The AM Forum

Now that the Broadcasters are "supposed" to vacate the frequencies below
7.200 i( In March 2009?) isn't it a good time to establish an AM  frequency
in this part of the band??? I would suggest 7.190...This would be available to
all class licenses and would be in the range of frquencies that the Europeans can
operate.....
I just think this would be a good time to try it....and I guess it's just wait and see
if the Broadcast actually goes away....
Frank
K3SQP

I'd certainly be game for that, Frank. Ralph W3GL, myself, and a few others have operated on 7.150 with great success. Hopefully the FBC stations will vacate when they're supposed to, and hopefully more AMers will get on the air to make some noise.

Looking forward to working you and your sidekick again soon, once everything here is set back up in 4 Land. I always enjoy our chats, regardless of the band. Maybe it's the suspense of hearing what you've hauled out of the barn lately?  ;D

Hey Todd,
I  see you are still The Voice of Vermont....I thought that would be up for grabs....( or auction)
I think  a Band warming weekend would be a great  way to announce an AM presence in
that  part of the band...A  fleet of tall ships would be nice....and if the  broadcasters
are actually gone its   "free at last"  "free at last"...
I'll be in California and radioless for 6 weeks so I'll leave you in charge....
Frank
K3SQP

I agree !   http://amfone.net/Amforum/index.php?topic=17019.msg117547#msg117547 (http://amfone.net/Amforum/index.php?topic=17019.msg117547#msg117547)

I'm certainly in favor of this as well!  As you all probably know from my 7290 thread, I have been trying to get some AM going on 40.  There is actually a "7290 traffic net" on ssb there in the mornings/early afternoons. *gasp*

Anyway, there is often quite a bit of ssb activity around 7190 as well.  I say let's just USE it as much as possible with AM (if the frequency is clear of course!).  Nighttime as well as daytime offers some great AM opportunities on 40 meters.  In fact nighttimes long propagation actually offers some exciting AM opportunities!  With the the broadcast stations vacating, let's take advantage!  I'll participate!

this is KX5JT John

Good point, completely forgot about that tag line. It's actually one of the monikers of AM 550 WDEV, Vermont's first station. It got hung on me back in the 80s by my friend Ray KC1BT while he was helping me pick up the KW-1 at the antique shop. His dad built the three large Eiffel-type towers at 'DEV after the '37 hurricane took down their single tower and Ray became a BC engineer. As the two of us were laying the thing down on a piece of plywood to heft up into the back of his truck, he said words to the effect of 'This thing'll run as much power as a lot of local AM stations, and more than some. From now on we're gonna call you The Voice of Vermont'. Then Irb reinforced it after a friend of his who he called the same thing (Blownaway Bob, I think) went to the big hamshack in the sky. I never flogged it for attention, and it never got me any dates, but...how much do you think it'd bring on ebay?  ::)


"that part of the band" being the key phrase. The idea being to get folks to operate in different areas and to avoid the frequency-ownership mentality is key. There was a lot of 80m hoopla for the first bandwarming party, then many lost interest and scurried back to a single frequency/'window' approach. But a good number stayed down in the 80m portion to enjoy great operating conditions. Let's hope the same for 40 meters.


That wouldn't be a good idea on a GOOD day, Frank. And now, with no aerials in the air - who will keep the huge masses there in line in your absence?? I know - let's get Russ! He and Bill can tag team. ;)

Have a safe trip, hope to work you soon.

I don't recall much "scurrying" going on. I recall a bunch of people started operating in both the 3885 and 3725 regions, some people finding 3725 boring and moving on with their lives, while some stayed solely in the 3725 region and accused the rest of being too regional.

"Window mentality" applies to both groups, you just picked a different window, and it's no better or worse than the old one.

As far as taking up vacated 40M space with AM goes, I'm all for it. It's about time we actually got to use a band that's allocated to us!

