough!

Craig,

Craig,

I was always under the impression that the Eugene, OR area was something of mecca for long-distance runners and health enthusiasts. Or am I thinking of a different part of the state?

If it was Eugene, it's sad that runners and other outdoor-types (and anyone else, for that matter) have to put up with seeing dirty needles and other low-life artifacts in public venues. I always think of Oregon and Washington as being such clean, fresh air environments, at least compared to the Greater New York/New Jersey/Long Island area where I live.

73,

Bruce


Title: Re: Home Alarm Systems - Need Input
Post by: WV Hoopie on February 09, 2010, 09:49:54 PM
Hi Bruce,

Same Eugene, Track Town! The Eugene/Springfield region has seen better days. Can't leave a bicycle unattended or it is stolen. Quite a few are stolen from UO students in Eugene. Some have lost 5 or more during their stay at UO.

The rivers are great for trout fishing and white water sports. Cars are broken into while left at the county boat launches. Mt Pisgah had to keep volunteers in the parking lots to keep vandals from breaking into cars.

The towns had a lot going for them, but the timber industries have left after taking most of the good forest. So many nice things have been ruined by the drug culture.

Craig,


Title: Re: Home Alarm Systems - Need Input
Post by: W4EWH on February 10, 2010, 02:34:51 AM

      Ok, we've had a string of burglaries nearby, and the XYL says it's time to get an alarm system.


      It may be time to think about security, but an alarm system is only one part of that process.

      FWIW, here are a few things to consider:

      • What do you have that's worth protecting? How much is it worth?
      • Does your homeowner's insurance policy cover all the valuable items in your home? Most don't, so you'd do well to research the coverage and add insurance for things like jewelry, antiques, gold, silver, coins, stamps, etc.
      • An alarm system will not keep burglars out of your home. They may be stupid, but they're not idiots: they know that it will take at least three minutes for the police to get there, so they'll be gone in that time.
      • If you have things that are worth protecting, which are high enough in value that insurance costs are significant, the insurance company will insist on a safe and an alarm system anyway, so you need to consider the relative value and cost of the insurance, the items to be protected, and the cost of the safe and installation.
        • Safes are rated by Underwriters Laboratories, in terms of the time a unit can withstand a given type of attack. For example, a safe rated at "3 TH/TL" can withstand a three-hour attack by an experienced burglar with a torch and tools.
        • Avoid "Fire" or "Media" safes: they're not designed to resist deliberate attack
        • There's a reason they're named the Underwriters Laboratories: their ratings are used to determine insurance costs! Do not buy a safe that doesn't have a UL rating: loses would almost certainly be excluded from your policy!
      • Forget any notion of your neighbors riding over the hill like the Cavalry in an old Western: the most dangerous thing in the world is a civilian with a firearm, so please just sit down with the neighbors and form a Neighborhood Watch. You'll get much better and more effective security by keeping an eye out for each other than by depending on firearms.

      With these things in mind, and adequate insurance in hand, you'll be ready to consider the costs and benefits of an alarm system.


      So I'm looking at the plethora of choices: Wired, Wireless, DIY, Professionally installed, Call options (email, cell phone, call center, etc.). Then being a Ham, I don't want a bunch of RFI generators installed in my home. I also don't want my HAM transmitter to trigger the alarm, or cause the control panel to latch-up.

      There are as many choices as there are salesmen eager to tell you all about how their flavor tastes better and whitens your teeth. As with any major purchase, you'll need to do research, talk to your friends and neighbors who already have systems, and (most importantly) match the alarm to the items it protects!

