The AM Forum

In another thread, someone implied that maybe what you're hearing out West is terrible but we're pretty good back here in the East. And that you are. I've listened to many of you.

But gosh, we aren't so bad either. The unofficial King of West Coast Sound is Mike Dorrough, known to all of us as No Money for his call KO6NM. He has gently coaxed us to what I now think of as pretty respectable audio. The standard bearers of West Coast sound are first and foremost Mike himself but also many tall ship stations who have tried to sound as good as everyone does when they use Mike's station.  Since Mike isn't here to defend himself, I'll define WCS as simply natural. None of the knobs are turned to eleven. There is imperceptible compression and no over emphasis anywhere. If there is a difference between East Coast Sound and West Coast Sound I'd say it's in the low end. We roll it off more than you guys in the east. We like the highs. We just do. That's the way we are.

Here are some stations you might be able to hear back east that are representative of West Coast Sound. Listen for them on 75 and judge for yourself:  Mike, KO6NM, Brian, NI6Q, Dave WJ6W, Joe, N6DVD, Joe, W1GFH if he'd ever get on the air,  Ron, W6OM, George WA6HCX, and even my station, K6JEK, if someone else with a better voice is in front of the microphone.   If you still don't like it, then,  well shucks.

I don't think there's a grievance here. One person put forth an opinion and may have expected everyone to nod.

Among the responses, I don't see anything that maligns any category of people, by geography, type of transmitter or operating style.

No one defended individuals with technical shortcomings in their signal, and it's clearly a matter of opinion what flavor of audio satisfies a given person.

I remember some years ago there was a guy, John Staples, W6BM, who does not participate in any of these discussions these days, but was writing for Electric Radio about broadcast transmitters and improved audio for amateur transmitters.

In some of his writings, he presented a technically sustainable case for methods to lower distortion and to bring out a more natural sound, coming away from "space shuttle audio" that some amateur transmitters imparted.

But in the same article(s), he expressed a sentiment that I took as apologetic, or defensive about such methods, hewing to the discredited "spectrum conservation' line that was used as a weapon to promote SSB when the mode was struggling for acceptance.

He got quite belligerent in correspondence with me, a sort of how-dare-I-question-him thing that puzzles me to this day.

So, there are people out there, like him, who are of two minds -- they grasp and endorse the idea of improved audio, but then make excuses or find themselves unable for some philosophical reason to pursue it.

I mean, I don't particularly care if someone prefers pinched and narrow audio, but don't also preach to me that I should adopt that approach or endorse it as being "better" as an automatic assumption.

WEST Coast KW as the west coast was known for its strappers and a better handbook

Distortion: When what come out is not a replica of what goes in.

Audio processing is the science/art of deliberately distorting audio to achieve a desired effect.
There is no such thing as distortionless radio.

Like making chili, not everyone agrees on the 'best' recipe and not everyone is equally skilled as a cook. The idea is to try different things and learn. There is NO cookbook setting of the knobs that is correct! If one existed, then every radio station on the dial would sound equally good, which we know isn't the case.
 I will say that when Mike KO6NM says someone's audio sounds pretty good, it's something to be framed on the wall.

Both are largely myths. No one sounds or type of audio is used by enough stations on either coast to make such generalizations.

I've worked quite a few of the stations you listed Jon, and I liked the audio from all of them. I do recall WJ6W having more low end than others, but that could just be his voice.

The only real west coast sound I ever heard was the Bakersfield Sound.

No need to defend anything, Jon.   The beauty of ham radio (and indeed AM) is that you can pursue whatever aspect of it that piques your interest - audio, homebrewing, solid state, tubes, antenners, whatever.  The only bad thing is overmudulated and splattering signals, that cause trouble for others on the band.  So long as anyone isn't diminishing my fun, what can I possibly say against it?

West Coast sound?

The Beach Boys
CCR
Jefferson Airplane
Grateful Dead

East Coast Sound

Hendrix
Blues Project
The Band
Dylan


etc...

...what was the question?

