The AM Forum

When I decided to upgrade the license and get on HF and AM I started an attic remodel to give me space for a shack. It also improves my whole house's insulation and gives me more usable space.

Now that I have all the insulation, structure and such done I'm starting to rethink where the shack should be. My original thought was that the attic would be a nice space and I'd be closer to my antennas. On further thought I'm thinking that I may be better off in the basement nearer to the main breaker box and a good RF ground system. It certainly would be easier to deal with my boat anchors in the basement, although the BC-610E is already in the attic, wrapped in plastic to keep out the coming sheet rock dust. Most of my gear is boat anchors and I'm stocking parts for a real 6 ft tall classic maul.

I'd appreciate any thoughts on the pros and cons of attic vs basement shacks that any of you guy have. Am I better off closer to my RF ground or my antennas?

I'll have to go one way or the other soon.

Thanks

Greg

Greg,

Lots to consider there....

Being closer to the antennas.... not really a good thing  (could lead to rf in places you don't want it)

Closer to the breaker panel does not lead to a good rf ground.
Though, at or slightly below ground level, means less ground strap out to your rf grounding system.

In the basement, you might have moisture problems.

In the attic in the summer, maybe too hot for the operator.
And, you may need to make sure that the floor is actually strong enough to hold a lot of weight, in a small footprint.


I'm sure you'll get some other comments as well....

Good luck!

Think about your back. Find a closet or a room corner on your main floor.

I should probably add that I've got really good insulation in the attic, I had it sprayed with the closed cell polyurethane and doubled it up with another R-3 over the rafters. Heat or cooling won't be a problem there, although it'll be even easier in the basement.

Good point about not being too close to the antennas, RF in the shack could be a problem.

I've got pretty good power feeds up to the attic, but I can always use more and I know that I'll need a separate RF ground system in either place. I figured I'd have stiffer AC power closer to the box and easier to run more. I figure that getting a good RF ground will be harder to do when I'm more than 20 ft off the ground in the attic. I've got all my water, gravity heat and gas pipes bonded together and I could extend that into the attic to add to the ground system, but I'm closer to all that in the basement and I don't know if trying to use all that pipe is going to cause it to radiate.

As you say, lots to consider.

Thanks for the input!

Greg

There is that to consider. In my house it's a partial flight up to the main floor from the side door and a little further down to the basement, no space on the main floor though. The attic is two floors up a twisty staircase. I removed the plate transformer from the BC-610, which took it down to about 300 lbs when we took it up to the attic but we could only get 4 people on the staircase. Not fun but not too bad; that's the biggest single piece I'll have to move. On the other hand, the Super Pros and SX-28s aren't exactly light and they are already in the basement.

Luckily, I've got a nice dry basement.

Another benefit of the basement is that it's two floors away from my sleeping wife at 2 AM.

I shouldn't have waited until I'm 60 to get into large boat anchors, and black powder artillery. It would have been easier on my back if I'd done it 20 years ago; of course I didn't have the disposable income then!

Greg

Stick it in the basement, it's cooler, and down hill. Plus in the dark the pubbs glow warmer and in the winter it keeps the space warm.

One other thing to consider about the basement location that I've not seen listed yet, Greg: leaking or burst plumbing. Someone posted about this 2-3 years back, and I personally had a pipe split 2 winters ago on the 1st floor while I was home, fortunately. A lot of water and damage, fast.

There are pros and cons for either, in the end it'll be whatever you're most comfortable with. Hauling heavy rigs down the basement stairs as they arrive may seem easy now with gravity on your side, but eventually, some will have to go back up.

The water meter is in the room in the basement that the shack would go into, but there isn't any other plumbing there, unlike the rest of the basement. It's in really good shape since I redid it all in the last 10 years, although nothing is fool proof.  ;D

It's true that some gear will have to come out eventually, but the basement is lots easier than 5 turns on the stairs on the way up to the attic.

I guess I'm leaning towards the basement, in which case my wife will get the space in the attic that would have been the shack. In either case, redoing the attic space is saving me a bunch of heat, and giving me lots more heated and cooled space.

Does anybody have any experience with RF grounding in a shack 20 ft off the ground?

Todd makes an outstanding point.  I have never had water in the basement from outside sources, but leaking water heaters, pinholes in copper pipes, overflows from the laundry (becuase the purge pump died) and most recently, a plugged A/C condensate drain have caused more than my fair share of basement puddles.

Even without leaks, you have water vapor coming up and through your basement walls. How cool is your basement? The cooler, the more evaporation you have. I have a temperature and humidity logger, and left it down there for a while. It ranged from 80% to 95% (max of range). On bad days, it could get very musty - I'm sure there was mold.

I changed my ventilation and have a RH controlled dehumidifier. Unless I turn the fans and dehumidifier off for a long trip, I can keep it at 60-75% locally.

You've seen what moisture does to radios. Attic radios are always clean. Basement radios corrode.