      So, here's another list of things to think about:

      • Beware of what Bruce Schneier calls "Security Theater": high-priced alarm "systems" sold to homeowners that give a false sense of protection and are easily bypassed.
        • DC loops to central stations are almost never used now, because they're trivial to defeat by simply putting a short circuit across the pair. However, the wiring inside your home is almost certain to be a closed-DC-loop design, and it's the work of a few seconds to put a paper clip across the magnet switch on a door or to short the wires connected to a motion detector. You need a layered system of defenses that prevents sabotage.
        • Most low-end alarm companies buy and install cheaply made control boxes from OEM's who often vanish before the warranty expires. The solution to any failure is to put in a brand new box and hand you the bill, so demand a written guarantee of replacement-without-cost for any failure within the first year or two. if you're buying an alarm system yourself, do extensive research on the manufacturer, the dealer, and the product's UL ratings.
        • Reputable alarm companies will always explain the risks of using "area" alarm devices, such as motion detectors: they can be bypassed with a wad of chewing gum smeared over the aperture, and are not considered reliable in commercial settings.
        • Ask your insurance carrier which alarm installers and monitoring services they approve: you don't want your insurance to be voided by using a non-approved company.
      • Remember that alarm wires are low volage, and therefore installers are not required to follow standard electrical practice! In the alarm industry, it's routine to poke holes in the tops and bottoms of closets when running wires from attic to cellar, and some alarm companies will brazenly explain the practice by claiming that "Everyone does it that way" or by threatening to raise the installation fee if you don't let them put wires wherever they please. Be sure your installation contract specifies routing inside walls or in armored conduit, because exposed wires are easy to cut, and many thieves will break into a house twice: the first time, they cut the wires in a place that's hard to see (or hire someone who already has access to do it for them), and then after you disable the alarm and shoo the police away, they're back the next night. Worse yet, sophisticated burglars will short-circuit the wires, thus preventing your alarm from sounding at all: then, they only need to wait until the alarm auto-resets before they return.
      • You almost certainly need more than one zone of protection. There's no polite way to say this, but it's a fact: most burglaries are carried out by "friends" of your children's friends. Kids don't have the experience to spot the losers and thieves that hang around (and sponge off) teenagers in the suburbs, and the criminals-in-training are geniuses at sleezing their way into any party and/or tailgating in with someone else you barely know. Once they're in your home, they'll be making a mental map of the weak spots in the security, and practicing their art by wheedling information out of your kids as to whether there's any silverplate in the house or if their parents have a "secret" stack of Krugerands or how much cash their dad keeps in his sock drawer. You need an alarm system that puts certain areas "off limits" even to your kids.
      • Once a burglar is in your home, he'll strive to be out and away before the police can arrive: he'll ignore any audible alarm (just like your neighbors will) and he'll take all the phones off the hook, and if he's done a little time he might even know enough to open the demarcation box where your phone wires terminate and cut the phone line before he even risks tripping an alarm: the "Demarc" boxes are almost always on the outside of homes or in the common areas of appartments, and Ma Bell won't armor their "drop" wires for you. This is why you'll see a small, wall-mounted yagi antenna inside the tellers' cage at most banks: it's the radio backup to the wired alarm system. If you're paying for active monitoring, always include "Dispatch on failure" provisions in your contract so that a cut wire is equivalent to an alarm.
      • Remember, above all, that an alarm buys you time, not security. The alarm's function is to summon aide which will, if you've planned carefully, arrive before the thief can breach your safe (or rip it out of the wall), and before he can make use of the intelligence he's bought on the location and type of any deception safes, and before he can remove or cut the wires to your computer and slip away with it. If you don't make use of the time an alarm can buy you, you are wasting money.

      73,

      Bill, W1AC, who wishes he hadn't learned so much of the above the hard way.


      Title: Re: Home Alarm Systems - Need Input
      Post by: KD3CN on February 10, 2010, 07:22:10 AM

      I agree with Mikey, one of these will not only alarm, but take corrective action on the situation. 

      (http://cache4.asset-cache.net/xc/81773876.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=38FCB2103A208D77B963AC9BE4463C03D7D08BDCD1F3D748BB07843F83331993)


      Title: Re: Home Alarm Systems - Need Input
      Post by: flintstone mop on February 10, 2010, 08:26:46 AM
      BIG BAD dogs scare crooks!!
      A wireless system is very reliable. Usually can get 3 yrs out of the sensors around the house. As part of your service, the alarm company has to come out and replace defective batteries.
      A cellular telephone is part of the wireless notification to the monitoring point. The wired landline is suseptable to tampering and cutting.

