The AM Forum

The thundering silence in response to my announcement of the New Amateur Radio Forum gives me great pause.

I am not sure if it means no one reads Announcements or that AM'ers do not wish to discuss politics on the air or even talk about discussing it.

So, perhaps a discussion about discussing it might be in order.

It is my humble opinion that discussing politics on the air is one of the most usefull things that hams can do.  The so-call "blogosphere" exploded almost overnight but for some strange reason hams seem to be allergic to the subject and find contests more to their liking.

What does this say about hams?  Everything?  Nothing?

Is anyone going to tune it to ARF on Thursday?

Help!

Jack K9ACT ARF Thursday 3715 0300Z

Proverbs 17:27
A truly wise person uses few words
A person with understanding is even tempered

Proverbs 17:28
Even fools are thought wise when they keep silent
with their mouths shut they seem intelligent

which one is it Jack?

Well, I was trying to keep a straight head with that debate on going with Pete over in the League area and concentrate, I musta Missed the announcement...Jack

In my opinion I'd be careful with this, "On Air", There's alot of Dogma at present and Head Hunting seems to be the order of the day. (figure of Speech)..And,.. Alot of Folks are fed up with the Hippocracy right now as well...it may get heated OM.

I wonder how i could get Oprah to send me money to pay for college... ;D She Bought the Democratic Electorate... ;D..Over....LOL....

To me, your ARF net just sounds like a cheap immitation of Timtron's good old
"piss and moan net"!! Most times the immitations are no where as good as the original. YMMV. ::) ::)

                                         The Slab Bacon

It's harder, but far more constructive, to be positive in one's outlook.

From a dim recess in my memory there was a thing about not talking about "sex, religion and politics" on the air.   Probably some old buzzardom of the past.    My wife and I have made it a point not to discuss politics with some old friends, so that they will remain old friends, and it seems to be working out well.    The moderators, wisely have chosen that for this forum.   Being one, who has been censored in the past, I can see their wisdom now.
Save the politics for the ballot box, the only place that it does any good.

It's not so much to do with caring Jack, as caring to participate. We get bombarded with politics in every venue it seems, not to mention at work. Thrashing it about online or on the air IMO would serve no positive purpose beyond venting, and stands to lose you some friends who won't agree and will end up annoyed as a result. 

Then there's the reality: say one side uses logic backed up by facts, and the other side uses emotion backed up by truth. To me, that's a no-win situation. You're not going to change logic and fact with emotion and truth, or vice versa. Stubborn people are quite capable of ignoring what they choose not to hear or believe. Consider where most people get their political info and how few actually research it.

Best to handle such things off AMfone, including announcements of such. It's been tried here (the Inquirer) and failed miserably. The only positive outcome I saw was to sort out a few posters who clearly weren't here for AM or even amateur radio.

I have to echo Todd's statement as it reflects my feelings on the subject exactly.

The political nonsense gets shoved in our faces so much on TV and radio (commercial radio), in newspaper ads, email spam, junk snail mail, on billboards, bumper stickers, lawn signs, and pretty much everywhere else you look.

I get completely worn out on the whole "He said, She said, They said, This one did this, That one did that, blah, blah, blah....I feel the subject just sucks the intelligence from my brain like some sort of cerebral IQ vacuum and leaves me feeling dumber than I was at the beginning.

Besides, it's the fastest route to an 'on the air', or 'on the internet' argument that'll leave you wishing you could have that time back so you can do something constructive with it. (Like watch paint dry, or watch the lawn grow.)

Talking about politics is like arguing about the color of the sky, eventually it'll devolve into an argument and nothing would have changed.   

Free and open debate provides a platform for stating one's views and winning over others (as well as being won over) with powerful, well reasoned arguments. It can be a tonic against tyranny & ill considered policies if conducted in a sane & respectful way.  I agree that ham radio could be a vehicle for such debate. The difficulty would be keeping it respectful and dignified. But all worthwhile things are difficult.

I understand, but disagree, with those who prefer not to discuss certian issues. I  myself prefer freedom & the bright sunshine of open debate.

I'll tune in to the ARF to see how you pull this off.

Having run across these type of nets while tuning across the bands back in the 80’s and 90’s, in my opinion, these nets don’t foster any kind of on the air ham friendship and camaraderie.  I use to (and probably others did to) refer to them as the “wacko” type nets with the off-the-wall politicos, aliens who walk the earth, etc. type “views” and “discussions”.  One only has to review another well-known forum for hams that has a “political” type section to taste and sample how typical “joe ham” acts when he participates in this type of forum. I would bet you would see no difference in overall actions and responses if you brought it to an on the air type net. However, as long as you don’t violate any Part 97 rules, it’s your choice. 