'Scurrying' probably wasn't the best choice of words, since it's difficult to scurry in the RF sense of the word. "Moving on with their lives" sounds so much better. And catchy!  :D It fits in well with what I was referring to, about the numbers of people who tried out the new phone portion of the band, then 'moved on' or back to where they had been. You might want to wander down that way again though, Tom, and listen around. 3725 (single frequency) has and had been used by the VE crew long before we were permitted there, and still is. AM activity can be heard on many frequencies between 3675 and 3740 fairly often. Also in the lower portion of 3800. Perhaps not in the numbers crammed between 3880-3885 many evenings, but those operating elsewhere are helping to alleviate the crowding there while also providing an AM presence elsewhere in the band. Along the lines of 'in addition to' vs. 'instead of'.


I don't see that at all, Tom. The original 'window' idea referred to a small number of frequencies, generously described as being between 3870-3885. Other than the 'DUQ What's For Dinner net and the Canadian group, operation in the 80m portions seems to run more to using any open frequency vs. one or two particular ones.

The 'Window Mentality' also refers to the pleas from some to 'defend the AM Window or we'll lose it to the SSB crowd' and such. I've yet to see (and hope to never see) a band plan with AM restricted to only a certain few frequencies that we're expected to stay within while others are not expected to respect it. It wasn't so long ago that we heard the AM haters telling us to 'get back to 3885 and stay there'. In my opinion, we do more harm than good to AM by painting ourselves into a corner with voluntary segregation. With AM showing up all over the bands, it's easier for AM to been seen for what it is: simply another available mode, not a 'specialty' requiring special treatment. Again, this is only an opinion; to consider any available frequency vs only a certain few.


That's the spirit! 'Use it or lose it' applies to some extent not because we can legally be excluded, but more because we give the naysayers the impression we don't belong there by not making use of the spectrum. If AMers insist on having 7290 as the center of their universe, the anti-AM crowd will be only too willing to oblige (and still crowd in). The issue of frequency ownership is a double-edged sword, after all.

I think this is a great idea but first let us use 7290 and 95 I am on there a lot but  I dont hear anyone. We are sure not wareing out upper 40, and I cant see how propagation is any better on lower 40.

What ever happened to the 7200 movement?  I seem to recall a couple of years ago several folks were talking about using 7200 as an AM calling freq.  I even got a crystal for 7200, but never heard much AM activity there.

There has been a certain amount of effort on the part of an SSB "dead freq net"  to take over 7290.  I hate to see them win out, cause that has been an AM hangout for a long time.  7295 may be pushing the bandwidth envelope to stay within the band if you are running HI-FI, however, there has traditionally been a lot of AM activity on that freq. over the years, as well.  I'm not aware of anyone getting in trouble for out-of band operation for operating AM on 7295.

7190 tends to have quite a bit of SSB activity, but it is certainly not a bad suggestion to establish some activity in the lower segment of the 40M fone band.

40M is still a great band!!

73,  Jack, W9GT

7200 was used by some AMers in W. PA and Ohio during the last sunspot cycle.   At that time 40M was a regional band and there was no skip zone during the daytime.    Since the demise of sunspots those hams are not able to communicate on 40M anymore.    I have not heard those guys for many years.   I don't think they get on the other bands too much.   WN3B was one of the powerhouses on 40M from PA.

I recall some dead-air SSB group's conflict with a late-night AM group on 7160 about 25 years ago.  One of the members of the group was some asshole in Texas by the name of Prechtl (don't remember his callsign).  He happened to have originally been from MD, and was a longtime buddy of Johnny Johnston.  In response to the 7160 conflict, sometime in the early 80's he submitted another of many petitions the FCC had received over the years requesting to outlaw AM.

The FeeCee sat on his petition for years with no action.  When the petitions for reconsideration regarding the AM power issue were submitted, suddenly they decided to conveniently pull out that old petition and give it a RM- number.

At the FCC Forum at Dayton that year, Johnny Johnston was the speaker.  His leading comment was a piss 'n moan about how the amateur community was overwhelming the FCC and wasting their precious time with superfluous rulemaking petitions.  "You guys are really giving your word processors a workout", he said.