      WOW this country is going down the tubes.
      I thought it was scary to secure oneself with 6 foot high concrete walls around your house in the Philippines. Along the top of this concrete wall would be chards of glass or metal impregnated into the concrete, while the concrete was still wet, during construction. Guess we better do the same! At least over in the Phils. they steal to get food on the table for the family
      Fred


      Title: Re: Home Alarm Systems - Need Input
      Post by: WA1GFZ on February 10, 2010, 08:32:32 AM
      universal sound of fear. Chamber a round


      Title: Re: Home Alarm Systems - Need Input
      Post by: N2DTS on February 10, 2010, 08:52:12 AM
      Well, there are still places where people leave the doors open/unlocked when they go out, I live in one.
      People watch each others houses, plus 20 cops live in my hood as the rest of town is too expensive.
      Its like an armed camp, plus I have a dog and guns....

      Brett




      Title: Re: Home Alarm Systems - Need Input
      Post by: Steve - WB3HUZ on February 10, 2010, 08:55:29 AM
      Quote
      An alarm system will not keep burglars out of your home. They may be stupid, but they're not idiots: they know that it will take at least three minutes for the police to get there, so they'll be gone in that time.


      Excellent point. Any properly designed physical protection system will have the human response (guards, police, etc) be less than the time it would take an intruder to enter and exit the protected area.

      That said, unless you are being specifically targeted (you are known to have something(s) of great value, “insider” job), many burglars will move on when confronted with an alarm system, good locks or other beefed up physical barriers (bars on ground floor windows, steel or solid wood doors, etc). There are other easier targets to be had.


      Title: Re: Home Alarm Systems - Need Input
      Post by: W2XR on February 10, 2010, 11:11:46 AM
      Well, there are still places where people leave the doors open/unlocked when they go out, I live in one.
      Brett




      Brett,

      I'm not sure that I would make this kind of information available in a public forum such as this, regardless as to how many police officers live in the area, and how well armed the neighborhood is.

      You never know who may be watching. Better to be safe than sorry. I'm not suggesting paranoia, but rather a healthy respect and appreciation for the more purient realities of life nowadays.

      73,

      Bruce



      Title: Re: Home Alarm Systems - Need Input
      Post by: WA1GFZ on February 10, 2010, 11:39:02 AM
      Yea, Look through my solar room at the vintage 1991 27 inch RCA TV in the living room.


      Title: Re: Home Alarm Systems - Need Input
      Post by: N2DTS on February 10, 2010, 11:56:04 AM
      Well, if I look around the house, there is not much worth stealing unless they want tubes and big transformers , racks of homebrew gear and a lot of books.
      We have a small crappy TV, which if stolen would be replaced with a bigger good one, and there is nothing much else I would miss, or is worth much at the pawn shop.

      There is never any money in the house (or in the bank!).

      Plus, the dog freaks out anytime anyone comes around, the people across the street spend all their time looking out their window at my house, three police on my block, etc....

      I have often thought about what I would miss if the place burned to the ground, and there is not much at all besides the homebrew stuff.

      Brett




      Title: Re: Home Alarm Systems - Need Input
      Post by: W4EWH on February 10, 2010, 11:35:30 PM
      An alarm system will not keep burglars out of your home. They may be stupid, but they're not idiots: they know that it will take at least three minutes for the police to get there, so they'll be gone in that time.


      Excellent point. Any properly designed physical protection system will have the human response (guards, police, etc) be less than the time it would take an intruder to enter and exit the protected area.

      That said, unless you are being specifically targeted (you are known to have something(s) of great value, “insider” job), many burglars will move on when confronted with an alarm system, good locks or other beefed up physical barriers (bars on ground floor windows, steel or solid wood doors, etc). There are other easier targets to be had.


      That's true. In fact, the paradox of alarm systems is that they are most effective against "sneak" thieves, i.e., persons you know, or who have gained access under false pretenses. They're almost always amateurs, more afraid of being found out than anything else, and a well-designed, multi-zone alarm system that segments your home into "public", "family", and "private" areas will stop most sneak thieves.

