The AM Forum

Hola,

This is an odd subject for the AM BB, but I think once you read it all, you will agree it’s some great info.

Both of our toilets had been flushing slowly for the last few years - almost identical performance. The septic field is OK and the main drain pipes work fine. I snaked the toilets and used chemicals. Still, the flush was very slow and anemic. It just went around and round and slowly emptied with some luck.

So, I finally decided be a sucker and call Roto-Rooter. I figured it must be something like the vent pipe was clogged or maybe the main drain pipe had tree roots growing into it - something big like that common to both toilets.

The guy came over and said he knows what causes 95% of the problems on OLDER toilets, but it would cost me $175 for each toilet to find out. (Ours are about 20 years old) I told him it was too much, but we worked out a better deal. I axed him how much time he wud spend on it - he just smiled and said they are not paid by the hour, but if it didn't make a BIG improvement, I didn't have to pay.

He seemed hesitant to let me watch him work – he said he knew customers and once I saw the solution, I wouldn’t call him back anymore…

So, bottom line - he spent about 10 minutes on each toilet and they are both working like new. And, he didn't use the snake to clear obstructions in the main bowl pipe.   The secret I will give you will be free and may make your toilets run like new too.

The problem is the water. Any water - city, well, filtered, contains deposits that slowly fill in passages in the toilet’s flushing system. They become partially clogged.  The deposits become as hard as stone just like in a limestone cave and the water will not flow well. A toilet that is 20 years old (like ours) is prone to this.  We have filtered well water here.

Do you know where the small hole is that shoots water out near the BOTTOM  of the bowl – shoots it into the main drain pipe?  It’s usually underwater and it cannot be determined if it’s working or not. This is in addition to the little water jets at the top which give the flush a whirlpool effect.  This large hole is what pushes the water down the main drain. Without it the water goes round and round.

Anyway, all he did was take a strong screwdriver and chip away at the hole for about 5 minutes. The water hole is normally about ¾” in diameter. It was so clogged with “stone” you could barely fit in a straw.  He worked very hard to break it loose and showed me large chips that looked like solid glass.

After he was finished chipping, the toilet came to life and could have sucked Yaz down the drain. It was like a new toilet. He did the same for the second toilet, took his money and split.

In hindsight, it would have been cheaper to buy two new toilets and install them myself. The water passages would be brand new and clean. He said an average toilet is good for about 20 years before the average water clogs it internally – just like cholesterol in our veins.

So that’s the story. I’ll bet if some of you with older toilets were to get out a strong screwdriver and chip out that water hole lying opposite the main bowl drain, you may be very surprised at the performance change.  Did I handle this subject tactfully enough, caw mawn?

T

Maybe we should post this in the AMfone Online AM Handbook Section as Tips & Hints For The AM'ers Everyday Life  :D

A person should keep their old toilets if at all possible! This fix just might help do that. If you junk that old pooper, then the new one you buy now has, by design, a poor flushing system because they have to use a limited amount of water per flush! The toilet "nazis" have created this to "conserve water", and only caused more waste by consumers having to flush more than once to get the job done. It has even caused a black market in toilet imports that exceed the US standards.  :)

untrue I have a couple Kolar centurians that use just over a gallon and blow the doors off my 5 gallon one in Enfield.
I've heard that story before. Also look at the holes under the rim. They also clog.

A good douche with CLR once in a while will keep the deposits from building up.

My parents had a strange problem with their 1st floor toilet which was similar to the build up problem JJ describes but rather than the toilet flushing and draining sluggishly it would drain when it wasn't in use. Over a period of a few hours or so after the bowl was refilled it would empty very slowly by itself. Empty enough to let sewer gases vent into the house. There were no cracks in the bowl and no leakage into the basement. The system vent was clear so no vacuum and the other toilets didn't exhibit this.  Yanking the toilet revealed a string of slim hanging down into the drain that acted as a water wick. The toilet had never been removed in the 40 years that they were in the house but the other 2 toilets were replaced about 10 years ago during a remodel so they wouldn't have shown this.  Cleaning the outlet, trap and drain fixed the problem.  Bizarre to say the least.

That may be a good idea. Add some CLR to the water tank from time to time.

