The AM Forum

Does anyone on here know anything about the Cubic CDR-3280 receiver?


Mack

My only DSP radio is a TCI/BR 8174 with 6 KHz the widest filter. Looks like a cubic designer did it. Again the S meter is very accurate. 3 conversions down to 5 KHz into an A/D / DSP it works pretty well but could use a better roofing filter in the first IF. Same set up as Harris/Racal Cubic 40.455 MHz to 455 KHz so many filter possibilities. It is in a 1U rack computer controlled. It would make a nice spectrum scanner with a lab view program. You can get at the low IF but not I/Q because it is generated in the DSP. My model does not have that option that takes a second DSP (that would be a cool radio as it also does the spectrum monitor)
As far as AM is concerned I2PHD seems a bit better than stock RA6830 sync detector under poor conditions. Flex is a distant third. I've spent many hours monitoring both in parallel and was very surprised with the Flex. I bet it is due to bill ware bloat. I also noticed somehing interesting with the boston buzzie on 160 last night. It pumps the noise floor of the flex and it takes a while to recover. I need to study this more to see if it was due to AGC release time. This also seems to happen when there is a lot of static.
I suggest good reading on Sherwood's site on DSP demodulation. He is a good guy I've had a number of emails with him over the years. I trust his test numbers.
Notice he has no data posted on either Flex. I know he has played with both of them.
I contacted the Flex software guys on my AM findings. They are very sharp but don't seem real interested in AM since most of their business is the I gotta have the latest rice box at the highest price gang. They are milking that like the afternoon cow. It is actually fun to watch. SDR1K is like a bugger stuck to their finger now.

I thought the 3280 had an I/Q output but maybe it is an option. Cubic makes some class stuff but Data is hard to come by. The 3500 series VHF/UHF stuff is beautiful but try and get schematics. A friend hit a dead end with Cubic. This new stuff might be easier but I bet you pay. If it belongs to uncle sam you might not be able to buy docs. I just completed a new R2307 chassis last week with all the right module numbers. It took 3 or 4 years to locate all the right part numbers.

Mack,
I started with an fT1000 AM demodulator and a Motorola DSP EVM module. Pete WA1SOV gave me some code and I hacked it to work. I was hooked after that. I know exactly your thought process because I've been there but I am also open to new things as long as they really work. SDR is getting better as we speak. I again suggest you invest about $15 in a softrock 6 kit and hang it off you 455 KHz IF and start to play. This is where I am but I homebrewed my I/Q converter to plug in as a module into my RA6830 for the same function. I duplicated the double balanced Tayloe and used the INA163 amps Flex used. I was lucky as a guy who bought an RX from me on the West coast made the PC boards and paid for the parts. I did the design, build and test.
Later I joined the HPSDR gang and bought the first modules that are superior to any sound card out there. The noise floor is so low you need special shielded cables to take full advantage of the dynamic range.
The smart guys there are getting ready to release a perselector driving an A/D sampling at 130 MHz or 170 MHz. Also a D/A making RF. 2 Tone IMD at -50 dB check out the HPSDR site.  We will see the real performance later but it has been interesting to follow these sharp guys. I usually ask stupid questions but try to shut up shutting up so as not to show my stupidity.
So far I agree the with you on hanging the SDR off a low IF but the dynamic range is limited by roofing filter performance and synthesizer phase noise.
 

All the 8174s came from the same place and all have a max bandwidth of 6 KHz. They work pretty well. I have the program and manual if you decide to buy it. Fun little radio. I would love to write a program to monitor HF spectrum real time. I paid $650 for mine. A number of guys wanted a second one after getting one of them.
DSP you are stuck with the software provided with the box. SDR software can be changed on the fly. Both use DSP functions for demodulation.
Too bad the 8174s didn't come with the second DSP installed.
This would also make a nice front end for a softrock.

Future: Preselector directly into a real fast A/D for RX and D/A making RF with an output filter. Dats crankin if it really works.

Where do you order the SoftRock 6? I have only been finding references to the 'sold out' SoftRock 4 and the 'upcoming' SoftRock 5 on the AMQRP website.

David Goncalves
W1EUJ

Contact Tony, Softrock 4 and 5 are long gone. Join the yahoo gang and just ask where to buy a softrock and Tony will respond within a day or so. The web site was never updated but the board has activity every day. There are piles of guys using his stuff. Price is cheap and quality is high. The only thing you have to be careful with is the through hole resistors. Measure each one because the color contrast isn't great even under a microscope. 

Wow 3150/4150 quite a machine. BTW 4150 manual is on cubic site....makes you even feel better doesn't it.
Any sound card will handle SDR functions. Some just better than others.
8174 I would not use the 5 KHz. 5 KHz would limit maximum AB bandwidth to about 9.8 KHz. It isn't I/Q so that is aproblem. I/Q is generated in the 8184 DSP as a math function and the basic radio like that model does not have it as an output. I would tap off the 455 KHz IF and interface a soft rock 6. I have one almost done for that purpose. All I need to do is break the seal on the radio and install a cable to bring 455 KHz out.
I'm one module shy of completing a new Cubic R2307 chassis and really want to get it done. Finally have all the right part numbers. Just need to get 1 more power supply module going. Yea it is analog but a brute.

Just checked the TCI. It has the extra BNC on the back my unit has a blunder button. I have more data as you see there are no schematics. I think I have all of the schematics. Looks like it came from the same batch as mine. BTW I located the control program and distributed it to the seller and all the guys who bought them. I found a TCI Rep who gave it to us.

The problem at first was the guy selling them had a funky control program. I never got it to work right. Install the one on ebay and chech it out. All you need is serial interface. I used RS232 but I think it also has RS422 and check it out pretty simple and easy to use. The radio configured as a dual DSP machine is pretty cool with a spectrum display. I tried to get some TCI hardware but they were out of production on that model. It was built in the '90s. One of the guys who does control software modified his code to control this unit. I forgot the guy but when a few dozen units hit the street a couple years ago there was a demand. The seller told me he was working on a contracting job and got the receivers as payment. He sold most of them.  Nice design but could use a better roofing filter. I have a nice WJ filter I may drop in my unit someday. The second IF has a 6 or 15 KHz 455 KHz filter. the 5 KHz if has RC filters. Then the DSP does the heavy lifting and demodulation.

ok you will be receiving some email

OK Mack I just sent you everything I had on a CD. Let me know if there is anything missing.  GN

I stayed up late to send it rather than make you wait a day. Yup a lot of data. the program may barf without a radio connected. Yes just dump the MS file and control program in a folder and it should run fine.
This model does not have tuning below HF. The preselector has to change and I think a different software version. I don't remember if mine tunes below HF. The S meter is very accurate. I checked it against the HP8640B. have fun 

I have followed your high end Rx conversations for awhile and one thought caught may attention (paraphrased):
"Use a good quality analog Rx and send the 455 (or 40 Mhz,) out put to a DSP or SDR"
This has been rattling around in my hollow state consciousness for some time and I would like some advice on how to implement it.
My main Rx are WJ 8716/18 and R-390 & 390A. The AGC on the WJ is annoying but it is otherwise quiet & solid. The 390 series is OK but dated. Both of these Rx series are adequate for my use but I would like to put their bulletproof front ends in front of a "smoke & mirrors" computer radio. Like you guys, I do not lust after the latest bells and whistles--I just want to hear, and do it well. I considered something as simple as purchasing one the the SDR packages and feeding the IF into it. Is is that simple?
Tell me how to go about this.

Isn't the Collins HF-2050 a DSP radio? My manuals are all packed away so not sure what it has for outputs.  Would this RX be usable for what we are playing with here?

Paul

The TCI 8174 is basically what you are talking about but you can't modify the software. I was in the same boat a year ago when I homebrewed a I/Q converter. The Softrock 4s were sold out so had to roll my own and it cost a lot more. Get yourself a soft rock 6 order it for a 455 KHz IF. The OP amp gain will be a bit high so you just need to reduce 2 resistor values or put a step attenuator ahead of the module. I also changed the design of the input transformer making it better suited for 455KHz. Then you just download free flex software or I2PHD or Rocky. For a $15 investment and about 4 hours work you have SDR demodulation to learn how it works. The coolest part is the spectrum display. You will never go back to a sweep type spectrum monitor after using an FFT spectrum display. The output of softrock goes into the line in of your sound card. Then you just have to get the levels right so you don't over drive the sound card. Then you can run SDR demodulation in parallel with any stock radio and compare performance. You get used to the processing delay after a while. The better the sound card the greater the dynamic range. You just have to look at the levels coming out of the rX you want to use. The 6730 is at -13 dBM and i'm sure the 6790 is about the same level. This is way too high for the softrock 6. Solution build a pad or put a step attenuator between them. The softrock noise floor is almost the  same as the receiver so there will be too much gain. My stock Dell sound card had a noise floor around -120 dBM so at -13 and a bunch of gain in the softrock you quickly saturate the sound card. I found the op amps want to be set at X6 to X10 gain when operating as an IF demodulator and you still need to knock the input down. A 3 resistor pad will handle that. Say with no signal you have -50 dBM coming out of the radio then you will need about 50 dB of attenuation to get the lavels for maximum dynamic range of SDR. This takes a bit of cut and try but no worse than setting audio levels right because I and q are audio if you think about it. The sound card doesn't like much above 0 dB audio so X10 opamps do the math. The sound card is usually the first thing to saturate and it makes a pile of distortion on the display. It is best to build the board and throw it on a signal generator with AM modulation so you can see the effects of level changes at the noise floor and saturation point. You have to shift the operating dynamic range of the softrock up to handle the RX output level while staying below the saturation point of the sound card. Again giving you the best dynamic range in the SDR section. I can easily see hum on a signal at 1 % modulation with my set up.
  

yes the 2050 is early DSP I don't remember the IF. fc

I went to Softrock 40 website and it is not immediately apparent where/what to order.
Perhaps you could E-mail some links to to assist me on this.

k7yoo@yahoo.com

tnx
Skip

Just realized something, when I operate AM I always have to shut off my computer because of EMI/RFI interference from the computer gettig into the radio.

What have you guys done to alleviate this? It may be the switcher or maybe the processor??

Thanks

Paul

I don't have any RFI issues with my computer. My 160 meter antenna goes over the house. How about some beads on the power leads.
It could be your power supply or it could even be the monitor.
I'm using a Dell Demension 220 1 Ghz machine in the shack and an old 17 inch monitor. I didn't do anything special.
Check the quality of your RX coax.

It is very doable. and cheap if you have a computer. It doesn't take a wizz bang machine to get started either. If I was going to use a 6790 as a front end I would go to an unused filter position. There is a series 4.7 K resistor feeding the input of the filter. I would add a 47 or 51 ohm resistor to ground then connect some small coax across the new resistor to drive the softrock. This will give a wide band input of the first IF roofing filters usually around 20 KHz. Also the level would be a lot lower. You don't need all that gain anyway. Then the RX would operate as normal and the sdr will get a good signal. I did this in my 6830 before I built a dedicated chassis with DF hardware. The DF hardware has no AGC but has higher dynamic range than stock Racal hardware. The Fixed gain allows me to calibrate the Flex S meter. The 6790 AGC will introduce S meter error in the Flex above anout -83 dBM signal input because this is the point where the first IF agc kicks in reducing the level to the IF filters. You can get around this by running in manual agc mode but the second mixer could overload on a strong signal.This is something you will have to play with. Another option is build a HD second mixer and pick off a little first IF and 40 MHz for the LO. There were a few 6790 DF units made but very rare. I'm actually using a very rare second mixer form a RA6840 modified to work in the 6830. It has a dynamic range higher than the first roofing filter.
Go for it the spectrum display makes it worth it. Heck you can even measure RX phase noise real time with the flex software if you have a good sound card. If you just use the 455 khz output on the back your output will be the bandwidth selected and the level will be held to a fixed point by the whole RC agc loop. Still it is very usable to get you started.

about a year ago I decided to roll my own converter and see for myself.
Just a year later Soft Rock Tony has provided a high quality kit that doesn't cost an arm and leg to get into SDR. he has been pumping them out since spring. This is a great investment if for only the spectrum monitor.
A crystal Local Oscillator Tayloe converter has phase noise performance better than anything in my shack including the HP8640Bs. This allows me to measure performance I only guessed about. Heck it is the first tool that I have that lets me null the  analog compensation of the racal fractional N synthesizer real time while looking at a good chunk of spectrum.
Flex software is configured to interface to the softrock so every function works except wide band tuning which the RX takes care of.
I think the Key to a good SDR system is the bandwidth going into it based on everything I have measured and seen......HMMM wasn't this the same problem back in TRF radio days. So you need a good preselector or an sdr dynamic range about 20 db than us nonmil people can afford or even buy. Flex has neither yet. HPSDR mercury looks interesting and I have a couple high performance preselectors so that is what I'm waiting for.
 

I've had a number of emails with Rohde. He is a cool guy and quite helpful.
BTW check out the latest R&S SDR ....no you can't afford it if you hang with us losers.

Frank:

Thanks for all the discussion here.

Does the SoftRock6 come with a 455kc input? I see all ham band input stuff on their web site.

Not that I have a PC with USB 2!

Thanks,
Dan
W1DAN

You have to special order it, but you can get one with a 455 kc input. I have one awaiting assembly (yea, I'm lazy and scroteless). If you plan to hook it up to an older receiver, you must order a 455 kc input. If you plan to use it with a newer receiver, you must order a 455 kHz input.

many of the guys who bought one  were wanting a second one. I'm surprised it lasted as long as it did. You will learn more with a softrock.

Yep, not far from being just another video game.

LOL. I've always found it amusing the apparent aversion some have to using the term Hertz, but regularly use Volt and Amp(ere).

It's just a cycle you are going through Mack

Mack, You don't need to go crazy to get started invest $15 on a softrock and use your stock sound card. FPGA is a logic array that you can program to do a function. Think of it as a board full of logic chips that you program rather than wire wrap the logic.
The flex guys will move on to the real cash cow the USG after they get the hams to work out all their bugs for them. They keep a close eye on HPSDR for ideas to mine. HPSDR is where the real brains hang out. I'm impressed by some of the guys who do hardware and software equally well.

Mack,
I used a color burst crystal in my set up and it gives me a 7.625 KHz IF low side convert. (divided by 8) I'm thinking of using my old Novice crystal 3.725.
I also changed the input transformer design to a two hole type 77 bead. Tony uses a low perm core with lots of turns which adds a lot of leakage inductance.
I have the part number at work. I can help you with the transformer if it is a problem. Look back through the old postings on the BB. A number of guys are using these boards as IF converters.

You want a bit of an offset because there is a pile of noise at zero IF. The DSP can handle the offset as long as it isn't too far away. Flex uses 11 khz in the SDR1K and I think 10 KHz in the new one. I got a copy of SDR1K schematics. Not much hardware for $1300. There is a bit more in the 5K. They put the sound card function in the box. I suspect a bit of HPSDR copy there but used fire wire to move data since it is faster than usb2. External sound card made their phone ring off the hook with interface problems with users. They actually started a BB to address issues. Must have made them crazy.
My set up is 7.625 KHz and it allows me to run up to about 14.5 KHz BW. I may change to my old novice crystal in the future to move it further away.
I'm sure Flex would love a nice fat contract from the USG. I still think they need a better preselector based on my testing. I could imagine it on a ship full of RF emitters saturating it. Heck the boston buzzie does a good job on the software.

Hi Mack,

Well at least you have heard from Tony. I haven't heard a thing from him or anyone else on where/how to order. Could you please send me his contact info?

I want to get something here by Christmas. I should have some colorburst xstals around here.  3.5759XXX right?

Cheers

Paul

That the crystal i used. I also changed the input transformer design for better operation at 455 KHz. I also changed the input transformer to three turns #30 trifilar on a Fair-Rite 2873002402 2 hole core. I would get the 160 meter kit and modify it. The stock transformer has lower perm material and lots of turns of wire. This could effect phase shift when looking for best performance. fc

The filters seem ok in the flex software but dealing with high noise another issue. Gates bloat wear is the big issue. I2PHD is a c program and works with noise better. 

How does the fact that it's a C program affect its ability to deal with noise? It still has to run on some operating system. What is it?

Yes but it doesn't need 60 meg of gates bloat code to run like Flex does.

OK. So my question still remains.