In fact, I'd vote for the attic for that reason AND you can install sound-deadening materials and feedline feedthrus easy up there without condensation issues AND having a station in the attic up winding stairs is really cool. You belong in the aether, not in the ground.

Another factor would be the likelihood of flooding.  Your QTH may not have flooded for decades, but still, it may inside a 100-year, 500-year or 1000-year flood plain.  There is no guarantee that the 1000-year flood won't occur to-morrow.  Ask some of the folks on the Gulf coast, who lost 300 years-old houses during Katrina and Rita.

I would take ground floor as first choice, an upstairs floor as second, and basement as last choice.  If the house is in a flood plain, I would take an upstairs as first choice.  I have seen too much stuff ruined from basement moisture.

whatever you do, dont stick it in a uncooled garage that is facing the afternoon sun. My air temps in there have hit over 105 at times.

I vote basement with 2 strong dehumidifiers and a damn good sump pump just in case. Make sure everything is off the floor 4 or 5 inches. Nothing beats a cool basement shack when it's 100+ degrees outside.

keeping the fils lit will make some natural dehumid atction going, some big bags of silica gel, will help as well. When they get saturated,
cook em in he oven and put em back in th radio cabinet.

I like to be able to see something when I operate - a good view is a big plus for me personally.

There is always the option of <gasp>
                      _-_-bear

There were a lot of unhappy basement hams out here in 2006 and 2007 as we got two 100 year storms a year apart.

Im on top of a hill and 500' above the rivers, streams and creeks that run all thru this and surrounding towns. RF ground isnt a concern here since there isnt one on rock and Ive yet to observe a RF related problem at 1500W on 160M to 432 MHz. Even the power company cant get a good ground for at least a mile on this street.

If you are on a 100% guaranteed safe spot then a basement can be the best spot as it allows a lot of room for expansion as well as usually being near the tools and spare parts plus a workbench or three. In my case I run two dehumidifiers when necessary. However the basement is 64' long and is two hamshacks, restoration and repair, my microwave consulting biz lab, mini machine shop and a 50 year parts accumulation 8). The two floors above are for living and my office so there is one station on the ground floor and another in the upstairs BR....I dont like to miss much.

The walk up attic is both radio storage on multiple racks of commercial shelving ( I can relate to the weight of much of that gear!) and remotely operated UHF thru microwave ham gear that will be feeding the new tower bracketed to the house. Feedline loss was the primary concern.

So I guess Ive got all the above suggestions well covered ;D

As long as youve put all that effort into the attic then give it a try for awhile. The BC-610 has a very small footprint and Id be concerned about the weight. You may wish to lay down a couple of 2" thick boards long enough to cover at least 4 floor joists to spread the load. And have it over a load bearing wall.

I followed my own advice in the attic.

Carl
KM1H

Attic and basement both have their advantages.  While moisture and water could be a problem in the basement, it can be controlled.  Here in Georgia, most houses are built on hilly land, and usually have main entry to the home in the higher elevation, and a garage door to the basement at the lower side of the lot.  This makes it easy to get the BC rigs and boat-anchors in and out of the basement shack. 

When I brought the BTA-1MX into the basement, it came in through the boat door horizontally on two furniture dollys, then I used a come-along to pull it upright.  There is not enough ceiling height to stand it up where the ceiling is finished, I had to move it to an unfinished area (between floor joists) to stand it upright, as the diagonal measure is taller than the ceiling.  Keep this in mind when you finish your basement if you plan a tall BC rig.

I built a separate shack in the second story of a storage building behind my house.  Sheetrocked walls and ceiling with stipple finish, carpet, air conditioning, and underground utilities (240VAC, 100 amps from main panel in the house).  I also buried three runs of hardline (scrapped by the local cable service) between the house and remote shack, as well as phone, network, fibre, and control cables.   I plan to remote control the boat anchors from the remote shack. 

Perhaps you should think about the possibility of running the heavy metal in the basement, but put a remote operating position up in the attic with some of the smaller, lighter equipment.  VHF and UHF upstairs, as it is usually smaller and lighter, and makes for shorter feed to the antenna.  HF BAs could be in the basement shack.  Keep the options open, and do what make the most pleasant operating experience.   Keep some of the equipment operational from the basement shack, so you can listen and jump in while you are in the workshop.

My shack is in the basement; I'm at 1200 ASL so i'm not worried. The house has a sump without a pump. I run a dehumidifier as insurance, and i'm in the process of sealing the basement walls as insurance against moisture Influx. Yes, its the temperature differential that causes condensation, but you can get ground moisture through the wall.

 MY problem is Mr. Toad. He scares me. He stands up and looks throught the window at me.


klc

I've had'em both and I prefer the dungeon. It floods now once in a while so I'm 2nd floor now off the rec room.

When the last kid goes I'm settling her bedroom on the first floor. Close enuf for a good ground...... closer to the kitchen..... closer to the bathroom and closer to my honey!

