The AM Forum

hi for those of you that dont know me my name is grant my call is w4bvt i am located near roanoke va. today i recived a oo card from n8wjs stateing that i am 35-40kc wide imposible i know my station is not that wide! during the time of the soposed infraction a ssb bunch that comes on every night that there is am activity had come on right on top of me and wb8bil and insted of them being the ones geting oo cards it is me! if memory serves me right n8wjs is one of those i hate am dorks that we all have to deal with why i dont know .by the way we were on 3.885 . this guy high lighted the portion of the notice that says no reply necessary i guess he does not like the idea of me calling him at 3 in the morning inquireing how he devined these shurly rice box acurate results! you know highlighters scare me! by the way another interesting fact is since the notice was sent the ssb bunch have been moveing closer to ongoing am activity how more obvious can you be this is shurely just structured meaness.just thought that you all should know about this little development and thank you all for a great community and for the continued preservation of the am mode ,grant

Hello Grant,

 By any chance do you have the capabilities to measure your signal or know anyone with an analyzer that can do that for you, and pay particular attention to your outer edge products.

 By any chance did the monitor happen to state what device was used in the measurement process and send a Pictogram of your signal, it is "Not Required" but a Concerned Amateur First, would share the offending information, signal inefficiencies and distortion figures, and make suggestions on correction...then again i am a Concerned Amateur first and it is "Not required"  I know,... I would if I found any by products on a signal that carried a width of 35 to 40 Kc's..come on...Sheeze...

 I'm always very interested in the measurement process used by these OO's..

73. jack

It seems clear to me that some AM hating SSBer got himself appointed as a OO.
What we need is a OO that's an AMer, then wear out the sindbanders that intentionally interfere with AMers with pink slips.

73, Ron w4ron

hi ron you know this kind of stuff can get a little side ways but if you have enogh traction so to speek .............thanks,grant

Grant said:
Reply by sending him this ;)

http://www.somis.org/OOO_card.jpeg (http://www.somis.org/OOO_card.jpeg)
(http://www.somis.org/OOO_card.jpeg)

Time to Fire Off Another E to the 3 land Rep at the league and maybe directly to the league Off's...and describe what I feel as "Good Official Observer Practice" and describe what Conditions and Equipments Used in their process such as:

Online web service as to who is who.

Online web service as to the Station Equipment used.

Online Pictorial of said Station.

Why Hide such a service.....it shud be open and accessible to all Licensee's...on their Web service.


Amateurs policing Amateurs should have accessibility to Both sides of any issue.

73. jack

i agree what are they useing ? i garrantee it is not a $6.000 spectrum analiser
like the one i checked the station out with .
another development that is interesting ,another ham that was not even on freq. got the same card 30-40kc wide he sent me a copy of the card and it is almost the same ,except he also acuses the station that was not on freq of incorect id whitch is kind of hard to do when your radio is turned off ! thanks for all the coments ,grant

Years ago I got an OO report that listed my mode as SSB, and the complaint was that my signal had excessive carrier, which allegedly violated the rule regarding purity of emissions.

The past couple of OO cards I have received over the past few years have been "good guy" reports complimenting me on the high quality and purity of the signal.

I recall once getting a rather nasty OO card, regarding an incident on 160.  I sent a photocopy of the card to ARRL HQ, and the person in charge sent me an apology, and directed the OO to send me a personal apology, which he did.  Then the HQ staff member sent me a  letter of inquiry to ask me if I was satisfied with the response.  I dropped him a note to say that I was satisfied and that as  far as I was concerned the matter was closed.

Then there is alot to be said about recording operations,... written a guy up who wasn't even on the air huh..?... ;D ... Ooopseys.....I'd request a copy of that and the OO's Monitoring Station log ... that'll fall on deaf ears. 8)


Well I imagine that feller knows by now we're discussing this, this kinda news seems to travel rather quickly...I understand Human Nature...I have a problem with bias....hell we outta invite him in here and give him a quick run down on operations and Sig-in-Nail Processing....He would depart a much learned individual...

Our CC-AWA club station W4AWA got a OO card a while back when it was taking part in one of the AWA old time transmitter contests running a 20s era Hartly.
The OO report said the CW note was "chirpy", well duh...

73, Ron w4ron

Hey Ron he prolly Fergot to check the league website as to what corntest he was supposed to monitor...and understand what conditions he was going into... ;D  Don't look to good on protocol here.....what the heck the other one's written up people who aren't even on the air... ;D....Read a Book take a test...Whammmo...

