The AM Forum

Welcome back to 1958 all over again.  I took a week and made my last ditch effort in trying to get an antenna system up so that I could receive OTA TV from the "local" Pittsburgh Pa stations.  I took down the 30 foot tower last week and removed the UHF/VHF antenna that was at 34 feet and moved it down to a side arm position so that I could get the VHF stations until the transmitters go dark in February.  The tower needed some new paint so that was first on the list.  I installed a Ham III rotor at the 22 foot level with 21 feet of 1-1/4' pipe/mast on top of that with a pair of Channel Master 4228's and preamps at around 42 feet.  This all comes into the house using coax cable rated & swept for 3.2 ghz.  So for all of this effort channel 4 (42 miles away) went from a strength reading of 20-30 before to 40-58 on a sunny clear day.  Morgantown WV PBS went from 50 before to around 70 and is 15 miles away.  All other stations are missing in action.  I swapped converter boxes from the Wallymart Magnavox to a Radio Shack Digital stream and have identical results with the exception of the "weak signal" on screen report in place of where the signal from the station should be.  I may be able to go an additional 10 feet higher but my snatch block point on my 2000 pound winch is on my chimney and I would be gambling pulling the chimney off the house at that point.

I am not alone in this situation.  I mentioned in a previous post that a good friend lives on the other side of the hill behind me two miles north and is about 100 feet higher in elevation and has a clearer view towards Pittsburgh.  He receives three channels from Pittsburgh on a clear sunny day but whenever it rains or snows the digital stream gets constantly interrupted causing picture freezing and voice drop outs. During bad weather conditions the limit of a high powered non interrupted digital stream seems to be around 20 - 30 miles under ideal terrain conditions of line of sight.

Begging the forums indulgence and forgiveness please let me step up on my soap box and make a small announcement even with the very slightest possibility of just one of those individuals personally responsible who was involved in the "Digital Revolution" that will be sweeping the country in February 2009 may be reading this:

First I want to thank you for taking OTA television and using modern technology placing it back in the dark ages with reception capabilities now worse than when we had a tube type television from Montgomery Wards and a "lazy x" tv antenna stuck up on a pipe 20 feet off the ground in 1958.  Back then we could get two stations from Pittsburgh as now compared to one currently.

Secondly, may all of those involved in selling the current tv spectrum space through whatever "back room dealing" that took place be blessed with a very severe case of life long hemorrhoids as a reminder of the pain in the butt you will be causing to the hundreds of thousands of people or more that share similar situations that I have.  The only forced gains that will result will be increased subscriptions to cable tv or satellite provided services.  I'm sure those service providers had no input to the decision made in going to OTA digital tv, right?  By the way I won't be one of those new subscribers because I already have been there and done that.

Sorry folks but I'm not in a great mood considering all the work, dollars & effort I put into this project considering the small amount that I gained.  So on a good clear sunny day it looks like I will be watching three PBS channels 24.1, 24.2 & 24.3 from Morgantown and 4.1 & 4.2 out of Pittsburgh. 

I just got a new (inexpensive) digital/analog TV.....I bought it to use as a computer monitor...It is mediocre in that respect.....So I hooked it up to my existing OTA antenna...I am 30 miles from all the stations in my area....Results are very good....I get more channels and channel 4 which never came in good with the analog signal now comes in clearly with the digital signal.....

What's your preamp setup? You have more than one?

I'm using all Winegard stuff here..Up about 80 feet, Denver's TV towers are about 65 miles away...You might want to look at the Winegard online catalog and spec sheets.

My digital UHF antenna is a side-mount Winegard HD9095 log-yagi. Gain is 14 dbd at CH 32. FWIW, the Channel Master 4228s haven't gotten the best reviews:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4228.html
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

The Winegard 9095 includes a VHF-UHF combiner; you simply plug a cable from the VHF antenna into a jack on the UHF antenna.  The output of my combined antennas feeds a tower-mounted Winegard AP4700 preamp. It's VHF bypass, 19 db gain on UHF only.  This feeds about 150 feet of RG-6 into the house and a 4-way splitter.