I have a split shack arrangement, the "contesting" shack with modern gear and the big amp is in the ground floor of the barn (which is built into the side of a hill) and the room is finished and air conditioned.  This room is close to the tower with a 4 element triband quad and the Hy Gain Hy Tower and lets me operate contests without disturbing the rest of the household.  Between the air conditioner and a dehumidifier, humidity has never been an issue and since it is partially "underground" it is fairly easy to keep at a comfortable temperature.  However, since my 4 year old was born I have had very little time (or inclination) to contest; probably this will change in the future.

I have one room on the first floor of the main house (originally the "parlor") that contains the Ranger/Desk KW/SX-88, a Drake 7 line, and some Collins gear that tends to get the most usage.  It is conveniently located so I can run into the kitchen for food and drink which is nice!  This is an area I keep neat since it gets a lot of exposure.

But the majority of the vintage gear is in the basement shack  (36X24) and it is my favorite environment since it is cool and quiet.  This shack was built as part of our master suite addition a couple of years ago and the poured concrete walls were sealed from the outside.  Current code required a sump pit to be built in and at the contractors suggestion I dropped in a sump pump so I could give all of the concrete a good wash down before building shelves for the equipment.  But the house is on a hill so water is not an issue.  I also have some gear in the older basement that is part of the original construction (1901) and a pair of dehumidifiers keep the humidity in that area at 60% which seems dry enough to avoid problems; most of the gear in this section is Navy gear anyway so it better be pretty humidity resistant!

I much prefer the basement and if you can avoid flooding concerns (good sump pump plus battery backed unit if you really depend upon a sump pump) and use dehumidifiers to keep the moisture in check a basement shack is hard to beat.  I have a couple of windows at ground level so I can be aware of the weather (and so Siam Sam the shack cat can have a place to sit).  My local contractor was very interested in the vintage gear and he and his brother helped me move my Gates BC-250 into the new basement during construction; I don't plan to ever take it back out but I do have a 48" walkout which provides good access for bringing home new hamfest finds.  Good luck with your decision and do be careful of floor loading if you go with the attic choice.

Attached are some views of "basement world"

Rodger

Well whatever you do, and How are you by the way....

Add: 1 Small refrigerator.
       1 Sturdy Wastebasket.
       1 Pencil Sharpener.
       1 Good Sized Flashlight.
       1 Flyswatter.
       1 Decent Sized hanger for the test probes an jumper cables.
       1 Chair that is Form fitting and Sturdy.(preferably with Wheels)


the rest is relative.

73 jack.

  

Looks like the responses have hit on all of the pitfalls and benefits of attic vs basment. I like the basement to distance the equipment from the aerials and be closer to the magical ground system. And to have easier access to 220vac.
If there are situations with sump pumps and water coming in during long periods of rain or melting snow, then I would head for higher ground. I witnessed a neat attic station at HUZ radio, when Steve was living in Baltimore. No RFI and the structure handled the heavy metal very well. Those were the great Gangsta days with DERB and the other radio folks.

Fred

I went with a room in the 2nd floor of our house. Not a big, but makes my collection look like I have  more.

We have daughters who are 11 and 13. Being in the main part of the house allows me to be a part of the family and still enjoy my hobby.

Carl
/KPD

For many years as WA3YPI, I had a 2nd story shack, previously a small bedroom in an old farmhouse.  I had lots of RF on 20 meters and then ran a separate, different length ground wire.  Never did get rid of all RF problems.   

Since '95 after moving to WVa I now have a basement shack, the main breaker panel is about 5 ft. from the op. desk and very easy to get to.  Made a 240 drop from it very easily by tying onto the 'downstream' side of a 240/60 amp. breaker supplying the barn thru buried cable.  So that part's easy and very little RF biting from 'lifted' grounds in ordinary hamming.  RF feedback on the other hand, what with computers, digital mode boxes, etc. is as hard to handle as ever.  Regardless of location sometimes elimination of RF feedback, etc. seems to be as much art as practice. 

But you know what I miss the most of all from the 2nd floor shack?. 
The View.
Yeah, I now have a small basement window 'up high' in the wall and it's only useful for telling if it's day, night, bright or dim outside. Even storms are unnoticable unless raining very hard and rain is dropping from the veg. outside close to the window. 

Yeah, gotta go with the first floor of the house if'n I had to do it all over again.
Might still.  Best of all worlds.

See who's coming and going.
See the weather, the landscape, the sky.
We seem to operate better with natural daylight shining down upon us.

Snow scenes in the winter.
Sturm and Drang, coming from over the hills in the summer.
oh, lost my train of thought.

Once in a while a glance at the freq. readout or dial, remember I'm in QSO and not looking at deer, squirrils and once in a long whlile turkey.
Even the op. location at the upstairs computer (mostly wife's stuff) has a real good view of backyard, back '40' and woods. 

So if you have dormer windows in the attic, something you can see out of and not just skylights, I'd go for the attic.  Run counterpoises on bands that give you trouble, etc.  RFI will still be an issue regardless of where you are.  If you can't see much out of the attic, then down to the dungeon with you...
A lot of other things will be easier.  ;D

The problem with using a sump pump to keep a basement from flooding, is that when you need it the most during an extended downpour, that is the most likely time for a power outage to occur, caused by a nearby lightning strike or high wind.