I am Now King... Bow you wide signals....LOL..8)  ;D ;D ;D

If he's wrong, you should reply. And copy the FCC and ARRL.

i think the guy should have a chance to coment .i feel shure that we all would
like to hear about his side of the crappy reciver. this is why i brought this to you guys att. all should be aware it seems like it is just the start of a campain of crap from a groop that hates us [by us i mean all that opperate am] they think  this is how it is going to go down ,they think that they can hide behind there misunderstood rules and clean out the freq any way they can. infact the guys on 3.888 have sayed that they will come on any time they like no mater what is going on and backed it up with rules that dont exist! and have stated that they are in there rights to use any tactic needed to take us out! and that rily holinsworth is a frind and would back them up! these coments were made by nc4l the ring leader of the guys on 3.888 they come on eastern time 10- 11pm if there is no am activity they dont stay on long if at all. go figure! by the way the coments have been recorded multiple times during conversations where they were being notifyed that they were on top of a on going conversation! so yea please n8wjs tom oyer get out hear! i would love to see his explanation for all this garbage! and where the info ends up is up to those that own it ,so i think a good thing would be that they go away and stop this stuff before it gets that far. LAST CHANCE GUYS! thanks agin for all the input,grant

This is where a softrock and flex display help a lot because you can see exactly wide you are.

I would suggest reviewing the qualifications required to get an Official Observer Appointment http://www.arrl.org/FandES/field/org/oo.html and further, the FAQ's surrounding the Official Observer program http://www.arrl.org/FandES/field/org/oo.html

The answer to one of the FAQ's states:
"If you feel that the OO sent you a notice that violates the principles of the program, send a copy to your Section Manager (if known) or to Headquarters for evaluation and possible action. Quality control is critically important in a program as sensitive as this one!"
This is where you should start your query. In my opinion, your frustration would be better served by contacting your Section Manager, and laying out the reasons you believe the OO Notice was not warranted in this case. Although there have been numerous encounters around 3885 with adjacent channel interference, whether malicious or not, this is an issue for you to pursue if you feel you were wrongly cited. Of course, one could take the hard-nose approach and just "tough it out" and/or "beat them back" but both seem to me to be counterproductive. Although, Riley's replacement has not been announced, a job opening has been posted, I'm sure there are others within the FCC Enforcement Bureau who could field a malicious interference report if you notified them of any ongoing malicious activities around your frequency of interest.

Just as in the recent "Doctor is in" case in QST, there are a lot of people who fail to understand that the apparent bandwidth on a receiver when tuning past a signal is the sum of the bandwidth of the transmitted signal + the width of the receiver passband.  This is exacerbated by the fact that very few signals, especially AM, have a sharp cutoff at the edges of their occupied bandwidth, and that even the best performing receiver i.f. bandpass filters typically have something like a 1.5:1 or 2:1, 6/60 dB shape factor.

Let's take a hypothetical example of both the transmitted signal and the receiver bandwitdhs having a 2:1 shape factor.  Let's say the AM signal's nominal bandwidth is 10 kHz, and the receiver's selectivity is set to 3.5 kHz. This set of conditions would not be atypical on to-day's phone bands.  The signal would theoretically appear 13.5 kHz wide on the receiver, but considering the shape factor with a signal 120 dB above the noise floor at the receiver, that signal would be audible over 27 kHz of the dial of the receiver as you tuned past, nearly three times the nominal bandwidth of the signal.

Sorry to hear about your troubles Grant... Must be the season for OO reports, I got one in the mail this week as well. The guy doing the listening was WS8RM, and I hate to say it but I was on AM with Steve, KJ8CQ on 8/02/2008 on 3.880 at 2134 UTC...

It was a good operator report and I quote: "Your recent QSO was a fine example of Amateur Radio. I would not hesitate to let a visitor to my 'shack' listen to your operation. 73 and keep up the good work."

Now there's alot of guys that do a lot finer job than I, their all over 3.880,3.885 etc, and one of them would be you Grant... 'C mon, 35-40 KC wide???? Give me a flippin' break... Man I dialed up and down on many operators including you and ya ain't that darn wide to say the least!!!

I guess by the above, It's all a matter of who's listening and when... Those Slopbuckets on 3.888 need drop kicked right out of the spectrum and into the toilet.. Now there's poor conduct to say the least.... And yes recordings have been taken, and forwarded , and probably not a darn thing will be done, so much for band expansion and more room.

