The AM Forum

Nothing to do with radio....  I need to get another car.  My 1994 Lincoln with 200k miles is going to my 18 year old so he can have something safe and sturdy.  I've been needing to get a replacement anyway...

I usually like to go American, by the way, but there haven't been too many good offerings in the used market lately.  I already have an F350 Ford and the Lincoln. 

Am looking for something really sturdy, but with better gas economy than the old Lincoln.  Have been considering Saab and Volvo.  We already have a Subaru Forrester - great and strong car, but would maybe like to get something different

Before the Subaru, my wife and I looked at the Ford Taurus, but I hit my head on the celing of the car when I drove it (I have a very long back, and am tall to start with).  The Subaru has considerably more headroom, and is very sturdy, so we went with it.  So far, a great car (78,000 miles).  My wife was rear-ended very hard a few months ago.  The Subaru barely showed any damage, while the other car's whole front end was bashed in - radiator punctured, hood bent up - undrivable.  She was ok - very shaken up, but otherwise fine.  So, the Subaru has certainly show its sturdiness.

Can't afford new, so am looking for a used vehicle.

From my research, it seems as if Saab is not as reliable as it used to be.... so I started checking into Volvo.  A bit better, but still there seem to be a lot of consumer complaints about constant and EXPENSIVE repairs.  Notably, I've read about a lot of transmission problems, "computer" problems (check engine lights and the like) that can only be fixed at a Volvo dealer for BIG bucks.

Thoughts? Ideas? Experiences?

Thanks!

Steve

I don't Know Steve..I like them Cobalt series and the Cavilears it replaced...they ran well, bized down the road FB, and Gas not Bad...For Small cars that is...The Girls did well in them...we used up three....Women run to much... ;D

73
Jack.

We just bought a low mileage 06 Malibu from a Chevy dealer and gave our old Taurus wagon to our kid after his Saab crapped out for the final time. It's decent on gas and has a good crash rating, hopefully this car will be as reliable as the Taurus. I guess if money were no consideration I might take a look at the European stuff but I'm still committed to buying American made as much as possible.   

My wife had a 80s vintage Volvo. I never thought too much of it. It was under powered, bad in the snow (rear wheel drive) and VERY expensive to repair. We had to replace the alternator & starter on 2 different occasions & each trip was well over $500.00. We traded in the Volvo for a new Subaru Outback in 2000 & traded that in with 145,000 miles on it for a 2001 Infinity. The Subaru was very reliable & good in winter. Had to replace alternator, electric window switches, & moonroof seals. We will see how the Infinity holds up. That is all,over & out.

my parents have a Volvo and a sibling had a couple.  All have had repairs that were pricey.  Though very safe I wouldn't go with a one because of the experiences of my family members. 

How about a VW Jetta? We have  a 4dr here.  I'm tall like you and there's plenty of headroom and leg room for me. it's been very reliable for us and it seems sturdy and safe too. And with the standard 2.0L engine, it has plenty of get up and go. The only thing I don't like about it, it has an interference engine so a timing belt replacement is necessary at the recommended replacement interval and it isn't easy to do as a home mechanic and can be pricey as well.

Crown Vic P71 Police Interceptor.  23 MPG on my city/hwy commute, and good reliability (only issue has been coils, I've replaced 6 of the 8 in 180,000 miles).

All those taxi drivers and police depts can't be wrong  ;D

Steve,
I love my little Blue turbo charged PT Cruiser but the gas mileage sucks AND it needs premium.
BUT it kicks ass..... ;D

Our Friend Chip Fisher is a Volvo Guy. He can tell you anything you want to know.
Send me an e-mail off site and I'll put you guys together.
Keith

volvo=HOS I hear the yuppies at work P&M about repair prices. I took a ride one day in one and thought the seats hard. I think they are over priced crap boxes. Not the volvo of the past.
That Ford my Dad gave me is a great car and got over 24 MPG to Deerfield with a V8. 2003 Merc. G.M. I think it is a bit smaller than your Lincon. And I'm not a Ford Guy. My Dad hated front wheel drive and always a V8 guy so he went to Ford. I think his last one was a '36 or '38 that he flipped in front of the Capital in Hartford. He told me he rolled it back over and kept driving. He grew up a few blocks away.
I rented a Chevy Cobalt last month and drove to L.I. I had it going almost 90 and I was impressed with it. One of our Techs just bought a new Malibu and loves it. Gets over 30 MPG.
I rented a Hundai in LA last week and it was ok. 

steve stay the hell away from volvo.  6 monthhs ago I installed network cabling and a linux file server for the local volvo dealer.  had 25 clients and 20 of them were for the mechanics laptops.  Yeah thats right.. the finance and salse offices had 5 computers  for the handfull of office staff.   THEY HAD 20 FREAKING MECHANICS ON A 10 ACHRE CAR LOT WITH A 3 WEEK WAIT FOR AN OIL CHANGE. 

every bay was full and the service lot was packed.  all the cars on the lifts had half of the front end dissasemble for one reason or another.  And it wasnt a podunk lot it was the 2nd largest in baltimore

After that job no way in hell..

cobalts..  nice when they are new but many friends have owned them with not much luck in the long run... if you go chevy stick with the larger cars

love my dodges and by the way the Hemi's average about 27 hwy  in their cars.

for about the same price range as the volvos go with a bmw with the straight 6... those cars are what volvo used to be before the inventers of the pinto got hold of them

I love my Toyota Sienna. Made in America too.