I don't have a basement and even though the house is on a small hill, water used to stand under the house in the crawl space.  I JS'ed with a sump pump for years, and the thing always seemed to flake out when its service was needed, and water and high humidity were damaging to the foundation and rotting the framing.

So I built a "French drain" along the front and back sides of the house,  basically a septic field line working in reverse, which collects the water in a gravel-filled ditch before it can run under the house, and takes it down the hill, using a 6"  diameter PVC drain pipe.  Now it is dry as a bone under the house year round, and during a heavy rainfall I  can go down to the end of the drain pipes and watch the huge column of water rushing out.  Before I installed the drain system, all that water would have gone under the house and stayed there to stagnate.

The hardest part of the project was digging the ditches.  I did it mostly by hand, but the one crossing the front lawn had to be laid 4' deep at one point to keep the drain pipe sloping downhill, so I rented a small backhoe to dig that section.  The entire project cost me close to $1800 (not counting my physical work), but if I had got it done professionally, the cost would have run between $5k and $10k and it probably would not have been done right.

CARL
your pubes are really glowing OM. Must be some heavy music going through while hooked up to the dummy load for testing.

Fred

Not really
That pic was taken in QRP Mode

Carl /KPD

only 105?

my vote: basement. I wish I had a basement. I like bunkers and industrial decor. One thing if there is any worry about plumbing - it might be worthwhile to place some cinderbock/concrete blocks where your racks and operating position will be, and either build a deck from wood or lay down a (large) piece of sheet steel. Your station sits on that. In case of a plumbing disaster, there may  be time to turn off the water before it gets into the rigs. The old raised floor concept.

I've had attic, garage and basement radio rooms. The basement is the best by far since it's a walk-in basement, so getting big radios in and out is easy. And it's dry, well insulated and is heated and cooled.

The garage was great for getting stuff in and out too (just  roll up the door and roll the stuff in or out), but it was uninsulated and had no built in heating or cooling. If it had been well insulated, it might have been the best arrangement since it provided lots of room, it was a stand alone building (a true radio shack) and it provide excellent RF shielding (it had a tin roof and aluminum side). That shielding combined with having the antennas more that 100 feet away meant no RFI issues in the shack.

me and the missus are saving up to get a window cut in the side of the house and a window installed so we can install a good sized AC window unit for next summer. Most days, you just cant stay in there at all. between the heat, my health problems,  and being shuttled around like a piece of luggage between her job and my dad's house for 3 to 4 days a week, I just cant get anything done.

One good thing - I'm less than 6ft from the 200A service entrance. Now that I have drug insurance again I wont be shelling out >$600 a month just for my drugs after this Friday. Going to install a dedicated surface mounted 100 amp sub box with conduit mounted to the wall just for radios and most of all, The Mauls.

Professional services are very cheap here. The GFI breaker is still kicking out due to RF. I can make it kick out just from the Yaesu keying down. A couple of nice guys from a business called Todd Electric I've had here before are gonna fix me up right.

 " The problem with using a sump pump to keep a basement from flooding, is that when you need it the most during an extended downpour, that is the most likely time for a power outage to occur, caused by a nearby lightning strike or high wind. "

For thems in a situation simular to Don's, there are a few methods of interest. One is a battery backup for the sump pump. Another way is to install a water powered sump pump. It works the same way as a normal pump, but the power source is a water supply....  preferably a municipal water system, not a well.

http://www.radonseal.com/pumps/water-powered-pumps.htm

klc

In this area it is almost a necessity to have a backup generator as power failures are the norm during storms.
 
Even a deep cycle battery and inverter wont keep a pump running very long.

During one extended winter outage the carb on my 5KW generator decided to plug up. Used the 1500W inverter, connected to the daily beater Taurus, that normally serves at outdoor 'fests and kept the furnace and forced hot water circulators running thru the night in 15* weather. Needless to say I overhauled the carb shortly after daylight.

In rural New Hampshire ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

Carl
KM1H

You can build a 'water powered' pump yourself.  It, of course, depends on a city water supply that has pressure and is operated by the venturi effect or what we called a "syphon" in the nat. gas business. We use air compressors feeding across a side tapped venturi tube to vacuum draw and exhaust nat. gas from pipeline sections to remove the last vestiges of gas for safety reasons before welding pipe on that section, repairing valves, etc.

In the water driven pump "City" water is first regulated to a managable pressure,(the device on the right side of the sales pix) then run through a constriction, say 1" reduced to 1/4" internal ID, where the input water is connected to the center of the "T"  as shown. 

When water or gas/air is constricted in it's flow, it's velocity increases and the pressure lowers in the constricted section.  This in effect exerts a relative "vacuum" on the water inlet port thus pulling water into the main venturi stream from the side port of the "T."

The reason 'city' water is used assumes only a local power outage.  IF your city power goes down and you don't have a local generator, say to pump your well, then your ventrui pump goes down too.