Sorry you got black balled Grant, I and alot of other guys think you run a terrific station as evidenced by the plentiful comments every night, don't let it bug you, send an official observers notice back that he plain sucks at what he does and that he needs to pull his head out of his backside and tackle some of the real issues at hand, Splattering Buckshotting Slopbuckateers...

Catch ya later Grant and anyone else reading on....

Hey Grant, be happy you didn't get the OO card I got one time while operating on 40M AM. The OO cited me for having a "carrier" on my signal. I looked him up in the call book, (this was pre-internet times), and found his phone number. I queried him about his 'observation' and he re-iterated his point about having carrier. I told him I was using AM and his response was, "Why would you use AM??) Nuff said.

According to the OO I wasn't there, Grant!  ;D

I think all O.O's should be BBQ'ed and turned on a handle over a open fire.  Then made into Offical Observer kabobs.

The only O.O. card that was ever worth the paper it was written on was the gag card sent out by JJ that said Jesus and Jefferson would never approve of belching and farting.

 :D

How would they know?  ;D

The only OO card I got was as a JN running a hb 6BQ6 osc./pi net on 2nd harmonic outside the hambands.  I might still have the card around here somewhere. The xmitter is long gone for JN parts.  Anyway, Invested in a Lafayette wavemeter after that.  Cute little thing w/ 1 1/4 in. meter and diode pick-off.
Lucky to be licensed after the days where you had to guess which band your on... heh, heh. The 'receiver' of the day couldn't tell me much. 

This guarantees you nothing beyond using a frequency first, any frequency. It's not owned by any individual or group and will likely be used against you as a case of perceived frequency ownership in any argument or discussion. One of the reasons I never liked being penned into the ghetto-window area, it's like painting a target on your signal. Operate there and anywhere else your license allows.

Depending on band conditions, signals can appear to be pretty wide at times. But on 75, not likely the problem (especially at night). Unless the report has some technical explanation involved and was written in a way to help you address the problem, I'd chalk it up to more of the same ignorance/intolerance too. Any AM signal is too wide to someone with a SSB mentality who is pre-disposed to believing so.

BTW, we had some of the lids from 3.888/3.905 follow us down to the 80m portion last year, intent on interfering with any AM contact. Since the AMers who operated down there have moved back up to the ghetto, I assume the problem children have followed. Good times.

Reply anyway. You have every right to, since he started the conversation with an unsolicited correspondence to you. He has no grounds for a harassment complaint as a result. Make sure to copy your ARRL section manager (and his, too), as Pete pointed out.

Without talking down to the guy (even though he deserves it), ask some simple yet pointed questions, such as:

• Exactly which FCC regulation was violated?
• Exactly what apparatus was employed to make these measurements?
• Exactly when was said measurement apparatus last calibrated, and what accredited laboratory performed said calibration?
• How many other operators has he cited for excessive bandwidth?
• Who were these operators, and when were these citations issued?

The answer to the first question: there is no such regulation (spare me the "no more than necessary" rule, that's ambiguous, vague, and unenforcible. There is no specific bandwidth limit, so there is no specifically excessive bandwidth, either).

The second and third questions are entirely valid, but chances are the answers won't be.

I'm sure everyone will claim that the last two questions are none of your business, but the intention is not that he answers you, rather that your (and his) section managers ask themselves (and him) the same questions.

Have others proofread your response before you send it.

Don't turn this into a pissing match. That's exactly what this guy wants you to do. If you take the high road, others will see for themselves that this guy is taking the low road, without you having to say it.

Give a guy like this one chance to expose himself as a fraud, and he'll take that one chance to do so several times.

I know some former OOs who had their status yanked away from them for abusing their responsibility. This is not likely to happen this time, but if this guy makes a habit of this kind of behavior, the League will get sick of it (and sick of receiving complaints about him) and remove him from the list.

Good luck.

--Thom
Killer Agony One Zipper Got Caught

Strap softly and turn up the wick...

A lot of SSB'ers really have no understanding of how to measure any bandwidth, let alone AM bandwidth on a  typical rice-box.  Don, what you have described is true, but too many slopbucketeers  don't understand the relationship of bandwidth to signal strength, and just what those "60dB down" points mean.   

No one understands that to measure any bandwidth of a received signal, one must turn off the AGC.  Second, no rice-box that I know of has any kind of calibrated signal input meter.  Turn off the AGC as you must, and the S-Meter stops working.     What typical slopbucketeer has a calibrated spectrum analyser handy?