So are you claiming Windows creates noise? Or just that it slows down processing/processes that deal with noise? How does I2PHD get around either or both of these if it is running on Windows?

Using less RAM does not address noise issues.

No windows does not create noise flex software does not handle it as well as I2phd program.

Then that's a problem with the Flex application, not the OS it's running on (in this case Windows).

Yes, When you download Flex software the first thing you have to do is go to MS and download another 60 meg of bloat to get it running. With all that bloat you need a hot rod computer to keep up with all the ones and zeros going by after each input sample.

Given all that, how does I2PHD deal with noise in ways the Flex doesn't. In other words, if I have a hot rod computer, will I still see less performance with Flex as compared to I2PHD?

If you are just messing with the soft rock (which is what I was planning to do) you can DL the Flex software at no charge. That's why I'm trying to get some info on whether it's worth my while or not.

I agree, Window out of the box runs a ton of stuff most people don't need. Some even negatively impacts security. That said, judicious use of control panels (e.g. turn off some of the GUI "eye candy"), and msconfig to shut off unneeded services and control what happens at boot, and you can improve the performance of any Windows machine. There's lots of good guidance at site like Tech Republic, Black Viper, TweakXP.com and Windows Annoyances. Only you can decide if it's worth the effort though.

I use a system at work that runs under Windows on a laptop. It is required to do much "heavy lifting" as well as control some hardware. Almost all the services are turned off on Windows on this system. I should ask the developer sometime how much difference this makes.


I completely agree. I wonder if they could have done their SW dev so that they could also have released Linux/Unix versions. My guess is they would have gotten for more open source input this way.


That's why I use a Unix machine. ;)

Thread hijack warning!!!!

Can you imagine how an IBM PC would run Windoze 1 on todays 3GHz machines....oh boy.

If you were to compare the computer industry (Steve Jobs vs Bill (I wanna kickhiminthenuts Gates) to the auto industry, it would be like FORD saying, well our engines are going to be 2 times more powerful, so we are going to need twice as much octane. Chevron, can you make twice as much octane? Oh yes, we can, but it will cost twice as much. Oh, no problem. The price of FORD steel is dropping and we can drop our prices....if we sell enough of them, and need enough high octane fuel, can you drop your prices too?  Oh sure. What is your next engine going to look like? Will it need higher octane fuel? We should start developing a new fuel to meet your requirements. Yes, please do. It will need at least 2 times more octane. Oh, and BTW, our old engines don't seem to run on your new fuel. Seems it causes pre-ignition and our engines keep crashing. Can you add something to make the old engines work again........SORRY....BUY A NEW ENGINE....  (hey Steve, here's your $50M kickback for this year..thanks Bill.......keep 'em beggin for more)

Ohhhhh..again..sorry, soapbax mode off..

Paul

Guys the Flex spectrum display rocks it is very accurate. The S meter tracks an HP8640D attenuator. It is well worth doing. I have observed I2phd software doing a better job than the stock Racal sync detector when conditions are poor. When I got the HPSDR interface I was forced to change over to Flex Software. One night under poor conditions Audio was coming out of the same Racal RX while nothing was coming out of the SDR set up. I was very surprised and reported my findings to Alberto. All he told me was he was not impressed with Flex Software. My Motorola KISS converter with a  few lines of simple code provided by WA1SOV and hacked by be is still the best but it was a real pain to change operating conditions because you had to reload the program. No GUI. The more crap you have to wade through between samples the faster you need to go. bits is bits.
But as i said the spectrum display rocks even with a stock sound card.. 

While Flex isn't playing up AM in their marketing, they have been working with several AMers, including Bill, W3DUQ. Improvements in both the transmit and receive sides for AM have been made. And the Flex software does include synchronous detection for AM. Bill/DUQ seems quite happy with it and he's been using sync detectors since he built one back in the 60's. You may want to talk to him.


Indeed. In a perfect world, you would chop up the spectrum of both sidebands and select segments from each based on which yields the best SNR. Bacon, WA3WDR conceptualized and/or built something like this many years ago. Seems like a very cool idea to me.



I've found that too. I wanted to buy a low priced unit dedicated to the SDR stuff. The problem with these low priced unit is that the sound card is integrated on the motherboard. It's hard to determine the capability of these type of sound cards and how well they would work for SDR. Anyone have any experience?



Probably true but still a rather meaningless number on HF. What is important is SNR.

Flex has a wide capture range while I2PHD is quite small. Neither one is perfect. I would think the capture range could be modified to small range after a lock is established producing the cleanest audio. I2PHD sounds cleaner.
A stock sound card will give you a noise floor around -125 DBM well suited for a IF converter and low hf band operation. HPSDR is better than -140 dBM at 500 Hz. if you set it up properly. I'm running around -130 dBM due to long poor audio cables between RX and HPSDR set up.
I can't open ity up till I clean up my set up.
A stock card sound card is very usable as an IF converter. You need at least a 1 GHz machine with 512 meg of ram to get in the game.
I have also had a few emails with Flex software guys. I tell them real test results that they don't really want to hear.
I2PHD claims you need at least a 400 MHz machine to run his stuff.
I ran I2PHD on my 1 Gig Dell for a year with a stock built in sound card and got plenty of use out of it.

I'm going to use my 2.4GHZ puter as described above, or somewhere else on the board, with 1G RAM and I am looking for an M Audio sound card, either Delta 44 or 66.

I have emailed Tony and am awaiting reply for the SDR kits.

Going to start looking at my HF-2050 manual to see if there is anything I can play with on the radio.

I also have boxes of DSP and misc. kits and boards from ADI, MOT and TI and am going to get a list together to see if there is anything usable in there. These are full blown board level DSP EVAL boards and may be usable with what we are doing. Frank, you mentioned hacking one of these in another thread.  I have found 2 of the boxes so far but there is more. I know I have some of the ADI 985X series of DDS's too. Cool stuff.

Cheers

Paul

Paul,
That should work fine for you. sounds like Tony missed your email. fc

Trying to buy a softrock kit???

just use the price list, and send tony the money...paypal is the quickest...

announcements, availability, and prices at:

http://softrockradio.org/node/1

Every now and then Tony runs out of stock and there is a 3 or so week void where orders are stacked up. He will let you know if there is an issue.
Alberto sent me his latest Beta software to test....man I hope he included the hpsdr interface. He did modify the sync detector.

Perseus is an interesting box....

Alberto's latest sync detector is very cool. A couple seconds to lock then a second or so to hold phase. phase meter is very cool to watch as an am signal is pulled in. all automatic

 Three of Tony's kits are on their way to me next week. Now to find time to build them... ::)

What is Perseus?

cheers

Paul

Perseus is a preselector directly into a 65 Msample A/D. I think it goes for about $1100. Made in Italy so you know it is good. This is the next step beyond Flex.
No more worry about a DDS with spurs or a PLL with phase noise. Just one  crystal clock frequency that needs to be clean without jitter.
HPSDR has one coming soon with a 130 or 170 msample A/D and 1/2 watt exciter module later. Also a VK is working on a spectrum analyzer front end for it.

Flex 5k will be old soon. Save your cash it is over priced anyway. Get a used one cheap in a year or so.

I would consider getting Perseus if I wasn't dialed into HPSDR. The good thing is you get a packaged product good to go. too bad there is no TX.

I was thinking the same thing Mack, but being able to process your audio in DSP on your mega computer would be as fun and much cheaper than an Optimod 9200 or Omnia box. I have sampled a slew of buffers, drivers and linear HF amps, in the .5-5 watt range from various mfrs to allow me to use the HP 8640B as a low level modulated VFO, step it up to something usable by my various linears, TMC-PAL 1K, or Collins HF-8020. They only need 100mW I think. Actually, maybe I don't even need the buffers come to think of it. I think I already had the PAL working with the 8640 a few years ago. Man, how the brain fades with time.

Gates had a low level modulated TX back in the late 60's that used a 4CX3000 or similar, with low level mod. Looked like a washing machine and worked and sounded about the same.  ;D

Anyway, confusing things here.

I am still looking for an external sound card, the softrocks are on order and I will play with those for a while and get used to the SDR way of thinking. I am looking forward to connecting to the ouput of the 6790 to see if the synch detection can be improved.

keep up the good work fellows.

Paul

 
I do. With SDR you can transmit nearly ANY mode/emission, even new ones that come along, WITHOUT any physcial/circuit redesign or modification. Just add the code for the new mode and off you go - transmit and receive. True SDR will allow you to download the code on the fly (it could be totally transparent to the operator). Your cell phones already do some of this.

If you aren't interested in any new modes, then the above probably won't be seen as an advantage.


No need to do that. Low distortion amp designs have been around for decades. Think out of the box bro!

I & Q with a clean source you can move the world.

Sometimes I wish I was a software puke.

From that fasion description...

Einstein must have been a computer geek.... albeit a bit before his time (pun intended)

MAck,

On the 6790, check the NiCad battery on the right side of the chassis. It is soldered directly to the board and is most likely leaky or otherwise defective.  I replaced mine and all problems went away (Bite wise).

GL

Paul

I wasn't thinking of standard amateur-grade amps. With DSP, predistortion and other low IMD techniques can blow away any amateur stuff. Hams are just too lazy or dumb to do it, and the manufacturers are too cheap.

Don't mount the new one on the board. Remote it so if it leaks there will be no damage, put it in something that would contain a leak. Heck even a protable phone battery should work.

Exactly what I did. A little Panasonic NiMh and it has been going for over 3 years.

Gld you found the problem Mack.

Let me know what RX's you have. I too am always looking for new play toys.  I don't have any Harris or WJ yet.

Cheers

Paul

Interesting Mack,

Sounds a lot like my line up (of days gone by) .

Collins 51J4
R-388
R-390 (non A)
Collins HF-2050
Racal 6790, 6793, 1792
SP-600 
R-390A
Hagenuk R1001

I love receivers, and playing with and tweaking them. I am no where near where Frank is for technical tweaking, but do understand it all...just can't find the time to do it all. Seems paying the bills keeps getting in the way.

Paul

Hey Paul,
You have 10 and I have 10 so we must be in the same boat. I have less part numbers though.  Maybe more spare parts though. The only other analog RX I would consider is the Harris RF590A. I would love to drop the 590 first IF and second IF into a RA6830. Or the 6830 first mixer and sync detector in the 590.

Mack,
How about sharing the R8 sync detector schematic with me. I've never seen it or used it but hear it is a good one. What WJ RX had a sync detector?

I don't know of any analog WJ with a sync detector. Dallas Lankford did a good article on modifing 6790 audio and AGC. I found Racal sets their audio levels kind of high. This causes the audio amp to saturate. I crank audio levels down until they are just high enough to pass bite. They sound a lot better there. The Racal sunc detector is quite simple. Carrier is derived form the FM limiter / demodulator fed into the LO of a 1496. I have found the RF level into the 1496 kind of high so I put a filter module between the IF and detector module in the hot rod. The lock range is very wide on this detector so have considered adding a filter in the 1496 LO input. There is no PLL to lock up so audio comes out as soon as there is a signal present. The filter module has almost 20 dB of loss and it did not change sensitivity of the radio. It is a lot quieter with the filter. Cubic has the same high gain ahead of the detector. there must have been some design reason for all this extra gain since these receivers were both used in TCI DF systems. 
I'm on vacation this week and next and hope to concentrate on transmitters.

Seems I have missed this thread for a few days and got behind. 

Mack, the 2050 manual has landed on the coffee table but has yet yo be read. I don't know if it has a synch detector in it, although one would assume to.  The RX works great at low level signals and pulls them out of the noise. It does not however sound very hifi, with only 6KHz as the widest IF.

Mack, sounds like you operate like me. I never pay full value or buy perfectly working units. Always something wrong with them at a bargain. Fix, use, sell (not) or keep (yes).  The 2050 was a prime example. Can't remember what I paid but at the time ebay ones were fetching $2K. Think this one was $600?? not working 100%, wouldn't pass the BITE.  Without a manual, I started digging into it and found a bad contact on one of the cct brds in the front end, a couple of shorted tantalums on various boards. About 6 hours work and it was back on its feet and it has been 100% ever since. Although it stil fails bite once in a while on power up but I think it is just dry caps in the supply.

Frank, yes, the 590A is still on my wish list but haven't been able to find one (reasonable). oops, realized i missed the Cubic 3030 in the last post/list. beat ya Frank :-)

Mack, the Hagenuk R-1001 is a very nice mid/late 80's RX. It has very nice sound to it, sensitive and 3 or 4 IF filters. It is all thru hole cct brds mounted to a rear back plane. I managed to get mine with service manuals but again, haven't had to do much to keep it working.

I'll try to find a pic of it.

Synch detectors. I have many parts that I have acquired over the years, including the old Sony Stereo AM chip set which was used for synch det. in an old QEX or ??? article. Also have the ADI AD-607 eval board which will make a nice synch det.  ARG>>>  Explorer is doubleing all my typing now and I can't read a thing.

more on next post.

Paul

Well Paul I forgot the 6830 at the beach QTH so we are still even. Yes the Racal isn't a true sync detector but more that the typical radio. I once considered driving a pll with the limiter amp output but DSP is so much easier.
V2-CD  6AQ5 mod almost done. Man they stuffed the audio section in a small place. I take surface  mount components under a microscope over point to point any day 

Exactly what I was planning. I found some of my PLL chips this AM. NE564 and a few other more exotic ones. I may still try it although time and workspace are limited these days. Not sure I want to start getting into the 6790 again. It is working 100% now.

Mack, did you get yours fixed?

Paul

I would use a XOR gate as a phase detector driving a VCXO because the default or no input PLL frequency is in the center of the tuning range. All is interesting but the DSP is so much easier.

I'll take surface mount under a microscope over working on a V2 audio section any day. But it is fun to drive 807 grids to positive 20 volts and watch the monkey swing. poor screen grids are yanking 50 mills peak so they are begging for mercey. I do let the voltage dive at 50 so they don't glow.
I don't care for Tony's transformer design. Too many turns. I do 3 turns trifilar #30 on a 2 hole type 43 bead.

Tony is stuck on low perm cores. You could use a dozen turns trifilar on a ui 125 perm 3/8 or 1/2 inch toroid. Type 43 material even less turns. Even type 77 would work on 455 khz. the Best way to test is is drive the 50 ohm side with a signal like the Softrock LO and look at the secondary with a scope. Hang 200 ohms noninductive across the secondary. The transformer is 1:2 step up so you should see just under double voltage. 1 dB of loss is ok.

Hi Guys, just getting back from Christmas trip.

No, I haven't seen the kits yet Mack. Waiting.......

Well, SMT work is no problem for me, although it is nerve racking at times, especially when you drop something into shag carpet. I was production manager for a large SMT line for a few years and acquired a lot of skills and equipment (soldering, tweezers, solder magnifying lamp etc. ) The magnifier is the most important tool for me.  ;-)

Frank, yes, I remember now that the holes on the 6790 were just the right size. More likely to hold the parts while going thru the wave solder machine. You have a V2 preamp? Cool. Wanna trade for something?

More later. It's breakfast time for the boys.

Cheers

Paul

Racal used high quality board material. I have no problem changing parts. The only problem is stuff soldered to ground planes because there is no thermal relief in their artwork. This is far better than rice box boards that fall apart as soon as they see heat.

$18 is cheap money since it comes out to about $4.50 an hour. The guy building them must have it down to a science to be that cheap. I'm good down to wire bonds ...a trick I never learned because we had a real good operator to rely on.
I played inside thick film hybrids so it is easy for me as long as I can see it.
I was lucky to land a nice microscope from my brother when he bought out another business.

The "IF" kit probably about an hour, after the first one...
I think I did mine in just under 1:45...

The RX/TX took 3 hours.... but that had a bunch of transformers to wind....

Yup, seeing is everything! 
Without the desk magnifier, I can do through-hole "ok"... surface mount, forget it.

Of course, I need glasses... this year I'm getting some... and then this stuff will be more fun!

I've got dozens of projects lined up, a few of them I'm just not going to do until I knoe I can see straight.... some of the ICs are just too expensive to screw up!