Sorry for the tortured language, but the water driven pump assumes a pressured water supply by others even through emergencies.   If your using your own generator then, of course, you can use any electric pump, sump, trash, garden hose or otherwise.

Hi Rick ... I believe the pump you describe is called an eductor ... can use compressed air as well ..use them quite a bit in the nuclear biz ... woooooosh ....beefus

Yeah, you used correct terminology.  In the patch the old hands just called them syphons...     I always thought that was incorrect terminology. In my lexicon a syphon uses natural air pressure to move liquid from a higher level to lower,.... say like your stealing gas  ;D

But then who was I as a budding eng'r years ago when I first heard the term to correct the ol' boys. 
"Not I," said the little red hen.

So if you think eductors are loud you ought to hear a gas well "blowin' down" from 5000 psi. to atmosphere through 7 inch casing.  Used to do this to remove entrained liquids from well bore in Northern Pa. gas storage fields, back before the state agencies and EPA frowned on such.  Even in those days, a lot of us knew it was destructive to the well bore, producing face, etc.   A lot of people had to retire before the practice fully stopped.

"who knows what goes on in the backwoods if nary a soul (that matters) is around to hear it."

dun, di, dun, - dun, dun...... (guitar pickin' - not dueling.)

Yeah you could have a whole house shack like WA1HUD. The only place I did not find a station was in the upstairs bathroom (but I did not look that hard, so there could have been a Heath Twoer in the medicine cabinet).

I would absolutely avoid the basement for the other reason cited, and - and probably more importantly -

     ->the psychological factor.  <-

It's usually not naturally lighted, below ground, beneath other people walking around (I **hate** that sound), and - well, in the cellar  ;)

Can't you take some unimportant room like the dining room or living room  ;D  for the shack??   :D

Oh, on RF in the shack, etc........ if you go upstairs, USE FOIL FACED, HARD BOARD INSULATION (thermax) and bond the faces with METALIZED DUCT TAPE.  I did this in my own house (1 inch TherMax), with metalized WIDE duct tape, and I ended up with a fairly effective shield.  AM radio reception is _MUCH_ weaker inside than out, and cell phones often don't work inside (and I can _see_ the cell tower less than 1 mile away !!!!!!).  So, I can attest to the effectiveness of the shielding.

Put the fiberglass against the walls and celings, and the TherMax over that. 

Of course an addition on the first floor would be the berries !!!

Regards,

Steve

Lots to think about from everybody!

The attic has a thermax lining over the polyurethane foam to give me a bit more insulation and a thermal break over the 2x4 rafters. I like the view. With the new insulation, and I've still got to finish the Thermax, it doesn't get much warmer than outside ambient temps and it won't take much to air condition. I also doubled up all the attic floor joists when I redid the floor, insulation and wiring; the support for that floor is a bit iffy, since the people who built the house were brick layers but didn't know anything about interior framing.

On the other hand, the basement doesn't bother me either, I used to be a submarine sailor.  :)

My basement hasn't had any water in it since it was built in 1915, it's as dry as a bone and my regular shop space is in the next room. The main breaker box is right there and RF grounds are easier. I'm high and dry and way outside any flood plain. The room I would use is the only one without any major plumbing, and what plumbing I have in the basement is all new copper.

I'm still undecided but leaning toward the basement.

Thanks to everyone for the input!

Greg

Greg,
Well, you've just described my shack.  Still on Steve's amwindow.org.
http://amwindow.org/pix/htm/w3rsw/w3rsw1.htm (http://amwindow.org/pix/htm/w3rsw/w3rsw1.htm)
 Note the breaker panel covered by QSL's in the background.

I still miss the views I had in my old second story shack.
I don't miss the crap behind the camera's lens that you don't see  ;D

That's a nice clean shack. I like the "Shoebox".

I know what you mean about all the stuff behind the camera; I'm going to have to get rid of about half of everything I own to get things uncluttered and my garage hasn't had a car in it in years! :)

I'd opt for the basement as long it is a dry area.  Just a warning though. 2 years ago I had a crap out with the plumbing over the operator position and gear got wet (but not soaked).  Even in a house that is only a few years old I wouldn't trust the plumbing.  Try to locate your gear from plumbing if possible.

"  MY problem is Mr. Toad. He scares me. He stands up and looks throught the window at me.  "


Well, he's back. He's trying to get in through the window.


klc

We in California suburbia don't have this problem.

No one has a basement, and no one has a usable attic.

I use a one car garage with a slab floor.

Hi Dave,

I grew up in a Detroit suburb and moved to California right after High School. I spent 30 years in the Sacramento area. I loved the fact that cars didn't rust and lasted as long as the owner wanted them to last BUT the fact that houses came without basements was a real bummer. When I moved back in 2000 my first priority was to find a house with a DRY large basement. I'm happy to say I found one but cars still melt prematurely from the salt on the roads. They don't rot nearly as fast as in the 1970's but it still makes me sick to see a 10 year old vehicle rust through.