Try explaining all this (including Don's  posting) to today's  typical slopbucketeer.   Good luck.  I have tried for 15 years or more and it's  a pointless exercise.     

The best suggestion is simply to strap and ignore.   

Oh my....

Another OO doesn't understand what he has a right send out a card for!

The ONLY possible reason for that card is if the OO can document YOUR knowledge of , and INTENT to interfere with another QSO.

Pretty difficult to do...

It would involve him getting YOUR voice, and giving your callsign, on tape, very clearly saying something like...

"Now I've turned up the audio gain, I know it's splattering all over that guy 10 kc up... if he moves to another frequency, I'm gonna follow him...."

Or some nonsense like that...


First things first... do NOT reply to him...
(why waste your time? it's not like he's gonna go turn himself in... it'll only make YOU feel better.)

As others said talk directly to the Section Manager, or the Section's OOC.

Their Phone numbers, email addys and mail addresses are on the section webpage.

Tell THEM you either want proof, or a written appology.

Just in case you want it....

Section Manager
Carl A. Clements, W4CAC
4500 Wake Forest Rd
Portsmouth, VA 23703-4413
757-484-0569
w4cac@arrl.org

Assistant Section Managers
Brian E Bayus, N1KC
2521 Heathcliff Ln
Reston, VA 20191-4225
(703) 264-1180
brian.bayus@comcast.net

Daniel J Edwards, AG4YU
403 Meadow Brook Ln
PO Box 601
New Castle, VA 24127-0601
(540) 864-7021


Thomas L Gregory, N4NW
14 Shallow Creek Ln
Stafford, VA 22554-3966
(540) 720-0431
n4nw@n4nw.org


Bernard H Leonard Sr, W4LGY
22413 Apache Ln
Bristol, VA 24202-1643
(276) 669-4387


Richard W Logan, KF4ZUF
2552 Detroit St
Portsmouth, VA 23707-1724
(757) 673-0238
KF4ZUF@arrl.net


Christine E Sokol, K4CES
124 Summitt Dr
Rich Creek, VA 24147-9642
(540) 726-2211
k4ces@arrl.net


Rue O Stuteville Jr, KA4PLH
1405 Virgilina Ave
Norfolk, VA 23503-2312
(757) 583-2588




Official Observer Coordinator
Jack B Cochran, WC4J
PO Box 757
Nokesville, VA 20182-0757
(703) 965-6011, (703) 257-9545
wc4j@wc4j.com

this guy wants to crank you up.... just strap

I was sandbagging on the freq while wiring up the new no-JS HV cap filter bank on maul #1. They have succeeded it would seem to 'crank'. Way too much concern over 88. They're nothing, they always have been nothing, and they always will be nothing.

The entire O.O. system has been constantly misused and abused so often to settle personal vendettas it means nothing. They carry less credibility than non binding resolutions of Congress. I used one as a bum wad once when I was a JN.

A bona fide representative of the F.C.C. is the only entity that would get the time of day from me. 

heck i like OO cards

am working on my OO WAS

11 states confirmed

39 to go

there are clubs for everything
how about a club for OO card collectors

something like County Hunters OO

we could have roving OO ops
a OO net
check in with a chirp, or drift, a bit of ac hum
ID 35 sec too late

got to do something about the cards
too drab and boring
need some bright colors

could give out wall paper
all band OO WAS
CW OO WAS
AM OO WAS
QRP OO WAS

when you get a OO card
don't get cranked

may be one card closer to that
worked all OO's award

Mac

hi mac i like the idea mabe we could have oo night on 75 just in thanks for those folks that help us with the awards program all of us can run 833 sbe's
for the event whoever gets the most cards win ,  ;D
i run my station right but for such a prestigous award the signal edges may have to get a little rogh! 8)

Grant said:
Do it during SS contest ....Ooops wait a minute, wrong thread...  ;)

Are OOs tested for technical knowledge??  If they are going to make judgements on the technical merit of another station's signal, then they should have to demonstrate that they know what they are talking about to earn the credentials. 

I fought the good fight on the "why so many wide AM signals?" baloney in the "Doctor is In" column in QST recently, and the author acknowledged the error of using a typical ham receiver in normal operation to judge the bandwidth of any signal.  I guess that OO didn't read that column!

I bet the same OO would be shocked to perform the same "tuning across" method of bandwidth measurement... strong CW signals can seem 5 kHz wide using that technique, and strong SSB signals seem 15 kHz wide.  But you notice they don't apply the same method to those modes - just AM. 