Your choice of preamps is *critical*!

I tried several types of TV preamps from Radio Shack Channel Master and elsewhere...ALL of the combo VHF-UHF types SUCK, with cross-modulation, desense and overload...Not only from TV stations, but from nearby two way radio and FM broadcasting.  The ONLY one that worked properly was the Winegard UHF only, VHF bypass preamp.

Lastly, check to make sure your Pittsburgh DTV stations are operating at full power.  For various reasons, many DTV stations around the country have been operating at half-power or less or from temporary sites, including mine in Denver.

YMMV

-Bill

I have two ChannelMaster CM-0264's that are rated at 23 db.  I ran two 110 foot coax cables because I figured this would allow me to run to each tv if I ended up with the results that I now have.  I wanted a 300 ohm input type preamp to eliminate any matching transformer loss at the antenna.  Wingard didn't offer this option. The 300 ohm foam leads are of equal length at 14 inches. I took extra care in keeping the 300 ohm leads at least a half inch from touching the reflector.The plan was to run the antennas into an amplified Pico CATV/MATV combiner.  Whenever I do this I end up no differently than when I run a single coax to each tv.

My location contributes to the problem.  I have a hill 750 feet to north that is 100 feet higher (with 40 foot tall trees) than the base of the antenna tower. My location is very poor for UHF reception.  I went online to one of the HDTV sites that give you the local stations available in your area with terrain factored in.  It said I would get only the PBS station out of Morgantown. (http://www.antennaweb.org/aw/Stations.aspx)
My GPS location is N 39.8626 W -79.9505 or 140 Liveasy Road, zip 15320
Considering this I guess I am actually doing a bit better than predicted.

The other annoying thing is that I can get analog VHF channel 4 in Pittsburgh on the old VHF/UHF antenna with the antenna pointing straight up with the rear elements touching the ground while the tower is down on the ground.

Wow, thats quite a good set-up you have there with those uhf antennas. Actually quite a bit of gain.

Been having the same trouble your having there. Ive honed my system until all analog stations are crispy clear. Only getting half the digital stations, and out of those, half go down in fog and rain. SO I get 2 channels in bad weather, out of 8.

For maximum signal, you still cant beat twinlead and a good 300 ohm mast mount booster. Beware of splitters and transformers, they can be energy suckers.

I suspect many will be screwed no matter what they do.

One outfit has studied the problem......FCC knows what is going to happen, they just dont care.  What is surprising is the TV stations act like they dont care if they lose half thier viewers,either.

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6549926.html

For enetertainment, I have a FTA set-up. I get a lot of old shows from various RTN feeds, PBS, and ABC and FOX.

I do like to have local news and weather, so this DTV thing kinda sucks.

i get my tv off the internet.
cbs.com
nbc.com
sci-fi.com
hulu.com
and itunes
its the waaaaave of the future  ;D

A recent survey taken in this area indicated that only 25% of Denver teevee viewers use off-air reception. So if they lose half of those, it's not that big of a deal, is it..?

I am NOT paying for teevee, from satellite or elsewhere.

Now, in fringe areas, it is possible for citizens to band together and set up their own community TV translators. People have been doing that for years in the Colorado mountain areas.

Find a ham or someone with a good location, work out a deal with them and set up your own community translators.

You are not alone!

Heres another recent tidbit of news:

http://broadcastengineering.com/news/viewer-antenna-woes-wilmington-0912/

Also, along the same subject line:

http://broadcastengineering.com/news/comcast-predicts-customer-windfall-analog-shutoff-0915/

That wouldn't bother me.  I never waste my time with the worthless drivel on commercial TV anyway.

We get only one PBS station here, and that's what I watch 99% of the time, even that averaging less than 2 hours per week, usually not even one hour.

The Shi'ite will hit the fan when all the Joe Sixpacks who live out in the boonies suddenly won't be able get their TV fix any more.  I haven't run into a lot of people who have a clue what I am talking about when I mention the subject of the digital changeover.