Mike

My first shack as a JN in high school was in an unfinished upstairs attic space in a dormer.  I don't think I even had an RF ground up there.  Maybe a wire to some roughed in plumbing that was  at the floor level for the bathroom that eventually went in the space.  It was a perfect spot for a small shack, right next to my bedroom, but boy was it hot in summer - Ir ended up in the left rear corner of the basement.  The basement in that house had no bulkhead or other ground access.  I was given a Navy TDQ VHF transmitter that never made it down there because it was too big and heavy to be brought through the house. It may still be in a shed in Steve, KL7JT's parents yard.

When we moved into our current house in 1979 I didn't have a lot of BA gear, and set up my SB line in our family room.  That was really very comfortable, but there were obvious conflicts when Diane and or the kids were watching TV.  After Diane found a 2 year old Ben  pulling the cables out of the back of one of the radios, I relocated to the left rear corner of the basement.  It's a very good location to have a short RF ground and has ground level access through the garage as the house is built into the side of a slope.  Also easy to run cable from one section of the shack to another in the overhead.  The workbench is on right there also.  We used to run a dehumidifier in the basement in really hot humid weather, but over the years it seems that the ground beneath the basement slab has dried up somewhat and it's usually never too sticky down there anymore.   In the winter it's usually pretty cozy down there and in the summer usually the coolest part of the house unless the A/C is being used upstairs.  I think the main disadvantage of a basement shack is that unless you frame off a dedicated room down there you eventually have a lot of encroachment of non-radio stuff that makes the space look like, well, a basement.

If you do have a basement shack, be  careful of where you site you gear relative to the plumbing.  The main header for the cold water supply goes right over my main operating table.   I was surprised with a lot of condensation dripping off the header onto some gear when Diane did some extended plant  and lawn watering in hot weather.

My ideal shack would be a small separate outbuilding with a little woodstove, or a big 4X1 rig help heat it in winter, and direct ground level access to move in the big stuff.  I think we all probably have thought about having this type of shack, which in our mind's eye probably looks like something out of the old QST Gil How's DX cartoons back in the day, with a pair of big feed through insulators bringing in the OWL feeder.

We hams have had real man-caves way before The Goose's TV show.

Just scanned the earlier posts of this thread (I clicked on the new button the first time) and was startled to see a post by the Derb.  This is apparently a pretty old topic I must have missed the first time around.

Some of my heavy stuff (Desk KW, BC-610) is in a separate room on the main floor but the rest is in the basement.  My house is located on a high piece of ground and the basement has high capacity floor drains so water isn't a problem.  I do keep a couple of dehumidifiers set up which keep the humidity in the mid 50% range.  Nothing highly valuable is directly underneath the plumbing lines.

With a basement location you don't have to worry about overloading the floor :)  I have a Gates BC-250GY along with a lot of other heavy boxes down there.  The basement has a walkout so it is very easy to get stuff in/out. 

I had that same problem for the same reason Cris. My main water line passes over my work bench test gear riser. I was sick when I saw puddles of water on the riser and gear. I fixed the condensation problem with foam pipe insulation. The insulation looks good and the humid air can't get to the pipe. No more drips.

I use two dehumidifiers. I have never seen a leak in the basement walls or floor and the sump will discharge maybe once every 10 days. The relative humidity in the basement will hang at about 45% during the summer with no help. I want that lower for two reasons. I was told that spiders have trouble surviving with humidity lower than 30% so I find fewer webs and obviously I don't want anything to corrode.

Mike

I guess it depends in the type of spider.

I grew up in Phoenix and Tucson and we had plenty of spiders -- including lots of black widows,  was below 30% most of the time.

One advantage of using a converted garage as a shack is, if you keep the garage door in place, you have a way to get big stuff in and out.

A disadvantage is that garages are not usually insulated -- at least here in California.

It's not enough to have the shack in the basement--it has to be an unfinished basement.   Dummy load springs a leak?   Deoxit didn't all hit its target?  no problem.

But the downside is ... basement flooding.  Never had one yet, but I get nervous when we have these 6 inches of rain in an hour type downpours.  My dehumidifier is set on 40%.  It drains right into the basement floor drain.  I'd love to have a big door with an excavated concrete ramp outside.  Right now, anything heavy has to be disassembled in the garage and carried in piece by piece or chassis by chassis.  Big iron etc. has to come down the stairs on a dolly with me and a helper.  One thing I'd like to do but will probably never get around to, is coating the floor with that epoxy paint.   For a 70 year old house the foundation is (I'm told by inspectors) in great shape. 

During my teen-age years my shack was in my upstairs bedroom. During my career with RCA from 1949 to 1980 my shack was in the basement, dry, needing no dehumidifier. On retirement to Florida in 1980 I had a 24' x 30' cement block shack built on a slab behind the in-ground 14' x 30' pool. (A walk through the sliding glass doors from the kitchen and you're on the pool deck.)

Anyway, my present shack in Florida requires a dehumidifier, due to the high inherent humidity.