Sad, really...  or maybe it is an backhanded compliment that our AM signals attract attention.

Steve WD8DAS

Earlier Post:
I would suggest reviewing the qualifications required to get an Official Observer Appointment http://www.arrl.org/FandES/field/org/oo.html and further, the FAQ's surrounding the Official Observer program http://www.arrl.org/FandES/field/org/oo.html

Hi Grant, W4BVT  ... heard you in qso on 3878 about 8:00 pm .... so much static ! ... look forward to a qso with less qrn ... 73 ... John

Pete wrote:

>Earlier Post: I would suggest reviewing the qualifications required to
>get an Official Observer Appointment

Interesting - I'm glad they are tested.  Ineffectively though, it would appear, given the sometimes foolish claims made on OO reports. 

For example, back when I was a Novice running crystal-control on 40m I received an OO report claiming I was operating out-of-band.  As I recall, the crystal I was using was on 7120 kc and he said he heard me strongly on 6665 kc - interestingly exactly 455 kHz below my actual frequency.  When I wrote him back and pointed out it seemed unlikely my transmitter would radiate a strong signal there, and I didn't hear anything there on a nearby receiver, and suggested it was possible his receiver was suffering an image response of some kind - he wrote another OO card back to me with just one word in quote marks and a series of question marks:  "Image" ?????

I guess he didn't know what I meant.  And I was a 13-year old Novice in his first year as a ham.

Steve WD8DAS

If it really was an image with a 455 kHz i.f., the phantom signal should have  been 910 kHz away from the real frequency.  But sometimes higher order spurious products can produce image signals at seemingly random frequencies.

NO, they are not..... The test is a joke... it is only meant to demonstrate that you have SOME  good sense (obviously fails its purpose in some cases).

It is based on a pamphlet, only a few pages (and the FCC rule book)....
It is an open book test, that you fill out at home, and mail to the OOC or Sec manager.


And no they aren't supposed to address the  width of a signal....

Onlly possible case would be a lot of garbage on the opposite side-band of an SSB signal...
Then it would only be meant to make the operator aware of it.


OO's   CAN NOT make a judgment whether or not your signal is excesively wide!!

If there was complaints that came through the OOC, or from the FCC through ARRL 'HQ' about certain stations, the ONLY thing an OO can do, is to record, and document, and basic "observations".  :o

To Paraphrase Mao, 

"We too should have O.O's "

Think of the posibilities.... ..


klc

Several of the guys at the AWA ham gathering last weekend were sporting their OO cards obtained during the 1929 QSO party. I forgot to bring mine that I obtained using my 01A on RAC. What harm can a slightly buzzy sounding 1 Watt do?

Mike WU2D

I don't know here....I'm No gud with the politics ....my shortcoming and I'm staying out of that.....but it just Bothers me to make an observation on someone an just lay claim as to this...well yer 35 to 40 Kc's wide OM...that bothers me...then again I spend a great deal with my equipment and I'm just picky on receiving...I would have done some investigating and run a test on my system for Calibration and ran another test signal through an processed it over to the computer for structure analysis......that would have ruled out some of the above discussion....I dunno.....I don't see myself or anyone here putting their call out on a lame claim like that...if anything i would have sent a real time Pictorial of the signal...an say something like hey Bud i'm monitoring some image problems here or some dirt on yer signal...Oscillator harmonics..whatever I found....come on man..we have the equipment today to do this...it's beyond me OM's...

73 jack...

doesn't say how much brains you need to have to be an OO.
shelby kb3ouk

The "OO" Service is not designed to send out detailed reports. More detailed reporting might come directly from the FCC. The "OO" notice is a "friendly" observation of what he/she observed/heard when you were transmitting. Your action could be, "take corrective action if necessary, do nothing, or send a query to the OO's Section Manager to question the observation and/or dispute the perceived observation. None of this is rocket science.

Sign up for an official ARRL appointment!

There's a place for everybody: New ham or veteran, young or old, Novice or Extra, athlete, couch potato, or tech weenie. Click on the the appointments you're interested in, and then apply using the easy on-line application form. Your application will be forwarded to your Section Manager for consideration. When approved, you'll be eligible to order a call sign badge that tells everyone your official status as an ARRL appointment.

    * Official Emergency Station
    * Official Relay Station
    * Technical Specialist
    * Public Information Officer
    * Local Government Liaison
    * Official Observer
    * Assistant Section Manager
http://www.arrl.org/FandES/field/org/
Even an AM operator can be an OO. All while giving something back to Amateur Radio and going above the call in supporting your League.