 ;D ;D

                WBear2GCR

The Bakersfield Sound predates all those.

Gee, what about the Seattle Sound?  Surely it has some worth. ;)

Ellen - AF9J

Hendrix?   There's a museum in Seattle that has another name but might as well be called the Jimi Hendrix Memorial. He was a Seattle kid who had to go to England to get any respect. 

We should be careful here. We could start a thread that goes on and on naming rock bands.   I will tell one little story though. My wife of a zillion years was waiting at the butcher counter at the local Whole Paycheck when she overheard the young guys working the counter talking about how in awe they were of Hendrix. When it was her turn she said simply, I saw him in '69 at the Berkeley Community Theater. They were awestruck. They were talking to someone who actually saw Hendrix.   

And to think I never did see him. Saw the (long list) though.

The museum is called the Experience Music Project Museum (based upon the name of James Marshall Hendrix' group - The Jimi Hendrix Experience).

73,
Ellen - AF9J
Who also likes that other Seattle music (from the early 90s) 

I saw Hendrix live in Chicago a long, long, time ago.

The thing I remember most (LOL!!!) was the backsides of his wall of Marshall tube amps. He'd start wailing and those tubes would be strobing red along with the tunes.

Near the end, he poured lighter fluid on his guitar and torched it. I should have took the carcass home with me, Id be retired now thanks to Ebay.

Damn good show.

(http://www.rockabillyhall.com/HRcolorsraywide.gif)

I had to look it up.
VERY cool history.

You got that right Bill.  I think in the past year or two, one of his axes went for over $300K.  The reason - Hendrix guitars are rare on the ground, because he usually smashed them and/or torched them.  Zappa owned one of his Strats (given to him after Jimi torched it in Miami in 1969).  The Hard Rock Cafe owns his prized left handed Flying V.  Billy Gibbons of ZZ Top owns a pink Strat that Jimi gave him in 1967 or 68, when Billy's psychedelic band the Moving Sidewalks, was opening for Jimi's US tour (Jimi told Billy that the color pink wasn't conducive to burning or smashing, so he didn't want the guitar).  There are maybe 3 or 4 known other Hendrix guitars.  That's it.

73,
Ellen - AF9J

Electric Ladyland... NYC.  fwiw.

                _-_-WBear2GCR

Hi Jon,

Back in the early '70s, there was a cluster of AMers (including myself) who were running what was, at the time, very high fidelity audio.  The low end was pronounced as compared to most of the stations on the air, and the audio was clean.  At that time, it was rather an anomaly as compared to most stations on the air.  These stations were constantly being compared to WBZ and other broadcasters.  The term "Just like a broadcast station" was often heard.  This was because the good sounding stations really stood out.

Because of the clustering of these stations on the East coast - and in New England, in particular, combined with the high power (a full KW back then) , the "sound" was dubbed the East Coast Sound.  I clearly remember some of the W8 and W9 stations calling my audio the East Coast Audio.

What is really interesting - I have many high fidelity recordings of the stations from back in that time.  We sure sound better today, although at the time what we had was the best available.  Now, it's amazing how many stations sound good today.  We take it for granted now, but back then, most people had communications quality audio, and only the technically astute sounded good.

Now-> Fast forward 35 years, and the so-called East Coast Sound is really a United States Sound.  We just sound good, and it's all over the country - East, West, South, and North.  You don't often hear people comparing our sound to broadcast stations, because so many people sound so good, it's not unusual.  Now, it's the opposite.  If someone sounds bad, THAT'S what is pointed out.  Interesting shift , for sure!!!

Regards,

Steve

Jon, mea culpa for not being on the air for eons due to work issues, antenna issues, travel issues, you name it. Having spent significant time on both coasts, I must comment on the subject.

I think it is time to admit that the trophy goes to the the East Coast for popularizing the 75 meter "broadcast quality audio trend" simply by virtue of having so many AM stations experimenting with it in the early 70s and 80s; a trend which grew exponentially and shows no signs of abating. Call it the "E Coast Sound" if you wish, but it's a confusing term since high quality AM audio has spread to every part of the country.