Test drove a Volvo several years ago. The backseat was so small my 10 year old daughter complained about leg room.
I bought an Acura TL instead. Loved it. No problems, well thought out and very comfortable on a 90 mile commute each day. 27 mpg with auto and plenty of pep.

Am on my 2nd one and would buy another- new or used without a second thought.
73
Carl

Steve, opinions are like...well, you know what they are like.  ;)
If you want the facts, just IM me and I can supply you with all you want to know about Volvos.
We have a fleet of Volvos for service loaner cars, and I have been driving one myself since 1994.
Price vs. value, that's an equation that I know you can appreciate.  :D
Email is my call at arrl.net.


Cheers,
Bruce W1UJR
www.AtlanticMotorcar.com

I had a 99 Volvo S80 T6 (twin turbo) until six months ago.  It reminded me of the Grateful Dead lyric

Lovely to look at
Delightful to touch
It's just a shame she's got to cost so much
She wants money

I loved that car -- fast, comfortable (best seats ever) reasonable mileage,  huge trunk, and according to insurance figures one of the safest cars on the planet.

The '99 (first year) was a disaster for reliability.  I'll send you a spreadsheet of the repairs.  Staggering.  However, once nearly everything was replaced it became a very reliable car.  I would still be driving it but my wife Patty never forgave it for the error message "BRAKE FAILURE.  STOP IMMEDIATELY".  The brakes were fine, by the way.

Made-in-Michigan Mazda 6.

V6 and a 5-spd if you want some fun, 4 cyl and a 5 spd if you want fun and better MPG.

We have one of each.

I had two Volvos in years past.  a 1972 1800ES and a 1973 1800ES. Cool cars, a bit sluggish, and repairs were pricey even then.

Steve,
If you like the Subaru, why not get another?  We've had three of them in the family, the most recent a used purchase for the eldest son.  We crash tested two of them, including his recent encounter with a dear.  These are tough reliable cars with great safety ratings and AWD.  We did well last month finding him a used deal on one.  Just a thought..  ;)

I'd stick with something proven to work.

What kind of savings would you get from 25% better fuel economy and a 200% increase in repair items?

There are plenty of these FO MO CO rides on planet earth. They must be doing something right.

If you travel over the road and far away from the speciality shop run by ex-dealership mechanics a breakdown could get pretty ugly.

I'd stay away from that green color for the next car ;D That looks like a special order fleet color for the forest service. 

I have a Ford, had Chevys and other Fords, the best I have is an American made 1995 Honda Accord.    It has been maintained, a few repairs over the past 14 years, but it has been the best vehicle I have ever had, and the most reasonable repair costs.   If it ever craps out, I'll go out and get another one new.

Getting an opinion on cars is like asking what is the best religion.

Dave you should know I finally sent the 1988 Dodge Diplomat to a new home. It just didn't have the B-A's to pull the new boat. Some kid who likes hoopties bought it, with your repairs intact and holding well.  He will have fun.

About 20 years ago we bought a 1987 Mercury Sable (same as Taurus) brand new.  It was comfortable (don't remember hitting my head on a low ceiling), got fair gas mileage and didn't need too many repairs.  But it developed major engine problems at about 140K, so we got rid of it.

I have worn out three Toyota Corollas, and never got less than 190K out of any of them, although I had to rebuild the engine on one.  I did the work myself; that's when they made them so that you could actually get to everything, and it had electro-mechanical ignition.

We now have two Mazdas; a Protégé (now @ 150k) and a MPV van (my wife bought it and our son calls it the MenoPause Van) and it's at about 113K right now.  Both are still running great.  The little car gets good mileage, and the van, well it's a van, but very comfortable and a great hamfest vehicle.

I tend to buy a car brand new, or used with very low mileage, and drive it till it falls apart, like the Wonderful One-hoss Shay.  But I feel ripped off if I don't get at least to the ballpark of 200k out of a car before it turns to dust.

Our daughter bought a used Honda Accord, and she is at somewhere about 120k and it's still going strong, with minimal repairs and down time.

I hate to deal with car salesmen.  Most are assholes, and they force you to play that silly haggling game.  If I want to buy a new car, I shouldn't feel like I am buying a very expensive item at the Dayton flea market.  I like the way Saturn was said to do it; offer the car at a fixed selling price up front, take it or leave it, with no bargaining and haggling.  But I understand the whole "radical" Saturn concept was discontinued some time ago, and with the latest restructuring, the brand itself may disappear.

Two of my three used Corollas were purchased directly from previous owners and I did nearly all of my own repair work.

one thing to consider when looking for a used vehicle is to look at how old that generation is. Earlier generations of models may be plagued with new design issues where as later in a generation those bugs are worked out.

Steve
We parked our Honda Element and now driving either a 1997 Buick Regal (a give-away from my parents) with 109000 miles getting 27mpg or a 2003 Buick LeSabre with 72000 and getting 24mpg.
Highway driving these vehicles get around 30mpg. Seems to be a GM secret for reliability and good mpg. The Century is also a very nice ride and economy.
Volvos might be expensive to repair.