And those who are on cable are not out of the woods either.  They keep saying that if you are on cable, that you don't have to do anything.  But I read somewhere recently that many of the cable providers will begin phasing out analogue signals, so someone with an analogue-only set will see his choice of channels dwindle until finally the old TV will be little more than a  door stop.

I use my TV as a video monitor only, and use outboard audio, and bring in the stations using the tuner in the VCR (which I rarely use for playing VHS tapes anymore).  My DVD player does not have a built-in tuner.

I haven't looked at any of the newer consumer electronics junk in the stores lately, but I assume they do make affordable DVD-R recorders with integrated tuners, that function like the old VHS recorders.

We have become somewhat dependent on the local news and weather on CH4.  During severe weather CH4 goes into a weather alert mode giving locations of severe storm activity such as where wind shear or upper circulation is taking place.  The National Weather Service just issues a somewhat worthless general county wide warning without any pin point locations.  The problem is all the CH4 information will disappear during any occurrence of bad weather between here and Pittsburgh.  Loss of this weather service constitutes a threat to general public safety. We are not glued to our tv sets.  We do not watch ABC's "prime time" garbage shows - including all of their Japanese based ideas of entertainment, dancing & survivor low cost production with high profit potential garbage.  We do watch programs like Good Morning America and other news based shows. 

My personal thoughts are that those responsible should be held accountable.  I have yet to find a website to file a complaint or even give a written comparison between the old analog and the new digital.  In the above mentioned links it says Comcast lookt to profit from the influx of OTA household because of the loss of reception.  Makes me wonder if there was some back room dealing going on with them.
 

do you get channel WJLA 6 out of J town?

the wine guard pre amps are the only ones worth a damn. I get 24 channels 75 miles away from DC and I have a 2200 ft ridgeline in the way.

RG-6 has massive loss at UHF. see if you can get some 75 ohm hardline for free.

When I had the UHF/VHF Radio Shack fringe area at 34 feet I could get it without any problems.  I could sometimes get the CH3 PBS station outside of Harrisburg and also CH35 or 36 UHF out of Hagerstown MD (?)  but it had picture sparlkies/15% snow but there is a 1300' mountain 12 miles to the east between here and Hagerstown. My other "sometimes station" was CH 10 out of Columbus OH.  That was usually late at night or early morning during the winter months.  So I had all the local VHF channel daily with the exceptions of CH3 & CH10.

I wanted the Wingard preamps but I could not find one that had 300 ohms input.  I think that due to my location the amount of signal loss I would have going through the matching xformer would negate the gains that I would benefit.

The RG6 that I used was rated & tested for 3ghz microwave service.  I figured that would provide plenty of RF headroom:
UL Listed - Solid Copper Conducter Wire, SBCA Compliant, swept tested to 3 GHz, 60% Aluminum Braiding, 100% Shielded

Good Morning America is a news show?  :P

Your irritation is quite understandable. Did you send your letter below to the FCC? That is a more appropriate audience than here.

The plan is to eventually phase out free over-the-air TV.

At first, many years ago, the pay channels on cable TV were commercial-free.  Now most have just as many, and just as obnoxious, commercials as the regular over-the-air programs.

Also, free over-the-air terrestrial radio will be phased out.  Once everything is converted 100% to digital, programming will increasingly become available only to paid subscribers regardless of the transmission medium.

That ain't gonna happen, Don. There might be premium digital radio services added that one has to pay for, but analog broadcast radio isn't going away. Not during our lifetimes, and not for maybe the next 50 years.

Rest easy. Not even a hint of rumors in the industry suggesting any of this.

Don't know what to say Bob. I am also in SW PA ( Irwin) and my effort was to get my Magnovox box
and hook it up between my 35 year old Radio shack ant  and my 25 year old RCA TV. I get
from Pgh  ch 2 4  11 13 16 22 40 and 53 also  ch 8 23 from Jtown and 24 from Morgantown...
Are u sure there isn't a signal sucker somewhere near u?
Go figger.
Frank
K3SQP

I agree about terrestrial radio......Digital+Terrestrial= A huge nightmare for broadcasters because most listeners are mobile.