Here's the info from a CLR ad. Notice they mention "hard water deposits."    I shud have saved some of the glass the guy broke out to see what it was made of. Probably all kinds of minerals from well water. He said a granular filter (like we use) will not help.


"CLR and Tarn-X Cleaners
CLR and Tarn-X have been industry leaders in cleaning for nearly 20 years, offering a wide selection of products to meet your cleaning needs.  Millions of customers trust the original CLR formula to blast through stubborn calcium, lime, and rust – now you can put the whole family of CLR and Tarn-X products to work in your home, garage, or shop.   

Patented CLR safely tackles the toughest calcium, lime, rust, and hard water deposits
Tarn-X products remove tarnish and restore brilliant shine to silver, gold, copper, and more "


Frank, yes the rim holes can be cleaned out with a piece of steel wire. However, if you're getting a good whirlpool effect already, but slow flush, it's probably the large opening below.

T

That's quite a message before supper... :o

Actually, a good lesson learned -  sometimes there is a reason to replace a toilet OR at least pull it off and check it out.  The snake can't do everything.

T

I want the TAPS guys offa SYFY to come down and find all the spirits and ghosts in my toilet. lemme tell you, bub, there's some evil things in there.  :D

Our well water is so hard out here you can pound nails with it.   ;)  The crapper has a mineral buildup everywhere the water sits, so I pour in a cup of pool acid every 6 months and let it sit overnight.  All the hard stuff just flushes away the next morning. 

I tried CLR, Tarnex, and Lime-Away.  Our liquid stone just laughed at those.  The rim holes have not been a problem with our model.

We run all our drinking H2O thru a RO filter system.  It seems to not be affected by the dissolves minerals as it last quite a while.

Hydrochloric (muriatic) acid works, too.  They recommend using it to clean mortar stains on brick masonry and ceramic tiles.  When I have a slow drain, I pour about a cup of acid into the drain, let it work for a while,  and then flush it out.

Just don't let the fumes get near any stainless steel fixtures.

I wouldn't add any of that stuff to the tank because it might damage the rubber flapper valve. I would drain the tank and open the flapper. Then pour it down the hole. CLR works great in our SS dishwasher. Then let it sit for a good long while. Say before you go to bed at night. We do CLR about every 3 months to keep the dish washer looking nice.
since it is all about velocity the Kolar has a large flapper valve to really get all the water moving fast. In 5 years it has never needed a second flush and just under $300 at home cheapo.

On some toilets, you can adjust the flapper valve by moving the float up or down on a little chain.  The tanks on most water closets hold several gallons of water, but are designed to only partially drain with each flush.  On mine, I moved the float all the way down to the very bottom of the chain, and now the tank fully empties every time I flush it.

Often the flapper valve won't fully open unless you hold the flusher down about a second before releasing it.  That gets the water going full blast and then the float remains on the surface and holds the flapper open so it won't be sucked down by the stream and close prematurely.

(*&(*& the fixtures! If the fumes can damage stainless steel, I'm only interested in how to keep them away from my lungs!

Bill, W1AC

I got one of those toilets that is supposed to flush a bucket of golf balls. It has been put to some severe tests and has never failed.

Simple here..................we just dig a new hole, slide the antique outhouse over it and cover the old with the dirt . The tomatoes and corn average 6' in height, 3 weeks later ! 

My toilet is a Mansfield.  It doesn't have any little water refill hole  :( 

Maybe using a water softener helps.

I have/had a neighbor who used to make a slurry with Pig,Chicken,Cow,Human Poop and he lived to be 83,.. whatever he could throw in that pile of his it got mixed in an in the bucket it went with well water...an stirred briskly.....an his Tomatoes were great friers when green an the reds were as big as your fist...

I wouldnt use any acid or other harsh chemicals if on a septic system.

Carl
KM1H

Carl, that was my thought but you beat me to it. Got to keep them bugs just a chewing in the septic tank. I even have a seperate system for gray water.
Regards,
Gary

Good to know, Carl.   I've since added bio "good bacteria"  additives to the septic system.   Those harsh "draino-type" chemicals never seemed to work anyway. If a snake doesn't do it, then time to pull the toilet off or look elsewhere.