Fred

The problem seems to be the 'manufactured obsolescence' mentality of most companies now, preferring to change a proven design after a few years for the adult A.D.D. crowd who need the latest and greatest to keep up with their neighbors. My experience with Audi clearly reflects this. I owned an 80s model 4000 that I actually used for road rallies as well as daily driving. Minimal maintenance, cheap to fix when it did need fixing, $250K miles on it when I got rid of it. Far different than the 1997 A4 I drove for 3 years, also bought used. Couldn't keep it on the road, something broke every month. Simple things like the suspension were made needlessly complex so as to be 'more advanced' (read 'expensive parts, expensive to fix, defective from the start'). Other items like the timing belt system, particularly the tensioner, were done on the cheap, resulting in major engine repairs like valves etc when the tensioner or belt let go. Audi had class action suits against them for both of these items and finally had to settle, but fought it all the way despite their poor design choices. I loved my first Audi, now I twitch whenever I walk past one.

Steve, it looks like the overwhelming majority are advising and even warning you against it. I couldn't agree more. Unless you can afford to buy a new car with a warranty and SELL it before the warranty expires, you are asking for trouble. My sister and her family had Volvo wagons for a decade or so, starting with a new one when the kids were small. As they grew, space became a problem. I rode in the back seat once or twice, couldn't get out soon enough. 'Tight' doesn't really cover it. They traded the first wagon when repairs began piling up, for a 'newer' used version - something they came to regret many times over. Like me with the Audi, they found themselves having too much money sunk into repairs to sell it. And of course, it continued to break. Very expensive to maintain, and very labor/parts-intensive. Like Don, they had owned a Sable or Taurus wagon previously, and always missed it. Had 240K when they sold it to someone locally and was still on the road as of last year.

My advice - ask folks who have owned *used* models (ignore the ones who feel that name = status). Then ask mechanics who maintain a wide variety of vehicles, not simply Volvo and one or two other import brands. This will give you a far wider range of comparisons for value purposes. Far better than say, asking a used car salesman who sells Volvos. Something about 'vested interest in the outcome' and all that. I'll throw in with the Ford folks: great reliability and bang for the buck. Less of a fashion statement, no doubt.


I still remember the Mercedes Benz ad from the 80s-90s when the interviewer asked the M-B engineer what he thought about Volvo bragging about their energy/impact-absorbing design as if it was their idea, pointing out that M-B had in fact designed it. The engineer just smiled and replied "some things are too important not to share".  ;D


Ya think??  I threw in the towel before the complete rebuild of the Audi was realized. At least the new owner was left with only 25% or so of the parts to replace when they break. ;)

Steve

I remember Tom and Ray the car talk bros making some not so complementary remarks about the Volvo.  But why take my word for it.  Here's their Test Drive section:

http://www.cartalk.com/content/testdrives/

Just scroll down to the Volvo sect

Al

I'm not advising against a Volvo and I owned one for ten years.   I sure wouldn't buy a first model year, though.  The 99 T6 repair record reads like this: replace with updated part, change to new type of this, install new version of that.  A lot of big expensive stuff got done under warranty but some out of warranty.  Then in 2005 they finally finished the car.  It had zero problems for the next three years.  It had 120K  miles on it and looked and ran like a new car, no squeaks, no rattles, no leaks, no oil burning, no hard shifting, no dull paint, no funny things that don't work.

My wife, however, didn't trust it at all.  She seemed to be driving whenever the interesting stuff happened.  Since we're often on the road out here in the West, maybe between Nowhere, NV, and Nothingthere, AZ, she really didn't want to be in the car which in its youth had given us so much entertainment.  I couldn't talk her out of it so we let it go.

The word "Volvo" is a code word for "from away" in Maine.   The price/value equation will come down on the side of a better domestic car every time.    Of course you won't be able to fool us Mainiacs that you are a plaid jacket wearing college professor pseudo intelectual type if you're driving a Ford.

Steve,
Aren't u glad u asked.......... ::)

I think a Volvo is a terrible car. If anything breaks, and it will on a used one, it will cost big $. I always buy American cars, mostly GM, always used, and have very little trouble and low maintenance/repair costs.

There's a lot to be said for Chevies, Buicks, Fords, and the like... the aftermarket replacement/rebuilt parts are minisculy cheap in comparison to foreign makes, and they're generally much easier (i.e. less labor = less expensive) to replace.

Example:  had to replace the parking light lens on the Crown Vic when wifey nudged a post.  $10, new, on eBay.  Rebuilt alternator and starter for my Chevy pickemup - $30 each, and both have lasted more than 60,000 miles.  Brake rotors for the Crown Vic - $20 each.   Bazillions of these cars were made and support a healthy aftermarket.

I worked in an independent Jaguar shop when I was in college, and we took in odd strays like old buzzard Mercedes Benzes, Porsches, and I even worked on a Citroen SM once.   My unpleasant experiences there with poorly engineered designs (like dropping the rear axles to replace the inboard brake rotors on a Jag XJS), and dealing with the Foreign Auto Parts Mafia, have so far neatly quelled any small desire I've had to own a foreign car.

Dave W2VW pointed me once to a website, run by a ham who had some FT-1000 mods on it, which also had a whole litany of fixes for mid-90s Mercedes problems.  Now there's a clear example of a car that's 10X more complex than it ever needs to be.