Unless you simply think the O.O. program is garbage. The FCC should either enforce the rule of law equally and impartially, or they should simply deregulate the Amateur service completely. We pay taxes for these services, and  congressonal oversight is held if required. the record of government effectiveness & "cost savings " by privatizing and blessing unaccountable poeple to do things we already pay government to do is pretty bad. a company called BlackWater in Iraq comes to mind.

No O.O. will ever get the time of day from me regarding my station. That is the F.C.C.'s job. We pay them to do it. The ARRL is not the same hing, and by even putting "OFFICAL" in the name implies a government blessing and or/ statutory power. Dump the entire program, and pass the cost savings to your members. And demand the F.C.C., if it is going to regulate at all, do it themselves.

Q. Isn't the OO doing work that should more properly done by the FCC?

A. Amateur Radio monitoring and enforcement are low priorities at the FCC. Time and time again, the FCC has indicated that we're largely on our own in keeping our operating standards and spectrum in shape. The Amateur Auxiliary program and its OOs are the League's answer to this challenge.

Q. What are its objectives?

A. The general objectives of the program are to:
1. Foster a wider knowledge of and better compliance with the FCC rules;
2. Extend the concepts of self-regulation and self-administration in the Amateur Service;
3. Enhance the opportunity for individual amateurs to contribute to the public welfare; and
4. Enable the Enforcement Bureau of FCC to efficiently and effectively utilize its limited manpower and resources.

Q. So, the OO is there to help me?

A. Yes! The role of the Amateur Auxiliary is to provide an unbiased forum for technical and operational advice and other assistance to amateurs who are receptive. The task is not to find fault or lay blame! It is to identify cause and effect, many of which are not based upon technical but behavioral or social issues, and to find ways to achieve solutions to promote good amateur operating and engineering practice on our bands.

Q. Are OOs allowed to enforce the rules?

A. No! The mission is NOT enforcement. Enforcement is a function reserved exclusively by the FCC. Because the boundary between observation and enforcement is not always obvious, mature judgment is clearly required of Auxiliary members and its leadership. The Auxiliary, to be viable and effective, must avoid the appearance of enforcement. It must also avoid the appearance of having a vested interest in any specific type of amateur operations or of being sympathetic to amateur groups which advocate specific activities or causes. OOs are not to be involved in cases where they have a personal interest. They must be totally objective.

pete,

we'll disagree , politely.  :D  I have never agreed with the program, mostly becuase I dont believe it's members are in any way qualified to make technical observations about others stations nor possess accurate equipment to make that assessment. The F.C.C.'s representatives are on both counts, and are TASKED with doing so under law.

if it is such a low priority, then why not simply deregulate the entire service? maybe the FCC is too busy auctioning off huge parts of what used to be the public airwaves to corporate interests.

If the ARRL were to make such test equipment and training available as a requirement of the office, I'd have less of a problem with it. I've seen too many O.O. reports that are totally ignorant of the very nature of AM, such as " you have excessive carrier ", " your signal is 40 KC wide" and other gems.

OK, I understand all this it's not a problem here, really.. it's I know there's a Job to do and it has to be done I'm fine with that...as far as that goes, it's their Ship and their crew and whoever is in Command that's Not my interest in this.

 All I want to leave this with is when you look at a signal, take some time to understand what you are Looking at, First, and Maybe I am a Tech Weenie at this Station, but there are worst things... :)

 What we do here I feel is a Passion, and there is a great amount of work involved, You can't Buy this...and when you step into Our Ring here...at least bring the Correct pencils.. ;D OK....LOL....Maybe it would be behooving to that group to maybe attend to some sessions on Sig-in-nail processing...I dunno...


Carry On.

73 jack...

I meant that it seems like a lot of these people don't seem to have any brains. but there's also some things on the bands that probably get overlooked, too.
Shelby KB3OUK

Over-driven linears not withstanding (and this includes the last stages of even 100 watt rigs), I think one of the primary purposes for OO's is now in the dustbin of history.

At one time, before accurate VFO's, low pass filters on transmitter outputs as routine design, OO's listened for harmonics, out of band operations, and way out of band operations, as well as for rough signals. Hams in those days might be simply transmitting on the wrong frequency.  Most of this was unintentional because of mistuned stages, parasitics, etc.  OO's of the day would routinely listen to all shortwave bands, particularly harmonics of hambands.