      Professionals, of course, are a different matter: in their case, an alarm buys you only time, so it's essential (as Steve says) to beef up the physical barriers that slow down professional thieves, keep them away from high-value areas, and impede their progress to the point where they'll move on to easier targets. However, the security has to be both good and easy to spot, so that it will have maximum deterrence value without being tested. If a thief decides to take a chance, the first blast from the siren will start his clock running, and if he can't get inside within a few seconds, he'll abandon your house and make himself scarce.

      Bill, W1AC


      Title: Re: Home Alarm Systems - Need Input
      Post by: N2DTS on February 11, 2010, 09:06:01 AM
      Another way to deter crooks is to not have anything worth stealing!

      When they break into your house, what are they looking for?

      Looking around, I cant see them taking the furniture (which is nice), or the oven, or the homebrew equipment in racks, THAT might scare them....

      They can HAVE the TV!
      The computer is old, my sister gave it to me when it got a virus and its slow as mole asses.
      The audio equipment is from the 70's? and any pawn shop would laugh at the person bringing it in...


      What do these guys go after?

      Brett




      Title: Re: Home Alarm Systems - Need Input
      Post by: WA1GFZ on February 11, 2010, 11:14:23 AM
      Jewelery box is a quick grab. The best thing is to look poorer than your neighbor


      Title: Re: Home Alarm Systems - Need Input
      Post by: ka1cu on February 11, 2010, 11:49:17 AM
      I have a radio shack unit I installed with a dialer to call my cell .hooked up to a dvr with cameras to record when alarm is tripped....no monthly charges ................


      Title: Re: Home Alarm Systems - Need Input
      Post by: WD5JKO on February 12, 2010, 07:19:57 AM


      I want to thank everybody who posted here. I have a lot to think about. One problem is the Brinks TV adds depicting a housewife in here home startled by a prowler. The alarm goes off immediately, the prowler runs away, and then within moments a 'hunk of a man' calls the house to reassure the frightened lady that help is on it's way. Then after watching that TV commercial, my wife says, "we need to get an alarm".

      Well debating facts versus female emotion only results in the facts losing the debate every time. "But honey, you are not likely to arm the system during times when your up and about because the alarm will be constantly tripped". "I said, we need an alarm!"  "But Honey, an alarm might not deter the prowler. In fact he may enter anyway, shoot all of us, and take whatever he can get and then be gone before the cops arrive".

      I am not opposed to getting an alarm. Quite the contrary. The issue is the false sense of safety depicted by those security commercials on TV.

      Jim
      WD5JKO


      Title: Re: Home Alarm Systems - Need Input
      Post by: N2DTS on February 12, 2010, 09:06:38 AM
      My parents used to have an alarm, not sure why.
      Single box at the front door with a motion sensor and a LOUD horn outside.
      The big thing was the key switch with led's at the front door.
      After the alarm crapped out, we left the switch with the LED's on so it looked like the house was protected.

      Its just looks you have to worry about I think.

      I would worry more about a pipe breaking and filling the house with water while we are out, that could ruin lots of good homebrew stuff!
      I used to worry about the oil tank breaking. We went gas when the oil furnace started leaking, but I always worried about the 40 year old (or more) oil tank busting a leg when they filled it and dumping 275 gallons of oil and sludge into the basement!

      They are not expensive, so some outside camera's at the doors would be interesting, wireless, hook up to the computer, so you can see who is at the doors.
      That would likely deter some people from breaking in, but some crooks are so stupid they would try anyway...

      Brett


      Title: Re: Home Alarm Systems - Need Input
      Post by: KB2WIG on February 12, 2010, 11:22:29 AM
      Brett,
       For your approval.



      http://blutube.policeone.com/Media/4433-Dumbest-criminals-Robbing-a-police-station/


      Title: Re: Home Alarm Systems - Need Input
      Post by: N2DTS on February 12, 2010, 02:16:23 PM
      I have seen things even stupider, like the guy going back to the place he robbed to get his wallet and so on....

      Brett


      Title: Re: Home Alarm Systems - Need Input
      Post by: W4EWH on February 12, 2010, 04:23:01 PM

      I am not opposed to getting an alarm. Quite the contrary. The issue is the false sense of safety depicted by those security commercials on TV.