I agree with Don on subscription service. The stations must be eye-balling a bigger cat to skin if they didnt even put up a fuss about the DTV switchover.

The 2009 change over date was pushed back from a 2006 change over date. There may have been an even earlier change over date that  was pushed to 2006. At least one of the reasons for the push back was the broadcasters complaining.

..this digi-thing is not happening here in canada, but folks who live within the range of u.s. stations will have to get the box, from the states...i agree with you don, about what is on tv, so that's why i have FTA satellite...i receive 4 satellites, and i can get 1300 channels...this allows me to actually find something worthwhile, if i chose to watch...you mentioned pbs..i get something like 40 different pbs stations, and they are not all running the same programs, at the same time...i live in a rural area, and satellite is the only option here, and hey, it's all free....tim...sk..

There's quite a few Dead spots down there in Irwin Bob, The GPS/data link in My work Truck loses it's link on a few places on 993 in coupla spots in Penn/Manor then down in Sutersville...LOL...that's in a Big Hole there... :)

I can understand your Plight and you have every Right to complain OM..all that work for nothing...it's a Shame...If you see an Estes Express Tractor trailer running through there that would be me...I end up there 5 days a week ...it's Yellow and Black...give us a wave OM I'll pull over an we'll choot the Chit... 8)

Hey,..Who's the Ham over in Jeanette going up the big hill towards 30 going out the back side of town?...from Omnova used to be General Tire...

Hey Jack,
I'm located south of Carmichaels about an 1/8th mile of Route 88 so if you ever delivered in this area we may have met.

UPDATE:  Weather was cooler and fog developed this morning.  CH4 signal strength dropped to the upper teen to lower 20% readings on the built in strength meter.  Seems that any form of moisture in the air has a detrimental effect on the signal and digital stream.  Beam width also narrows because you have to be spot on or the voice drops out and picture blocking occurs.

Strange but with the lowered VHF antenna I was getting audio but no video from Dubois Pa this morning on channel 10.

It probably won't do an good but I just sent a letter to my local representatives Casey, Specter, and Murtha with my complaint:

September 23, 2008
The Honorable Robert P. Casey Jr.
United States Senate
383 Russell Senate Office Building
Washington, DC 20510-3804

Re: Digital television will be forcing millions of US citizens to go to cable or satellite tv services

Senator Casey:

Digital television using the UHF allocated frequency spectrum in western Pennsylvania is is one of the WORST ideas that the federal government has ever come up with. Use of this frequency spectrum is severely hampered by the hilly terrain. Don't tell me that I need to do improvements to my current antenna as I have already increased the height, increased the antenna gain factor by over 30db, and removed a 40 foot tree that was in the way. I have been an amateur radio operator since 1977 and have enough background and experience to be very familiar with electronic propagation in the UHF frequency spectrum. Under ideal conditions it is a known fact that UHF television signals have an average range of 40 miles. These factors become severely hampered by hilly terrain and weather conditions. Signal degradation is effected by simple things such as rain, snow, and just determined this morning - fog! I am not alone in this situation. A good life long friend that lives two miles north and is 100 feet higher in elevation is having the same difficulties. We are both located less than 45 miles from the tv transmitter sites. I am sure there will be tens of thousands of others in Pennsylvania that will be soon sharing the same dilema. A lot of us in rural areas rely on the news media's weather branch for updates on severe weather alerts which contain life threatening weather information such as approaching wind shear or upper level circulation where a tornado is forming. Why have you through your actions are you taking this away from us? The national weather service provides county wide alerts but does not always give pin point locations of storm activity or maps that are given by WTAE channel 4 weather. Putting rural areas in harms way by the lack of providing current tv's weather warnings constitutes a general threat to public safety. I am appalled of this choice made by our government's representatives to auction off the current VHF television spectrum because of the resulting projected revenue and their general lack of concern for their constituents. The forty dollar converter program may be working for some but there will be many who will be forced to either purchase cable television or a satellite television subscription. This creates another government generated income burden for those who are already on a fixed income.