BTW, as of today, the toilets are still flushing agressively. That chipped water hole fix definately did the trick. I feel so much better now... ;D

T

We Have 2 systems as well on my place Once a year I have the pipes cleaned and Once a month a cake of yeast in the hole an everybody is happy, also No paper products in either one.

A little bit of acid in a roughly ~1500 gallon septic tank isn't going to affect the pH that much since the bacteria in it tend to keep it low by virtue of fermentation action. However, those bugs do not like stuff high in pH. Chlorinated solutions get the bugs drunk and puts them to sleep. Grease has the same overall effect. Just remember a little lye can go a long way.

Most of the tanks around here are only 1000 gallon and some not even that big. As for the lye, been telling my wife that for years and she still doesnt know about the girl friend, hehehehehe.
Gary

Do the troopers go to the under ground barracks more quickly now?

I must admit...I never thought I would see the day when members on this list were bragging about who's toilet could out strap everyone else's toilet!   8) ::) ;D

Are things going down the drain?

73,  Jack, W9GT

Yea, what a crappy thread.  :P

Troopers go further away when you connect to the sewer system

If your a water abuser, it's hard to beat the old toilets of yesteryear. The last house I lived in had one in the basement we used to call the 'super dumpzilla'. This bad boy had what was probably a 10 or 15 gallon monstrous tank and an extra jumbo sized bowl. Unlike toilets these days, with they're anemic little 'click, hiss, garble garble', when you pulled the trigger on Zilla, it would come to life with a thunderous, seemingly dangerous, "BBAHHHHWWHHOOOSHH". All 400,000 cubic feet of water in the bowl began rotating with a ferociousness rivaled only by the largest of our universes' known singularity's. As fast as this whirlpool of high speed waste water came into being, it would disappear down into the drain in the blink of an eye, simultaneously accompanied by a forceful 'whoosh' of air from under the bathroom door. Forty minutes later, when the tank had finished refilling, the system ready for another mission.

When I moved out of there, I almost took that toilet with me, but I figured the plastic soil pipes in this house weren't up to the task.

Just felt like writing something silly, 73.  

Ah yes, buried at sea.

But not in one piece.  :o

Hello All,
     My prostate gets cloged up every few years. I will have to try the "screw driver" trick and see if it works for me!!

I Have 1600 feet of 1 inch copper line in the ground for my city water supply side, Now that's a ground rod... ;D

this thread is goofy.. :D

I want to do an update on this off-topic thread.  My first post repair info is incorrect. The correct info can save lots of money and aggravation.

It seems that the info I was given three years ago by the plumber was wrong about how to make the whirlpool-effect work better in a toilet. Evidently he wanted to keep coming back for more repairs....

When I watched him, he said to chip out the mineral deposits from the single hole at the bottom of the toilet bowl. BUT - it seems when I left, he went to work on the twelve little holes that circle around just under the rim. They were all blocked up.  These add the whirlpool effect.

Today I noticed the toilets were not working well and the water was not spinning. Chipping the single hole at the bottom had no effect. Then I went into the twelve smaller holes under the rim using a small 1" pointed screwdriver. Out fell piles of hard, white mineral deposits, like rocks. They were blocking the whirlpool water flow. It took a good 20 minutes to stab thru both toilets, but now they both flush like a tornado.

It seems this info is not commonly available to the public - we just pour down chemicals and then call the man.

Excuse this way-off-topic thread update, but I couldn't leave this incorrect info sitting from the first post ...   ALL AMers use toilets, so it is AM related, right?  ;)

T

Also, many a time a ham states that the band is in the toilet. So it should work.

Just in time for Thanksgiving...

Bill

I had to give all 4 toilets here a good poke shortly after that original post, they had just reached the 20 year mark! What a difference.

And yes, I did the upper holes also.

I also have to remove and decalcify the furnace hot water coil about every 4-5 years and eventually have to replace as the acid does a number on the copper. Cheaper than a whole house conditioner which is up around 2 kilobucks these days and replacement filters every 3-5 years are $750. Little known side benefits of rural living and well water >:(

I use a full house particle filter which runs $20 once a year but still have to clean the dishwasher filter every 4-5 years, plus the clothes washer screens yearly and then replace the solenoid operated valve every 5-6 years. Now the external shut off valve is starting to drip but its the original from 1989.