TNX Mack
I've been on a roll this week with the v2-CDC. I had just finished the latest round of mods. 3 wire cord and put the 5R4 heater winding in series with the primary to drop the output voltages a bit. My line is fairly high here so had 6.7 VAC on all the heaters. Solid stated all the supplies so didn't need the 5 volt winding to light tubes any more. Transformer a lot cooler now now that it isn't near saturation.
Yea, You don't want to drink too much coffee and try to solder SM parts.
Later got on 1885 with the class E rig big bunch of guys tuning up for Saturday night.  fc

Ah Yes I remember the days when I could read the value on a chip cap without glasses...now i'm happy to see the part. Nothing beats a good microscope.

Hi guys,

Hey Frank, Check out my web site for mods I did to my Viking II. Just scroll down to "baotanchors" and then to Viking II.

http://www.qsl.net/ve7khz/ (http://www.qsl.net/ve7khz/)

The rig worked great and sounded as good as the Bauer.

73
Paul

Yea my rig also kicks butt at around 200 ma. plate current 230 I can't hit 100%.
I still modulate the screens but increased the dropping resistor to 30 K and added 50K to ground at the Fianls. The  unmodulated screen voltage is around 170v. It was 219v.  My plate voltage is 760V after it was solid stated and added a second 8 uF cap. I put an L bracket on the two cap bolts so I could mount a second cap in the cavity between the chassis and case.
I wanted the audio self contained so changed the audio driver to a 6AQ5 and installed a bigger driver transformer. I yanked the big screen dropping resistor and installed an L bracket with two 10 watt zeners in series with a 15 k 20 watt  resistor. The shunt reglator is set at 250 volts and capable of 50 ma. The 807s re biased at 29 volts with a pair of 5 watt zeners. The resting current is about 40ma. I haul on the grids in AB2 with up to 20 volts positive. The screeens sag a bit when I haul on the monkey swing. There is 12 K across the grids. I still have the compressor connected but set high to limit things a bit. Thinking of adding more time constant though for soft recovery.  No feedback yet. I never liked feedback around transformers with the crazy phase shifts so have not tried it yet.

YEs, I have used 409 now for a few years, works well. I have also washed PCBs in the dishwasher. Sure gets the junk off them.

Tony confirmed shipping the softrocks on Dec. 19th so they are in the hands of the postal workers.

Yes, I too have been watching that 2050 but I haven't bid on it yet. I'll wait to see how high it goes before new years. Not sure if I need another project but I do have the full manual. You probably won't find a downloadable version as it is about 3" thick with tons of foldouts. I bought mine years ago for $100 +/-?? from a fellow who was getting them reproduced in volume. You may still find one in print floating around the web. It has an odd ball IF freq of 3MHz as well.

Keep us posted on the softrock progress.

Cheers

Paul

Shoot Mack,

I didn't know you were the high bidder. I threw a bid at it this morning, or was it last night, and I see someone (you??) has it at $450. Sorry.

I would like it but not for much more than $500. I emailed the owner and he says it is completely dead except for the failure light. I think it will be something either really simple, like power supply, or really complex like multiple failures from a lightning hit or???

Anwyay, PM me offline if you want. We don't want to bid it up between us.

Cheers

Paul

Alberto sent me a copy of 1.3 a few weeks ago. I see he added DSB function on the AM sync detector per my request (maybe?).  That phase meter on his display really points out a moving VFO or FMing.

We have had a number of emails but have not checked today's version yet.

Been playing with Winrad 1.3 with my SDR-IQ...

So far can't get AM to sound good at all... too much distortion.
I guess I could be doing something wrong... but there aren't a whole lot of settings!

The RX works fine with the SpectraView software though.

Yes, I did...
The Winrad software will only recognize a soundcard without the proper .dll file.

I hadn't seen the Perseus yet... but the SDR-IQ at  less than $375. fit my needs just fine.

(needs = playtime)

Tried softrock... ok for $11. but without adding a front-end, I found it rather dull (deaf too).
plus you need a good sound card for those, to get the best audio... for 'good' audio, a $5 soundcard works dandy.
But, they are meant as an "entry-level" SDR.... So, mission accomplished.

The 'IQ' uses (and is powered by) the USB port.
So you don't have to contend with the usual soundcard-woes for the I/Q input, as long as your card plays well into an amplified speaker system you're fine.


Don't know yet why I haven't been able to get Winrad up to snuff yet, but by the looks of the forum, there are others who have had issues with the earlier releases as well, so there should be some answers there.

I think he may have changed his loop constants but have not checked it yet. There was a bit of distortion compared to the .99 version of his early software. The wider capture range must have caused this. I think it will take a few more versions to get a good balance. I thought is capture range was a bit wide in the beta. fc

Hi Mack,

Upon quick perusal of the HF-2050 manual, I see that there are 3 power supplies, +15, -15 and +5VDC.  The fault lite uses the +15VDC, the displays and most of the rest of the cctry use the 5VDC supply. My guess is the 5VDC regulator or something in the 5VDC supply is faulty, and thus, the radio seems dead, except for the fault lite. These power supplies are notoriously underdesigned and run extremely hot. After 20 years of service, I wouldn't be surprised if the PS has failed.

Paul

http://pcovington.blogspot.com/
Quick Silver

This should be a very cool RX. Phil is one of the brains behind HPSDR

Hi MAck,

Kits arrived today!! YEah!!  The R's look ike 1206 package and the chip looks like .050 pitch. Shouldn't be too hard for these old eyes to assemble. :P

I'll let you know as I progress. Let us know how yours works.

My sound card also arrived last week, the Delta 66 and Omni I/O. Looks like a great package.
Cheers

Paul

Phil Covington will be doing a board later this spring with the A/D running 50% faster. He is also the designer for HPSDR Mercury.

There was a guy on softrock who was building boards. As far as the stuff with FPGAs I'd gladly pay someone to do it with a pick and place machine. They are very ESD sensitive.  The softrock boards are actually quite easy if you have the right optics. The only problem I had was the through hole resistors. You have to measure each value to be sure. Color code was very hard to see even under the scope.

Softrock Lite SMT is done, just hunting around for the BOM for the IF version. What did you guys use? I assume they are all the same with the exception of the list of parts enclosed in the kits for the IF.

Don't want to have to desolder anything.

SMT was fun, took about an hour and I was in a 160M QSO at the time. Sure glad I found the magnifier light.

73
Paul

All Done.

Softrock Lite is built and redy for the xfmr winding. Going to review the notes in this thread and determine which cores, wire etc to use. Also going to find some breakaway header pins and midgie jumpers for the divide by select, and a couple of socket pins for the xstal, just in case I want to use this for another RX one day.

I'll keep ya posted...off to bed now.

Paul

Paul,
Dump those transformers. 3 turns trifilar #30 in a Fairite 2873002402 2 hole core is perfect for 455 KHz. A 3/8 or 1/2 toroid can be used with 10 or 12 turns. type 43 and type 73

Hi Frank,

I know I have some 2 hole ferrites around somewhere...but where??  I have lots of little torroids but don't know the material. Any easy way to test?  I have been collecting samples for years.  Ordering more cores from the US will take weeks to get here. What is the material in the kit cores?

I will see what I have that will fit.

Paul

Wind a trifilar transformer and put two of the windings in series. Put a 200 ohm noninductive resistor across the whole secondary. Drive the third winding with a 50 ohm source at the frequency you want to operate on. Look at the primary and secondary voltage with a scope. You should see a 1:2 step up if you are right. More turns on the core lowers the operating frequency. You can even use your RX as a source if you have a 6 dB. pad between RX and transformer forcing 50 ohms. You will see slight loss in the transformer but not more than 1 dB.
For 455 KHz a higher permability core will work type 77 or 43. Higher IF around 5 MHz type 43. Above that 61. 61 will work over all ranges but it will take a lot of turns. Tony uses iron core so that is why all the wire.

Thanks Frank,

I'll start with 5 turns trifilar and see how it works.  What about L1? Use Tony's core or go with another? Assume a new one. Have no LCR meter here so will need to measure inductance by other methods...ah, finally get to use my Heathkit grid dip meter...or maybe the MFJ-259..nope, doesn't go low enough.

Paul

I didn't use the input filter but if it has more than 1 layer of wire on it I would think the q is low.

I am really beginning (well it's been more than 20 years) to loath computers. I too am having issues with my supposedly hot rod box. I am trying to dub my son's DV videos from the camera to the computer using either Windoze Movie Maker or Adobe Premiere, both do stupid things, like random lock ups, and not recognizing the firewire link. Adobe won't play anything longer than 4:59 minutes then it locks up. Arg!!!

But I digress, I went to the shop today and found a few more things needed for this project. 200 Ohm R for testing the cores, small wire, cores etc.

Have a look at the pic and let me know your thoughts. The white wire is 30 ga teflon insulated silver plated, the black/blue is 30 ga Kynar insulated silver plated, and the enameled is around 28 ga, Tony's is in there for reference, the coax is, I think, RG-314, or 374?? It's 50 ohm silver plated stuff too. I have no idea what the core materials are.....pick a core...any core.

Cheers
Paul

That front toroid looks good. The pot cores are good for the lowfer bands.

 ::) :o ;D ::) ::) ;) ;D

Too too funny.

I have about 50 of those types of boxes. Too much crap collected over the years and now I am finally getting to be able to use some of it ...and I can't remember what box I put it in. The bulk of the boxes are labeled but only with the "big ticket" items. The little shxt gets forgotten then when you need those 2 holed ferrite cores you know you have a bag of, ya can't find them. 

Ya, computers, ya can't live with them....but ya can shoot them.

Maybe next new years it will get in the way of the .45 Colt.

Cheers

Paul

It sucks when you bring something home from a flea just to find that missing box of 100 parts.

Why two streams of the same data? Where are you getting this information? I would like to read about it.

A stock internal sound card will work fine with Alberto's ver .99. I used it for a year. Don't be afraid to give it a try. You may still need to reduce the op amp gain if you hang it off an I.F.

BTW Alberto's .99 runs fine on my 1 gig Dell with 500 meg of ram.

You just realized this? I posted the message below in this very thread weeks ago. Must be hell getting old.   ; - )

http://amfone.net/Amforum/index.php?topic=12813.msg96793#msg96793

Yea, someone told me to have an open mind. I tried it and my brain fell out.


Most people didn't notice.

Huz,
I friend in the know told me the cell phones use SDR and also DDCs ( digital down converters.) The DDCs in cell phones have limited dynamic range. A cell site every couple miles makes this usable. The HPSDR guys jumped on the DDC idea so I reported the limited performance. Phil Covington found out in his first quick silver design. The new Quick Silver has that function stuffed in a FPGA to get better performqnce.
The present configuration is to sample at 125 mhz and DDC to a lower frequency that the DSP can handle. I think he also has a step attenuator ahead of the a/d to slide the dynamic range up and down. I still think this configuration like all SDRs need a good preselector ahead of them. Why do I think this? You look at an AM signal on the flex display near the noise floor. You can easily see the carrier well above the noiise floor before you hear any audio. Say you need 4 bits of A/D to get any usable audio.
This now becomes 4 bits less dynamic range you can claim. Without a preselector there is additional noise into the A/D so the floor is higher knocking off more bits.
Take Flex and measure MDS and dynamic range just looking at the spectrum display (which shows impressive numbers) then do the same thing with an AC RMS meter on the audio as you would with an analog receiver.
My QSD is pretty close to the SDR1K and I found the noise floor drops when the bandwidth is limited ahead of the input. It is very easy to demonstrate great performance with two signals as an input but things degrade when there are 200 signals coming in to the QSD. That is why I'm still hanging off a 455 KHz IF.
The HPSDR (A,O,J) MDS sits at about -145 dBM buy I can only get -130 or so due to set up noise.
Presently it looks like the Quick Silver 2 is the machine and Phil told me he is still involved with HPSDR Mercury. I figure by summer there will be another performance jump. QSD, SDR1K and Flex 5K so yesterday. So don't spend a lot of money yet.
I look to the future to see the day when there is no longer LO phase noise to limit close in performance or DDS spurs to trash the WB spectrum. I hear there may be a 170 mHz A/D option possible. Not sure if the DDC can keep up with the flow though.
Staty tuned
 

I wonder if my Collins HF-8060 preselector would be of value in front of the 6790 or HF-2050?  It was made for the HF-2050 and HF-8050 series of RX's.  I haven't got around to reading the manual to see what exactly it does, or what it needs for tuning input...but it's sitting in the rack.

paul

A preselector that is tuned is the way to go. I have a nice cubic one that I hope to press into service. It is tuned with 4 BCD inputs. The problem today is the same as in TRF days when receivers got dual RF stages. Harris also makes a nice one.
The Harris and Cubic pre/post selectors both have a 10% bandwidth

We have a couple R&S receivers in our lab. I would have to perform that test myself. One tunes from 30 hz to 40 GHz in one box. the other only goes to 7 GHz but has a built in tracking generator.
I know someone who bought a 3280 and likes it. They are 2 or 3 conversions to a DSP with many possible bandwidths. It may also have I/Q outputs if that isn't enough for you. The 3038 is a single control to dual analog RX. Good for diversity. I have a couple Cubics and would like to find the time to hot rod them. Very well built. A bit more phase noise than a Racal though.
I would put my money on the 3280 if you want it all in one box.

Yea, but I can blame it on all of the drugs I did back in the 70s and get away with it!! ;D ;D

http://www.kongsfjord.no/

Check out the Dallas files. Good reading on the real performance of SDR. He is a little further up the food chain but we both agree.

Sounds like serial A/D data. I'm sure it could be easily converted to analog with the right pair of shift registers and a couple D/As with a little glue logic.

I read  it a while ago nice looking radio.....

That's most likely true, Mack.
But sometimes our memories are nothing more than our brains animation of what someone told us we did.

Phil Covington told me the the next faster A/D will drop right into his new RX and runs at 160 MHz. Sample rate. His radio sounds like it will be the hot rod soon.
Then there is the blank window with no date for the 250 MHz part of the future.
It will have 2 more bits than the Italian radio. I hope the price isn't too high.
Dallas sent me some test data on the Italian and Phil shared some of his test data.
No synthesizer phase noise is quite cool. Still there is the front end issue so worse case it make a cool converter hanging off an IF.

I will be getting real test data on the Perseus from a trusted source. I will share it as soon as the source tells me it is ok.
Each bit you add increases the dynamic range by 6 dB. The faster you sample the more data you have to play with.
Two digital streams are cool if you are a software guy and can suck it into a computer of DSP. A good software guy would deal with it. I'm thinking it could be sucked into a parallel port.

Only if everything else is right and only up to a point. Many computer sound cards claim 24 bit A/D. None have 144 dB dynamic range. Neither will any receiver.

Right now, Perseus is just vaporware. Until it can actually be purchased, all comparisons of it to items currently available are bogus.

OK, right now, Perseus is just vaporware. Until it is actually being shipped with the SAME specs as are being claimed, all comparisons of it to items currently available are bogus.

Steve is very right on the bits, I was dreaming in a perfect world. Dallas plans to return his radio....after he collects some data. I'm not sure if Sherwood has this one yet. Heck send him an email he will respond. He is a good guy.
I think it will be safe to say Covington's design with 2 more bits will have greater dynamic range. I was on the Perseus site and looked at some of the displays and see the noise floor well raised before the spurs appear. I measure dynamic range as any increase in the noise floor or a spur generated which is real world. The S5 method is quite bogus but makes the sheep think they are getting something good.
Perseus guys claimed the noise floor was raised due to the generators but I'm not sure. 14 bits is 84 dB unless you do magic. 84 dB close in is pretty good but not so hot wide band. My QSD does 90 dB at 1 KHz spacing and 97 dB at 10 KHz.
It also chokes on anything stronger than -27 dBm. I'm using HPSDR interface.

217 posts later and the thread is back on track...a new record??  :-)

Congrats Mac!! Let us know how you like it when it arrives.

Cheers

Paul

I picked up the other Cubic (R-3038) receiver this guy was selling. It's not an SDR but it is a dual receiver with filters included.
Anybody have a suggestion where to find a manual and schematic?

Mike

Well Frank is the Cubic wiz here, but that 3038 sure looks like a 3030 or 3080. I know the 3030 manual is online, but can't quite remember where. If you get stuck, let me know and I'll email you the 3030 one.

cheers
Paul

Hay Mack,

You could have spent that kind of money easily on a Howard Mills restomod 75A4 or some other highly prized bit of fluff. Not knocking Howard's work or the 75A4 at all.