I am sure that I am not alone in saying I will be remembering you on election day!
Sincerely,

Bob.

I am in South Carolina and get some stations on the converter box. The main problem is this..... the digital power level decided upon is too low.  Analog power levels on UHF are 5 million watts max. Digital it's 1 million. That's too low.  WSPA TV 7 comes in fine in digital. They have their HDTV signal on a HIGH UHF frequency, but will revert to Channel 7 upon analog shutdown. Now, this is a bad idea for 2 reasons. There is still a lot of impulse noise on the high VHF channels. The power of their analog 7 is 316,000 watts.  They get 50,000 watts digital. Now, that is not going to work.

Powell

There is some benefit to the digital conversion.    The digital TV mode allows same-channel repeaters.    Analog TV has used low power repeaters on different channels.    In the State College PA area, the Johnstown PA digital station is repeated locally on its same UHF digital channel.    The same with the PBS station from Penn State, which in the past could not be picked up locally without a large antenna, as its transmitter is a long way from Penn State in Clearfield PA.    With a simple UHF antenna I now get all networks off the air, including all HD programming and 3 PBS digital channels.   My local cable wanted to charge me extra for a cable card for my HD Tivo unit.    Now I can do without the cable, thanks to digital TV and the local on-channel repeaters.   If it wasn't for my wife's desire to record some cable channels we receive, I would probably cancel my cable service.    I think this technology is in its infancy, just as color TV was in 1964.    I believe the TV stations will set up in band repeaters to maintain their market share when most of them are forced onto the UHF band by the digital conversion.  It may take a few years, but off-the-air free TV will probably be better in a few years.

Even in bad weather we can still get stations from washington,dc here in south central PA. And our tower is only up 30 feet about, and washington is about 100 miles away.
Shelby KB3OUK

[quote author=WB3LEQ link=topic=17129.msg118422#msg118422 date=12221682

Strange but with the lowered VHF antenna I was getting audio but no video from Dubois Pa this morning on channel 10.
[/quote]\\

That was probably WTAJ in Altoona. We can get a good analog signal from there.
Shelby kb3ouk

\\

That was probably WTAJ in Altoona. We can get a good analog signal from there.
Shelby kb3ouk
[/quote]

I think you are right.  It was WTAJ because it was similar to WTAE.

So far I have not received any replies from my political representatives.  I guess either they don't care or they are busy saving the banking system or something.

Hopefully the local stations will be turning up the power.  CH 's 2, 4, & 11 are currently listed at 1000KW each.  I don't foresee any local repeaters in the near future.

I just received my first "politically correct" reply from:
--------------------------------------------------
 
"Congressman Murtha" <PA12Reply@mail.house.gov>
Date: 10/9/2008 4:07:39 PM

Dear Mr. Sova:

 

I appreciate your contacting me with your specific concerns about the
analog to digital transition for television broadcasting.  This is an
important issue that could potentially impact many Americans.  One of
the primary reasons why Congress mandated the switch was to free up
bandwidth used in communications technology.  Television broadcasters
currently occupy a portion of the analog spectrum, broadcast channels 52
through 69, which is also known as the 700 MHZ band.  Digital television
is more efficient in its broadcasting, so it will free up some of the
space currently used in analog broadcasting.  Some of the freed space
will be used by public safety communications, including police, fire
squads, and public rescue teams.  Other parts of the freed space will be
auctioned off to private companies that will use it for advanced
technologies.

 

During the transition, it is important for every person to know if they
will be directly affected by the change.  Television customers who
receive service through an analog antenna will need to obtain an
analog-to-digital digital converter box.  While I know that you feel
that these may not work in your specific situation, I would like you to
know that each household is eligible to receive two coupons valued at
$40 to purchase converter boxes.  Others, such as those who receive
television services through cable, may need to upgrade their equipment
to receive digital services. I suggest that you contact your television
service provider if you are not sure if you will be affected. 

 

For more information you can visit www.dtv2009.gov
<http://www.dtv2009.gov/> .  You can also contact my office if you have
additional questions.  You can reach my office toll-free by calling
(800) 289-2642.