He then went on to use the AM power issue as an example.  His  comments went something like this:

"On the one hand we have a petition from the ARRL to change the rules to allow stations using AM to run twice as much power as everybody else.  And then we have this guy down in Texas named Prechtl who wants to eliminate AM altogether."

What he was referring to was the ARRL's Petition for Reconsideration that requested to make permanent the 7-year grandfather clause of the 1 KW AM power limit.  This was very typical of  the deceptive spin Johnston would put on any issue that didn't conform to his agenda. Of course, he was implying that both petitions were superfluous, and that the FeeCee would choose the sensible option of taking no action on either petition.

I recall another speech by Bill Cross (who was Johnston's assistant at the time, and who later replaced Johnston when he retired) on the  same topic, and he managed to refer to Prechtl by his first name.

Later, I ran into Cross after the forum and we began discussing some rulemaking issue (don't remember if it was related to AM power or not), and Cross sort of laughed it off, saying that was an old petition that dated back years ago.  When I remarked that so was Prechtl's, he made a sheepish facial expression and didn't say anything in response.

Well, Todd... you can't argue with numbers.

I had a blast with you guys last year, and it was certainly a breath of fresh air, but the majority of AM traffic still takes place around 3885. That's where you tend to bump into people you've never worked before.

You, Gary, Steve, Buddly, Jay, Jack, and a few others were always great to talk to, but outside the occaisional visit from Elevator Dave, there wasn't much for visitors. Sometimes that's just what you want, sometimes not.


I have listened down there (what little I can go into the shack in these liquid-nitrogen temperatures we've got up here). I hear VE6PG (Hi, Tim!) and friends during the late afternoons, but not much in the evening. I do still catch Don down there, but quite often below 3700, therefore outside my license priveledges.

In fact, I've specifically listened for the crowd we had going down there last winter, but haven't heard much of you guys at all. Maybe I'm just listening at the wrong times.


I agree, and they certainly can't complain about all the AM carriers suddenly showing up on 40 meters. It'll be like a vacation for everyone compared to the cacophony of 50kW+ AM carriers there today!

It's a great time to do it, too. With the sunspot count this low, 40 meters has some very unique propagation modes at night. A very unique opportunity is about to present itself, and we should all (I mean "all" as in "all hams regardless of mode") take advantage of it.

Now, if I only had an antenna whose 40M pattern didn't resemble a westbound cigar with butterfly wings!

--Thom
Killer Agony One Zipper Got Caught

A n00b question, and a bit off topic:

It seems like the BC stations start to come in around 3PM on 7285, 7290, & 7295.  Also, it seems like stations try to compete with the BC stations on the same freq, until they give up.  Wouldn't it be better to move in between the BC stations than try to compete, or does this strategy not work?  (Obviously, it may not work for crystal control, but let's assume VFO operation.)

If you zero beat a BC station all you have to put up with is the audio, and if the station isn't too strong that will work. If you try and get in between them you will be hearing 2 2.5kc heterodynes - plus the audio!! True, you can narrow your receiver down which would help with one of the heterodynes but it will still be noisy and then the station you want to hear will sound like crap.

Which is kinda my point: Encouraging folks to crowd into a 10-15 kcs chunk of spectrum when most of them are running at least 6 kcs signals never made sense to me. It shouldn't be about some specific frequency. And rather than an either/or choice, spread out and use it all.


That's probably it. I was listening to Steve, Derb, and a good group down there in the last week. I also hear Al, Donovan, Dave (in NS), Karl, John, Frank, Slab, Jerry, Stu, Joe, Herb, Bob, and many others down there regularly. Like 40 meters, listening for vs. creating activity probably plays a role as well.