However, trying to tag the AM mode and/or AM operators, with you acting as net control in the AM mode (as your Announcement indicated), is something I don’t agree with. I personally find it somewhat embarrassing as an AM’er  (since we’re perceived as a “special interest” group by the general ham population) to be associated with this, even indirectly, with this type of on the air activity.

Preferring/choosing not to discuss is also 'freedom'. For me, it's not the lively debate or exchange of views, but the venue. The little time I have for radio is enjoyed more doing 'radio' things rather than listening to personal rants and arguments, which it inevitably becomes when two 'correct' parties want to prove their respective points as being right. More often than not, the facts don't back up the personal opinion presented as 'the truth', and it goes downhill from there. I can have that at work, at home, at the pub - why would I want to soil my radio time with such?


Agreed. Not to mention the jamming and retaliation you attract. But hey - to each his own. Give it a go, let us know how it works out.  :)

Remember the AM Inquirer?

Remember how most AMers got along in spite of their different viewpoints prior to the Inquirer coming about?

Remember how those same AMers going over to the Inquirer and screaming at each other dissolved countless friendships and caused endless debates about nothing, until eventually one side pushed the other out, and all that was left was a bunch of people violently agreeing that the other side were the scum of the earth, to be hated and reviled for all eternity?

Now ask yourself: why in God's name would you want to bring that to the airwaves? It's not like the airwaves are lacking for hotheads getting into screaming contests about something as stupid as a divergence in political opinions.

There's no law that says you can't discuss politics and religion on the air, it's just something that people eventually realized would have no happy ending. Some person or group will get deeply offended, hold the other person/group in deep contempt, snipe at them on the air, eventually stoop to jamming, or worse.

If I wanted to turn on my radio and listen to a bunch of old men grouse about politics with no solutions on AM for the sake of grousing about politics with no solutions, I would turn on my AM broadcast receiver. No shortage of that there.

Why you'd want to pollute the amateur airwaves with that garbage is beyond me, but it's your license, and you have to live with the consequences if it gets heated beyond your ability to cool it down.

You break it, you own it.

--Thom
Killer Agony One Zipper Got Caught

I want a refuge from politics and religion.

Thom...... VFO  turn turn turn................

I agree with Terry the HI HI WX is FB om is a bigger bore A real friend can disagree with you, take or give a little heat and still be your real friend.

The reason no-one responded to your message posting is that the reply function is disabled on the Announcements forum.  I did listen on 3700 the other night, but heard nothing but QRN, although I may not have paid enough attention to the time/date.

I don't mind discussing sex, politics or religion over the air when it is done without sounding like an idiot. Sometimes it's fun to  "instigate" a controversial hot topic and then sit back and enjoy listening to the respondents argue amongst themselves (I think it's called "trolling" in internetspeak). 

However, I don't particularly care for mixed AM/SSB roundtables because it is such a pain to keep everyone tuned in.  Inevitably, AM stations will be off frequency, and the SSB stations are not always on the same frequency, particularly when different ones zero-beat with different AM'ers.

You are not promoting your group very well by touting to be the "Rush Limburger of ham radio".  We already have too many Limburger wannabees on the MW band, and besides, I wouldn't want to be associated with that scummy hot-air windbag. 

I'm a firm believer in F.A.R.T.S. (First Amendment Radio Transmitting Society) (http://www.hamfarts.com/). However, if we engage in controversial discussions over the air on AM, I would suggest to be careful to keep one's cool, remain civil and not give the AM mode a black eye. Make sure to operate in such a manner that any SWL's will perceive your "opponent" to be the jerk, not you. 

Opinions are like assholes; everybody has one and they all stink except one's own.

F.A.R.T.S. AM Page (http://www.hamfarts.com/am.htm)

Ah yes Don...the art of getting one's goat

Don,
      funny you should mention F.A.R.T.S. I was a member of that group and one of the founders when we all splintered off from the S.A.R.A. club. There was never much activity on their board, so I stopped checking on it. the link doesnt seem to work anymore, I guess Rick must have shut it down. I'll have to call him and ask him.
He quite often shows up at my place on friday nights.