Aside from all that, I must say that in my 78 years of hamming I have never used an RF ground. Never found it necessary, because I never had a problem with uncontrollable RF in the shack. Of course I grounded the radio equipment together, but never more of a  connection to real ground other than through the AC power ground.

Werked fer me!

Walt

I've been using a temporary RF ground on my slab. It is 20FT of old 50-ohm computer coax and the shield is the conductor for the purpose. That stuff was called "thin wire", used to be used with old DEC VAX stuff, and has a very good double shield. I just hook it to the tuner and lay it in a back and forth loop on the floor behind the racks. I suppose it couples to the rebar or whatever. All the equipment in use is connected in-line with either the same stuff or # 12 or 10 copper wire and connected with a shortest possible wire to whatever rack it is in.

Since using the temporary ground there has been no problem of hot controls or feedback but I am only running 500-800W peak power. Later I think I'll drill some 1" holes in the floor and pound in a couple of ground rods just to be sure.

Anyway with no basement I'm all for a ground level slab unless there is a flood issue. Tonnage on an upper floor does not seem like a good idea. For humidity, the a/c is set to 80 year round but I should be using a dehumidifier for the cool weather days.

  LIVING ON A SMALL HILL HAS IT ADVANTAGES.  I HAVE A BETTER GROUND AND SHORTER GROUND RUNS

Probably not too many floods either.

Yo'

  Got water in my basement last night. First time since "Old Buzzard
Bob" W8EPQ passed. Can't recall when that was but it's been a while.
The wife and I were sitting down here having coffee the morning of
his funeral, The water came up so fast, we didn't even hear it. It came
up from the drains.

   My fear is that with "Union" membership hitting an all time high in lows,
and with the EPA Mandating extensive sewer re-work, that will be the
new "Slush Fund" for our PECKER's.

"Pubicly Elected City or Kounty Executive Representatives"

   OTOH if its upstairs you could get a tornado. Our PECKER's are playing
with the NWS too.

It's really a "Crap Shoot".

/Dan

My shack is in the basement. I have a water tight basement so no problem there. But did experience 2 plumbing problems in the last 8 years of being here. Some reconfiguration and beef-up will prevent repeats.  Not to worried about it now. Got excellent grounding and power supply.  Heating and cooling not an issue. I just wish I had some windows.

A digital camera with a big screen looking at the back yard - and a mic piping in the birds wud be the next best thang... ;D

Frame out a box, stick in a few flo resent tubes, throw the switch; cover with some curtains... thars yer window.


Go to the AM window and download the crickets.

http://www.amwindow.org/audio/htm/wa1mtz.htm


klc

Curtains? Curtains?  Real men dont need no stinkin curtains! ! ! ! ! !  :o  ;D

I had a second story shack in Georgia during the 90's.  Had about 35 feet of wire between the TX and the closest ground rod.  I experienced a wide variety of "Bad RF Ground" related issues that I never fully resolved. 

I tried one of those MFJ ground tuners, 1/4 wave stubs attached to the TX ground, and multiple, different length, runs to the ground system.    I was out of ideas and contemplating moving the shack to the basement but got transferred to Texas before I got around to it.

I'd vote for the basement.

Currently the KZ5A shack is in a 25x50 all steel barn with a serious RF ground system accessible about 6 feet from the TX's, best setup ever.  I even use the structure as the counterpoise for a 160,80, 40 vertical installed dead center on the middle of the roof and have zero RF ground issues.

I'm speaking to you from inside the antenna!!!!

73 Jack KZ5A

"Curtains? Curtains?  Real men dont need no stinkin curtains! ! ! ! ! !  :o  ;D "


Foiled again...

SRI, OM,

I am humbled.

Frame out a box, stick in a few flo resent tubes, throw the switch;   Grab a piece 'o plexiglass, rub it up with steel wool, cover the frame ... thars yer window.

Now, I feel clean.


klc

In my 51 years of operating, I have used shack locations in a basement, upstairs bedroom, garage and first floor bedroom/office room in s single story house.  I have found the most important thing that you need to do to keep RF out of the shack is to properly couple the feed line to the antenna at the antenna feed point.  I have a 4BTV on the roof, and a 1/2 wave end fed "L" for 75 which also works as a 1/4 wave end fed "L" on 160.  I have 13 radials on the 4BTV and use a large length of chain link fence for the "L" to operate against.  The roof mounted 4BTV was tuned for minimum VSWR per the book, and I built a hi to lo impedance matching circuit for the "L" on 75.  On 160, no matching circuit is needed as the minimum VSWR sits right around 1850.  I do have a feed line choke at the feed point for each antenna.  The ground in the shack is for the AC mains.  Outside, I have the coax lines connected through a lightning arrestor to the feed into the room window.  There is an 8 foot ground rod in the back yard to which the lightning arrestor is connected, and also a run of #4 solid copper wire from the rod to the AC mains ground at the house mains entry point.

I have no RF in the shack, even running up to 800 watts out.