That 3280 is going to be a lot of fun Mack. Your going to love it. I know you'll keep all of the SDR fans here (I include myself) up on your progress.

It sounds like you might be able to figure out how to communicate with it and I might need help with the 3038. I'll be asking a few questions from time to time as I learn about it.

The manuals for the 3030/3080 will probably give me enough information to keystroke though the menus to light up and run the two receivers. I think I found enough information to hook up my GPS disciplined 10 MHz oscillator as well but the rigs probably have a number of differences as well. Thanks for the post. I suspect the manufacturer doesn't want the manuals and schematics for the more esoteric equipment passed to the public or competition. We will have to figure out the radios ourselves I guess.

Tell you what. In your searches for manuals for the 3280, ask for information on the 3038 as well. I'll do the same. Have fun. Way to go!

Mike

My guess the 3038 is just like a 3030 only 1 front panel control to the CPU driving 2 rf sections in parallel. I have a bunch of cubic stuff so let me know if you have a problem. Like Racal the weak link is the caps on the supply rails. My guess the left side is missing a panel interface, CPU and remote module and the control signals are hard wired across motherboards. There are not many control  signals required. 4 for preselector, 4 for the filter module and 4 or so to detector. Then serial lines to BFO and synthesizer modules. Heck you could eliminate half of them too.
This would make a cool diversity module. BTW I have a friend in FLA who just had key pad overlays made. That is a must have spare. I try to use a knuckle when I press them and not a finger nail to prevent damage. I think he is getting $10 or $15 each

Mack,

As far as there being no SDRs for unix:

http://www.gnu.org/software/gnuradio/ (http://www.gnu.org/software/gnuradio/)

Looks pretty complete to me.

Personally, I'd use this (or any other SDR) off the IF of an existing transceiver to prevent front-end overload. There's plenty of code out there to control modern transceivers, all one would need to do is set the software for the IF and have it command the rig to set the target frequency.

That would be minimal coding effort, and would get around what Frank (very correctly) calls the "TRF"-ness of current SDR methodology.

If you don't care about front-end overload, the hardware is out there to run this straight off the antenna. Haven't looked at the prices, but it looks pretty straightforward.

There is a nice lady at Cubic but it is very hard to get stuff out of them. This is new stuff so it must be PDF files. Cubic also has a 455 KHz output. They use a single tighter roofing filter usually 10 KHz wide. Racal usually uses two 20 or 25 KHz wide.....unless you are very lucky to get a pair of 8 KHz units that are very tight. I was lucky to find a pair for my hot rod.

I went searching through the thread looking for someone named "Jack" and didn't find one. Were you referring to the link I posted?

If so, then you should look at it again. It does pretty much everything under the sun, even GPS, PCS, and HDTV. Works on Unix, Mac, and windows. There are pre-built executables for all the OSes it runs on, or you can download the source code and build/modify it yourself.

The front-ends are all there, too. All you need is the hardware.

The primary interface is a little over $700, which is a little higher than I'd expect, but not too bad. There are daughterboards that cover HF, VHF, UHF, and SHF. Couldn't find the prices on them.

Looks like a pretty freakin' slick package to me. I've been going through the source code for the last few hours and I like what I see.

Certainly worth looking into.

Good thread. Probably should have been in the tech section all along.

Some background on digital radio/digitizing RF at the link below. It's a little dated by the basics are good reading.

http://www.amwindow.org/misc/pdf/DigitalRXConcepts.pdf


And a short, but fairly good intro to SDR (with their own approach touted) from Vanu. Having had some involvement with the company in the past, they do some pretty good work.

http://www.vanu.com/wp-content/resources/intro/SWRprimer.pdf

HUZ,
Very good article. I need to read it a dozen or so times.

Cubic is weird about letting too much data out. I have a pile of 35XX series VHF/UHF stuff but try and find a manual for it. My part of the cubic deal was to build a 3512 without any information. The only thing I had to go on was the stripe painted across the top of the modules. It took a pile of work to get it going. JN is very close to it while on vacation. It was sold to a retired friend in P.I. What a beautiful design. A friend just bought a similar unit off ebay and tried many calls to Cubic with only a simple users manual. Getting info on the innards of the modules requires inside contacts I have been unable to make. The closest I got was a guy who works there and he does repairs for big bucks and wasn't about to let anything out.
It seems Cubic got rid of most of the hand drawn data files. I'm sure the 3280 is in a format that could be copied as PDF but someone will have to spend the bucks to get it. Good luck if it is USG property.
Interesting thing about Cubic looking at the 3280 block diagram. I bet many circuits in the 3280 came right out of the 3030.
Makes me wonder what the new stuff looks like if this is hitting the surplus market.

Only $1000?

So, $1000 bucks for hardware & software is less than $700 for hardware & software?

You confused me less when you called me "Jack"!   :D

All kidding aside, for two seperate (mostly-)full-duplex transceive chains that can be run on a 1 or 2 GHz machine with a half-gig of RAM and any OS you like, that doesn't seem that bad a deal to me. The high-speed number-crunching is done in an FPGA which allows a fairly modest host machine to run it. It's a USB 2.0 attachment, which is actually pretty sensible (I've never been a huge USB fan, but in this application it makes sense).

I've been looking for a development platform that will allow for a rig with a software IF that has auxiliary digital ins/outs for things like external AGC, filter switching, and so on, and this looks like exactly what I've been looking for.

The main reason I brought it up was because you said (quite emphatically, in fact) that there were no SDR packages for unix systems. Once I got looking into it a little further I realized that this would give me the means to build an SDR system that can address the shortcomings of entirely-software SDR setups.

Not to mention, it runs on unix.  ;)

Hey Frank, a couple of questions for you, while I'm on this topic:

When we last discussed this on the air, I mentioned that I've got piles of SBL-1s and SRA-1s from back in my microwave days. You said those would be poor candidates for mixers in this kind of application. I'll take your word for it, but I'm curious as to what their shortcomings are, and what would be better mixers for this kind of application.

Also, what's the word on phase noise with DDS chips? Good/bad/what? Should I look elsewhere for frequency conversion?

Now, I'll be good and sign my name so you old buzzards don't start calling me "Craig", "Allan", or "Johnny". Just try not to call me "Dave"*, okay?  ::)

--Thom
*Anyone who's heard my "Dave" incidents on 75 knows who I'm talking about.

Okay Dave

 Dave  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UcpoGBLPO0)

SRA1 and SBL mixers work fine but not the greatest for dynamic range. They could be used as a I/Q demodulator. A good DDS has spurs even the newest ones have them. A good clock will limit phase noise to a very good value. All synthesizers have phase noise.
The direct A/D with a clean clock is the future.
BTW, not that I'm bashing Flex but look at the power connector on the 5000. A little molex connector for 25 amps WUWT.
HPSDR guys are about to release the 1/2 watt exciter soon. I've had a number of emails with the designer over the few days. He figures the BB spurs down around 75 dB. I asked him to post a picture. There is talk of a spectrum analyzer software package with a tracking generator. Covington's RX sounds cool but his price is right up there with Perseus.   

No, I'm talking about just using them as straight mixers.

We were discussing building real RF sections and mixing down to a filtered IF and digitizing from there (and the other way around for transmit). SDR without the "TRF" factor. This platform I'm looking at allows for just that. It's got two DACs, two ADCs, all coupled to an FPGA. Gives you two RF ins, two RF outs, and spare analog and digital lines for other applications (like AGC, DDS, other control lines).

The hardware: http://www.ettus.com/ (http://www.ettus.com/).
The software: http://www.gnu.org/software/gnuradio/ (http://www.gnu.org/software/gnuradio/)

This is the perfect launching platform to build exactly the kind of system you and I were discussing. It allows us to do what software does best while still doing in hardware what really needs to be in hardware. Just adding an AGC can keep us out of the saturated-ADC scenario (which we agree is the biggest weakness).

Best of all, absolutely nothing about the hardware or software is proprietary, and there's no requirement that one be used with the other.


So if I wasn't sloppy about clocking it, I'd probably be okay?


No programming skills required. I don't know where you got the idea there was. The Ettus unit costs $700 but takes a heavy load off the PC by doing most of the work in an FPGA.


...but can your WinTV card generate and transmit HDTV? How about radar, GPS, PCS, WiFi, or any other service you can name?


What is that supposed to mean?


HUH?!? Where are you getting this from?

Mack, go back and look at it again. The project started in 1998! Where did you get this "first release" information? You've got your facts completely wrong, here.


So download the pre-compiled Windows executables and you're on the air instantly, just like any other SDR! You don't even need to use that evil, nasty command line for anything! Just because something allows you to modify or improve it doesn't mean you have to!

I get the idea you're not reading as much as skimming to find the first excuse to rule it out. Your loss.


Then don't! Nobody's got a gun to your head!

Appearently your interest in SDR is limited even more than you think some of the options limit you (and no SDR option limits you to anything, by the very nature of SDR).

Buy whatever you want, it's your money. But after making broad, sweeping (and often insistent) statements like "the only SDR software out there is written for Windows only", "there is no SDR software for unix", "there is no SDR software for the Mac", and just about everything you've said about GNU radio being entirely wrong, I would recommend you do a lot more studying before sinking much more money into this stuff, as a lot of the conclusions you're basing your decisions on appear to be the product of someone else's mis-information.

Not trying to give you crap, Mack... just think about it, okay?

--Thom

Don't waste your money on anything over a year old.
Stick with softrock if you don't want to invest in the newest hardware. Things are changing fast as new parts appear.

Then don't use those functions. That's all in software, not hardware. It's the same with any SDR.

I just couldn't understand why you were so quick to cast stones at it given the amount of money you were eager to throw at a receiver you can't get any support for.

Statements like "I don't want or need a consumer-grade SDR" or that this package was "a fairly basic affair" that "didn't have much to offer" are out of place, given that you only want an SDR to receive HF. Any pile of rubbish can accomplish that. All SDRs are capable of doing everything you say you don't want one to do, and they all have those functions built in.


Not for what you want to do. The HF daughterboards are really just a straght shot from the motherboard to the RF connection. One uses transformer coupling, the other uses differential amps. No other work is being done at that level, so you can accomplish the same thing with a hunk of wire. You don't even need the Ettus motherboard, it just takes a lot of the load off the PC itself. You can plug the software into anything you want to plug it into, even the SoftRock units you're already purchasing.


Then it seems a bit disingenuous to immediately dismiss any approach as somehow doing it wrong.


That's the catch with SDR, no matter who made the hardware or software. You can't change the laws of mathematics. An FIR is an FIR is an FIR, no matter how it's implemented or who wrote the code for it.

Once you get to a certain threshold with the sample rate, going beyond that doesn't gain you anything. Since you're talking about a large bandwidth being whittled down to a small one, the sampling rate only needs to satisfy the Nyquist theorem. Since your FIR is setting a max frequency, you have no need for any real resolution beyond that. Going much higher than that falls into the realm of audiophoolery, it's just doing something that makes no practical difference for sake of perceived gain that's immeasurable in reality.

--Thom

I suggest reading the link HUZ provided. There is some good information in it. I learned something today but will need to read again by morning.
I'm only interested in raw performance and don't care how you get it analog or digital.

I didn't say I had the solution, Mack. Calm down, go back, and read it again. What I said was: the problem is mathematics itself. Ask anyone on those reflectors and they'll tell you the same thing.

What I also said was that once you've got a pre-determined bandwidth (therefore, pre-determined max frequency), the sampling rate only needs to be so high, and going higher yields rapidly diminishing gains. Ask anyone on those reflectors that, and they'll tell you the same thing. It's only your opinion that the sampling rate needs to be any higher than that which yields a measurable benefit.

For that matter, ask any math professor that, and he'll tell you the same thing.


Go back and read what I wrote again. I said the exact opposite.


You need to calm down, go back, and read what was written instead of just skimming over it and coming up with something completely different. I'm not the one who made all kinds of false claims about whose SDR package does what, and what it doesn't do. When I show you examples that counter those claims, you blow your top and shoot the messenger.

Since I'm clearly wasting my time sharing anything factual with you, this conversation is over.

Again, I never claimed I had any solutions to anything. I only stated what the actual problem was, and why the solution is so elusive. You're putting words in my mouth.

You can throw all the smiley faces on it you want, personal attacks are personal attacks, and I won't carry on a conversation with someone who is going to stoop to that level when presented with facts that don't agree with their opinions.

Good night.

read the huz article and learn about oversampling.
Aim then shoot
Or as the OM says make sure brain is engaged before putting mouth in gear.

The problem with up conversion then down conversion is the close in phase noise of the synthesizer. Go to a DDS source and you live with spurs down only 80 or so DB.
The A/D of the antenna needs to be very high dynamic range or have a very good preselector ahead of it.
Making very fast A/D parts with many bits is easy to say but quite hard to do. As noted in the article HUZ provided. It is a bit dated and L.T. has caught up a bit. Even interleaving is hard to do because the parts need to track perfectly.
I have followed this stuff for years when parts could barely track a missile head as a plane flew over a target. So now that we are decoding RF is a very big deal a couple decades later.

Check the next issue of QEX and Drentea's RX article if you think hardware guys been resting. I've been following synthesizer design since about 1975 and have designed enough of them to know the pain. Kind of hard to duplicate the best HP synthesized generator in less than 100 cubic inches.

The 8640 is VERY clean.

The 8640 is one of the cleanest sig gens ever, but it ain't synthesized.  It uses a very high-Q tunable cavity as the element in a free-running oscillator.  That, and plenty of attention to filtering the power, makes the difference.

Show me a synthesized source cleaner that a ham can afford and I'll buy it. Till then A half hour of drift is a minor issue.
John, You still in P.I. I would love to Visit Ken Gaskin out there. He has quite a collection including the R3512 I built..

Naw, I got back Wed nite.  A FB 26 hour trip including the 4-1/2 hour drive from JFK.  Considering all that was going on I didn't have time to do much of anything other than the family thing.

Oh well you have to pay for that kitchen pass once and a while.

Got to drive a Cubic CDR 3280 today cool radio 1/2 the size of a 6830. Didn't have a good generator to do tests but looks like a nice performer.

We need a full report. I wish I could have put on my torture bench.

Please don't send it to me. I want to buy hardwood floors for the new QTH not another radio and it might suck me in. R3030 has this cool meter function that centers the carrier in the bandpass. The little display on the right side of the 3280 display duplicates that function. I can give you some simple tests that tell a lot about a radio. All you need is a crystal oscillator and step attenuator.
The S meter starts function above -115 dBm and goes up to -17 dBm. I had the S meter pegged and tuned off center frequency to listen to phase noise. Based on a crude test it looked similar to the RA6830 but filters had better ultimate rejection close in. I don't think it outperformed my hot rod but it had many more choices for bandwidth. It had no problem handling over 100 dB of input range.

Hay Frank,

Would running the 3038 through it's paces be of any interest to you? I could forward it to you for the bench torture test. It would be interesting to see the true specs. You'll need a 600 ohm line amp to listen. I guess that's standard.

Mike

Mike,
I wonder if you could send me a list of the module part numbers in that radio.
They are on top of the modules. Also what filters does it have. That should make a nice diversity radio. I have a R2307 mil R3030 and a R3090 VLF radio with HF modules installed so it is a carbon copy of the R2307 except for the name tag.
I'll convert it to VLF if I ever find the missing modules. They are pretty easy to repair so if one side works different from the other you can swap modules to find the problem. I can help you if you ever have a problem.
I'm sure it performs as well as the 3030 and may have the same modules in the front end. I will be glad to share the test data I have. Also have some 3030 mods to reduce background noise in the audio if you have the same detectors.
The 3030 is very sensitive maybe 6 to 8 dB better than the Racal since it has an RF stage preselector. A bit more close in phase noise than the RA6830 though.
Too much risk / bucks to ship the whole radio but I can do repairs on modules. 