But I have to add, there *are* separate East Coast and West Coast "sounds", and it has nothing to do with audio. It has everything do with content and operating styles.

East Coast AM (especially in the AM window around New England) can often sound like a raucous CB channel, lots of sex, drugs, and rock and roll; fast break-in, hooting, burping, and spurious comments inserted by 3rd parties during transmissions using the "zero beat the other fellows carrier" method. And "personalities" galore! (It goes without saying that the AM stylings of WA1HLR had a lot to do with this evolution). East Coast AM is sometimes rude and crude but always fun.

By contrast, the West Coast is a blast from the past; strict rotations in roundtables, calmly-delivered buzzardly musings on technical subjects sprinkled with "hi hi fine business old man" manners.

One night while tuned to 3870 I was witness to a roundtable of four "tall ship" AM stations whose entire QSO consisted of exchanging compliments with each other! They extemporized for at least a half hour each on how wonderful the AM hobby is and how nice it was to gather on the air together with such good friends. And they were quite sincere.

No swearing. The word "ass" is never used, and I have never heard the f-bomb. Or even the word "damn", come to think of it. The FCC regs of the Newton Minow era are still in effect in this time warp.  And if you listen hard enough, you can almost picture the ops wearing bow ties.

There are a dozen or so tall ships, but also a fair representation of "D 104 audio" and 100 watt carriers. Ops with "telephone audio" will sometimes be told "your audio sounds restricted" but most often they are given a "good communications quality audio" report with no sneer attached. It's a fairly liberal (original meaning, not political meaning) attitude that accepts every kind of signal into the QSO.

I ascribe this open-arms-policy to the "frontier" atmosphere of the West Coast AM window. Surrounded by savages, we hardy few band together, lest we (the AM minority) be run off our reservation.

Anyway, this is how it was when I was on the air A LOT, and the current state of affairs may be different.

The hi-fi sounds on the east coast started well before the early 70's.

Bill, W3DUQ is still on the air with hi-fi audio. Listen for him on 3733 kHz.


QSL from 1957, TNX to Ken, W2DTC.

Wow ... coast to coast on the AM Forum.

But here in flyover country we have the Chicago Blues !!!

Yup...... "Sweet Home Chicago" !!!

their gonna put me in the movies;
their gonna make a big star out of me;
They'll make a movie bout a man whose sad and lonely;
and all I gotta do, is act naturally.

RIP Buck.  :'(

(http://www.pulsetc.com/hottickets/Buck-Owens.jpg)


Oh yeah - how about everyone runs their station the way they like? I'm not telling the digital folks their too narrow, or the SSTV guys they all should be in color.

unless its satire or for funnies, everyone just mind your own business and do what you wanna do. I come back on and I hear the EXACT same rap i heard 5 yrs ago, even though the fone band been vastly expanded and entire band sections are like ghost towns.  It's like nothing ever happened.  :P ::)

Wow, noticing the QSL card is from 50 years ago, and "Uncle Willie" was only 17 ...

I had the distinct pleasure of working Mike Dorrough and several other left-coasters last February, late at night on the edge of the AM ghetto (3870). They had wonderfully clean, full audio and we carried on for the better part of two hours. My main intent was to make the contact and get out of the way, not interfere with their roundtable. But they insisted I stick around, and we had a wonderful exchange.

Joe has highlighted some of the differences in operating styles and perhaps that's the extent of it. There are pros and cons associated with both. What it all comes down to is love and enjoyment of the mode, the equipment, the techniques associated with AM. What's to defend?  And why?  :)


Never cared for the Grunge/stoner Seattle sound. Liked the Shoegaze/Britpop sound of the time a lot more. The Catherine Wheel, Blur, The Verve, etc. Rob Dickinson's vocals are more listenable to me than Kurt Kobain's, purely personal preference. Nirvana enjoy far more commercial success than the Catherine Wheel, though.