That's the point - to have that much to deal with so early in a vehicle's life is never a good thing IMO. By the time they iron it out, most of it gets changed ('updated'). My '92 Ranger was still on the same engine at 200K, with no real problems beyond the Mazda tranny. At least the pos A4 was bumping 150K when it started falling apart, despite being dealer and Audi-authorized maintained all of its life. The maintenance folder was 2 inches thick with receipts. I can certainly sympathize with your wife, I ended up buying another vehicle and parking the Audi because I'd lost all confidence in its ability to do anything but break down and cost me money.


MrMike would agree with you on this. He's played with Crown Vics for ten years plus with very good luck. He gets 25mpg plus with his, but then again - he drives like a granny.  ;D  Had I known sooner that they really aren't gas hogs, you can bet I'd have been driving one. One of the true classic 'can't kill 'em no matter how hard you try' designs.


That was actually a pretty hot rear axle set up Jag had. You'd be surprised how many ended up and still end up in street rods. Not really too bad to drop as a complete sub assembly, but it's definitely a bit much to have to go through just to change a set of rotors. It did provide plenty of performance to offset that though, unlike so much of the crap on cars these days. No special 'dealer only' tools required, either. Parts. otoh...  :o

LOL. You mean like most Collins radios?

I'd echo the Crown Vic bit.   I have a 2003 Mecury version that is probably worth no more than two or three good Volvo repairs but it drives nice, drags the whole family on trips, and doesn't act much different than a new car (it only has 115K).  If I granny drive it I can get 25 MPG on the highway.   As much as I love it, next car will be a fuel sipper.   

I had a friend (SK) who bought nothing but Mercury Grand Marquis with 100K+ on them for next to nothing, and then put another 150K on them with minimal repairs.  Not for me though.  I only drive small cars with 5 speed manuals.

VW Jetta or wagon TDI.

45-50 MPG. In town, on the road or wherever. Plenty of torque and power. There's a used car lot across the street and I'm looking at a beauty right now from my office window. If only I had $9K burning a hole in my pocket...

Me too on the Crown Vic.  Mine is a 2001 and +100K.  I have my first repair coming up -- shocks and maybe a part of the steering.  Took it on a long trip and drove at the speed limit -- got 30+ MPG

Al

I waited a few days for the aftershocks to pass before posting.  ;)

As a one-time Volvo owner, I can say they are remarkably durable and rugged cars by virtue of their design.

They are also a maintenance headache by virtue of their design.

Volvo are very different in the way they build their cars. Yeah, they've got an internal combustion engine and a wheel at each corner, but their lines are unique, their parts are unique, and their footprint in this market is just small enough to make parts expensive.

Couple that with the fact that you really need a guy who knows Volvos working on it so certain idiosynchracies that all Volvos have aren't overlooked, and you're talking about a vehicle with an above-average maintenance price; both in terms of parts and labor.

Then it becomes a question of ROI. I think they're worth it for yourself or an elderly relative if you've got the money. If you're buying it for your kid and were planning on the two of you doing the maintenance in your driveway or otherwise on the cheap, look for something else.

My $0.02 USD.

I just bought a used 98 Mazda B4000 to replace my old  piss beat 250K mile 94 Ranger.  Anyone know anything about a the B4000 series?  If so, please PM me.  I have some questions related to it and I'd like to pick your brain.

I love Volvos--as long as they have a B-18 motor, but most of them have dissolved by now. 4 cyl, 4 speed, dirt simple . Forget the new stuff.
all the new stuff is big $ for parts.
Buy Amelican car--Buick LeSabre. I have 2, one for the winter (heater works), one for the summer (AC works)
Skip

Hey Ed the 2003 Merc G.M. my Dad gave me last year has 25K on it. Like a new car.  I was rolling down the road at 80 and still got over 24 MPG. I was told it really does well under 65. I'm not a Ford guy but it is a very solid car.
My only issue it it takes 6.8 quarts of Mobile 1 to do an oil change. I did move up to 10-30 oil. 5-20 is thinner than cat piss. Try packing 6 people in a Volvo like flying Delta.

Hey Bob,
I noticed the cookie sheet is still on the driveway where you parked the truck.
My brother had a B2000 truck years ago the rings got gummed up and it started to burn oil. he switched over to mobile 1 and cleared it out. He drove it about 200K.

If I were buying a new car, I'd buy a Chevy -- might as well patronize the company you own.  Besides, from what I've heard and read the Malibu is nice car.   But I'm not.

 Some euro manufacturers threw in the towel. Buy a vehicle with the cookie sheet already fitted underneath.

That's the model my wife drives. She won't drive my 1980 Fleetwood without an argument anymore. The Benz isn't too bad unless the evaporator core goes bad. Quietest car on the road. Gets 24 MPG minimum highway. See youtube for top speed videos.

You drove that Dip for a long time. Who says my JSs don't hold up? Do you carry a 10 ohm resistor in your toolbox now?