                                                          the Slab Bacon

Ooooooppps I just checked the link again and it's working. Looks like they have picked up a few more members, Hmmmmm........... I still gotta call rick and mess with him ;D ;D

I never did participate in their board or work any F.A.R.T.S. groups over the air, just took it as something  that existed in the minds of the beholders.

Regarding political discussions.  I find topics such as the pros and cons of environmental issues, the energy and economic mess, as well as radio politics worthwhile discussing, but for the most part, actual mainstream partisan politics especially parroting one of the party lines, I find extremely boring except maybe for making fun of them.  I hear enough of that over the radio and see enough of it in the newspaper.  Don't hear or see much on TV because I rarely watch mainstream prime time TV, but I guess that's where it gets deep enough to need hip boots.

Schmidling 19:39

The wise man who keeps silent, squanders his wisdom

Schmidling 19:40

The ignorant man who asks no questions, stays that way.

js

Bill K 1:1:


"Opinions are like @ssholes, everybody's got one."

Repetitive Non-PoliticalNon-LiberalNon-GreenorBrownNon-GregarianNon-conservativeNon-democratic
Non-republican,in"G"Tuning,"and"outofvotes..in Class "C" need of Real Doe, Type, Request:

 Oprah Send Money Dad's Broke... CQ all Oprahs... ;D No politics necessary...Void where Inhibited....it's been one of those daz...today...I quit.... 8)

Now, when someone whose had a day like that, and really needs "something" relaxing...um, I have a feeling Political Innuendo, "on air" might not be a good thing..

Unfortunately, politics seems to produce throat-cutting personal animosity even among good friends, and we have definitely proven to be susceptible to this.  The discussions turned rapidly into arguments and then feuds, and this only fed the anger and reinforced the positionality.  It was a runaway condition, and a losing proposition.  In the end, the only thing that changed any minds was years of private and unruffled introspection, and individual and personal experiences.  Bottom line, it is better to let the sleeping dog of politics lie.

My real friends know I can be an idiot yet still like me. Most people who are human get to wear the dunce cap now and then.

Unless he was doing it before 1983, I think the "immitation" is misdirected.

As far as "cheap" goes, I don't recall anyone belching into microphone nor do I recall a single instance of profanity in the 5 years I ran the forum.

I will address a few of the other remarks here to save some bandwidth.

1.  Judging from the reaction on this list, excluding slop buckets would produce a forum of 3 on a good night.  Don't think we have that luxury.

2.  All the battles and wars alluded to seem akin to disliking a book one has not read.  No such war ever took place on ARF in 5 years.  What actually seems to happen is that like minds gravitate together like birds of a feather.  Little by little, a consensus develops and the group evolves into "ditto heads" of one sort or another.  This is actually the reason I got bored and gave it up.  It became a love fest.

3.  The biggest problem I see starting now is the miserable propagation and band conditions.  80 meters really stinks lately but I stuck my foot in so I will charge ahead and appreciate any support I can get.

4.  The rest of the comments that I would love to challenge would make good topics for the forum and serve no purpose arguing here.

5.  Thanks for listening Don but you were a week early. 

Jack New ARF Thurs 0300Z 3715 more or less

Is that one net still on that Vic ran, been so long i forget the name..it's political in content...

The P&M Net dates to the 70's. Please define the relationship between belching and profanity and cheap.

The cool thing about a net, group, gathering or whatever you wish to call it is that if you like what they are doing or talking about, you can listen or join in. If you don't, then you don't have to listen or join in.

So, good luck with your net Jack. Don't worry about those that don't like the idea of discussing politics. They don't need to participate. And I don't see how your group engaging in such discussions hurts them or the hobby (unless it turns into a hate fest). Even then, other than the supposed negative PR *, I don't see it as a problem.

* This assumes a large number of initiated non-hams or SWL would be listening and some how turned off to ham radio as a result, a dubious assumption IMO.

Ed, if you're going to drop irrelevant one-liners, could you try trimming down the quote? A little netiquette goes a long way.

Jack asked for opinions, Ed. I gave him one. Please don't tell me how to operate my station based on an opinion that was directly solicited (or anything else, for that matter).

Thank you.

If you're looking to alienate yourself or come off as elitist, you're doing a great job, Jack.

You did ask for opinions. Sorry the results weren't what you'd hoped for, but casting aspersions towards other AMers isn't going to change that outcome.

Sorta reinforces the point several of us have been trying to convey, you see.

By the way, that's "belching into the microphone". If you're going to criticize others' third-grade behavior, you might try to avoid employing second-grade grammatical errors to do so.