Three, three, three threads in one. I'll try to keep my comments brief. First you see that D104 in Joe, W1GFH's post? That's a ruse. I've never heard him using a D104. He probably had to borrow it. Second Bakersfield sound. Every time I drive through Bakersfield -- once or twice a year I make a point of playing some Buck Owens. It's the least I can do to show a little respect. There's an IN-N-OUT burger there too -- good place to stop. Third, flaming guitars. Like everyone else my age, I was in a rock band. We're not talking talent here, just enthusiasm. Well the rhythm guitarist in the band went to a Who concert and caught the Tune-o-matic bridge that flew off Pete Townshend's guitar. He gave it to me. It was a prized possession. It had provenance. But I lent it a friend of mine to try on his Gibson SG and he sold the guitar with the bridge on it. I'm still mad at him thirty years later.  Finally, East Coast Sound. I think Steve's right. The East Coast guys led the way towards better audio so maybe we should just use the term to mean good audio. Wait, that's four, isn't it?

Jon, you got hold of Pete Townsends guitar bridge - then LENT IT OUT? What a dam fool kid thing to do. What's next? Are you going to give away your Woodstock ticket stubs? Throw out the Viking Ranger that Bob Heil pronounced The Best Sounding In America (or something equally lofty)? Speaking of Bakersfield Sound, don't forget the "Boston Sound" (or "Bosstown  Sound") with bands like Ultimate Spinach, J Geils, Orpheus, Beacon Street Union, etc. that never quite got off the ground in 1968.

I agree, in general, with Joe's observations. But, I would estimate the above statement applies to only about 10% of the east coast QSOs. Most are fairly straight up, courteous and friendly. More than a few are roundtables replete with old buzzard transmissions. When some of the east coast crew does let their hair down, it can be raucous. But the notice it gets seems out of proportion with the number of times it actually occurs.

What's to like about I hate myself, baby killer music? :P

Seattle? I thought he started out as an unknown little black kid from Alabama.  He was once in the army and stationed about 8 miles from here.  Of course, I had never heard of him then.


He did the best instrumental version of the national anthem, ever.

Nice try Pete!  ;D

73,
Ellen - AF9J
Who says read the lyrics, it's not all like that

and there's always.."that little o'le band from Texas"....

Yep, Jimi was born in Seattle, and grew up there. He also played guitar in Little Richard's band, and the Isley Brothers in the early and mid 60s. There is also an unusual connection between Les Paul and Jimi Hendrix.  Les Paul used to like the tell the story about how back in 1964, he ran into Hendrix, before he was famous. Accroding to Les, him and one of his sons made a brief stop (after running errands) at a club in New Jersey (around the time Jimi was forming his pre-Experience group Jimmy James and the Blue Flames).  Les was feeling lazy, and rather than spending time going into the club, just to find out the band might suck, he sent his son in to take a look.  His son came back to the car and told him that he needed to see him play for himself - he said the guy was playing guitar like a madman.  Les went in, and saw Jimi auditioning to do some gigs for the club, and was blown away.  But Les had to finish running errands, so he had to leave.  But, he went back to the club afterwords to talk with Jimi, and possibly see what he could do to help with Jimi's career.   Unfortunately, Jimi was gone.   Les inqured about him, and found out that the club ownder had stopped the audition (the owner said he was too loud), and nobody knew they guy's (Jimi's) name.  So, it wasn't until Jimi became famous, the Les Paul found out who the auditioner was.  He got a chance one time to speak with Jimi, and related the abovew story to him. Jimi laughed, and said (that) to think he was "that" close possibly making it at that time.

Other Hendrix factoids:

1.   Accomplised blues guitarist Mike Bloomfield, & Hendrix were good friends.  Bloomfield, met Hendrix after Jimi did a gig in 1965 in a Greenwhich Village club. At the time Bloomfield (who was the guitarist on the Bob Dylan song "Like a Rolling Stone"), thought he was THE hot guitarist, until he saw Hendrix (who saw Bloomfield in the audience, and knew who he was) humble him using nothing more than a Strat, a Fender Twin amp, a Maestro fuzz tone, and tons of volume.