It all depends on what's important too you.  Cheap repairs=Lumina, Crown Vic, etc...fleet vehicles that have flooded the market and are fairly dependable.  If safety is your thing it is very hard to beat a Volvo.  If dependability is prime Honda/Toyota (although their parts and the cars themselves are overpriced because everyone wants one).  The most recent model Fords (almost new) have become very reliable and much to their credit it looks like Ford "got it" (specifically Americans don't want crap they want reliable good quality cars).  There are probably as many opinions on this as their are grains of sand on the beach.  My personal opinion is buy an "American" car if you like or "Import", but stay away from the fringes on both markets....Chevy Vega (ugh), Yugo, Jaguar, Karman Ghia, etc...  I hear the Volvo 740 is a very good used car.

Isn't Volvo a division of Ford?

Agreed, parts for Japanese cars ain't no bargain, either.

We've got two Fords and a Jeep in the driveway. Might be buying a used Lincoln pimpmobile for my teen-age son next week.

Kids these days don't want to be publicly seen in an SUV or mini van.

Isn't Lincoln a Ford with lock washers?

No doubt, here's the car for Steve.  America made, too.   

http://www.aptera.com/look.php

Nah. Carbon.

http://www.carbonmotors.com/

Them Cavilers I bought an taught my girls to drive on Bized down the road FB...easy to work on Cheap...inexpensive...might be hard to find those that got em keep em...LOL

Volvo...heck ya might as well buy an Audi... ;D

73
Jack.

I can't imagine the local gendarmes ever giving up their Crown Vics.
Ever.

Although I recently say a county mountie in a marked F-250 supercab pickup truck.
Why they need a 3/4 ton truck is beyond me, other than for the intimidation factor.

When Ford stops making them?

I got to sit in it. Shot this tape. Check out the diesel engine noise.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/tech/2009/03/20/carbon.motors.police.car.cnn

Feller got pissed when I said the grill emblem reminded me of Renault.

(http://www.renault.com/Style%20Library/Renault/Images/en-US/design/logo.jpg)

All it needs is a Para-Pack on the Back....Pro-Stock... ;D

73
Jack.

Yeah, I'm hoping the drip pan will go away with the new (used) truck I just picked up.  I've been using that pan to catch tranny fluid drips when the transmission shifter seals leaked on the ole Ranger. I replaced them a few years ago but never trusted the Mazda 5 speed tranny from that point on so I kept the pan there especially after the tranny ran dry and had been acting weird. Amazingly even after 240K plus miles the tranny sounds like heck but it never leaked. I'm delivering the ole Ranger to the local salvage yard next week.

A fine choice.  It runs on bio diesel.  Maybe Bill can help with the finer points like which is better, grease from a Mexican restaurant or from Chinese take out.

Ya know, we really have to start using energy sources that don't come out of the ground.

At some point we have to face the question:  What will our great-grand kids use for oil?

73, Karl

Their site is light on the technical details, avoids certain direct answers, and seems a little condescending. Expensive, and you have to get it serviced in the PRK.

# What is the final cost?

   1. The Aptera 2 Series vehicle (electric and hybrid) will range in price from $25,000-$40,000 depending on options and powertrain.

# Does the vehicle have air conditioning and heat?

   1. Yes, air conditioning and heating are available. Our solar assisted climate control uses energy captured by solar cells embedded into the roof to aid the conventional climate control system that is standard on the vehicle.

That roof's got to be 2 square yards at best.. I am sure the additional 100 watts of electricity from the solar panels is really going to spin up the air conditioner really gooder! And that is likely the $40K version that has the "available" A/C.. The "conventional climate control system that is standard.." is probably what we call the "vent" in a regular car. If I am wrong, they can prove me wrong.

Yeah, but Steve would look good in it (if he could fit).

Naahhh... I'm looking for used !  I can't afford anything new, but even if I could, I'd go used anyway.  The depreciation of a new car in the first couple of years is amazing!!!!!  :P

I personally question Ford's wisdom in killing off what possibly is the most commonly used fleet vehicle on the planet but they seem to have a plan to redefine and "reinvent" themselves that looks like it's working so who am I to question it?

Steve,

When asked about this sort of thing I often reply " any new car is good ".
That applies to any car with less than about 40kmi... they all seem good.
You start culling the herd as the milage goes up.

The price point is proportional to the milage.

So, the question really is what is your price point going to be.

If you want the ultimate reliable car, great for winter, and almost indestructable engine and tranny it is Subaru. I've run several over 200kmi, rust killed 'em.

If you want a high mpg car then ur into stuff like a Ford Focus, Toyota, Nissan, Honda - the smaller cars in their line.

Nissan engines just don't last like a 'baru... No one I know has had any fun with an older (hi mileage) Toyota or Honda. That's over 150kmi. The Accord is a great car to drive, imho. They made a wagon, if you can find one.

The VW diesel is like gold. Try to find one. Smallish though... great mpg.

I can't stand most American cars, I find them to be made funny, they don't "fit" my body at all, and stuff seems to break off and turn to ugly crap (the plastic you know...) after only a few years, when the import stuff still looks ok... I drive them as rentals, have yet to find one that I got out of and lusted for. Ok, I didn't rent the big full size cars, or a Crown Vic...

Some of the small compact "SUV" type vehicles seem nice, but not so great on gas - but neither is a full size Lincoln... maybe that's the ticket for you?

              _-_-bear

Ok, here's another one - why are there so darn many SILVER cars out there?  I can't stand silver  ;)  (at least on cars).