I learned a long time ago in my broadcast career that matching the antenna at the feed point is very important to provide an adequate RF ground at the feed point.  You don't want 50kw coming back in at you.   Then, simply grounding the indoor equipment together at a single point, and connecting that point to the mains ground results in an "RF cold" shack, and no AC mains "bites" among all the pieces of equipment.

Keeping the RF out of the shack for me is making sure all of the RF I am generating is going out through the INSIDE of the coax, and transferred to the antenna with no reflections back toward the shack, or conducted back via the outside of the coax cable.   YMMV, but that works for me, and I thought I'd pass it along.


73
Ted  W8IXY

KZ5A and K8IXY --

I agree with both of you. I have a 5-BTV on the metal roof of a metal-sided house. I took care to ensure that the antenna gound side was well-bonded to the metal roof and that the roof panels are well-bonded to each other. There are no RF problems inside the house and the antenna works very well with no radials. Outside of about 200 miles. It ain't worth a damn for close-in work. Gotta have a dipole for that. But a vertical on a metal roof is a great radiator. At least at my house. YMMV.

Like Jack, "I am speaking to you from inside the antenna".

ldb

Once I get the basement water problems resolved I'm moving back to the basement. I'm on the second floor now and have no problems but I miss the basement. That's my first choice.

Be CERTAIN to get a  kit from one of the home improvement stores and check RADON  the levels in ur basement!!

Quite frankly I never even thought about it for a second...

In the course of checking out a new potential QTH, I ran two kits (~$10ea with the lab included) and found a ~2.0 picocuries level. Now this is below the federal warning level of 4.0 picocuries, BUT it represents a 3x-4x times increase in the potential for lung cancer!!

Given the time I spend in my lab/shack, it's a big consideration.

If I get the new QTH, I'll have to have a go at sealing the boundaries around the floating slabs in the basement, and sealing the slab and maybe the concrete block walls as well, then retest. The tests need to be done with the air not moving and the room sealed. One of the big problems is that if you run hot air heat, or central air, you could be pumping Radon gas through the house... btw, and fwiw, I read that Radon is heavier than air by 6x... (don't sleep in the floor in ur basement?)

                     _-_-bear

That's actually not a bad idea.  I have a few LCD computer monitors doing nothing.  I could hang them on the walls.

A radon test was part of getting the CO here 8 years ago.  No radon or should I say way below gov. standards. CT has some of the highest radon concentrations in the US. Even the well water supply was tested for radon since the well is over 300ft down.

Here is a Radon risk map by county.

Looks like most of Central and Northern California is OK.

Plus we don't have basements anyway.

Dave

3 or 4 years ago I got one of those radon testing kits and put it in my basement away from the furnace and a few feet above  the floor and left it there for around 15 months.  then i sent it in to a lab for evaluation.  The report that came back was a post card with the level measured.  it was 0.6 picocuries above the acttion level whatever that was, 2 or 4, I forget.

That's all the card said.  it didn't provide any frame of reference for this, i.e. was this way way up there as in you'll die in a year if you don't turn your house into a superfund site, or was this so low, it is statistically insignificant?   So I was left to perform my own investigation into the statistics, which is what I did.  What I learned from gathering data, reading and talking to people who study radioactive agents in the environment professionally, was that if you don't smoke, (that is an important distinction) being at 0.6 over the action level is statistically insignificant. 

The other thing consumers should know is that all of these radon remediation businesses never guarantee that they will completely eliminate radon from your dwelling.   What they guarantee is that they will get you below the EPA action limit.  That's all.  So I could have paid some business to have some guys come in and install all kinds of duct work and ventilation for a few thousand bucks and gotten down to around 0.3 or 0.5 below the EPA picocurie limit (It is some no. of picocuries per unit of volume which you have to convert to some other measuremennt for some of the statistical reports) and these guys wouild have collected their fee, considered their work done and left.  And my probability of a health complication would have been unchanged. 

This is the part of the whole radon thing that in my opinion is a racket.   You get no barometer or reference frame with the test result to give you an idea of how bad your situaiton is, then you get some outfit who will charge you hundreds, or thousands of dollars to do work that doesn't really lower your risk if you are just a tad over the limit. 

Important:  Everyone should still have the test done if they reside in a radon area (usually the upper Midwest and East) and if the result is extremely high, i.e. 20 picocuries for example,  then that is an entirely different matter and they should have the remediation work done.   My point was that at the low end, if you fall into the 2-5 range and don't smoke, the radon risk drops below the noise level.

I tested our granite counters in the kitchen with a Geiger counter. There was measurable radioactivity there -- about equal to two extra dental xrays per year.

Not totally sure about the accuracy of the Geiger counter as it hasn't been professionally calibrated, but the radio activity was measurable.

On another hazard, we have some communities in the Sierra Nevada foothills where there is naturally occurring asbestos in the soil. When you sell a house in these areas there are special disclosures you have to make to the buyer. This is probably more of a problem in this part of California than radon.

If one thing doesn't get you, another will.