2.  Stephen Stills (of Crosby,Stills & Nash,and Buffalo Springfield fame) was another good friend of Jimi's.  They both knew each other from before the time Jimi was famous.   Jimi wanted Stills to join the Jimi Hendrix Experience as the bass player.  Stills would have too, but his manager dissuaded him from doing so, since it would have hurt his career with The Buffalo Springfield (which was starting to take off).  As it was, Jimi did have a pretty big effect on Stepehn Stills' guitar style, which went from being this sort of generic folksy and rootsy style, to a more rock oriented style.

3.  The Jimi Hendrix Experinience's first US tour was in 1967.  The group they toured with - The Monkees!  It was mess.  The Monkees main audience of teeny boppers had a hard time dealing with Jimi's music.  So the Jimi Hendrix Experience dropped out of the tour after only a few weeks.

73,
Ellen - AF9J
Stating there is life after Buck Owens and Merle Haggard (the kings of the Bakersfield Sound)

Absoulutely!  There were some spot good audio operators back then, and once it reached a critical mass here in the East, the term East Coast Sound was born  8)  What's interesting is to listen to the old recordings.  We thought it sounded good back then, but still nothing like what we have today with large diaphram condenser mics, better audio processing and transformerless transmitters ;)

Regards,

Steve

In the mid to late sixties, I was listening to Bill, and others (W3PHL, W3YAM, etc.,) on 75.  I was struck by the high quality audio (and lots of audio from PHL!).  That's what turned me on to AM!

Also, in the sixties, Montreal was part of the tour circuit for major rock bands. Saw Hendrix, Grateful Dead, Airplane, Doors, Janis, and many others.   (I love being a Baby Boomer!  ;D )

I'll take Danny Gatton over any of those over-hyped commercialized guitar heros.

You're a country twanger & roots twanger, aren't you Steve? ;)  Living where you are, you must have seen the amazing Danny Gatton before he died.  That must have been something seeing him rip on his Tele.

73,
Ellen - AF9J
Quote of the day - don't overplay; play for the song

"He did the best instrumental version of the national anthem, ever."

Hey Don,
 
Did you hear that, perchance, on a wet Monday morning in 1969??

Art

I remember a night about this time 40 years ago when a couple of us stopped by a friends house to check out some new music our buddy Bob just bought. Hendrix and Cream..........my hair got longer after that......so needed a head band to spank second gear and still see where I was going.

Howdy Howdy,

 As far as Hendrix I always liked Machine Gun..alot of emotion in that, i never liked when he went to the flying wing, bad sustain on that guitar..not very clear...

Flying Wings are a bit more electric sounding than Strats Jack.  For having humbuckers, they are pretty trebly sounding.  It's hard to believe, but Gibson first sold them (along with the Explorer) in 1958!  Originals are very rare (they didn't sell well - everybody thought they looked stupid), and worth as much as $100,000.

73,
Ellen - AF9J

Well, that and a whole lot more and different stuff too. But, yes living in the Baltimore/Washington Metroplex, I was lucky to see/hear a lots of good musicians. Gatton was a trip. But so was John Duffy on the mando, and Tony Rice flattop and Del McCoury singing and .......

Places like the Cellar Door, the Red Fox Inn, Bayou, 9:30 Club and the Birchmere were just a few of the spots.

Didn't see many most of these but DC has a rich musical history. Here's just a few of those who were born and/or played in the area.

John Fahey
Marvin Gaye
Roy Clark
Duke Ellington
Jorma Kaukonen
Toni Braxton
Jack Casady
Peter Torkelson
Mary Chapin Carpenter
Charlie Byrd
Roy Buchanan
Emmylou Harris
Joan Jett
Nils Lofgren
Billie Holiday
Frank Zappa

Oh man!,

That is a good list of musicians from your neck of the woods.