There seem to be millions silver cars out there on the used market.  Silver and also Black.  Neither of which I have any affection for whatsoever.  Looking around, it definitely does seem to be the most popular color (silver).  What gives?

Still looking :-)

Regards,

Steve

I'm with you on silver.  The evidence is, however, that we're a minority. Most people like it. I read somewhere that silver is the number one color for cars. I'm not with you on black.  I think black cars look great (for 15 minutes after you wash them) and are just fine (as long as you don't drive them during the summer).

Wait.  I just figured it out.  Those are the only colors people understand.  I looked at a new car brochure not too long ago. The colors are ones we didn't have in the Crayon box -- "silver pine mica", "wave line pearl" and "sandy beach metallic."  What the heck are those?  But there was also just plain black. 

Whales?

There are known reserves of oil good for at least 100 years. We aren't going to run out of oil in our grand children's lives.

With the amount we've already pumped out...and additional huge reserves found all the time...it makes one wonder if it's really fossil fuel at all.   

            Hr is the Dope OM',                                           

Update:  Well, I finally got a car  8)

I ended up getting a 2006 Volvo XC90 (AWD)  5 cylinder with 40k miles in excellent condition.

Nice thing about the car - I got the Volvo - covers everything except wear items - warranty good until *2014* (or 100k miles).  Since I only drive about 10k - 12k miles per year (My current car - a 1994 Town Car bought in 1996 with 30k miles has 187k miles on it!), the warranty makes very good sense.  Also covered is corrosion (body rot) for something like 14 years, and any dings, dents, scratchs, interior damage, etc. is covered (with a $100 deductable) until 2013.

I looked at a *LOT* of cars - drove a lot of cars, crawled under a lot of cars, read a lot of reports, and ended up liking the XC90 the best.

The warranty was a major factor.  So was the headroom (I am very tall in the torso).  I hit my head (or come close) in many modern automobiles.

A lot of folks here answered questions and provided information - and I thank everyone who helped me !!!!  I buy cars very seldomly, and like to do moocho research. 

I'm also very much into safety (hence the Lincoln Town Car - very safe, and now the Volvo, also very very safe).

I was able to access all of the Volvo dealer service records (thank you Bruce for this bit of advise) for the car - every oil change, part replacement, etc. was available - a complete history.

(http://www.classeradio.com/volvo.jpg)

Anyway, that's it !   Again, thanks to everyone who helped me in this effort.  I really appreciate it !

Regards,

Steve

Good deal.

My daughter bought a used Honda and all the service history on it was on the computer at the local dealer.

It's good to have that data on hand.  Without it, paying anywhere near book value is a crap shoot, since you don't know if the previous owner might have run 20K miles without changing oil or neglected other maintenance.

I get about as much thrill out of car shopping as I do clothes shopping.

Don said:
At least it does something for you. I think I would rather jump face first into a field of cactus then try to buy a car. Completely abhorring! Steve, I'm curious as to how the ride is. Back in the early '90's when I was road meat, I got a rental every week. My boss told me to rent a Volvo should I have the chance, (that was all he owned). I found the suspension stiff and the passenger/driver compartment rather compressed and boxy.

Sweet ride Steve, you're really going to love it!
Cool XC90 site -->>http://www.swedespeed.com/gallery/gallery2.php?mode=album&album=/FWD%20and%20AWD/XC90

I've had my XC90 for 45K trouble free miles, just a wonderful vehicle.
Only thing that I don't love is the fuel econ, I have the twin turbo model, but that's only a hassle on trips, I live
5 miles from my office.

Great for hauling back all of those boat anchors! (and clip leads)



(http://www.swedespeed.com/gallery/generated//FWD%20and%20AWD/XC90/Ocean%20Race%20Edition%20(2007%20Facelift)%20-%20EU/002__scaled_600.jpg)

(http://www.swedespeed.com/gallery/albums//FWD%20and%20AWD/XC90/Technical/011.jpg)

Seems about the same as my Lincoln (about 20 around town).   It should end up being better than that.  The Lincoln has a V8 and the Volvo has the 5 cyl, and the Lincoln is a really big car.... but, I'll have to see.  I'll be happy if it's up there around 22 or so.

I seem to get better MPG than the "ratings" for all the cars I drive.  Comes from driving like an old buzzard, I guess  ;D :D 8)

If you have a doubt about the durability of the Volvo engine, check this "Cash For Clunkers" video as they try to destroy a Volvo engine with silica and water in place of engine oil.  :o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waj2KrKYTZo

Oh man!!  :o

First off, it's missing a whole cylinder! What's that 5 cylinders????
What did they do with the 6th? I mean really, that's like those half gallons of ice cream that suddenly became 1.65 liters instead of a half gallon, for the same price!!

Then, on top of that you go and buy a SILVER car??

This can't be good...

Ok, maybe if you get some flames put on the sides, or maybe big stripes up the hood and roof? How about a big round white dot with a racing number in the middle, like "73"??

Alright, alright, we can forgive you for both the yuppified Volvo ride, Steve, AND the silver car that is missing the cylinder (what else did they leave out?), the leather seats (are they heated?) IF and only if you put a man's ham radio antenna on it!!!

10-4 gud buddy?  ;D

                  _-_-bear

Interesting video Bruce. I've always held the Volvo brand in high regard. Maybe it's just me, but that sure looks like a complete waste of a nice vehicle. It's not the image I have of what a clunker looks like...