Yup, That fan moves some air but the package is so small I would be careful turning it off. I have a couple 6830s with fans and they are a lot quieter in a rack.
Filters. I noticed the same thing with my TCI/BR 8174 radio. Roofing filters were kind of wide. I suspect this was done for digital modes. I would put a 16 KHz filter in the 456, Heck a 455 KHz filter will work. The filter skirts in the 3280 are quite nice you would need cascaded filters in an analog radio to match that performance. I was able to hear the effects of the wide roofing filters by pumping a strong signal into the input to hear the blow by. Also I would find something tighter for the first IF. Bummer these guys shifted the IF by 1 KHz. The advantage of my homebrew SDR is I can select any filter I want ahead of the QSD. Still the 3280 is quite cool and I got used to the keys quickly. Hope you can get a service manual. Yes, give them a call they never answer email. fc

Dallas sent me his article a couple weeks ago but I agreed not to post it.
Notice the A/D is saturated at -16 dBM 

Mack,
That serial stream is no big deal to a good software guy. All it is is raw A/D serial data. Demodulation is demodulation and filters are filters. I would think by '98 that would have been sorted out. I think Cubic has been doing DSP demodulation since the late '80s. The options I saw made me think the only thing I might want is a spectrum display. it would be no big deal to strobe that serial data into shift registers and drive a pair of D/As to shoot it into a sound card. A smart software guy could take it into a fast parallel port. Or another option is pick off the 456 kHz and send it through a softrock and do the same thing I'm doing. I bet all you need is a cable to connect it internally to the rear panel. My guess a DB insert at one end and a BNC at the other. I had to peg the S meter at -17 dBM input just to hear a couple spurs as I tuned off frequency. Just use it and enjoy your cool new toy.

Looked at the 3280 manual and convinced all you need is a DB coax insert at one end of a cable and a BNC at the other to get 456 KHz out the back. Last time I looked a DB coax connector with 5 inserts was $25 at Newark. I might even have some in the cubic stash.

The HPSDR Mercury is supposed to be the same radio but interfaced through ozy. Phil's radio has everything on one board. Function should be the same. $1k by the time your done getting it into a chassis. Not sure I want to jump ship from HPSDR after investing in the hardware. If I was to start over I might go after Phil's board. Both use the same A/D. Phil designed both of them.

You guys seen this new Ten Tec? We are looking at this at work.

http://radio.tentec.com/Commercial/RX400

We have been looking at alternatives to our sister companies stuff.

Mike WU2D

RX 400 site says IP3 of 12 dBM that kind of sucks. I'm shooting for better than 30 as a base line for the future.
I see the trend for GUI toys replacing real performance. I want both or I will stick with performance and use the GUI toys as an add on.
Mack, I guess I will stick with HPSDR  and wait for Mercury.  Phil claims his software will work with HPSDR so I'll give it a try when he releases it. Only because I started there and he designed both.

So how is that 3280? Ready to swap it for a nice analog radio?

Mack,
I'm not sure but new releases of FPGA code will need to be downloaded directly into the prom he stores the code in. New FPGAs are like RAM  so code is loaded when power is turned on. This is different than the program in the computer that communicates with the board and processes data. I have not checked his site in a few days to see if he has posted his code. 

TAPR is taking orders on the next module the 1/2 watt exciter. Spectrum plots show third order crud down 50 dB. It is supposed to be all mode.

They come assembled and tested.

Got a couple of these cuties at work: 

http://www2.rohde-schwarz.com/en/products/radiomonitoring/product_categories/receivers/EB200.html

Mike WU2D

These results are impressive but look closer. The noise floor is up almost 20 dB at that power level and he is doing the test so 30 dB above the noise floor.
When I test dynamic range I consider spur or noise increase of 3 dB as the trip point. I consider these results impressive but a bit inflated.

Phil sent me a screen shot of 2 signals closely spaced that also showed the noise floor increase and claimed it was his generator.
I reference everything to the noise floor and never make claims unless I can demonstrate performance. Yup you saturate an A/D you are done so don't know how he gets around the problem.
Maybe the DDC deletes saturated samples???

They've been touting that thing for over three years now. Is it actually something real now, as opposed to the vaporous item it has been?

Hey Mack,
Sorry but 40% jump in A/D speed is news.......

No, it's not. They had black box receivers, but they were HF only.

Phil told me the new A/D will drop right in. Same package. I suspect the oscillator would need to be changed.

I was involved in a company standards program on PC board design covering the subject because we have way too many experts suffering from cranial rectal inversion. I'm had a number of good PMs on oscillators and I'm sure glad I have a good stash of SAW VCSOs.
My best are a couple 1 GHz units that hit the trash because the welds leaked 3 atoms of hydrogen during a leak test. I wonder why nobody ever thought to solder the seam over the weld....that was what I did.

It wasn't three but it was low. I just fished them out of the trash and ran a bead across the bad section of weld. I knew the day would come when they would be useful. BTW using the internal PLL of a DDS to multiply clock generates plenty of phase noise as confirmed by a couple of the smart guys so the guy who made the claim was quite wet.

Just built my first SoftRock rig, a 80M Lite.  This is pretty damn sweet.  I need to rig up a crapstal socket though, I think I am wearing out the solder pads with all the crapstal swapping I've been doing.
 
I see a better soundcard in my future though.  Rocky and WinRad work great at 96 KHz sampling rates but PowerSDR is all distorted and picking up a crap load of noise at 96 KHz, it's even crappy at 48 KHz.

... and 5 minutes later we have one ghetto of a crapstal socket with an SMT crapstal stuffed in there:

(http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/3539/crapstal1ic8.th.jpg) (http://img180.imageshack.us/my.php?image=crapstal1ic8.jpg)
 

Same exact soft-rock... just a different /BFP, and crystal..


A better soundcard couldn't hurt.....


WinRad does need some tweaking....!!
The S-Am feature in the latest release, just wanders all over the place, then tries to lock on ssb signals...


The next SDR project for me is the WB6DHW  "DDS Controller"...
Mine will be set-up to be a "0" to 54mhz Rx..... and will supply the class-e rig with a vfo.

Based on the AD9954 dds, with a 125mhz clock.


Will at least be a fun soldering job!

Well, the 48 pin dds ic probably won't be "fun".... but beyond that..............................

Listening to my first AM signal on the SoftRock.  K2VH talking to someone, can't hear the other side of the QSO, on 3705.  I need to find a ~ 31 MHz crapstal to get my center frequency up near 3.875.

I resolved my problem with PowerSDR, I just had to adjust the latency settings and it's now working fine at 96 KHz sampling.
 

So Frank.......
Do you think for the extra $$ that Phil's QS1R VERB is the way to go over HPSDR?

I say extra... but who knows how much Mercury is going to cost.....? and when it'll be available.....

Phil's VERB is $799  just for the board.....

Atlas, Janus, and Ozy are $370 A&T.... plus Mercury... I assume around 250-300??

Phil told me the performance will be the same. If I was to start over I would go with Phil's. He designed both of them but he has more control on his product so I'm sure his priority will be to support his product. He still hangs out on HPSDR. Also he plans to make his software usable with HPSDR. Still HPSDR J/O/A is the best sound card performance known. Mercury will be cheaper because the communication will be to the Atlas bus so it won't need as much hardware. I just sent in my check for Penelope exciter.
 

Do you have any notion of when Mercury is due out?

Phil said on 2-12, "a few days.." for his to be ready.......

Don't know maybe we will get lucky and they will use the new 160 MHz A/D??

Yep, he said he some done, but he won't take orders until the software is done....
Gotta like some guy's "... a few days..."  ...  that was over 2 weeks ago....
(I know it was in response to your query..)


As for the options....
The oscope/spectrum analyzer would be handy...
I belive the unit for HPSDR and QS1R is indeed the same unit....
At least, The HPSDR unit is being designed to operate with Mercury, and VERB...



Well, I don't know.... I get an uncomfortable feeling from the HPSDR group...
I just do not like email lists... but see no other source of current info.....
The taking orders with money months in advance, well... mixed feelings.
No  warranty on the units.... ... eeek.


I don't know that I need to spend that much on a receiver anyway....
But when handy features like that get added, along with RX coverage to 60mhz...
Makes it a bit more attractive....

I had the SDR-IQ....  that was plenty fun... It seemed to have good front-end gain...
No real noticeable grunge or garbage...
And the 190khz of raw rf band recording was cool..
Of course with the QS1R... you'll be able to record up to 4mhz!...eventually.

Oh I understand the concept... just not completely comfortable with it... that's all.

The problem with the email reflector is... if you don't start gathering the emails at the beginning of the project.. the only way to access "old" information, is to ask a question again, and hope someone will answer....

With the online usergroups, you can go back and read all the already asked Q&As.

As far as I can tell from HPSDR, they say no warranty... but if they have spare boards, they MAY do an exchange at their discretion .


Not really complaining about they way they do it... it is supposed to be a group effort type of project.... not really just a commercial product.....

TAPR delivered over 300 sets of J/O/A modules and I don't know of a single person with quality issues. All modules are tested and sealed in ESD bags. The Quality is near mil as far as the build, test and ship.
The risk in in handling so if you are not used to dealing with this stuff I suggest you learn first. FPGAs are very static (ESD) sensitive and you need to use a static strap.
Phil is a one man show so I'm sure he is up to his eyeballs trying to get things done.

Just paid for my QS1R VERB....
Should be shipping out to me on Monday.......

Now to sell off some things to cover the cost!

It is no longer an "option".... it now comes standard... and the price has gone up $50...

I'll take your Class-E rig.  :D
 
Seriously though, whatcha got?  PM me.

I emailed Phil yesterday and asked when I could order etc...
He emailed back this morning, and said I could order now, and he'd ship one out on Monday the 3rd....

I notice on his site, he changed the price etc, today....
So I'm sure he's working on it now...


He sent me his paypal address... so I used that...

Nope, he didn't mention the CD....

Doesn't bother me... the files are/will be there on his server...
Compiling is just a few mouse-clicks

And if it comes on a CD, ready to use...  bonus!

Actually Mack,
In Phil's response to you he said "I will not ship boards until the software is ready..."

So I have to assume the software is ready, or will be by the week -end.

Time will tell....

Enjoy the high, I got off easy. Doc said tooth is still sound and fixed it with composite.

Anyway true SDR is the new buzz word and it will be interesting to match the performance of my other receivers. I figure worse case they become great IF spectrum monitors. Heck even hanging off the 3280 a cool display.

 

Cool toy... that's true!

With the VERB, the maximum display will be 4mhz..

So, You can see all of the spectrum between say 1.8mhz, through 75 meters and through 60 meters!

Or all of 75, 60 and 40 meters all on one display.....

Or, all of 6meters...

OR, you can have more than one instance of the software running, and treat it as multiple receivers!

Of course, the antenna becomes the issue, and would naturally have to preform on a good range of frequencies.......


It'll be loads of fun, just in the visual display!

We'll see in a few days.......

I wonder how much computer horsepower will be required for all this shuck and jive. I'm pretty sure my 1 GHz machine will be done.

Computing horsepower is cheap these days, I just threw out a 2.2 GHz rig because I was tired of tripping over it and couldn't give the dinosaur away.  I upgraded to a 3.4 GHz CPU and 2GB of memory for $50 last year.

Yep, really need a dual-core machine to take full advantage....

Minimum systems for real performance are 2ghz +

Keep in mind that's if you only have one machine, and want to multitask...

For giggles This past summer... I watched a DVD, browsed the 'net, and recorded a 190khz chunk of 80 meters all at the same time with my SDR-IQ....

Well, I ran all the stuff... obviously didn't pay full attention to them all!  :-)

But there was no noticeable stutter, belches, or fa**s............

And this is "only" a  2.1ghz P4, with 500meg ram, and  480gb drives...

Besides.... if you goto the SVN there's a fully compiled installer there....
You don't need to have Visual C....

There is a new version up now.... I have it all installed.
"SDRMAXII"

http://qs1r-sdrmax.googlecode.com/svn/sdrmax-win/trunk/SDRMAXII/installer/


Fair warning... you need to have  .NET framework 2.0 on your machine to run it....

Gee Mack.... I was just typing up that reply so you'd see it...

Guess you found it somewhere....

Or, maybe you found it the same way I did!
through the new yahoo group!
Is that so?

That was me, by the way....

Took 3 hours to download the darn thing...

But, It is an update that I should have done a while ago apparently!

In about 3 weeks or so... I'll be on 2 way sat. high speed... I'm disgusted with super-slower-than-turd-rolling-uphill internet!

Well, I doubt very much he "forgot" to turn it on!

He may just be working out buglets...

I have no clue how many boards he has ready to go....
Also remember, he could be changing the clocks on some boards, since he decided to make that standard....

If you want to order one... just email him and ask when they'll be available...
Likely you'll get the same answer I did....

Who knows exactly what he's up to....
I'd like to think he's making sure everything is as ready to go as he can, before he has to start mailing them out!

Did you read the user's manual on how to install the software?

Well, so far the manual says nothing about needing to compile any code.........

This link was sent to me after I purchased.......

http://www.philcovington.com/qs1r_latest/

Yup it IS compiled with visual C....

The "setup file"  is compiled from the other files you see on the SVN.


Anyhow, nothing gonna happen much without the board hooked to the USB, and firmware loaded....



The ONLY file you need to download is the SETUP file. That's it.
(well yes, the manual and app notes...)

If you're downloading a bunch of files off the SVN or the other site.....
Then you're "on the wrong track..."

The 737kb setup prog. creates 3.59mb worth of files in the folder.


The server file that you say is only 4k on your machine.... mine (qs1rserver.exe) is 161kb


Anyhow... I'm not stressed at all.... still 4 or 5 days at least before the board even arrives!

It will be interesting to know any performance reports you guys have since the HPSDR vesion is a a few months away.

Just got an email notice that my QS1R has shipped.
So, in a couple of days or so, I should be able to fire it up!

oooooh , the excitement!

:-)

Yep, that's about right....

And then next week, when my motherboard and dual-core 2.8ghz processor, and 2 gig of ram show up...........


Looks like if your machine can take it, you can get up to 8mhz of spectral display!

yep, you can be looking at 160 through 30 meters all at once!

Now....where'd I put that wide-band antenna drawing............


Chances are, that even with the new computer toys, I'll only be able to see 4mhz at a time.... but we'll see..

Right now, the software only supports 192khz....

The upgrades to the software will include that upgrade, multiple receiver, band segment recording, etc.....


fun fun fun!!

The seperate TX board...functionally...good idea...

But, of course that makes it much more expensive!

Not planning on that myself....

I'll stick to the homebrew class-e for the TX.


I'll be doing something for a bandpass filter board..
The Spectrum analyzer board....depending on just what that will cover...


I STILL have 2 other SDR "kits" to build!

Maybe by then the slight case of "buyer's remorse" will subside...

I REALLY hope the dough rolled   will be worth it!

Frank,
I got this reply by email from Phil about this question.....



""A dual core is definitely recommended as well as a good video card to
offload the pandapter updates.

I am running it with a Dell Precision 380 (Pentium 4 dual core 3.4Ghz, 1GB, NVidia FX card) and
a HP Pavilion A6152 Quad Core with NVidia 8600 GT video card.
 
CPU usage is about 5-9% on the quad and 10-11% on the dual.

The main issue is the larger the panadapter, the more CPU power
required due to screen updates.""

Yipee!!

Got my QS1R in the mail a little while ago!!

Already fired up, and trying it out!

I will report back later...

Flex is so yesterday and overpriced.
Phil's HPSDR and QSR designs are the today.
Flex copied the HPSDR audio section and threw in a computer board for the 5K.

I was kinda surprised at a couple of the comments made today...
Especially from the pres of flex!

Listening to Brent, and Bob, and Wayne on 3.885 right now with the QS1R....

Neat stuff...


So far I believe it to be better than the SDR-IQ....

Definately needs the pre-amp/att board..

look out for the for the groupies. Say the wrong thing or ask the wrong question and you will receive some nasty email.

#239
The post just previous to Frank's.

It was aimed right at Phil.
I have a lot of respect for the guy and he got the ball going on HPSDR.
I am very critical of anything new and when I asked him some performance questions within a couple days I received some interesting screen shots of his display with two signals side by side coming out of the noise floor at an input level of plus 10 dBM. Then a second one with the levels jacked to plus 20 dBM showing the spurs coming out of the noise floor. The noise floor was up a bit as one would expect but the performance matched the data sheet for the A/D he is using so it was easy to buy. Another Company sent me a crock only a rice box driver would believe.
Phil gets no cash from HPSDR but he told me there was no advantage buying his product over HPSDR mercury except that it was all on one board. I thought that was pretty honest of him.
Still in the real world full of signals I think a good preselector is required. Perseus guys are seeing problems with strong local stations getting into the A/D. We will see. Perseus only has the 80 mHz A/D.

good job Mack,
I just read it. Maybe Phil will share the email he sent to me this morning which was most entertaining. I don't think I should.
 