Hi Tom,

So we can now call your first post "shitty advice" ;) but now you have come clean :)

Great advice....

Joe, GMS

Hmmm... you gots me thinking now that if the toilets had calcification, then all the other water appliances must too. I do notice the dish washer flow has dropped way off.  Those solenoids and valves can be a real PIA to tackle for the average bloke.

Yes, I can't emphacize enough how badly blocked those 12 rim holes were. Some I had to use a hammer to pound the little 1" screwdriver thru. They were so sealed that one would think there was no hole at all.   Move the screwdriver around in a wide circular motion to elongate the hole and break up the hard deposits.   When punched thru, the stones started falling and the water flowed again. Don't do a half-assed job - spend the time to get every hole working. It makes a big difference in whirlpool effect.

Our toilets are about 30 years old, so probably need replacing anyway. But now they flow like new...

It's either do it yourself or pay the man $200- $300 for this simple job. This is a plumber's bread and butter... :D


Bill: Speaking of toilet cloggers, at least you don't have to worry about Barry White dropping by for Thanksgiving.


T

Tom,

Does the ever-clogging rim hole clearance project affect the bowl resonance or the amount of bandwidth utilized by the toilet? I also wonder if it degrades the toilet bowl IMD. It's always important to look at the big picture when tackling a risky high performance project like this. There must be a long list of federal regulations about all this stuff. At any rate, as always, I thank you for the enlightenment!

Rob W1AEX

I wouldn't do that if I were you. Refer to my old post above.

If you must, I heard there's companies in Canada willing to ship weapons grade high volume thrones over the border in plain brown wrappers marked gift. Just be careful because I'm sure there's a highly sensitive nose connected to a dog somewhere at some customs station vigilantly searching for these felonious fecal eradicators. Before signing for the delivery, turn an ear to the sky and listen for a moment. If you don't hear the familiar sound of a police heli's rotor beating the air somewhere just outside your visual range, then it's probably safe to accept the shipment. Just get them inside in a hurry. There's some states where even having one in the same room with you is a felony.

I have very fond memories of the old Judge I had in my last house. That baby would take your best holidays, or your worse cold/flu, or your wildest night out on the town raising hell, and swish it all away with a comforting and revitalizing whoosh!

He Whom Taketh this Seat Shall Be Judged.   

I remeber a few years ago having a conversation with a guy around here who had a friend that I think lived out west somewhere that was building a house and wanted good toilets for it, so he went to Canada and came back with something like 10 of them on a flatbed truck.

I heard you can get them out of Mexico too. I guess that's what the drug mules transport in the off season.  ;D ;D

It took the same amount of time to read this as it took to consume the salted nut roll.

I still stand by the golf-ball-eating throne installed a few years ago. It still has never failed. The American Standard Champion 4:

Meet the Champion 4, the undisputed leader in high performance toilets. With the industry's widest 2 3/8" trapway and 4" flush valve, it created a plunger free world for homeowners and virtually eliminated clogged toilet call backs for plumbers. The Champion will move a mass 70% larger than the industry standard. It achieves the highest bulk removal rating of 1,000 grams and will even flush a bucket of golf balls!

video:
http://www.americanstandard-us.com/products/collection.aspx?d=1&c=66#video

It can also flush sliders, a bucket of childrens clay, a bucket of chicken nuggets, a bucket of cat litter, three cellphones, two washcloths, and I suppose whatever else might find its way into the bowl. videos prove it..

One additional secret is that the water falls through a big 4" opening from a substantially greater height than most toilets.

mega plumber action hero:
http://www.americanstandard-us.com/video/default.aspx?bclid=590068264001&bctid=507093228001&d=1

You said, "I axed him "
Did he survive?

 A littel further down the pipes...Best advice I received from the drain cleaning guy is to use Single-Ply paper. I tears up and not catch on roots in the tiles. Also, bleachie thingies put in the tank dry rot the rubber gaskets and o-rings causing leaks. I rebuilt old reliable six yrs ago.
 Yes, the eco-crappers are now much improved from the ones made in the 90's. I'll buy one now when my potty goes bad-order...73