Yep, let's pay people to take perfectly good cars off the road. Seems "green" to me.  ::)

Good point, Jay. They're finding wells they thought were pumped dry in the 50s full of oil again. Can you say renewable resource(even if I can't spell it!)?

I dunno, Steve...

We had a broadcast from a Denver car dealer last week..I was looking for a trade-in deal for grins..A sales guy told me to check out their back lot..You should see the wrecks and beaters people are trading in!  No one is trading in anything that has much value. Rotted out old Ford Broncos, pickup trucks, Caddys, rusted out vans...Smoke-belching Junk.

Turns out that they have to junk the trade-ins, I couldn't buy one anyway.

My brother-in-law works for a car dealer. Most of the trade-ins there were less than 10 years old. Quite a few people were there to scam the system (trade in a POS they weren't even driving), and then take the car and resell it at a nice profit. A big waste if you ask me. But it is a nice feel good measure, much like the Depression Era programs.

What really bums me out is the fact that the trade-in engines have to be destroyed and not recycled.

Check this out from the WSJ:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124934376942503053.html

That just makes me sick... deliberately destroying engines, instead of selling them to rebuilders. I hope at least they will be melted down into patio furniture or something.

Speaking of silver cars, has anyone ever noticed that their drivers are always the last to turn on headlights in dusk, rain or foggy conditions? I hypothesize that the purchasers want to keep a low profile, but it seems that they do not want to be seen at all! Once on a long boring drive I counted 100 cars without headlights on in the rain and spraying mist - and silver was the most common color by at least a factor of three.  ???

For the 3 billion they dropped into this for the intent of "greenness" and possibly spurring the economy, will it really amount to anything? I tend to doubt it if one does the math.  It amounts to less than 0.3% of the registered vehicles in the US that will be traded in or 660,000 vehicles traded in.

They have to destroy the engines.  But what about the transmissions and other components of the power train?  And wheels, body parts and trim? Except for newer models totalled out in crashes, the engine is often the last thing to be pulled out of a worn-out car at the junk yard.

This idea started in Germany.  There, there wasn't any fuel efficiency incentive. It was based on the age of the car only. The goal was simply to stimulate  the sales of new cars.  They were trashing perfectly good VW's, Porsches and BMW's.

Environmentally, it takes more energy and resources, and produces more carbon,  to build a new car from scratch to unnecessarily replace an old one before its natural demise, than the extra fuel and CO2 the old one would have consumed and produced in the remainder of its lifetime compared to its replacement.

Reminds me of the 50's campaign to crush surplus vacuum tubes, allegedly to keep them from falling into the hands of rebranding racketeers, and carbon filament light bulbs to prevent them from generating TVI.

Hopefully, most of the "clunkers" traded in will be real junk, fit for nothing else but the metal crusher anyway.

One thing I like about the US program is the 20-year limit on the age of the clunker.  That means people won't be dragging out classic cars and antiques that they just had never got "round to" restoring, or that would be valuable to a collector.

One of the reasons there are so few classic pre-WW2 cars still in existence is the scrap metal campaign during the War.  People couldn't get gas, oil or tires for their Model A's and Model T's, so they decided to be patriotic and send them to the metal recycler to help out the war effort rather than just letting them sit around waiting till the War was over.  Many a perfectly good classic car was melted down as a result of that campaign.

At least, this "stimulus" money is going to individuals who might actually need a better car, not to the same CEO's and corporations that tipped the first dominoes to begin with.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/0,1518,623362,00.html

Nice Car Steve I Like it... :)

But as far as this green thing ..wattif I don't wanna be green ,..Maybe I Like Blue or Purple-Black..;D...maybe I like the smell of the air driving past the Coke Works down in Clariton...Smells like fresh creosote...I don't wanna Car that Blows bubbles man.. I want Smoke... ;D....That New Camaro gots sum possibilities .. 8)

It's getting Harder and Harder to be a Shade Tree Piston Head... ;D..Heck Now there's Talk about doen Motor Bikes In...with their processed engines and exhaust...Boooooooooo... 8)

73
Jack.

Wait until they get to your small engines like a weedtrimmer, chainsaw, lawnmower and lawn tractor.

Hope they're not smart enough to get to nitro fueled model car and airplane engines......

 "  At least, this "stimulus" money is going to individuals who might actually need a better car,"

I hope its not the people who wanted a house, and with Fannie May and Freddie Mac, bought one they could not a ford.


klc

I have rebuilt seized engines before.

Disassemble, hot tank all the parts, an .030 bore, machine the crank..New oversize bearings, valve guides.
What's the problem? You'd have to do that stuff anyway.

Nice pun!
I'm not going to touch that, lest we cross the line of allowable topics here.
Suffice to say that chances are most of the clunkers are paid for and have no loan.
I'm not sure, given the housing mess mentioned, that encouraging people to take on a $20 or $30k debt is the wisest or most responsible move.
Then again, responsibility is not a term well understood by those in the nation's capital.
And that's all I'm going to say about that.

As others pointed out, it does seem like quite a waste.
Perhaps we should send those "clunkers" off to Mexico or China, might help our trade balance!  ;)

Now back to our regularly scheduled program.