As a Long Islander would say......yea

Gerald has posted an explanation, and an apology to the group....

His comment wasn't aimed at Phil...

It was addressed to someone else......
About trying to please hams I guess......

bull puckey

I will sign up for Alex as soon as the list is repaired. I need to check my stock and may have an enclosure.

I'm interested in what the noise floor does when a real strong signal comes in. Also what happens when there is a really a lot of signals coming in. I would like to see where it falls apart. Also how does it handle weak signals near the noise floor. I usually run two different receivers when my SDR set up is going to compare performance.
I won't share what I hear until you post your observations. 

 That date is the cabinet....


Anyway, I don't know why you're having problems installing the software...
It's only a couple mouse-clicks...

http://qs1r-sdrmax.googlecode.com/svn/sdrmax-win/trunk/SDRMAXII/installer/

click on the installer file with the latest date code....

Right now...   03062008


I'm not holding out on anything.... I can't say much about it untill the features I'm interest in are added....and the software is more complete.


(The usefulness at this point  is somewhere between a softrock, and an sdr-iq)

When I get a pre-amp/attenuator board with bandpass filters, and the software is good-to-go...
Then, I'll be able to comment.

Frank,
So far it looks like the noise floor stays consistent  even with a strong signal nearby.

Signals near the noise floor right now are lost.... the noise reduction etc, are not finished in the software yet....

On AM a strong station, with lots of modulation, causes "clicks and pops.."..
The AGC is key, and I was able to listen to Steve QIX this morning, after I fiddled with the AGC settings a bit....


If you tell me how to check what you want to know, I can give it a try, and let you know what I find out....

Like I say (and Phil has said) the software is getting more complete every day...
And I am confident that once all the features are implemented, It'll be a different tune altogether....

I can, if you want do some tests, and post screen-shots on my web-site....

I might even be able to make a recording somehow....
(That option is not in the software yet)

Ok Mack, I misread your post a few back about the software...

I don't know which emails you're refering to... may have been mine....

When you download a new installer file, you need to reinstall the .inf file...
Or at leats I did....


If the board had a pre-amp on it... I could put the "usefullness" scale up to an even plane with the IQ.


Since 90% of the features in an SDR are in the software ( go figure)  makes it difficult to give any real review!

Again Mack,

Really hard to judge right now,,,,

Though I will say the sdr-iq was pretty good....
But as I said.. IT had pre-amps in the front, so it picked out signals better than this does SO FAR... that'll change once Phil gets his board going... or I build something...

I have never owned a "good" receiver....

The rice-boxes are it....  Kenwood Rx is about the best I've heard...
The Icom R75 I have now is pretty good... but it has some dsp too...

So, right now I'd have to say the IQ and the qs1r ARE the best receivers I've owned.

Which since I'm comparing to rice-box receivers... it may not mean much!

I read and read.....

I STILL don't know the difference between the two!

obviously one costs $500 and the other over $1K


In some ways, I wish I still had the IQ...

At least be able to compare...........

Bruce,
My stock Racal RA6830 does better at the noise floor than the Flex hands down. I got the impression Alberto's software had a slight edge on the Racal detector. Mack I agree the 3280 has a good analog section but I didn't listen to anything near the noise floor
to form an opinion of the DSP demodulation. I would really like to hear any performance comments you have over time. comparing it to a R390A is a cool race.
The flex uses gates bloatwear and lots of it. Alberto's program is C code. heck you have to download about 60 meg of bloat for Flex to even run, while Alberto's .99 is about 800 k if I remember. The more you do the longer it takes even it you are paying homage to MS.

Well,
I don't think the Flex has much of anything in the front end... it is just a softrock on vitamins... (not steroids...just vitamins..)

I only downloaded MAYB 2 meg to run the Flex software...
Maybe I was already bloated....

I'm not real keen on Alberto's software...yet... but it's better than FFlex's power sdr...
(which I believe is written in C++) it's open source.. I can go back and look)


Mack, I don't think that was the difference on the IQ v 14...
I think it was a matter of a better (more expensive by far) IC that did the calculations and stream to the usb... and maybe a faster clock.
But, no matter.....


Oh, by the way, with my current computer... and the software package being what is is...
Recap on the puter...
2ghz pentium 4, 512 meg ram...and nothing special video card.....

Today I was on 3885... had 6 websites loading
and had a dvd playing AND was using the windoze sound recorder to record off the QS1R...

I heard no skips in the audio from the RX...

Thats with the current 192khz display bandwidth refreshing as fast as it will go (10ms)

So, not bad..

Monday or tues, I'll stuff the new Athlon 64 bit dual core and 2gig ram in the box..

By then the 1500khz bandwidth should be ready.

Then we'll have some fun..

No,
We decided long ago that low level RF and 100 watts of RF had no business near the digital section. That is why it is in a box with a control cable. The final will also be away from the back plane. I have a nice Raytheon 3 stage 100 watt strip out of a marine rig I modified to get to 10 meters. I plan to use that as my final. I also have a pile of ENI solid state stuff where I could do a lot of linear from 100 watts. There is also talk of a 600 watt final but the price was too high.
Did you notice the alex boards are exactly the same size as OSR1 and I bet it would fit in the Alex box???? Phil doesn't have much of a filter ahead of his set up. Sounds like a good shotgun wedding.

Especially if there's a floating ground...it gets real fun....

1.2, 2.5 and 3.3 volt logic don't have a lot of noise immunity so no good in one place

that is a large frame. to shuck and jive into a computer

I am still relatively new to Boat Anchors.  Does anyone have a picture of one of these?

I would agree.  I think an LCD automatically disqualifies any radio from the boat anchor category.  It looks like a nice rig though.

Well, wish I had something new to report on the QS1R..........
But, it's been rather quiet in the updated software arena.

Wish that an update would come along, to help quell the slight case of "buyer's remorse."

Lot of money to spend without yet knowing whether it was worthwhile!

Mack,
Maybe not today but if you look inside that 3280 you will see a quality of construction that could easily make the grade in the future. SDR is cool but a  good stand alone radio with a knob on it has appeal.

The best dead end I ran into was this cubic guy who works on Swan stuff telling me about this DEA guy in the know about Cubic stuff.... A year later the DEA guy contacts me looking for information. I have a couple CDR3150 modules and they are so well built I could easily reverse engineer them if I had the radio.
The 3280 block diagrams indicate they would also be easy to reverse engineer.
But, What happens when a PLD or prom goes bad...it quickly becomes a hanger queen. You have a very cool radio until it breaks. This is the risk you take being the first one to get one without paper floating around. I was in the same boat when I found my first RA6830. I had two partial units sitting in the basement for years. Then I got lucky and found the Racal guy. As a labor of love I must have brought a couple dozen units to life and did hot rod mods on a few of them.
The Cubic R3030 is another one that BAMA saved for me. Half the fun in owning this cool stuff is finding spares and docs.
 

Did I miss something?

Seems Mack, N4VGB, is "gone"?

All his posts are gone!

a couple pages back, it looks like I'm talking to myself.... (could happen..)

I wonder whats up?

Maybee the Mothership has returned...  has anyone seen Bill,  W3duq, lately???   klc

Most evenings on 3733 Khz @ 5 - 6 PM EDST !!!  Bill is alive and well...

Boy,
My case of "buyer's remorse" is really taking it's toll on me....

Not because of how the QS1R VERB works, or the software...

Just that it was really silly of me to spend that much $$ on an RX......
(really dumb move on my part!)

May be the first one to show up on eBay!


I wish I'd learn to think these things though a little better...

That isn't a whole lot of money. Anything under a grand is cheap for a premium RX.....$850 for a board I could se your concern. That and a couple hundred bucks and I would swap you a nice stock RA6830 which is about my cost to build one. With all docs, firmware and source code.

IF it IS a "premium RX"

So far, I am unconvinced.....

What with no good software as of yet... and no BPF, pre-amp/attenuator board.
Makes it difficult to tell what it is going to do.

Right now, still using my Icom R75...

The QS1R is packed in it's box, (as it has been for almost a month..)...what I'll do with it remains to be seen.

If new software is released, and looks promising, I may keep it, and sell the Icom.

Or, the other way 'round....

Either way, one of them has to magically turn into $ in the account......

SDR-IQ, Perseus, QS1R bench measurements

http://www.spin-it.com/download/SDR_RX_measurements.pdf  (http://www.spin-it.com/download/SDR_RX_measurements.pdf)

The QS1R   VeRB  is getting better and better all the time!

Like the man said "A new radio is just a download away..."

Now can view up to 2000khz of band at a time on the display.

Cool new GUI interface.

Averages about 40mb of ram usage, I haven't checked the cpu load, but it is minimal.

I've had a few emails with Marco and you will notice it will take about 140 dB of dynamic range to really compete with the Premium RX of today. I'm chomping at the bit to get my Mercury. I hope Phil takes a close look at this month's QEX preselector article then review the schematic of the cubic unit I sent him which is much more strapping.  The preselector is the key for now. Very cool stuff.
Toss Flex on the scrap heap, so yesterday.

I posted the QEX preselector author's weblink on the QS1R group...

Also emailed the fellow to see if kits would be available..
He said no, I guess he's worried people won't be able to adjust the filters right.
He didn't give a price yet either...

Supposedly Phil will have the boards for his front end available in 6-8 weeks...
HE hasn't given a price yet either!

I hope it's not too much..$$
The unit will REALLY benefit... though it's not horrible now!

So, how about a 10 megahertz wide panadapter?

See here:

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm111/kf1z/capture_06052008_194752.jpg (http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm111/kf1z/capture_06052008_194752.jpg)


Oh, gee not wide enough?  You want MORE you say?

Well, check this out!
(not a lot to see most of the display just shows computer or powersupply noise I have to get rid of)
But still........

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm111/kf1z/capture_06052008_194852.jpg (http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm111/kf1z/capture_06052008_194852.jpg)

The GUI, filters, etc of the QS1R are getting better almost every day....

Changes in the fpga code have brought the noise floor down over 10db in the past week.

This is getting to be a really COOL toy!

Can't wait for Mercury but my Exciter board arrived Saturday and the software was posted last night. Hope to be making Rf soon. Hopefully Phil will modify his interface to talk to HPSDR.

Phil isn't writing the interface anymore... well not the GUI anyway...

An excited "user" has been doing that lately. (Cathy, from the UK)

Phil is still doing the server and related files (FPGA code etc.)

Been looking at Phil Covington's website; sure is one heck of a nice package.

Seems like for awhile there you were getting very significant improvements, almost weekly.

Would you now recommend Phil's board now vs., say, the SDR-IQ?

Had an electronics course in college using complex numbers, etc. in the '60's but did not include quadrature analog splitting and processing.  Read a ton lately thanks to the references and have learned a lot.

Thanks for fleshing out a very informative thread.

Well, that's a tough question....

I owned the sdr-iq, as you gathered from the thread....

The major drawback right now, is the QS1R does NOT have a band-pass filter/preamp/atten board...

The IQ it's built-in.

BUT... the IQ is good to 30mhz... the QS1R is good to 60mhz, and also can be used in undersampling apps to 300ish mhz.


The Spectraview software allows for recording of up to 190khz of RAW RF data (or audio)

Right at the moment, this is not implemented in SDRMAXII for QS1R.
(software changes nearly daily)

At this moment SDRMAXII allows  50mhz panadapted bandwidth!! (neat tool)

That is even greater than the SDR-14.


So....
I would reccomend the QS1R over the SDR-IQ or SDR-14....
With the pre-conception that it WILL be better than either of those in the near future...

I suspect (don't know for sure..) that all the bells and whistles that were planned for the SDR-IQ/14 are already implemented....


You could also follow some of the discussions on the yahoo group....

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/qs1r/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/qs1r/)

Bruce


PS
Phil has, with the help of Alberto (I2phd?) added support for Winrad software with QS1R.... preliminary still (there's 2 of us that haven't been able to run it yet...)

Very interesting.
Yes, I was perusing Alberto's winrad site and followed the development from 192khz soundcards to direct usb2 porting.   Also the yahoo group..... "8 of us have gotten it to work, sort of... "  What fun.

Your comments are very helpful.  This is going to be challanging.  Not wishing to dedicate ever more expensive and faster computers to my computer junkque museum, I'm looking into stand alone SDR's too.  Lots of neat stuff appearing out there.

But for some reason Phil's site seems to be the most edgy, heh, heh.  I don't know why, but I'm partial to stuff from Ohio State.  Years ago I toured there when they were running an experiment approaching absolute zero by the method of nuclear magnetic resonance of paramagnetic salts.  I remember picking up a board (about the only thing I was immediately familiar with) and one of the techs said, "yeah, thats a power supply, very dirty...."  Boy was I impressed; that's the world I wanted to enter.   .. "dirty power supplies" no less.

Rick,
Just in case you're worried about having to have a super computer to run QS1R...

You don't need one!

The QS1R is NOT a veracious cpu/memory eater...

Most of the work is handled by the Cyclone III Fpga on the board.

I run a AMD 64 Athlon x2 , 2.7ghz  dual core proccessor, and 2gb ram.
(with windows xp SP3)

And the memory usage is normally around 47mb, and cpu load around 15-20%


I think there are folks using 1ghz, single core machines and they work fine.

The processing is much different than things like the Flexradio (soundcard based).


I didn't check cpu/ram load while running the 50mhz  BW sample rate, but I am ALWAYS running internet and other apps at the same time ( only have the one 'puter)


(Eventually the QS1R will be able to run "stand alone")



Anyway, I thought I'd add that info.....


Bruce

Thanks Bruce, yeah it looks like a 1 gig machine is adequate if'n your running all that stuff at once on your maching. I think you mentioned most of that to someone in an earlier reply on this thread.  Phil's SDR board seems to have way more bang for the buck in not only the ADC specs but FPGA performance and from your remarks and the yahoo thread his and Cathy's software is fast catching up.

Sat in the sun y'day, and read thoroughly Richard Lyon's "Quad. Signals, Complex, But Not Complicated."  Not only was it well written but clarified a lot of the math I'd had some time ago. The diagrams were excellent.

 Believe it or not the first problem in chapter two, "Alternating Current Circuit Analysis" of my old electronics text is, "Prove that e^ja = cos a + j sin a," where a is the angle of the vector.  Well Richard's paper brought all that back with a crash, thence leading into quadrature E "very elegantly."

Hey, I see they call vectors, "phasors" these days ; carry over from "Star Wars?"... just kidding.

I sure don't want to go the appliance route to SDR's.  Many, of course, are awaiting development; there is a valid market there, but I think you learn a lot more with a 'component,' build it and understand it approach. 

Unfortunately, it sounds like a lot of the learning curve hangs up on the same old PC thing though.. .conflicitng drivers, interfaces, hanging operating systems, etc. Too bad but that's the world of software denizens.  I've always been more of a hardware guy.  "Computer Smyth" was my bag...; it got superceeded, of course by the blizzard of post 68000 technology.

all SDR configurations are limited by the preselector performance. Need about 40 db more  dynamic range to get past it. Phil makes The best so far.

Yeah, your right. An outstanding product.
Finally soaked up Wepman and Hoffman's "RF and IF Digitization...", the one that HUZZ said was somewhat dated.  It clarified stuff from a more practical standpoint.
 I've requested to join the Yahoo group and am seriously considering buying Phil's board.  Curious like you to see what his preselector board's going to look like - and cost too, of course.

Took the plunge Bruce.
 - Phil's Board's on order.
Sounds like the software's improving by orders of magnitude into a very fine SDR.

For starters, I'll lash up some 500kc bandpass filters for 160, 80 and 40.  Shouldn't take much at rcvr. power levels.

Hey, even a "zeroth" order LC circuit, somewhat single signal couldn't hurt to play with.

3's,
Rick

Rick...  Cool, I think you'll like it....

Don't know if you realize yet, or not....

Phil HAS NOT come up with a way to mute the thing yet!
(I mean for use with a transmitter...)

I asked him about it, and he's trying to come up with a good way to do it..

Right now, I'm just using the normal relay at the RX, and using the "mute" button in the software... so, 2-switch operation for now...