Food for thought. Good luck in the contest!

Unless I'm in  a QSO with a group of like-minded conservatives,  I avoid political discussions like the plague.  Too many contentious issues which invariably lead to animosities and bad feelings.

I am a Globaloney Warming Denier.  My good friend (and Best Man at my wedding),  Dave, VE2KDL,  is  a kool-aid drinking  Algore worshipping, GW true-believer.  We had a knock-down, drag out fight over the phone about this, and quickly realized that our 40-year plus friendship was at stake.  We agreed to politely disagree on this issue.   We now only talk about guns (as we're both shooters).

I have my firm opinions about politics, born of 30 years of political activism and observation.  Unless pressed, I generally keep it to myself. Too many ignoranuses around who know nothing of politics, yet feel the need to spew gibberish.   Nah... not for me.

FYI conservative in VE land is far different than the so called conservative here in the crooked USA. That is why Canada isn't $10T in the hole

I was simply defending myself against the accusation of offering a "cheap" imitation.

>By the way, that's "belching into the microphone". If you're going to criticize others' third-grade behavior, you might try to avoid employing second-grade grammatical errors to do so.

One might argue the difference between a typo and third grade behavior.

More interesting is that politics and religion have little to do with people getting unpleasant when they disagree on anything.

I thank all for the opinions, for or against and appreciate the opportunity to share my thoughts and intentions.

js

Politics and religion aren't requirements for people getting unpleasant when they disagree, but they sure do make great catalysts for it.

That was my (and several others') primary point, editorializing aside.

 Thom....Chill.  Who was telling you how to do anything? You didn't get my point. I don't listen to politics or religion either.  More of a suggestion. How bout those Celts?

So now VFOs are political? ???

My VFO is, it drifts to the right.  ;)

BASTA!

STUFF IT!

When in Sweden, it's to sit in a sauna.

All ham shacks should have one:

(http://www.global-b2b-network.com/direct/dbimage/50173285/Sauna_Hothouse_Space_Capsule.jpg)

See, here's the perfect example. People are starting to argue about 'talking about talking about politics.' ::)

Well do what ya think is right, if it Feels good do it... anybody trap anymore...how bout gunnsmithing, Naughty womens clothing.. :o snuck dat in der...how bout RC airplanes...helicopters...tryed that,, wow it Takes real Talent ....I just have a hard time because it's So depressing, we want one thing and they do the other...never makes sense to me...

I must accept some of the blame/credit (however you look at it) for this topic even coming up. I was intrigued by some of Jack's on the air comments and wanted to discuss them further. I generally take views quite contrary to Jack's and suggested it might be nice to replace some of the more benign QSO subject matter with some in depth discussion. 
I am not sure whether to laugh or cry at the responses to even discussing the issue.
Being somewhat naive, I thought that a variety of views could be discussed without hostility.
The core of the issue is whether ham radio is an appropriate medium for this type of communication. I suppose the internet is a better place, or a local pub, or the office, or at the dinner table.....
I will say this--no matter where your philosophy leads you, it is an inescapable fact that we are in a very difficult era in our nations history and it is no time to avoid collecting all the data you can to understand the ramifications of the choices we are making today.
My apologies for being so serious.
Flog me if you will.
Skip

I don't believe we're in an era that is any more difficult than many times in our nation's past. Collecting all the data you can to understand the ramifications of the choices we are making has ALWAYS been important. That said, I don't think holding a net to discuss politics is the optimum (or anywhere near it) way to collect data. But if Jack or anyone else wants to have a net for this purpose or anything else (to include discussing pasta), have at it. People can choose to participate or not. Pretty simple really.

Steve, I didn't say "PASTA"...

I said "BASTA"  which in Itial speak means ENOUGH ALL READY!!!

Well, things went about as well as expected for the first night.

We had 4 AM checkins and one SSB flyby and an interesting debate, punctuated by nothing worse than static crashes.

For those who can't or don't wish to participate on air, I put together a quickie blog at:

           http://k9act.blogspot.com/

I will move it to my domain when I figure out how to do that.

The topic and my editorial are there along with the usual comment area.

About the only thing we reached a concensus on was to move the net time up an hour, at least for the Summer.  So the time next week will  be 0200Z and 3715 seems to be a good nominal freq.

Thanks for all the support and hope to see/hear more next week.

js

Exactly, ;D

Steve,
I'll take a bag of what you are smoking

i got some pretty good dope. dont need no weed.  :-X

Yea, some people can't think without it. Oh well.