From what everyone's posting it looks like several OO's have degenerated to "observing" glorified signal reports of perceived transmission quality as their sole reason for being.  

These reports, like everything else in a dumbed-down-qualification, "me-me" world, as in everyday discourse, are further corrupted by the politics of transmission mode, personality conflicts and "pretend police gottcha" syndrome all of which are diametrically opposite Pete's ARRL  Q&A posting.

So looks like "QST" is due to run an updated article advising proper instruments, interpretation of proper and lesser instrument data, application, courtesy and rules for OO's.  Their heart was originally in the right place.

In at least one case I received an OO report accusing me of "malicious interference" and "operating like a CB'er" because I simply turned up the wick and ignored that particular OO's buddies, when they had tried to start up on a frequency where I already had a long-established QSO in progress.

Don wrote:

>I simply turned up the wick and ignored that particular OO's buddies,
>when they had tried to start up on a frequency where I already had
>a long-established QSO in progress.

That happens to AM groups on 160m all the time.  Some SSB stations, or sometimes even another AM group, will decide it is time for *their* group (or net) to get started, and will just fire up on top or near the first group.  In my opinion it is then appropriate for the first group to increase power, if they can, since their previous power level is no longer enough to maintain communications.

This of course is not the same thing as changing propagation bringing interference from QSOs previously out of range to each other - that is a natural phenomenon and is no one's "fault".  In such cases I usually reduce power and/or shift frequency a bit to allow both groups to continue.

Steve WD8DAS

A lot of people who operate on the air today, in any mode, give the perception of not having any brains. But, "back in the gold old days", the wacko's generally only came out on weekends and long holidays and back then, the only HF phone mode was AM.

I do think at one time the program served a purpose back in the 'real' novice days when all you had was cw and 50 kc wide bands and a good percentage of novices  were...well...novices! They tuned their final on their DX-20 or one tuber as a doubler, had some chirp, drift, etc. O.O.'s provided a useful service in the 50's and early 60's. they ould base their observations on objective criteria such as drift, chirp, hum....

Those days are long gone. The program is obsolete in these days of plastic radios. The League should shut it down.

So, you would rather wait till your name was added to this list:
http://www.fcc.gov/eb/AmateurActions/Welcome.html
Now you have to go through a formal process. The Amateur Auxiliary serves a very useful purpose in keeping lots of names off this list.

Horse cookies! I can promise you that never once has the FCC decided not to persue enforcement action against a licensed amateur because the OOs had already acted.

The Amateur Auxiliary is a flawed concept on many levels: only ARRL members are allowed in, and the very name "Amateur Auxiliary" gives its members a false impression that they are somehow "above" the rest of the amateur community when they are, in fact, ordinary hams just like everyone else.

There isn't a monopoly on VECs, why is there a monopoly on OOs? Furthermore, why would anyone believe that such a monopoly is a good thing?

I think its time to forcefully wrest the sole custody of the Amateur Auxiliary from the ARRL once and for all. They've proven to most of us that they just can't handle it right, and competition is good for you (it gives you a reason to improve, unlike the current scenario).

Gentlemen,

 This needs to Stop. Please....

Given that the OO does a creditable job of informing the amateur of a possible malfunction of his rig, interference, an out of band operation, etc., the amateur can then take action to correct the problem. If the amateur was never informed by the OO, the amateur could be left to repeating the same problem over and over, until possibly, the FCC stumbled upon the amateur and his/her issue. Once the FCC serves you notice, it becomes a formal process (letter to amateur, amateur has 30 days to respond, formal acceptance of response, matter closed or further action).


As I quoted earlier:
"Amateur Radio monitoring and enforcement are low priorities at the FCC. Time and time again, the FCC has indicated that we're largely on our own in keeping our operating standards and spectrum in shape."

If you feel the urge to start your own "band cop" process, their nothing that I know of that should stand in your way other then some upfront initial creditability issues.

True enough....

Although there are times the FCC uses OO input to decide whether or not TO act.

The FCC routinely asks OOs to monitor area of band, or certain individuals that they have recieved complaints about.

"Can I Get Me an OO Licence Here?
Is there a contest for "Worked All OO's"
Hey Grant. Let me know if you need any more strapping parts!
Keith

Gee and I missed all the fun!! I line the bird cage with such paperwork  ;D Looks like I will have to dust-off the mosfets and put some fire to the wire.