I may stick a relay at the soundcard output to make for 1 switch op.



I still haven't figured out how Phil didn't design that into the board...>?

Oh well.... one simple shortcoming...



BTW, today I tried to use my Icom R-75, which I WAS pretty happy with...

In QSO with Steve..QIX, and a couple of others... Nick, kg2ir, Terry PFY etc...

And I couldn't stand the audio!!!

I HAD to switch back to the QS1R, before my ears started to bleed...


The QS1R is now FAR superior to the Icom R-75....


Bruce g

Bruce I was making 30 khz wide audio on AM with Penny yesterday. BTW Today HPSDR Phil told us about the new A/D converters coming out with even better performance. He also said his exciter is running.

He hasn't mentioned the exciter for quite a while on the qs1r group....
Then only said "It is planned..."

The last time frame he gave on the filter/pre-amp board expires in the next week or so.. but no news on that yet either..

I suspect that things are moving a little slower than he hoped...



Cool on Penny.... strap a quick and dirty 10 watt leenear on it... and I bet I'd be able to work you ... 
Might take a whole hour to build...

500mw probly won't quite make it.

Frank,
Just went to hpsdr list archives and found Phil's posts that you referenced...

Interesting...

He mentions recording his I/Q files to replay through his exciter...


The I/Q recording/playback feature is supposed to be added to the software he releases, but we haven't seen it yet....


All in time I suppose..........

I plan to get on tonight on 160 with a local. I have a number of different amplifier strips so it will just be a matter of time before I increase power.
Not radio time of the year for me.

First transmission on 160 went across the yard to the other antenna but didn't make it to w1cki last nithe too much static.

a new record !

-transpasture communications no less.  ;D

Yeah, 160's pretty much static land for the next three or four months.  This fall when the great, stalled high's dominate the east we'll be sitting pretty again.

Getting excited waiting for the arrival of Phil's board.

Has Phil abandoned HPSDR altogether or is he still working with the group? 

Phil has a regular post at HPSDR.

Yet another SDR receiver -

http://www.ssbusa.com/perseus.html

That one has been around for about a year and came out of Italy. Also a nice radio but has the earlier 80 MS A/D. They are also HPSDR members.

Man, so many SDR's out there.  I just found a couple more projects I haven't heard of yet.

Here's one: The WonderRadio kit - http://www.sdrtec.com/index.htm

Another soundcard based SDR.
(also uses the parrallel port for control.?)

Souncard based SDR is old technology, and is limited.... although interesting, and inexpensive.
(provided you already have a GOOD souncard, and relatively fast computer)

But, at $480... throw that into a leenear, and you'd have an "about as good as a flex" transciever.

Over all, not a bad deal really...


There are dozens of SDR projects out there....
Many of them will rank somewhere between the softrock, and the Flex.
Lots are kits.... yes almost all are SMD.

Some, like the "DDS Controller"  can be used as a reciever, or as a DDS... spectrum analyzer etc.
I bought, and built this one last year... cool kit! (total cost about $175.)
http://wb6dhw.com/AD995x.html (http://wb6dhw.com/AD995x.html)
(I believe there are more updated projects now too...)
I am using it as a frequency source mainly... 0 to almost 200mhz...
All controlled by the 'puter, over the usb port.


Lots of neat stuff out there... I have either built or bought 9 different SDRs.
Some really really cheap (softrock), some not so much (QS1R)...
3 were "transcievers".
All fun and/or usefull in their own way.


The key is to start relatively small and inexpensive... then decide where to go from there....

I was really turned off by HAVING to have a computer to have radio....
But now... with my Icom R-75 on ebay (last analog RX I own)......
I don't see turning back..   I'm hooked!

Should have bought this when you offered it to me months ago. :D

I may end up with a QS1R yet.. also leaning towards HPSDR but I dunno.

If I was to start over I would go with QS1R and cut all ties to Flex.
HPSDR is well monitored by Flex to mine new products. It is a love hate because everyone used flex software. The Flex people fed me some performance BS years ago that left a bad taste.

I'd say it's different technology, not necessarily old. The upside of using a soundcard and PC to do the A/D and DSP is that you get new technology at the rate of the PC industry - every 12 months or so. You are not likely to get that sort up technology update rate when your SDR is based on a proprietetary or specialized A/D front end and specialized DSP. Additionally, there are far less people available to write software for such hardware, as opposed to the more generalized PC hardware.

So, as in any engineering exercise, there are tradeoffs. New, old, better, worse and similar terms don't always fully describe the situation. A look at the over all system and the various tradeoffs relative to the end user's requirements are what is really important.

I'm wondering why no one has harnessed the incredible processing power of the PC video cards for SDR work. Although these cards are designed for video, many have high speed A/D, vast and fast memory and incredible processing power (the high end cards are almost super computers in there own right). Maybe it's just too hard to make them work with non-video signals.

Ok, I'll go along with some of that....

Though as far as SDR in general is concerned, soundcard based DSP is considered to be an older generation than direct sampling A/D. (such as HPSDR, QS1R etc).

The "older" generations still have their place, and aren't going away anytime soon however.(For the exact reasons you mention).

Performance wise though... they just can't keep up with the newer generations.




As far as the PC video cards go....
My assumption would be the newer cards are all proprietary code (in firmware on board), and not customizable. At least not easily enough to be easily accesable to the masses.

It's still on ebay!
The prices have dropped on them recently, I'm already going to take a good hit on the price I get for it...
Oh well.... that's used equipment for ya!

Actually, NVIDIA and ATI are both embracing distributive computing.  ATI is working closely with some of the distributive computing folks who are working on protein folding.  I have a high-end gaming card on one of my boxen that protein folds via the GPU when idle. 

http://folding.stanford.edu/

- JT

I rather doubt a direct sampled system will outperform a soundcard based system with a good front-end/converter, especially at HF.

Well, doubt away.....

But I know I'll never go back!

Back to what? Are you saying you previously had a soundcard based system with a good front-end?

Yes,
Of course, this all depends on how YOU define "good front-end"

Pre-amp, BPF, mixer, QSD...?

Obviously, depending on how each of us define "good", we'll come up with a different answer.

====

I might also add that when I talk about direct sampling, I of course mean digitizing either "at the antenna", OR after BPF and pre-amp. (or attenuator)....
But NO mixing or detecting BEFORE digitizing.

Steve,
I'll let you know when Mercury shows up. I do have a good front end ahead of a QSD. Still when conditions are bad my stock RA6830 digs signals out of the noise better than the QSD plus software. We will see what the future brings.

I finally got around to building a Softrock receiver.

Mine is a 455 kHz Softrock Lite V6.2, and I'm using it in conjunction with Power SDR software.

I highly recommend these little units as a very-low-cost way to get into i.f. - based SDR.

What is particularly fun, for me, is using the Power SDR application to demodulate (AM, synchronous AM, etc) from the I and Q outputs of the Softrock receiver.

You do, of course, need a fine-tip soldering pencil, steady hands, and decent eyesight and/or a microscope to assemble the tiny board and its surface mount capacitors and IC's. Also, the toroidal inductor and the toroidal transformer are a bit of a challenge (e.g., 89 turns of #30 wire on a core about the size of a Cheerio).

For those who prefer not to build the kit themselves... there are kit assembly services available at very low cost.

Contact

Tony Parks, KB9YIG
1344 E 750 N
Springport, IN 47386


Best regards
Stu

Stu

Easier to wind inductor and transformer from a previous thread...

http://amfone.net/Amforum/index.php?topic=13686.100 (http://amfone.net/Amforum/index.php?topic=13686.100)

Jay

Thanks....

Stu

So here are a couple of "provocative" questions:

Consider the case in which you are using the 455kHz i.f. output of your receiver... after the i.f. filter...

Do you really need to include a bandpass filter (a toroidal inductor in series with a capacitor + toroidal transformer with a capacitor across the primary) on the Softrock-lite board?

Putting aside the unbeatable bargain price of the Softrock kit... is there an "unmet market need" for an old buzzard's version of the kit that uses regular (non-surface mount) components... and which would work just fine at 455 kHz  :)

Best regards
Stu

Could well be that you don't need a BPF there Stu.....
Remember it was designed as a stand-alone RX... Just happens to have found an interesting use as a panadapter/ IF adapter........

The transformer may be a different story, but there's probably a way around that too....



There are some kits out there that are basically the same design that are non-surface mount jobbies.
(but the softrock is still the cheapest and most basic design)


I've found that most people find the toroid winding more of a PIA than the SMDs though.

But, ya never know....
I've built about 26 of those now, of different flavors for folks that didn't want to try it...
Either because of the SMDs, the toroids... or just plain lack of soldering skills/equipment.

I have a board layout *somewhere* on a disk that I laid out about 4 or 5 years ago using all LARGE parts.... but never did anything with it.

I would say not, just an impedance matching network. Caveat: I haven't actually tried this, but given the amount of filtering in most RX IF's, it should work.

The folks writing the software for the QS1R, have switched to C++, and using openGL for the display...

We now have FULL dual recieve... (It is still a test run..)

But really cool.... and it didn't cost an extra $600.

man I'm chomping at the bit to jam a pair of 8640Bs into the software and see what happens. Even with my new computer running at 10% horsepower the stock RA 6830 digs signals out of the 160M noise better than SDR.
Displays are cool but is there real performance?
Mercury has been in test a month with no reports yet.

I think it does very well as is Frank....
But, I don't have any other RX (especially high-end stuff) to compare it to.

I still believe the band-pass filter/ preamp board will make a big difference, but probably mostly on 40 meters and up.

I haven't been able to squeeze out of Phil when that's coming along.....
He had said about 4 months ago, that it would be "6 to 8 weeks.."
But we haven't heard anything since...

The computer horsepower requirements just took a big dive....
But you need a good graphics card to take the slack.

Most of the CPU load has been in the display... now going to openGL....

With the above screenshot, my CPU load was 20%.

AMD x62 dual proc.   2.7 ghz w/2gig ram.

Yeah, I'm waiting for a few more GUI and server variants to gell before springing for an updated computer.
Thinking a Mac if native code will eventually run Phils stuff. Computer selection might depend on what video cards can do with musoft. Tired of waiting for bloated musoft and all the TSR's to load everytime I turn the damn thing on.

Downloaded Phil's ver. 98.  Will be very nice when the dual rcv' stuff, etc. is incorporated in MaxII.

Operating:
Running the QS1R from the TR-7s, aux. rcvr. output after severing the '7's internal jumper between, Aux. rcv'r and ext. antenna.  Running the QS1R's hardware mute from the '7's T/R relay - ext. amp. trigger line via the unused aux. RCA jack on back.  Anyway using the TR-7s T/R circuitry gets you a built-in low pass filter before the QS1R.  Built up a BC blocking H P filter (simple 7 pole. using T-50-2 toroids and micas. )

It now seems so archaic when you can't see what's going on in the whole band, instantly go to strongest signals, see what type of modulation each sig. has before switching, tracking swishers, warbling psuedo signals, etc. Some cool stuff outside the hambands too.

Over the years I've been pretty well convinced that content has it over architecture, very similar to TV where programming still (sometimes barely) beats the HDTV delivery.  But architecture is coming on strong.  Way fun and very addictive, this SDR stuff.  Hard not to enjoy it just for SDR's sake.

After Phil and Cathy's code's incorporates most of the features we want along with a companion TX, this is going to be one hot SDR.  I too wish Phil would posit a progress time line or two. Check out the Yahoo board for latest. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/qs1r/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/qs1r/)

Oh, meant to add this message from Phil Covington.

*****************************************************************
"Hello all,

We are experimenting with dual receive capabilities in QS1R as can
been seen in Cathy's latest 2 panadapter GUI test. You can download
it from the files section of the QS1R Group. Dual receive is also
working in the new C++/Qt server as well as FMW mode which sounds very
nice.

So, unlike other SDRs and IF SDR radios where adding a second RX costs
$600+ or the initial price of the dual RX capable radio is >$5000, you
will be getting two independent (in mode, frequency (0-60 MHz),
settings, etc...) receiver capability in QS1R for an additional cost
of $0.

If we can figure out how to deal with all the receivers, two receivers
is certainly not the limit for future versions.

Regards,
--
Phil Covington
Software Radio Laboratory LLC
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.srl-llc.com "
**********************************************************

He means two or more concurrently running receivers. Already has instant selection of up to six instantly selectable freq's, any band, for working cross band, split, etc.

What waiting?

30 seconds after I hit the power switch, mine is ready to go (win XP).

Less than a minute to be listening to the RX.

Settings and file system cleaning can go a long way....

 ;D

All this stuff is very cool but I prefer to see real test data. We will get there in time but as one who has had many RX design failures you can't improve unless you have real performance data.
The final test is when you have two receivers hanging off a splitter on the same antenna trying to dig out the tuff ones. So far SDR loses that race in my shack. Also having both configurations I get to enjoy the best of both.
The processing delay is a trip though. I listen to SDR audio when conditions are good but go back to analog when the conditions are poor.
 

Probably all very true Frank....

Tough having nothing to compare to.

I do know the audio quality was far better than anything else I've had... but there again, I've never owned any high-end gear... so probably not saying much.


If I knew what tests I could do with the scant equipment I have... I'd do it....


So far, I have at least been able to hear pretty much everyone in any given group that everyone else was hearing too...
Sometimes even been the only one that could hear certain people...

But of course, locations, conditions,  antennas etc are most likely the big part there.


I do not care to "try to dig anyone out.." unless it's someone coming into a qso...
I do not chase weak-signals intentionally.

So "Real performance" may not matter to me...
It's the audio quality , and noise elimination/filtering qualities that I get a kick out of.

Bruce, Frank,
ok on your comments and stuff.  Also we have to remember that Phil's board is general purpose.  It's being developed for ham rigs, test instruments, very broad band, low noise radio astronomy, moon-bounce, you name it.

Like Bruce, I'm betting that once any pre-amp, filtering, etc. ahead of the DDR is utilized, this will be one hot rig. - even after a -3db splitter to another single channel-restricted receiver. heh, heh.  Yes, comparison test specs are essential for many reasons but if it can hear 99% of what everything eles hears without filters, preamps or attenuators, and do this in a 60 Mhz broadband,
well !

Dumb as this might sound; By the same token if you don't have a QS1R to compare with other receivers then you can only guess on that side too.  Specs. should be forthcoming. 

Oh yeah, my computer.  - File clearing and stuff still doesn't help a 1.7Gig, low mem. computer loaded with (like Derb says) wifey's programs. Gotta get a new one, dedicated to me.  ;D

I've been thinking.. uh,oh.  There's so much QS1R open code out there now along with several boards that Phil's board is not going to go away.  Up to him, his biz model, etc. to see how fast he wants to ramp up, not get bought out prematurely, what application gets developed, gets utilized first, etc.
I'm sold and just think it's really exciting.

It's nice that this thread was resurrected. I guess some folks are reporting here with their plus and minus views for the softrock lite boards they built, or asked someone with toroid winding patience to get their board up and running.

I finally have a SoftRock Lite v6.2 running (thanks Stu) in a Dell with the Flex software and at times I see 30% CPU. No hiccups in the audio. Sound card is a SoundBlaster Live card @48khz sample. One of those 'unsupported cards'

There's a lot of buttons to push and many flavors to choose from.
I'm very impressed with SAM (Synch detector mode) This $15 project saved me $600.00. I do not have to buy an expensive SE-3. It virtually eliminates all of the selective fading distortion from music programing on short-wave.

It has turned my R390A into a plastic ($8000) radio............ha!

Fred

Ok Fred... good deal...

I wonder if you're using the Power-SDR software right from Flex-radio site?

Or, are you using the Power-SDR that was re-written with the softrock in mind?
(available at the softrock group files section)


The other one to try is the WinRad software... that Sync-AM is much better than Power-SDR

The software I got was from the Flex web site. They offered the SoftRock board in their setup screen.
I can try Winrad and listen to any differences. This seems to be the nice thing about these "new radios". The SAM (in Flex) has a slightly different audio characteristic, restricting the high freqs a little more than straight through AM in the 12khz bandwidth mode.
Good stuff

Fred

Out of curiousity, I tried unplugging the I output or the Q output, of my SoftRock-like mixer, from the stereo input to my sound card. In theory, all of the information needed for the PowerSDR application is in either one... so it should work with just one.