40 has certainly had its issues over the last year or two. Going forward I don't think we'll need to work about any particular frequency as much as getting people on the air to operate. K4OZY was over here yesterday afternoon figuring out the best layout and location for the conduit and sub panel for the new radio room, hopefully I'll be back on the air myself in the next month. Not as cold down here (teens-twenties) as up north, but still the coldest it's been in 10 years they're saying. Geographically, it makes no difference - outside work is no fun in the cold.

Called CQ Am last nite on 7190Khz till I was blue in the face.
Clear frequency for more than an hour.
1 qso with a slopbucket. Nice qso but he didn't wanna do AM.

Hey Buddly - What time were you on?  I will keep a listen over the weekend. What was the propagation like? Long skip?

9:30ish Dave. Long band. Worked EA3JE on 7189 at 6 P.M. tonite.

About time for this soon?

Isn't this suppose to happen soon?

That should make 40 meters a very interesting band. Should be fun!

Just finished up a nice QSO with Don, K4KYV and Bernie, W8RPW on 3685 kHz. There's plenty of activity in that part of the band. If there isn't call CQ.

Maybe the time has come for our very own 40M AM "Dead Air" net group
on 7190.  We can even write and have a silly preamble intro.  When any SSB station wanders in
we quickly get on and inform (scold) them of our "Net" and that we've been here dutifully guarding the "Net" since, oh, saaaay
1954 or so.  Exact date is up for debate.  Don't let this opprotunity slip away (again).
 ;)

I'm of the opinion that spreading out and using any open frequency has done more to enhance AM than anything else. Most afternoons and evenings you can find 3-5 AM QSOs below 3750. The more AM is heard around the bands, the less it is seen as some 'specialty' or exception to normal modes. 2 days ago I was listening to an SSB group around 3738 when one of the guys asked another where he'd been lately. The guy responded that he'd been spending more time listening to and operating AM and was having a good time with it.

A regular presence below 7200 would go a long way toward improving AM on the 40m band.

 

I think that we should try to operate more around 7190, since there will be no FBC stations there, and all license classes plus the Europeans (if I'm right) can use that frequency. 7290 and 7295 are good during the day, but that part is full of FBC stations at night and will be after the move out of the 7100-7200 part of the band. So most nighttime activity should be around 7190 and could possibly go down as far as 7180. Another thing is that the ARRL also uses 7290 as their phone bulletin frequency for 40 meters.
Shelby KB3OUK

At 9:45 PM EST, for a few minutes, each evening.

I've been listening to the FBC stations below 7.2 and as of today  haven't seen
any movement. I just hope the stations  now below 7.2 don't just QSY up to further
screw up the band between 7.2 and 7.3...If this happens then the 7.190  slot would
be a good  fallback freq. ( to start with)...; We shall see.

Frank
K3SQP

Last night between 7 and 8 there was no activity at all on 7290 or 7190, no FBCs or ssb

Most  should move above 7300.  Those frequencies are now formally reallocated to broadcasting by the ITU.  Until recently, the broadcasters operating up there, including WBCQ, have been unofficially using the frequencies as "outbanders".  That's the reason CHU moved up the band; their old frequency was reallocated as a broadcast channel. Moscow was on 7335 the other night.

But even if some of the broadcasters do move up into 7200-7300, that portion of the band is pretty well a lost cause during the evening hours anyway, so a little more congestion would be no great loss, and would certainly be a worthwhile trade-off for broadcast-free conditions on 7100-7200.

But I am wondering how many broadcasters will actually move out of 7100-7200.  I suspect many will drag their feet as long as they can; given the worldwide economic crisis, budgetary constraints will be a convenient excuse.  I seriously doubt that anyone is going to send troops into Berzerkistan to force its radio station to QSY.

And, it's a pity that when the US phone bands were expanded, that the 40m allocation wasn't extended down to 7075 or at least to 7100.

If I'm right, the area above 7300 is for fixed services, which also means that usually the stations there stay on their frequency, instead of jumping around. CHU didn't really have to move the whole way up to 7850, they could probably found an unused frequency between 7400 and 7550.