      Facts and female emotion are never going to agree. That's why advertising agencies get so much money: they are expert at arousing female emotions of fear, anxiety, and jealosy so that females demand "alarm systems" to protect them from every possible random event in the universe.

      The fact is that fear is a lot easier to sell than effective security: one can be assuaged with a cheap Taiwanese circuit box, a few wires, and lots of TV commercials, while the other requires professional judgment, expertise, expense, and patience.

      I recommend that you simply buy some magnetic switch assemblies and motion detectors from Epay, wire them in series, hook up a relay, a transformer, and an outside bell, and tell your wife that she is now "secure". So long as you put a prominently-labeled "panic button" in the kitchen, she'll believe you.

      I paid an extraordinary amount of money to have so-called "professionals" do this for me, and that is, in effect, all that they did. Trust me: you'll be amazed.

      Bill, W1AC



      Title: Re: Home Alarm Systems - Need Input
      Post by: W4EWH on February 12, 2010, 05:31:20 PM

      After the alarm crapped out, we left the switch with the LED's on so it looked like the house was protected.

      Its just looks you have to worry about I think.


      You're partly right: that's why all alarm companies put decals on your door when they install an alarm. Deterrence is just that: the idea is to make a thief choose an easier target.

      You're party wrong, though: protecting your home and family for real costs a lot more than a decal, and to do it you need to make hard choices about what is and is not worth protecting in your home.


      I would worry more about a pipe breaking and filling the house with water while we are out, that could ruin lots of good homebrew stuff!


      Most commercial-grade alarms include provisions for various "act of God" trip-and-report systems, such as flood, fire, etc. They are included because it's a trivial cost change to add the capability, and because insurance companies insist of having warning against such loses. It's all the same process, and if you encounter an alarm "system" that doesn't have provision for such alerting, run for the door while holding on to your wallet.


      They are not expensive, so some outside camera's at the doors would be interesting, wireless, hook up to the computer, so you can see who is at the doors. That would likely deter some people from breaking in, but some crooks are so stupid they would try anyway...


      Cameras over your door, or over your wrought-iron gate, don't make any difference in your security unless you have enough physical security to slow down an attacker long enough for help to arrive. If someone at your front door can pry his way in while you're still dialing 911, you've lost.

      Here's where it gets heavy: convincing your family that they're not an attractive target when every TV show, every local TV newscast, and every newspaper is in the business of making them afraid of their own shadow is a nearly-impossible task. You have to fight fire with fire, and make your wife and kids realize that true security comes from knowing and being able to depend on your neighbors for help. The way to start is to price every possible "security" option, from cheap alarms to "panic" rooms to live-in guards, and to show your wife and family what real security really costs.

      Let's face it: if it's possible to murder or maim the President of the United States, no $500 alarm "system" is going to protect your home. The hard truth is that protecting your home from every possible threat is a Herculean task that not even the Secret Service does perfectly, and the only measurable increase in security you'll ever get is the one where you go from nothing to something.

      Going from nothing to something means making choices about what options give the most bang for the buck. Buying a high-profit "security" system from a mass-market vendor is "Security Theatre": it gives only the illusion of protection, not the reality. Your family will realize this when they see what it costs to replace your doors with cement-filled portals, your windows with high-impact plexiglass, and your phone line with a radio-equipped backup system.

      They say sunlight is the best disinfectant. In like manner, the best security comes from shining a light on what is realistically possible, and getting your family to agree on what you can and can't afford.

      And now, the solution (cue the trumpets)!.

      If you construct an alarm system which uses ham radio to relay event and alarm information to other hams, you'll have both effective security and $100 extra in your pocket every month. A simple packet setup, which reports to either a local ham or a "central alarm" station, will obviate almost all of the tricks burglars use now, such as disconnecting your phone line at the demarc or running downstairs and ripping the wires off the alarm battery.

      Think of it: this is a Win-win-win. You get a secure home, you get closer ties with other hams, you get to save a lot of money.

      Bill "Where's my old TNC?" Horne, W1AC
      AMfone - Dedicated to Amplitude Modulation on the Amateur Radio Bands