Like having a battle of wits with an unarmed man. Ignore and strap!!

Brent W1IA

I heard you the first time, Pete.

You clearly didn't read what I wrote if you think that is even remotely relevant to my point. I know the FCC has better things to do with its time (and my money) than to chase us down, but that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with my point about the OO program being opened up beyond the ARRL's sole custody.

We have multiple VECs, we should have multiple OOCs. The best way to ensure someone's product quality is at its best is to have someone else also producing the same product.


I don't, but I find it amusing (yet not suprising) that you speak of the ARRL's OO program like it's a blessing upon all amateurs whose aura Shall Eternally Glow, yet even hypothetical talk of anyone besides the ARRL doing exactly the same thing gets the derogatory "band cop" label.

That Newington-esque patronizing and dismissive demeanor makes my point for me.


You have got to be kidding me!

Not every disagreement is an uncivil one. A discussion of the OO program is a very healthy thing and good for the hobby, as long as it doesn't degrade into personal attacks and name-calling. Pete and I have disagreed numerous times over the years, but niether of us are stupid enough to go down that rat-hole.

If an honest and civil disagreement offends you, you are welcome to not read it. It's a free country.

--Thom
Killer Aircraft One Zeppelin Goes Crash

I have never had any problem with the OO reports that I have received.  Either they were legitimate (harmonics, and one time a spurious signal about 30 kHz away that I wasn't aware of when I was using a "heterodyne" VFO), or else they were bogus, like the ones for "excessive carrier", alleged malicious interference, and "excessive bandwidth".  It shouldn't take a rocket scientist to filter out the bogus reports and to simply ignore them if one doesn't wish to continue the correspondence.

OO's can be like the hams who offer useful communications services during emergencies, versus others who show up wearing their orange vests, 6 HT's on a belt, in a vehicle that  looks like a porcupine with all the antennas attached and flashing amber lights, who get in the way attempting to show their importance and shoot the bull with the real emergency providers while they try to work, and who think they deserve a share of the free food provided by community volunteers.

..I'm Not offended...I'm not a member...LOL....

I just think it's defeative, because all i see is good productive Criticisms and then Parroting of the league...Nothings gona change ...HQ is Middle managed to death an there is going to be No relinquishing of anything...

Somebody comes up with a good point, and all ya get handed is League standards...it's like talking to a post...lol...................


  and that's My opinion...on this..

You're right, trying to change Pete's mind would be pointless. Fortunately, changing people's minds is not what I'm about. If two people (other than Pete) read what I wrote and at least thought about it (for or against, doesn't matter) then I've accomplished four times more than I would by simply changing one man's mind.

Your second paragraph sums up the way most people feel about the situation: nothing's going to change, there will be no relinquishing of anything, etc. In other words, we've collectively given up.

If there were a more sensible system by which several seperate organizations each had a hand in guiding the overall on-air experience, it would have exponentially better results than the current ARRL-members-only gang of kilocycle cops with no oversight. The current system has lost all respect in the amateur community, because 90% (I would guess) of what it generates is garbage.

If there were more than one body doing it, the garbage reports would go down quickly, because none of those bodies would want the reputation of running the dumbest bunch of OOs known to the hobby.

Beleive me, if the ARRL were the only VEC, the current influx of hams would be even less prepared to operate a transmitter than what we're getting now.

The OO program was supposed to be a means for us to keep each other honest. If nobody can keep the OO program honest (and let's face it: the ARRL will never admit to any malfeasance within its own ranks), then the program is doomed to fail.

The current program has already failed us. Time for a new program. No pink slips, no casting judgements, no reports generated based on hearsay, no highlighting of "no reply necessary", no kilocycle cops, no sense of entitlement.

Oh, by the way: the ARRL doesn't have a choice in the matter. It's not theirs to relinquish. They don't run this hobby the way they'd have us believe.

As long as we tell ourselves it's not worth it, or that it can't be done, we'll be right.

For my money, always being right is horribly overrated.

Just something to think about.

100%....FB..

 That's the thing like when i made that posting in the league section and said the Exact same thing...about always being Right...

 Your thoughts here to me are a gold mine, but I stepped in because I hate to see some of our finest beat their heads against his Door...I've been though that and It's wrong...It's one thing if it's needed and someone has a question hey By all means bring in the Rules this is this an so forth yes...get it done...but I'm watching league dogma that produces nothing....

Your Opinions are a Great Value to myself and others....all the parroting does is Create more riffs...it's pointless...

best 73 OM..