And to add to Bruce's comment, a quote from Mark Twain,

 "Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself."

I guess we can draw comfort from this since we have survived such idiots for a number of years. 

More on topic for this website, how many of you remember the RCA advertising campaign that used Twain's, "the reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated" to suggest that the end of the vacuum tube was not yet at hand?  I remember seeing that large poster ad in Helwick's Electronics in Gulfport, MS when I went there with my father as a fairly young child.  Just like surplus radios, that parts store had a special aroma I will always remember.

Rodger WQ9E

Alright, alright, we can forgive you for both the yuppified Volvo ride, Steve, AND the silver car that and is missing the cylinder (what else did they leave out?), the leather seats (are they heated?) only if you put a man's ham radio antenna on it!!!........

Steve - here's an idea for a mobile antenna for that class E setup...Thule bike carrier acts as an elevated mount for whip of your choice.   I use  not too manly (but low hamsexy factor) Hamstick knockoffs..they are not that great on 75/80 but kick ass on 40 and up on the Thule mount.  It would work well on the XC90 to get the antenna up and away from the car without running into overhead clearance problems you will have with a roof mount on a tall ship SUV like yours.  The mount pivots away from the car to access the tail gate (and to shift to NVIS propagation mode support)

The Volvo 5 cylinder engines actually run quite smooth.  And the heated leather seats are FB OM as well. 

Chris, AJ1G

Now that's a "Man-Tenna"!

The yellow "WAVE GUIDE - DO NOT STRIKE" labels on the sides of the Thule box tube add at least 6 dB!

Only drawback of this setup is that I have to take it off when I want to tow the utility trailer - I think you can get the Thule carriers with a "pass through" base that supports using the hitch with the carrier still installed.

I run a bike mount like that with a bracket added to hold my BB3 screwdriver antenna in a similar fashion. With a 108 inch whip on top of that it's a serious antenna. Works well down on 40 and 75 meters!

Now if I can just get rid of the dang fuel pump noise....

Wow, nice antenna setup, Chris ! 

Yeah, yeah, yeah.... The picture does look silver, but the car isn't silver - it's "willow metalic green"   :D  (which has a lot of silver color in it!).

But, for whatever it seems hard to photograph the color accurately.  Here is a silver XC90 and a willow green XC90 next to each other.
(http://www.classeradio.com/volvo_silver.jpg)(http://www.classeradio.com/volvo_green.jpg)

I just can't picture Steve driving anything other than his Town Car  :'(

An article in the local newspaper to-day stated that the engine in a clunker trade-in has to be destroyed, but the rest of the car may be "recycled".

Yeah, but you know - it's still a boat!  The Volvo (amazingly) weighs _MORE_ than the Lincoln !

The Lincoln's GVW is around 5500 Lbs, and the Volvo's GVW is 6005 pounds!!!  Yet it's a smaller car, physically - not as long or as wide, and the engine is smaller (the Linc has that big V8 in there - and it is a big one as opposed to the Volvo's 5).

Not sure where all the extra weight comes from, but the thing sure is HEAVY  8)

Regards,

Steve

I just got back from a car event, Hot August Nights in Reno, where I hung out with my buddies, the service manager of a Chrysler dealership and the parts manager of Nissan dealership. They were both showing beautiful vintage cars.  I asked them all about the CFC program.  Greg, the service manager, had personally done in 17 cars.  Indeed, they do sell the "clunker" to salvage yards for almost nothing, $100.  He thinks they're the guys making out like bandits.  Had he destroyed some cars that really pained him?  Yes, a couple.  He mentioned a beautiful 1999 Grand Cherokee. The other I've forgotten.  "Most, though, were like that" he said as he pointed to a really rough looking old Dodge Caravan minivan, paint gone to hell, cracked tail light.

I have a 1995 Honda Accord.    I can't profit from the clunkers because it gets 33 mpg already.    I don't know of a car that can meet the clunkers law that I would want to replace it with.    Anyway it still runs fine and has about 100000 more miles to go.

Actual difference is about 350 pounds. Scroll down and view curb weight for both vehicles.

GVWR is total weight vehicle can carry plus vehicle weight. SUV's must have a greater GVW to beat gas guzzler tax. Stupidity brought to you by US government.

Volvo specs:

http://autos.pressdemocrat.com/6282-YV4CY592261255319/Volvo/XC90/listingOverview.aspx

Lincoln specs I'm not sure of your year and exact model and if funky green paint makes a difference:

http://lincolnbuyersguide.theautochannel.com/vehicles/new/reviews/1999/lweitzman_lincoln_town_car.html

Gee Chris, is he actually calling your ride "girdle", or did he mean "girly"?  ;)
Knowing Ed's sense of humor, and he has a good one, I think he intended to say "girly".
Which would be right, for are not most modes of transport, plans, ships, cars given a female pronoun?

No matter what, your antenna sure looks a lot more robust than the ham stick I used on my car.
Just needs an American flag on top, and a nice neon bulb for when you transmit.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled program.

At least my setup doesn't have hamsexy stuff like gigantic triple mag mounts and multiple guy lines to hold the antenna from whipping all over the place! That behavior is why I don't use Hustler top laded  mobile antennas (at least while underway).  Those big loading coils up so high on the whip just move around too much for my liking....