I tried this on AM, synchronous AM, and also listening to a sideband signal on LSB.

In all cases, I could not hear any affect of unplugging either I or Q... nor could I see any affect on the display. Everything continued to work fine with just I or Q

I'm using my mixer board with the i.f. output of my receiver.

Question: does anyone know what functions of the SoftRock + Power SDR actually require both I and Q?

Stu

P.S. As I think about this, I believe that the only purpose of using both I and Q is to reject "image band" signals. For example, if you mix a 444 kHz local oscillator with a 455 kHz i.f you get a mixing product at 11 kHz. However, if your receiver were putting out anything at around 433 kHz, then that would also appear as a mixing product at the output of the SoftRock (or equivalent). For i.f. applications, your receiver already has a sharp filter that removes the image band (i.e. signals that are 22kHz away from the signal you are trying to listen to. So... for i.f. applications, you do not need I and Q.

A simple mixer that down-converts your i.f. 11 kHz is cheap and easy to build:

http://mysite.verizon.net/sdp2/id12.html

Stu,

As I understand it....

The two signals are In phase, and Quadrature phase.

In one complete cycle the "I"  is 0 to 90 degrees, and 180 to 270 degrees,
And the "Q" would be 90 to 180, and 270 to 360 degrees.


But, what's actually happening is,  instead of the signal being chopped into 4 segments, as that would lead you to believe...

Each line ( I and Q) carries ALL the RF information... but the Q is simply being shifted by 90 degrees.

However,  if you have a "closed" system, as in and IF detector, you do not need both signals, for the reasons you gave.


BUT,
To look at say 190khz of band on your display, you need a soundcard that can sample at 96khz.

And THAT"s where the I/Q signals are used to seperate (or cancell out) the image signals, that appear on either side of the center frequency.
Because all the RF information is in each channel (I/Q or L/R) but one appears inverted.

The latest issue of electronic design has the theme of "Wireless Everywhere".  It has an article (19439) by Louis Frenzel W5LEF, a regular author, entitled "SDR Transforms Amateur Radio.  The printed magazine article is 6 pages and features the FlexRadio FLEX-5000A.  Other makes of SDR are included also.

There is a side article (19438) also, 2/3 of a page, where Lou interviewed Dave Sumner at the Dayton Hamvention.

The online version of the article can be found at:

http://electronicdesign.com/Articles/ArticleID/19439/19439.html

I had a nice road-test time with soft rock lite board and Winrad and the Flex software. And the winner  (for me) is the flex software. Lot's of nice features for variable bandwidths and the SAM (synch detector) is so nice in the Flex. I was not impressed with the slow weird lock-in time of the Winrad in the synch detector mode. And the audio quality was not as good as the Flex.
The Flex could be used for AM QSO's as it will lock in faster than Winrad.
I'm a happy camper....don't have to spend no $600 for an SE-3...........ha!!

Fred

slower the lock, (lower the corner) the cleaner the audio.

Very interesting. The SW must not be using a synchronous detection mode requiring I&Q (possibly squaring or a narrow filter)?

I think you can download the source code if you want to see how it is done.

You're assuming I would understand it!!!

Steve

If the rf (or if) signal had been "homodyned"... i.e. heterodyned to baseband...by the SoftRock... then you would need both I & Q for demodulation. Actually, some would argue that, to avoid conmfusion, the use of the terminology "I" and "Q" should be reserved for homodyning.

Since the "I" and "Q" output signals from these mixers are not at baseband... they both contain all of the information required for such things as synchronous AM demodulation.

As a way to see this... consider a typical double conversion receiver:

You start out at some r.f. frequency. You mix that using a crystal local oscillator to some i.f. frequency (e.g., 10.7 MHz). Then you mix that using a variable frequency local oscillator to a second i.f. frequency (e.g., 455 kHz). Finally, you demodulate using whatever methodology you wish (including coherent demodulation methods,if you wish). 

In all of these mixing operations, in a conventional double conversion receiver, you don't attempt to obtain what Flex and others would call "I" and "Q" i.f. signals. This is because shifting the center frequency with a mixer doesn't remove any information provided you use a filter in front of the mixer, in each stage (if necessary), to remove any "image band" signals that are present. For example, if you are going to mix a 28.8 MHz signal down to 10.7 MHz in the first mixer... by using an 18.1 MHz local oscillator... you have to take some steps to ensure that there are no signals centered at 7.4 MHz (i.e. 10.7 MHz below the local oscillator frequency) entering the mixer along with the desired signals centered at 28.8 MHz (i.e., 10.7 MHz above the local oscillator frequency).

The way the SoftRock design removes signals that might be in the image band is by creating the needed filtering function using the phasing method... the same way a phasing type SSB transmitter removes one of the sidebands. If you already have sufficient filtering in front of the SoftRock to remove any image band signals... then you don't need the "I" & "Q" signals.

Stu

But you do for many forms of synchronous detection. My question was how does the PowerSDR process the I only channel to accomplish synchronous detection, since they are obviously not using the already existing I&Q from the QSD?

Steve

I assume that they just use DSP to, in effect, extract I and Q from the single output of the i.f. => 11 kHz mixer.

Mathematically

If you multiply (using DSP to do it) the single output of the i.f. => 11kHz mixer by cos (2pi x11,000 x t) you get the baseband "I" signal.

If you multiply (using DSP to do it) the same single output of the i.f. => 11kHz mixer by sin (2pi x 10,000 x t) you get the baseband "Q" signal.

Stu

Probably. Seems silly to waste processing power to do this when you already have incoming I&Q signals. I'm guessing very little processing power is required. Highly optimized coding for the Hilbert Transform has been around for a long time.

Don't you need the I/Q to cancel the low frequency image? My TCI 8174 takes the final IF and generates I/Q in the DSP before it demodulates.
I think the Cubic receivers like the 3150 and 3280 do the same thing.
I would think if the DSP has enough horsepower you don't need I/Q but remember this all started using the stereo sound card as the interface.

If you don't have a filter in place to remove any image band signals prior to the mixer (SoftRock or equivalent) then it will be mathematically impossible to remove image band signals after the mixing process unless you have both I and Q outputs from the mixer.

On the other hand, if you do have a filter in place to remove any image band signals prior to the mixer (SoftRock or equivalent) than only 1 output from the SoftRock is needed.

Deriving the I and Q outputs from either output of the Softrock (for the case where there are no image band signals to worry about) is a lot less processing intensive than the other tasks that the DSP has to perform (e.g. as you mentioned Steve: the Hilbert transform)

Electrons don't get tired... so the issue of whether something seems like a waste of processing power is only important if it pushes the required processing beyond the capabilities of a particular processor.

As an aside:

Each of what we call the "I" and "Q" outputs of a SoftRock (or equivalent) board contains both of the baseband I and Q components:

The input to the Softrock (or equivalent) board (not including image band signals) is:

s(t) = { I(t) cos ( 2 x pi x f x t) } + { Q(t) sin (2 x pi x f x t) }

where I(t) and Q(t) are the baseband I and Q components.

The pair of outputs from the SoftRock (or equivalent) board (not including image band signals) is:

x(t) = what we call the I output of the SoftRock board = { I(t) cos ( 2 x pi x 11000 x t) } + { Q(t) sin (2 x pi x 11000 x t) }

y(t) = what we call the Q output of the SoftRock board = { I(t) sin ( 2 x pi x 11000 x t) } + { Q(t) cos (2 x pi x 11000 x t) }

where I(t) and Q(t) are the baseband I and Q components.

Thus, you still have all of the "work" of extracting the baseband I and Q components from the SoftRock (or equivalent) board's output(s), x(t) and y(t)... whether you have both of them, or just one of them.

I believe.... based on the fact that unplugging one of the two inputs to the sound card has no affect (not even a click or a pop)... other then to reduce the reading on the S-meter by 6dB and the level of the displayed spectrum by 6dB... that the first thing that the PowerSDR algorithm does with the I and Q inputs is as follows (using DSP):

1. Apply the Hilbert transform to the Q input
2. Add the inputs together (after step 1) to cancel the image band... and to yield the equivalent of what you would get if there were no image band signals to start with, and you only had one of the SoftRock outputs to work with.
3. Proceed to perform the demodulation by extracting the baseband I and Q components from the result of step 2.

Best regards
Stu

What about the image created when you mix your IF with the local osc on the softrock?

Is that showing up on your display Stu.?

I assume you'd still be creating an image anyway...

stu,
If I remember the TCI/BR 8174 DSP block diagram this is exactly what they do with the single ended low frequency IF. I think they use a TI DSP running at 40 MHz clock.  The S Meter display is as accurate as my HP8640B step attenuator.

I'm not sure if I understand your question.... but perhaps this will help:

Incoming (to the SoftRock board) r.f or i.f. signals at frequencies that are in the band of frequencies that is 11 kHz +/- 11 kHz above the SoftRock local oscillator frequency will produce the desired outputs (display, demodulated audio, etc.) from the Power SDR software... regardless of whether you use both outputs from the SoftRock board, or just one of the outputs from the SoftRock board.

Incoming (to the SoftRock board) r.f. or i.f. signals at frequencies that are in the band of frequencies that is 11 kHz +/- 11 kHz below the SoftRock local oscillator frequency (usually called the "image band" of frequencies) will produce, in effect, interference that simply adds to (in the case of CW, SSB, AM, or SAM reception) the desired outputs (display, audio, etc.) from the PowerSDR software... unless you provide both outputs from the SoftRock board to your sound card.

If you use both outputs from the SoftRock board, then the normal/desired portions of both outputs will add (making the desired signals look 6dB larger); and the image band/undesired portions of both outputs will subtract (cancel)... making the image band signals go away. This is just a consequence of the way the mathematics works out.

If there are no incoming (to the SoftRock board) r.f. or i.f. signals within the image band of frequencies (i.e., because they have already been filtered out), then you don't need to use both outputs from the SoftRock board.

Stu

Interesting quadrature and detection discussion.

For a little eye candy and brief respite from technical burn-out, ;D here's a screen shot of some of Cathy's latest work from Phil's QS1R board showing two receivers, oscilloscope time & phase functions, various waterfalls, etc. 

Note that this is Cathy's test GUI/server combo display; not the "pretty print" SDRMaxII GUI normally used in a more polished version.

Also see the Yahoo group for further clarification and updates to Phil's SDR board and applications.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/qs1r/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/qs1r/)

This is rapidly becoming the SDR to have.  Buy one; get another for list ! You'll not be sorry and will be fully diversified !   8)

HPSDR Mercury just made the last board turn and will have the option to use the 170 MHz. A/D Phil's is a very nice RX but I would love to do some testing to see how it stacks up. Pretty display. I would think the only limit to receivers displayed is computer horsepower and DDC bandwidth.

Yeah Frank, this is great stuff.  Wot say... "bleeding edge?"
- great marriages of high speed ADC's and FPGA's.

As some have mentioned before I don't think Phil's ready for a/b comps. until he gets the pre-amp/bandpass filter/attn. board finished. 
But even so, the bare bones board is plenty sensitive enough on HF and with discrete or inf. variable very sharp filters.  It's so neat to see the whole HF spectrum up through 60Mhz in one glance... just pick a signal.

No where to go but up in SDR.  Fun times to be a' livin.'

After seeing spectrum, having instant picks, etc. I don't see how we can resist putting at least SoftRock equiv. detection on everything from an S-38 up through R-390's on the "low" end and going the full SDR route on the high end.  It's very addictive.  I'll bet YaeComWood won't hold off incorporating SDR for long or at least upgrading their TFT displays to match some of these fantastic GUI's.

....er, or at least until Russia, et.al. start up a hot war ;D
I still unplug 'em during storms.

Rick,
It is very hard to get a preselector tight enough to get the performance. I remember working on one that would do the job. It was used by the Navy and almost as large as a small fridge with a wip antenna. Most of the inductors were wound with 1/4 inch copper tubing.
This is also the reason TRF went to superhet about 75 years ago.
Look at your noise floor when there is static or lightning. The whole floor jumps up across the spectrum. Kinda hard to sort things out when the A/D is saturated for many samples.
An analog system seems to deal with it better...so far

Well I can see that reasoning. 
but if the noise floor jumps up and down noticably is that an artifact of the video display at say 30fps (*well ok, 15fps makes a movie*), or something else slowing the response time? - or is it real ADC's response or saturation?  There are already millivolt (h, maybe even volt) signals with wild mod. swings, overmods, harmonics, etc. from myrads of BC statons, SW beaters, 200kc wideband VLF,etc. operating simultaneously. All communications through real world equipment, even the 'data' itself takes a finite time for turn-around from/to the on/off state unless you have perfect square wave response 'to infinity.' 

Even analog filters no matter how wide "ring."  AVC takes time to recover on an analog rig if your using it in any real world application say long constant SSB.  ..or want to listen to a wide variety of AM signal strengths.  So yeah on VHF line of sight, perfectly low noise, unmolested amp/detection figures are nice.   ....

...well, sort of heading to an argument of some sort here in my muddy thinking land but maybe you can see the trend.  Galatic background is horrendous to any noise figure in HF even if everything else is perfectly quiet, no storms of anykind anywhere.  Phil's board for most unmodified applications has a cut-off just above the 6 mtr. band.  Intermod now, etc. that's another story.

So day-to-day usage is kind of what I was refering to for the QS1R, not absolute performance approaching Racals'...  (but it's getting close.)

Besides if I had a perfect, quantum receiver I wouldn't even need to post this.  You'd have it before I sent it.
 whoooo  ;D

QS1R on ebay.....

http://cgi.ebay.com/QS1R-Quicksilver-SDR-Software-Defined-Radio_W0QQitemZ320290760941QQihZ011QQcategoryZ4673QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD2VQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1638Q2em122

Hmmm,
Inevitable I guess;  A few hours left to accquire a neat radio.  Looks like by the time it makes it back to the states (if it does) it'll approach list or more what with duty again, shipping, final bid, etc.
It seems to have a British accent.  Curious what the serial number is?
Only one guy I've heard of thought of selling his and posted such on this board ;D

OH ! , I just found this on the Yahoo users group;

****************************************************************************
"Hi, I don't want to use this group as a marketplace but members of the
group may be interested in my QS1R that's for sale on eBay right now.
I just don't have time to play with radios right now so its got to
go! The listing ends tomorrow evening (UK). Email me privately if you
want to offer me a huge pile of cash for it!

I'll still be keeping up to date with the groups activities and I'll
probably buy another one in 6 months time! Many thanks to Cathy and
Phil on such a superb open source project.

Sat Aug 30, 2008 9:47 am

"radio_barn2000" <radiocurio@...>
radio_barn2000"
 Send Email
 

He didnt do too bad...
Went for $800

Interesting review of the Perseus in the December QST on pg 40.

I saw it. My check is in for Mercury which will be delivered in Jan.

Great Frank.
I haven't gotten my Dec. issue yet so looked up the review online.

Neat board, and has the LTC6400-20 (20db) preamp ahead of the LTC2208.  So I looked up the LTC6400-20 and the hook up is very simple. From the QST pix it looks like Mercury has a full set of filters.  I saw on the LTC6400 page that a compliment of LPF's were referenced.  They must be software controlled.
So I bet that's the lash up that Phil will use on his preselector/amp board.

One thing seems redundant or I don't understand the reasoning since I don't have the Atlas backplane, etc. though. There's a FPGA Altera Cyclone III chip on both the Mercury board and the Ozy board, both plugged into the Atlas.  Phil's has just one.  Is this for transmit capability via the Penelope board?

Sure like to see a pix of what you've lashed up so far; cabinet, etc.
Boy these things are fun. Did'ja see my "single" signal 5 ohm preselector/amp on Phil's yahoo board?

Rick,
I have not looked at Phil's board in a while. I did send him schematics of the tunable Cubic preselector. Bottom line the tighter the front end toe better chance you have to filter out the crud. I am in the process of wiring an interface board so my Racal will tune the Cubic preselector. I am very interested in doing testing on mercury when it arrives. Ozy is the communication interface to USB2. I'm sure this system has extra hardware not required for the stand alone RX. I hear there are FPGA software upgrades coming when Penny and Mercury live on Atlas.
Yes interesting times but the software pukes still have a way to go to beat a good old analog system. W1VD's data shows we have not really come that far in 40 years......just lighter to lug around.