Sincerely,

JOHN P. MURTHA
YOUR CONGRESSMAN

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
So there is the proof that they have absolutely no idea nor do they even care the slightest bit about the mess they are creating. 

Notice the last paragraph & notice my previous post containing the email that I previously sent to my representatives.  I guess I need to send myself a letter to see if I am affected since I am my own tv source supplier.  DUH!  What a crock!

Gee, I just can't wait for election day so I can go and vote for this guy.

What an idiot politician's form letter!  well before long, the only free TV or radio shows will be preachers or 100% infomercials.. It's looking kore and more like the industy wants to move everyone to a fee or subscription based service.

Someone mentioned FTA satellite. I never heard of it. What does that cost per month for 4 satellites? must be obscene.

Murtha represents Johnstown, my wife's former hometown. He is about nothing more than bringing home the bacon from Washington. never has been.

...FTA is free....buy the receiver, download the recent computer program, install it in the receiver via usb stick, and ur done...i'm getting 2 dishnet sats, and 2 bell sats...
..tim..sk..

Well after almost two months time I have received an email reply from Sen. Casey:

Response from Senator Casey

Thank you for taking the time to contact me.  I appreciate hearing from all
Pennsylvanians about the issues that matter most to them.  I have forwarded
your correspondence along to my staff that handles telecommunications
issues and they will be looking into your concern on my behalf.

I am working diligently to be responsive to the needs and concerns of the
people of our Commonwealth and country.  Please know that your views are
very important to me, and I will keep them in mind.

Again, thank you for sharing your thoughts with me.  Please do not hesitate
to contact me in the future about this or any other matter of importance to
you.

If you have access to the Internet, I encourage you to visit my new web
site, http://casey.senate.gov.  I invite you to use this new online office
as a comprehensive resource to stay up-to-date on my work in Washington,
request assistance from my office or share with me your thoughts on the
issues that matter most to you and to Pennsylvania.



Sincerely,
Bob Casey
United States Senator

Now I can really feel confident that things are going to get done...the wheels of progress are now greased and turning.  ::)

Last evening I had the opportunity to have a conversation with KDKA's RF Systems Crew Chief George Jacob KA3GIR.  George informed me that the station's digital transmitter is currently running the maximum power permitted.  That wasn't good news. he also had a bit of hopeful news.  Local station channels 11 & 13 will be using their current analog frequencies for digital transmissions so there is still some distant hope.

TV sucks good reason to leave it off if you can't see it. Contact pill pushers and tell them you can't see their commecicals...then it will get fixed. We all need pills because we are all suffering from something.

Bob and others,
I don't mean to twist this thread, BUT I went through the same thing when we moved to Western Pa. with DirecTV and trying to justify receiving the network feeds for HDTV. They (DirecTV) refused access to those feeds because they could not get a waiver from the local stations in Pittsburgh (50 miles South of me, usual Pa.terrain) The TV stations claimed I was able to recieve their HI-Def UHF channels from my house with a roof-top antenna. I tried and there was very little RF sig from Pittsburgh. UNfortunately there was something from the Youngstown locals. Of the four networks locals, only two were in Hi-Def.

Fred

The FCC will have thier hands full when Feb. rolls around. And they are finally acknowledging that, Golly Gee! Guess what! The DTV signal has less range than analog!

If you want a laugh, read about what their "solution" to the problem is.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-10092485-38.html

Sorry what is "FTA"?
Canada only?

Got a link?

            _-_-bear

...bear...FTA.."free to air"...no, all over the world...google "fta concept"...
..you buy the receiver, but up a dish, (small), point it at the bird....you download the satellite file, put it on a usb stick, install in the receiver, and enjoy...dishnet, and bell are the most popular...

..sk..

Correct me if I'm wrong, but just to clarify, getting FTA programming (unencrypted) is free.  Downloading software to decode Dish Network is bootlegging.

...i dont know if it is "bootlegging"...i always thought that was something to do with homebrew booze...

...a RF  signal lands in my backyard, it's mine..

..sk..