73,
Ellen - AF9J

..ellen...glad you mentioned the monkees/hendrix tour..poor jimi could'nt match peter tork, and mike nesmith on guitar...he had to quit, not being as good.....sk..

nothing man...isn't it something....

 and one got lost in Omaha...could of been something..

   but nothing man....

Well you know Tim......

"Daydream Believer" (with the "awesome" Davy Jones singing) - how can you compete with somebody who can pull off the chops busting ability that song requires. LOL!!  Actually Hendrix was very open minded musically.  When he was in town for a show,he would often go out to see local acts play.  Even when they were bad, he would hang around, and listen to them play. When asked why he would stay to watch a terrible band play - his response was:  "everybody has something to say (musically)."

With regards to the Monkees - I read years ago in one of my guitar mags (I think it was "Guitar World"), an excerpt from the book Mitch Mitchell (the drummer in Jimi's band), wrote about his time in the Jimi Hendrix Experience.  The excerpt talked about the 1967 tour with the Monkees.  According to Mitch,  The Experience actually got along pretty well with the Monkees. Peter Tork, Mike Nesmith, and Micky Dolenz actually had some talent (albeit in a limited way).  The one person they couldn't stand (Mitch said he was a little talentless twit), was Davey Jones, who acted like a primma donna.  BTW, Davey Jones is the Reason why David Bowie exists.  David Bowie's original name is David Jones (he even had a band way back when, that was called "Davy Jones and His Lockers [after the old pirate phrase]).  He changed his last name to Bowie, to distance himself from Davey Jones.   

Bowie had a very good and underrated guitarist during his Ziggy Stardust period - Mick Ronson.  He's been dead for a few years (he died of pancreatic cancer within the past 10 years or so).   That's too bad.  He was considered to be a very humble individual, who not only played guitar, but did music arranging.  When John Mellencamp was tight for money during the sessions that recorded the hit song "Jack and Diane", Mick not only helped with the producing, but played some of the guitar parts in the sessions - all for around a $200 fee.   Normally people charge thousands for what he did.

73,
Ellen - AF9J

Isn't this thread where we talk about Rock and Roll?

The Led Zepplin re-union got rave reviews.   Wouldn't it have been great to be there?  I saw them on the tour following the release of their first album at the Fillmore (or was it Winterland) in SF.   Damn they were loud.   

Here's the NY Times review
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/10/arts/music/11zeppelin.html?em&ex=1197522000&en=6718f43e7b7cc02d&ei=5087%0A

Loudest band I ever saw - Anthrax.  It was 1987, and I'd just graduated college.  I saw tham at a place that no longer exists in Madison,WI called "Headliners", that occasionally had up and coming national acts playing at it. Metal Church opened - they were pretty good.  Anthrax came on, and they were so loud, my ears went into overload - it was a big wash of noise.  I couldn't even distinguish the music notes, and could barely even hear the singing. I ended up leaving after 4 songs - it was that ridiculously loud.    My ears didn't stop ringing for 3 days!  No thanks.  I've been known to play pretty loud, but that was way beyond overkill.

73,
Ellen - AF9J
P.S. - my Uncle Joe lost over half of his hearing from playing too loud when he was younger.  So, I try to protect my hearing.  As result of doing this I have passed any hearing tests I have had to take.

Bands you saw when you were younger will always be louder. That's because you've destroyed your hearing then, so everything seems less loud now. :'(

Just gimme some of that Red Neck Jazz!

Lightnin Hopkins....Playing a gut string guitar with a mic jammed in the sound hole .....stompin his foot on the wooden stage floor for the bass beat...you could hear him just fine....  Hound Dog Taylor...Playing cheap electrics and driving Sears 6L6 Guitar amps into distortion.......2  guys trying to sound like a 5 pc band.....Those sounds still blow me away........The Blues ain't nothin but a good man feelin bad.....

I saw the new Eagles album at WalMart a week ago and the asking price was $9 versus $14 for most CDs.  The cover is thin cardboard rather than a plastic jewel case - an admirable green thing?